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#1
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Accidental use of water and water company?
A buddy of mine was away for a week and returned to find that the water
heater in his rented condo had sprung a major leak. He said it was running about like half of a wide open sink faucet rate. The friggin thing was about 23 years old. I remember seeing the label on it, how the area around the pipe connections looked corroded, etc. I warned him about it and told him to make sure he shut off the water when he was away on trips, but obviously, he didn't. Good news is that the water was handled by the sump pump. Bad news is a lot of water may have been billed. Not sure about the gas, as he shut the thing off without finding out if the thing had been fired up. The water coming out was cold, but at that flow rate, it could just be that it couldn't heat it fast enough. He did say he didn't hear it running. I'm hoping the water put the pilot out, but on the other hand, from where it was leaking, it sounds like it was the anode rod fitting area at the top of the tank that went. Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Also, what are views on the landlord's responsibility for paying for the water/gas if the utility company does not? In the general case, where it just happens to say a reasonably new water heater, it would seem to me this is a grey area as to whether the landlord would be responsible to pay for water. In the case of a 20+ year old water heater, I think he has a much better case, as it's well known that these things usually fail long before that, so it looks like a case for negligence could be made. |
#2
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Accidental use of water and water company?
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#3
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Accidental use of water and water company?
RicodJour wrote:
The gas and water companies have no role in this. If you consume, you pay. In my town, water meters read like odometers. The meter reader is competent and reliable. The retired couple across the street used about 2500 gallons per month. They were thrifty and sensible. They would not water their lawn or even their shrubs. One month they were billed for something like 15,000 gallons. They couldn't account for it. They would certainly have heard that much water running in the house, such as in a stuck toilet. It was a drought. I'd been over there frequently and would have noticed wet ground if a hose had been left on. They had to pay. All bills before and after were normal. Other people in town have had the same experience. What could cause it? |
#4
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Accidental use of water and water company?
Bart Byers wrote: RicodJour wrote: The gas and water companies have no role in this. If you consume, you pay. In my town, water meters read like odometers. The meter reader is competent and reliable. The retired couple across the street used about 2500 gallons per month. They were thrifty and sensible. They would not water their lawn or even their shrubs. One month they were billed for something like 15,000 gallons. They couldn't account for it. They would certainly have heard that much water running in the house, such as in a stuck toilet. It was a drought. I'd been over there frequently and would have noticed wet ground if a hose had been left on. They had to pay. All bills before and after were normal. Other people in town have had the same experience. What could cause it? revenue enhancement. D |
#5
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Accidental use of water and water company?
"Bart Byers" wrote in message ... RicodJour wrote: In my town, water meters read like odometers. The meter reader is competent and reliable. The retired couple across the street used about 2500 gallons per month. They were thrifty and sensible. They would not water their lawn or even their shrubs. One month they were billed for something like 15,000 gallons. They couldn't account for it. They would certainly have heard that much water running in the house, such as in a stuck toilet. It was a drought. I'd been over there frequently and would have noticed wet ground if a hose had been left on. They had to pay. All bills before and after were normal. Other people in town have had the same experience. What could cause it? Possibly the water company was sending out estimated usage bills which were low and then finally got around to actually reading the meters?? lee |
#6
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Accidental use of water and water company?
lee houston wrote:
"Bart Byers" wrote in message ... RicodJour wrote: In my town, water meters read like odometers. The meter reader is competent and reliable. The retired couple across the street used about 2500 gallons per month. They were thrifty and sensible. They would not water their lawn or even their shrubs. One month they were billed for something like 15,000 gallons. They couldn't account for it. They would certainly have heard that much water running in the house, such as in a stuck toilet. It was a drought. I'd been over there frequently and would have noticed wet ground if a hose had been left on. They had to pay. All bills before and after were normal. Other people in town have had the same experience. What could cause it? Possibly the water company was sending out estimated usage bills which were low and then finally got around to actually reading the meters?? lee More likely they misread the meter. Had that happen several times on electric meters where they would misread an upper digit. Had to call in corrected readings. Even if I didn't call in corrected readings it would be corrected at the next proper reading since it's a continuous count, not a monthly reset. The bills after that 15,000 gallons were likely not "normal", but rather "minimum" charges that showed little or no water use, just the base charge. In my case anything from 2,000 gal down is the base charge. I did once blow a 3/4" fitting past the meter and it dumped about 12,000 gal before I found and fixed it. The lawn was nice and green for a while in the area sloping downhill from the meter pit. Pete C. |
#7
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Accidental use of water and water company?
Pete C. wrote:
lee houston wrote: "Bart Byers" wrote in message ... RicodJour wrote: In my town, water meters read like odometers. The meter reader is competent and reliable. The retired couple across the street used about 2500 gallons per month. They were thrifty and sensible. They would not water their lawn or even their shrubs. One month they were billed for something like 15,000 gallons. They couldn't account for it. They would certainly have heard that much water running in the house, such as in a stuck toilet. It was a drought. I'd been over there frequently and would have noticed wet ground if a hose had been left on. They had to pay. All bills before and after were normal. Other people in town have had the same experience. What could cause it? Possibly the water company was sending out estimated usage bills which were low and then finally got around to actually reading the meters?? lee More likely they misread the meter. Had that happen several times on electric meters where they would misread an upper digit. Had to call in corrected readings. Even if I didn't call in corrected readings it would be corrected at the next proper reading since it's a continuous count, not a monthly reset. The bills after that 15,000 gallons were likely not "normal", but rather "minimum" charges that showed little or no water use, just the base charge. In my case anything from 2,000 gal down is the base charge. I did once blow a 3/4" fitting past the meter and it dumped about 12,000 gal before I found and fixed it. The lawn was nice and green for a while in the area sloping downhill from the meter pit. Pete C. Once a month the reader can be seen walking down the street and writing the reading from each reader. A reading approximately 12,000 gallons high would mean more than one digit was misread. As soon as I heard about the high reading, I checked the meter. The usage since that reading was consistent with historic usage. |
#9
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Accidental use of water and water company?
RicodJour wrote: wrote: A buddy of mine was away for a week and returned to find that the water heater in his rented condo had sprung a major leak. He said it was running about like half of a wide open sink faucet rate. The friggin thing was about 23 years old. I remember seeing the label on it, how the area around the pipe connections looked corroded, etc. I warned him about it and told him to make sure he shut off the water when he was away on trips, but obviously, he didn't. Good news is that the water was handled by the sump pump. Bad news is a lot of water may have been billed. Not sure about the gas, as he shut the thing off without finding out if the thing had been fired up. The water coming out was cold, but at that flow rate, it could just be that it couldn't heat it fast enough. He did say he didn't hear it running. I'm hoping the water put the pilot out, but on the other hand, from where it was leaking, it sounds like it was the anode rod fitting area at the top of the tank that went. Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Also, what are views on the landlord's responsibility for paying for the water/gas if the utility company does not? In the general case, where it just happens to say a reasonably new water heater, it would seem to me this is a grey area as to whether the landlord would be responsible to pay for water. In the case of a 20+ year old water heater, I think he has a much better case, as it's well known that these things usually fail long before that, so it looks like a case for negligence could be made. The major causative factor was your friend ignoring your advice and warning. There's the negligence for you. The landlord may or may not have been aware of the age and condition of the water heater. Unless your friend sent a letter to the landlord alerting him to the heater's imminent demise, then expecting the landlord to rollover on the gas/water bill is highly unrelaistic. He's already facing a larger than usual monthly cost in replacing the water heater and probably won't take kindly to be asked to spring for more money to cover utility bills. The gas and water companies have no role in this. If you consume, you pay. This is one of those situations where the tenant escaped a bullet. Expecting to be reimbursed for the bullet is ridiculous. I wouldn't be stoking the fire for compensation from the landlord or utility companies, but rather pointing out the tenant's role and ultimate responsibility. Throw in a "I told you so." or three so they learn something and will listen to you next time. R So, the tenant is now the one responsible for making sure the building structure and utilities are properly maintained? And it's there fault if something that is way beyond it's expected service life fails and damage results? That's a new concept. The place passed a CO inspection. Should they then hire a home inspector to review everything, give opinions and document everything that they find wrong? And how would the typical landlord react to that? Amazing that you have more empathy for the landlord who has to pay for a new water heater after 23 years, than the tenant who was not in control of deciding when to replace it. I don't think it's at all ridiculous for the tenant to be looking for reimbursement. In fact, I think if it went to small claims, the tenant would have a pretty good case. |
#10
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Accidental use of water and water company?
wrote: RicodJour wrote: wrote: A buddy of mine was away for a week and returned to find that the water heater in his rented condo had sprung a major leak. He said it was running about like half of a wide open sink faucet rate. The friggin thing was about 23 years old. I remember seeing the label on it, how the area around the pipe connections looked corroded, etc. I warned him about it and told him to make sure he shut off the water when he was away on trips, but obviously, he didn't. Good news is that the water was handled by the sump pump. Bad news is a lot of water may have been billed. Not sure about the gas, as he shut the thing off without finding out if the thing had been fired up. The water coming out was cold, but at that flow rate, it could just be that it couldn't heat it fast enough. He did say he didn't hear it running. I'm hoping the water put the pilot out, but on the other hand, from where it was leaking, it sounds like it was the anode rod fitting area at the top of the tank that went. Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Also, what are views on the landlord's responsibility for paying for the water/gas if the utility company does not? In the general case, where it just happens to say a reasonably new water heater, it would seem to me this is a grey area as to whether the landlord would be responsible to pay for water. In the case of a 20+ year old water heater, I think he has a much better case, as it's well known that these things usually fail long before that, so it looks like a case for negligence could be made. The major causative factor was your friend ignoring your advice and warning. There's the negligence for you. The landlord may or may not have been aware of the age and condition of the water heater. Unless your friend sent a letter to the landlord alerting him to the heater's imminent demise, then expecting the landlord to rollover on the gas/water bill is highly unrelaistic. He's already facing a larger than usual monthly cost in replacing the water heater and probably won't take kindly to be asked to spring for more money to cover utility bills. The gas and water companies have no role in this. If you consume, you pay. This is one of those situations where the tenant escaped a bullet. Expecting to be reimbursed for the bullet is ridiculous. I wouldn't be stoking the fire for compensation from the landlord or utility companies, but rather pointing out the tenant's role and ultimate responsibility. Throw in a "I told you so." or three so they learn something and will listen to you next time. R So, the tenant is now the one responsible for making sure the building structure and utilities are properly maintained? And it's there fault if something that is way beyond it's expected service life fails and damage results? That's a new concept. The place passed a CO inspection. Should they then hire a home inspector to review everything, give opinions and document everything that they find wrong? And how would the typical landlord react to that? Amazing that you have more empathy for the landlord who has to pay for a new water heater after 23 years, than the tenant who was not in control of deciding when to replace it. I don't think it's at all ridiculous for the tenant to be looking for reimbursement. In fact, I think if it went to small claims, the tenant would have a pretty good case. This whole situation is not exactly cut & dried; the water heater was old, the landlord did or should have know it's age & conditionm the CO inspection should have flagged the w/h your friend should have listened to you about turing the water off your firend could have had someone house sit or at least do a walk through your friend is in physical posession of the property; the eyes & ears on site, he had material knowledge of a potential problem; information not given to the landlord like R said, this has slide over to the area of ethics since there conditon was recognized. maybe someone's insurance can cover it or maybe the two parties can split the extra bills bottom line, you discovered a potential problem (like a smoldering fire? but not as bad) & your friend choose not to act or pass on that information; in the legal world I believe this is call contingent liabiltiy.........no one (excpet for you) in this situation has entirely clean hands, the truth be told. cheers Bob |
#11
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Accidental use of water and water company?
It is the landlords responsibility to maintain the equipment, not the
tennant. Did the landlord have in the lease to turn off the water heater when leaving, no he did not, no one does, so why should the tennant be responsible, he is not. Utility companies may or may not understand the landlords problems. Of course all will want the tennant to pay, but its not his equipment that failed, he rents, not owns. |
#12
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Accidental use of water and water company?
wrote in message Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Of course they want full payment. It went through the meter so you pay. If you don't pay, everyone else pays a little more to make up the difference. If , at the end of the week, your employer said he really didn't need what you did on Tuesday, would you accept that he won't pay you? |
#13
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Accidental use of water and water company?
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#14
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Accidental use of water and water company?
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#15
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Accidental use of water and water company?
My city charges for sewer based on the gallons of water consumed. They
assume a certain amount of water usage goes down the sewer in the summer months. The rest of the water bill does not have the sewer charge. Not sure if they have their own fixed numbers or if they use your average water usage. In the summer months this "rate reduction" is automatic. Likewise, if you tell them you will be filling your swimming pool, you can provide the before and after water meter readings and they will charge you only for the water (not sewer). The swimming pool example is first-hand from my neighbor. |
#16
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Accidental use of water and water company?
"Les" wrote in message ups.com... My city charges for sewer based on the gallons of water consumed. They assume a certain amount of water usage goes down the sewer in the summer months. The rest of the water bill does not have the sewer charge. Not sure if they have their own fixed numbers or if they use your average water usage. In the summer months this "rate reduction" is automatic. Likewise, if you tell them you will be filling your swimming pool, you can provide the before and after water meter readings and they will charge you only for the water (not sewer). The swimming pool example is first-hand from my neighbor. My utility charge for sewage based on the winter water usage rate. Bob |
#17
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Accidental use of water and water company?
Oren wrote: On 12 Jul 2006 07:41:31 -0700, wrote: A buddy of mine was away for a week and returned to find that the water heater in his rented condo had sprung a major leak. He said it was running about like half of a wide open sink faucet rate. The friggin thing was about 23 years old. I remember seeing the label on it, how the area around the pipe connections looked corroded, etc. I warned him about it and told him to make sure he shut off the water when he was away on trips, but obviously, he didn't. Good news is that the water was handled by the sump pump. Bad news is a lot of water may have been billed. Not sure about the gas, as he shut the thing off without finding out if the thing had been fired up. The water coming out was cold, but at that flow rate, it could just be that it couldn't heat it fast enough. He did say he didn't hear it running. I'm hoping the water put the pilot out, but on the other hand, from where it was leaking, it sounds like it was the anode rod fitting area at the top of the tank that went. Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Also, what are views on the landlord's responsibility for paying for the water/gas if the utility company does not? In the general case, where it just happens to say a reasonably new water heater, it would seem to me this is a grey area as to whether the landlord would be responsible to pay for water. In the case of a 20+ year old water heater, I think he has a much better case, as it's well known that these things usually fail long before that, so it looks like a case for negligence could be made. The person "billed" for the account will be the one to pay. When I had tenants, the lease specifically indicated they paid all utilities and those accounts were in their names. Some things like garbage pick up and association fees could not be placed in the tenant name, but it was written in the lease that they pay them. I always had an emergency fund for big items, like a broken AC, water heater, etc. Tenants, by the lease were to notify me if any broke.. I think the landlord should fix the water heater as he has a vested interest keeping property in good shape. Wow, that's big of you. You THINK the landlord should fix the water heater? As opposed to doing what? Some great landlord you must be. PS: Just because the lease says the tenant pays the utilities doesn't absolve the landlord from winding up having to pay in small claims, because the issue obviously is that the tenant would not have incurred this expense had the landlords 23 year old water heater failed. I had one leak and guess I lost about 500 gallons, just looking at the bill that I paid. A neighbor lost somewhere close to 5,000 gallons due to a main from the meter to the house that broke from a tree root. The builder fixed the water line, I think he paid the water. Oh my! The builder paid? Why would he ever do that instead of the homeowner paying? Oren |
#18
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Accidental use of water and water company?
On 12 Jul 2006 11:14:03 -0700, wrote:
Oren wrote: On 12 Jul 2006 07:41:31 -0700, wrote: A buddy of mine was away for a week and returned to find that the water heater in his rented condo had sprung a major leak. He said it was running about like half of a wide open sink faucet rate. The friggin thing was about 23 years old. I remember seeing the label on it, how the area around the pipe connections looked corroded, etc. I warned him about it and told him to make sure he shut off the water when he was away on trips, but obviously, he didn't. Good news is that the water was handled by the sump pump. Bad news is a lot of water may have been billed. Not sure about the gas, as he shut the thing off without finding out if the thing had been fired up. The water coming out was cold, but at that flow rate, it could just be that it couldn't heat it fast enough. He did say he didn't hear it running. I'm hoping the water put the pilot out, but on the other hand, from where it was leaking, it sounds like it was the anode rod fitting area at the top of the tank that went. Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Also, what are views on the landlord's responsibility for paying for the water/gas if the utility company does not? In the general case, where it just happens to say a reasonably new water heater, it would seem to me this is a grey area as to whether the landlord would be responsible to pay for water. In the case of a 20+ year old water heater, I think he has a much better case, as it's well known that these things usually fail long before that, so it looks like a case for negligence could be made. The person "billed" for the account will be the one to pay. When I had tenants, the lease specifically indicated they paid all utilities and those accounts were in their names. Some things like garbage pick up and association fees could not be placed in the tenant name, but it was written in the lease that they pay them. I always had an emergency fund for big items, like a broken AC, water heater, etc. Tenants, by the lease were to notify me if any broke.. I think the landlord should fix the water heater as he has a vested interest keeping property in good shape. Wow, that's big of you. You THINK the landlord should fix the water heater? As opposed to doing what? Some great landlord you must be. Still don't like answers you get, so you must attack. Tell us the tenant's responsibility in this case. PS: Just because the lease says the tenant pays the utilities doesn't absolve the landlord from winding up having to pay in small claims, because the issue obviously is that the tenant would not have incurred this expense had the landlords 23 year old water heater failed. The court has to WIND 'em up. Go ahead take up your friend's cause. You may be his best advice, that he did not take before. I had one leak and guess I lost about 500 gallons, just looking at the bill that I paid. A neighbor lost somewhere close to 5,000 gallons due to a main from the meter to the house that broke from a tree root. The builder fixed the water line, I think he paid the water. Oh my! The builder paid? Why would he ever do that instead of the homeowner paying? The builder planted the tree at or near the water line and was under warranty, not like a 23 yo water heater.......... Oren |
#19
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Accidental use of water and water company?
Oren wrote: On 12 Jul 2006 11:14:03 -0700, wrote: Oren wrote: On 12 Jul 2006 07:41:31 -0700, wrote: A buddy of mine was away for a week and returned to find that the water heater in his rented condo had sprung a major leak. He said it was running about like half of a wide open sink faucet rate. The friggin thing was about 23 years old. I remember seeing the label on it, how the area around the pipe connections looked corroded, etc. I warned him about it and told him to make sure he shut off the water when he was away on trips, but obviously, he didn't. Good news is that the water was handled by the sump pump. Bad news is a lot of water may have been billed. Not sure about the gas, as he shut the thing off without finding out if the thing had been fired up. The water coming out was cold, but at that flow rate, it could just be that it couldn't heat it fast enough. He did say he didn't hear it running. I'm hoping the water put the pilot out, but on the other hand, from where it was leaking, it sounds like it was the anode rod fitting area at the top of the tank that went. Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Also, what are views on the landlord's responsibility for paying for the water/gas if the utility company does not? In the general case, where it just happens to say a reasonably new water heater, it would seem to me this is a grey area as to whether the landlord would be responsible to pay for water. In the case of a 20+ year old water heater, I think he has a much better case, as it's well known that these things usually fail long before that, so it looks like a case for negligence could be made. The person "billed" for the account will be the one to pay. When I had tenants, the lease specifically indicated they paid all utilities and those accounts were in their names. Some things like garbage pick up and association fees could not be placed in the tenant name, but it was written in the lease that they pay them. I always had an emergency fund for big items, like a broken AC, water heater, etc. Tenants, by the lease were to notify me if any broke.. Wow, that's big of you. You THINK the landlord should fix the water heater? As opposed to doing what? Some great landlord you must be. Still don't like answers you get, so you must attack. Tell us the tenant's responsibility in this case. The tenant's responsibility for what? The landlord knew how old the water heater was. The condo passed a CO inspection in Dec. What more do you want? Just because I gave an opinion, that now turned out to be right, that means the landlord has no responsibility? As for attacking, call it what you want. But when a water heater bursts and you say: "I think the landlord should fix the water heater as he has a vested interest keeping property in good shape." I think it pretty much shows where you're coming from. Most reasonable people would say the landlord must replace the water heater because the landlord is responsible for it as a most basic part of the rental contract. PS: Just because the lease says the tenant pays the utilities doesn't absolve the landlord from winding up having to pay in small claims, because the issue obviously is that the tenant would not have incurred this expense had the landlords 23 year old water heater failed. The court has to WIND 'em up. Go ahead take up your friend's cause. You may be his best advice, that he did not take before. I had one leak and guess I lost about 500 gallons, just looking at the bill that I paid. A neighbor lost somewhere close to 5,000 gallons due to a main from the meter to the house that broke from a tree root. The builder fixed the water line, I think he paid the water. Oh my! The builder paid? Why would he ever do that instead of the homeowner paying? The builder planted the tree at or near the water line and was under warranty, not like a 23 yo water heater.......... Whether the water heater had a warranty or not is irrelevant as far as damages go. And I've never seen a home warranty that includes coverage for paying for water or gas that was billed as a result of a leak. The fact that the builder who paid for the repair and the lost water, planted a tree nearby that contributed to the problem seems pretty similar to a landlord choosing to continue using a 23 year old gas water heater. So, I'd say your example does prove that in at least some of these cases, someone other than the homeowner/tenant does pay for the lost water. We've also seen that others have reported utilities cutting breaks to help as well. Oren |
#20
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Accidental use of water and water company?
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#21
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Accidental use of water and water company?
Someone asked about the 60,000 gallon loss of water we had. It was a flush valve in a bathrrom in a warehouse that is not used. No one even went into that roomf or a long time. |
#22
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Accidental use of water and water company?
Some water companies provide catastrophe relief in the form of a one
time bill based upon your average consumtion- it's worth looking into. Also if the water did not exit back through sewage treatment you might get relief from that portion of your bill. wrote: A buddy of mine was away for a week and returned to find that the water heater in his rented condo had sprung a major leak. He said it was running about like half of a wide open sink faucet rate. The friggin thing was about 23 years old. I remember seeing the label on it, how the area around the pipe connections looked corroded, etc. I warned him about it and told him to make sure he shut off the water when he was away on trips, but obviously, he didn't. Good news is that the water was handled by the sump pump. Bad news is a lot of water may have been billed. Not sure about the gas, as he shut the thing off without finding out if the thing had been fired up. The water coming out was cold, but at that flow rate, it could just be that it couldn't heat it fast enough. He did say he didn't hear it running. I'm hoping the water put the pilot out, but on the other hand, from where it was leaking, it sounds like it was the anode rod fitting area at the top of the tank that went. Just wondering, does anyone have any experience in what happens with the water or gas company in a case like this. Do they expect full payment for the water/gas? Or if you can show it was an accident do they negotiate or give you a break? Also, what are views on the landlord's responsibility for paying for the water/gas if the utility company does not? In the general case, where it just happens to say a reasonably new water heater, it would seem to me this is a grey area as to whether the landlord would be responsible to pay for water. In the case of a 20+ year old water heater, I think he has a much better case, as it's well known that these things usually fail long before that, so it looks like a case for negligence could be made. |
#23
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Accidental use of water and water company?
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#24
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Accidental use of water and water company?
landlord can basically do what he wants, i had one say its your
responsiblity to replace the water heater... yeah sure... it may not be the lazy handyman, many landlords are so fixated at saving bucks handy guy is likely doing job as instructed. if you see a bad job before moving in run away. but rent is likely lower and everyone wants something cheap |
#25
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Accidental use of water and water company?
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