A few years ago, I put a subpanel in my garage/shop. I had a black and
decker book with detailed photos. I'm certain I followed code, and
everything worked perfectly. I had a 220v breaker in the house panel,
and a 60amp subpanel in the garage with i think 6 breaker positions. I
feel very confident that I could do this again safely.

I recently moved. And I'm getting ready to do the same thing again for
the new house. The only thing I want to do differently is to have more
circuits. I want three 220v breakers for the dc, compressor, and
whatever tool is running. I also want at least two 110v lines, but
more like three or four: 1 for tools, and 1 for lights, also future
expansion just in case. In addition, I can't rule out the possability
of adding a huge tool. I can see getting a killer deal on a 3-phase
machine and putting in a rotary convertor for example. Or maybe
something with a 7.5hp or 10hp motor. So I want to be able to handle
higher currents just in case.

I just so happen to have a 100 amp panel. It looks a little different
from the other subpanel I had though. It looks like it's meant to be
the only panel in the house. My old one didn't have a 60amp breaker in
it. It relied on the breaker in the main panel, with the feed wires
going into screw terminals on the bus bar. This one has a 100 amp
breaker in it. It looks like I can't remove it. Am I missing
something?

How should I handle this? Ignore it and put, for example, a 60amp
breaker in the main panel and the right gauge wire for 60 amps? Or go
with a 100 amp breaker so that it matches the one in the subpanel
(assuming fat wire for 100 amps)? Or a different subpanel that has no
breaker?

I don't really need 100 amps. It also has a lot more positions than I
need (like double!). But at the borg, they have the little rinky dink
subpanel I have in the old house. Then the next size up is this 100
amp monster. Should I put in two of the smaller panels, sort of
daisy-chaining them? or run both subpanels back to the main? seems
silly.

any suggestions?

brian

Or go
with a 100 amp breaker so that it matches the one in the subpanel
(assuming fat wire for 100 amps)?

Choose this one. Leave the breaker there. If nothing else, it's a local
shutoff. Who knows you might need the addition juice some day, if not you
only have the additional cost of thicker wire.

I don't really need 100 amps. It also has a lot more positions than I
need (like double!).

yeah but.....

But at the borg, they have the little rinky dink
subpanel I have in the old house.

Do the 100.

In article .com, "brianlanning" wrote:
A few years ago, I put a subpanel in my garage/shop. I had a black and
decker book with detailed photos. I'm certain I followed code, and
everything worked perfectly. I had a 220v breaker in the house panel,
and a 60amp subpanel in the garage with i think 6 breaker positions. I
feel very confident that I could do this again safely.

Good so far... always glad to see someone who took the time to learn how to do
it right.

I recently moved. And I'm getting ready to do the same thing again for
the new house. The only thing I want to do differently is to have more
circuits. I want three 220v breakers for the dc, compressor, and
whatever tool is running. I also want at least two 110v lines, but
more like three or four: 1 for tools, and 1 for lights, also future
expansion just in case. In addition, I can't rule out the possability
of adding a huge tool. I can see getting a killer deal on a 3-phase
machine and putting in a rotary convertor for example. Or maybe
something with a 7.5hp or 10hp motor. So I want to be able to handle
higher currents just in case.

Yep. Good thinking.

I just so happen to have a 100 amp panel. It looks a little different
from the other subpanel I had though. It looks like it's meant to be
the only panel in the house. My old one didn't have a 60amp breaker in
it. It relied on the breaker in the main panel, with the feed wires
going into screw terminals on the bus bar. This one has a 100 amp
breaker in it. It looks like I can't remove it. Am I missing
something?

What you're missing is the notion that this is *exactly* the kind of panel you
want for a subpanel in your shop - in an emergency, if you want to kill all
the power in the shop RIGHT NOW, you have the disconnect right there at the
subpanel. You don't have to go back to the main.

How should I handle this? Ignore it and put, for example, a 60amp
breaker in the main panel and the right gauge wire for 60 amps? Or go
with a 100 amp breaker so that it matches the one in the subpanel
(assuming fat wire for 100 amps)? Or a different subpanel that has no
breaker?

Option 2 - go with a 100amp breaker in the main panel, and 100A-rated
conductors to feed the subpanel. You need *four* conductors: two hot, one
neutral, and one ground. In the subpanel, you must have separate neutral and
ground bus bars, and they must *not* be connected together. Note that
"connected together" also includes "connected to, and not insulated from, the
case of the panel" even if there is not wire connecting them directly.

(If the panel you have now does not have separate bars for neutral and
ground, don't worry - you can buy grounding bar kits at any home center or
major hardware store.)

Option 1 is ok, too, but you may find later that you want the extra power.
It doesn't take any more time to run wires for 100A than for 60, and doesn't
cost too much more, either. Likewise, the price difference between 60A and
100A breakers is not great.

Option 3 is IMO a non-starter: it's a needless expenditure to purchase
equipment that is *less* suited to the task than what you already have.

I don't really need 100 amps.

Not yet, anyway, not until you get that rotary phase converter. Then you
might, depending on how much else you have. :-)

It also has a lot more positions than I
need (like double!).

Extra capacity is a good thing.

But at the borg, they have the little rinky dink
subpanel I have in the old house. Then the next size up is this 100
amp monster.

See above. :-)

Should I put in two of the smaller panels, sort of
daisy-chaining them? or run both subpanels back to the main? seems
silly.

It *is* silly. :-) Go with the 100A panel you have.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Trimmed for brevity....

I just so happen to have a 100 amp panel. It looks a little different
from the other subpanel I had though. It looks like it's meant to be
the only panel in the house. My old one didn't have a 60amp breaker in
it. It relied on the breaker in the main panel, with the feed wires
going into screw terminals on the bus bar. This one has a 100 amp
breaker in it. It looks like I can't remove it. Am I missing
something?

What you're missing is the notion that this is *exactly* the kind of panel
you
want for a subpanel in your shop - in an emergency, if you want to kill
all
the power in the shop RIGHT NOW, you have the disconnect right there at
the
subpanel. You don't have to go back to the main.


Sounds good, except if the lights are fed from the subpanel.....

Even with a main lug subpanel w/o the breaker on the incoming feed you can
quickly kill all (or some) of the power by hitting the breakers.

I have a 60 amp main lug subpanel with 8 slots, 4 filled. I could kill all
the power only marginally faster if I had a main breaker. Regardless of the
setup, you have to recognize a problem, realize you need to kill the power,
run over to the panel, open the cover and reach up and switch the
breaker(s). I also have the option of just switching the circuits feeding
the receptacles and leaving the lights up or vice-versa (though I do have a
light on a separate circuit run directly from the main panel that I always
turn on).

My 2 cents....

Tim

Subject

Go to your local DIY and buy a 125A, main lug only 12/24 panel.

Add a 2P-60A main c'bkr kit and an insulated earth ground bus bar kit.

Use 1P-20 for receptacles and lighting circuits.

Use 2P-40 for a 5 HP air compressor and a 2P-30 for your table saw.

Other loads as req'd.

Lew

60 amp breaker and properly sized wire is safe and within code. Others
have suggested to go for the extra capacity for a full 100amp. Well
for one thing, you cannot get a branch breaker in your main panel sized
for 100 amp. I think 60 amp is the maximum. You're talking dedicated
feed to the shop instead of branch off the main when you go 100 amp.
Also you are talking about wire that's getting to be a real bear to
handle and much larger conduit.

I'm with you on going for 60amp. its ample for a home workshop.

Bob

"brianlanning" wrote in message

I don't really need 100 amps.

60A makes much more sense all the way around.

Follow the advice in Lew's post in this thread and you won't go wrong.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/05

In article .com,
brianlanning wrote:
A few years ago, I put a subpanel in my garage/shop. I had a black and
decker book with detailed photos. I'm certain I followed code, and
everything worked perfectly. I had a 220v breaker in the house panel,
and a 60amp subpanel in the garage with i think 6 breaker positions. I
feel very confident that I could do this again safely.

I recently moved. And I'm getting ready to do the same thing again for
the new house. The only thing I want to do differently is to have more
circuits. I want three 220v breakers for the dc, compressor, and
whatever tool is running. I also want at least two 110v lines, but
more like three or four: 1 for tools, and 1 for lights, also future
expansion just in case. In addition, I can't rule out the possability
of adding a huge tool. I can see getting a killer deal on a 3-phase
machine and putting in a rotary convertor for example. Or maybe
something with a 7.5hp or 10hp motor. So I want to be able to handle
higher currents just in case.

I just so happen to have a 100 amp panel. It looks a little different
from the other subpanel I had though. It looks like it's meant to be
the only panel in the house. My old one didn't have a 60amp breaker in
it. It relied on the breaker in the main panel, with the feed wires
going into screw terminals on the bus bar. This one has a 100 amp
breaker in it. It looks like I can't remove it. Am I missing
something?

How should I handle this? Ignore it and put, for example, a 60amp
breaker in the main panel and the right gauge wire for 60 amps? Or go
with a 100 amp breaker so that it matches the one in the subpanel
(assuming fat wire for 100 amps)? Or a different subpanel that has no
breaker?

I don't really need 100 amps. It also has a lot more positions than I
need (like double!). But at the borg, they have the little rinky dink
subpanel I have in the old house. Then the next size up is this 100
amp monster. Should I put in two of the smaller panels, sort of
daisy-chaining them? or run both subpanels back to the main? seems
silly.

any suggestions?

1) Check your electrical code. generally a 'main' disconnect _is_ allowed
in a sub-panel, but it must be *smaller* than the breaker feeding it
in the main panel. (don't ask me to explain it! -- thats what the
inspector here says -- with NEC cites.)

2) Thare are 100A panels made that are _without_ the 'main breaker'.
IIRC, they're called "main lug" panels.

3) looks to me like that hypthothetical 'monster tool', plus DC, plus
lights, plus compressor kicking in at an 'inopportune' time, could
exceed 60A service.

4) I'd suggest considering *NOT* running the lights through the sub-panel.
that way, you _don't_ lose lighting if you overload the 'equipment' panel.

On 2 Jun 2005 23:28:38 -0700, wrote:
60 amp breaker and properly sized wire is safe and within code. Others
have suggested to go for the extra capacity for a full 100amp. Well
for one thing, you cannot get a branch breaker in your main panel sized
for 100 amp. I think 60 amp is the maximum.

How's that? I have a 100A subpanel, fed from a 100A breaker in the main panel.


--
Art Greenberg
artg AT eclipse DOT net

On 2 Jun 2005 12:27:38 -0700, "brianlanning"
wrote:

A few years ago, I put a subpanel in my garage/shop. I had a black and
decker book with detailed photos. I'm certain I followed code, and
everything worked perfectly. I had a 220v breaker in the house panel,
and a 60amp subpanel in the garage with i think 6 breaker positions. I
feel very confident that I could do this again safely.

I recently moved. And I'm getting ready to do the same thing again for
the new house. The only thing I want to do differently is to have more
circuits. I want three 220v breakers for the dc, compressor, and
whatever tool is running. I also want at least two 110v lines, but
more like three or four: 1 for tools, and 1 for lights, also future
expansion just in case. In addition, I can't rule out the possability
of adding a huge tool. I can see getting a killer deal on a 3-phase
machine and putting in a rotary convertor for example. Or maybe
something with a 7.5hp or 10hp motor. So I want to be able to handle
higher currents just in case.

I just so happen to have a 100 amp panel. It looks a little different
from the other subpanel I had though. It looks like it's meant to be
the only panel in the house. My old one didn't have a 60amp breaker in
it. It relied on the breaker in the main panel, with the feed wires
going into screw terminals on the bus bar. This one has a 100 amp
breaker in it. It looks like I can't remove it. Am I missing
something?

How should I handle this? Ignore it and put, for example, a 60amp
breaker in the main panel and the right gauge wire for 60 amps? Or go
with a 100 amp breaker so that it matches the one in the subpanel
(assuming fat wire for 100 amps)? Or a different subpanel that has no
breaker?

I don't really need 100 amps. It also has a lot more positions than I
need (like double!). But at the borg, they have the little rinky dink
subpanel I have in the old house. Then the next size up is this 100
amp monster. Should I put in two of the smaller panels, sort of
daisy-chaining them? or run both subpanels back to the main? seems
silly.

any suggestions?

brian

Brian

I did something similar to what you are asking about. This was
approved and inspected by my local inspector - but yours might have
other ideas - so bounce it off your inspector.

I have a small acreage, power flows from the pole to the house,
200A main panel. I have 4 outbuildings (former farmsted), the out
buildings are daisychained off the house w/ #6 wire (3 strands) & a
60A breaker in the house panel.

Each outbuilding has its own panel, wired as a subpanel. Because they
are seperate buildings, each building has its own ground rod. In the
new building (pole frame), where I intend to relocate my shop, I
wanted lots of capacity for breakers and circuts. There I installed
a 100A panel w/ a main breaker. The main breaker in effect is a
quick disconnect in the new building, the protection is on the
individual circuts, and the 60A breaker in the house.

IF I find out later on that I need more capacity (amps), I can bring a
100A feed in to the pole shed (most likely from the pole). and the
other buildings will still have the 60A feed from the house (thru
the use of a terminal block on each building).

Looks something like this:

House 200A main
60A feed to Shed 1

Shed 1
subpanel, feed to Shed 2

Shed 2 (pole frame)
100A panel, feed to Shed 3

Shed 3
subpanel, feed to Shed 4

Shed 4
subpanel, end of run.

Jim

wrote in message =
oups.com...
| 60 amp breaker and properly sized wire is safe and within code. =
Others
| have suggested to go for the extra capacity for a full 100amp. Well
| for one thing, you cannot get a branch breaker in your main panel =
sized
| for 100 amp. I think 60 amp is the maximum. You're talking dedicated
| feed to the shop instead of branch off the main when you go 100 amp.
| Also you are talking about wire that's getting to be a real bear to
| handle and much larger conduit.
|=20
| I'm with you on going for 60amp. its ample for a home workshop.
|=20
| Bob

Not too sure where you're coming from, Bob, as my shop is fed from a =
100A breakered service that is itself a drop from my 100A main service. =
The feed wire is about 1" thick (I think #1). The electrician who =
installed it had no problem doing so.

The setup allows me to isolate the shop service such that I can supply =
emergency power to my furnace and/or air conditioner whenever the hydro =
is out. It tends to **** the neighbours a tad when I have the only =
lights in town.

I currently have 3 15A 110 drops from it and 1 20A 220 for my =
compressor. As this panel used to be my main (until I upgraded to =
breakers) there is lots of room for expansion.

There seems to me to be no reason not to go for more capacity when it is =
available.


--=20
PDQ

Thanks to everyone who replied.

I have an odd no-name main panel in the house, so the way I go may
depend on parts availability. They're still constructing in the
neighborhood. I may flag down the electrician and see if I can buy the
breaker from him.

I hadn't though about the extra main switch being an advantage. I
guess I'll leave it in.

I have an extra set of lights that won't be going through the subpanel.
I'll lose the main lights, but still have plenty to see.

brian