My last question before I get started with insulating my crawl space.
Remember this is my first time doing this. What does the "R" mean for
insulation. I was going to insulated my crawl space with fiberglass
insulation but a man from the big orange box told me that for a crawl
space I could use (i forgot the exact name) styrofoam and glue it to the
walls and it would have an R10 rating (or something like that). What did
he mean and is styrofoam just as effective as insulation (in Colorado) for
keeping the heat in?

"cece e." wrote in message
news:a7e539f1bc9dfc6800930e84a7875f5d@homerepairli ve.com...
My last question before I get started with insulating my crawl space.
Remember this is my first time doing this. What does the "R" mean for
insulation. I was going to insulated my crawl space with fiberglass
insulation but a man from the big orange box told me that for a crawl
space I could use (i forgot the exact name) styrofoam and glue it to the
walls and it would have an R10 rating (or something like that). What did
he mean and is styrofoam just as effective as insulation (in Colorado) for
keeping the heat in?

R is for resistance to heat movement. Some info here
http://www.rvalue.net/

Styrofoam is about R4 per inch, same with expandable polystyrene.

R is the fraction of heat loss compared to an air gap the same thickness.
So R-19 insulation will conduct 1/19 as much heat as an air gap the same
thickness. If you place two pieces of insulation on top of each other you
can add the R value. For example two 6" fiberglass bats (R-19 each) equals
R-38.


"cece e." wrote in message
news:a7e539f1bc9dfc6800930e84a7875f5d@homerepairli ve.com...
My last question before I get started with insulating my crawl space.
Remember this is my first time doing this. What does the "R" mean for
insulation. I was going to insulated my crawl space with fiberglass
insulation but a man from the big orange box told me that for a crawl
space I could use (i forgot the exact name) styrofoam and glue it to the
walls and it would have an R10 rating (or something like that). What did
he mean and is styrofoam just as effective as insulation (in Colorado) for
keeping the heat in?

"cece e." wrote on 11 Jul
2006:

I was going to insulated my crawl space
with fiberglass insulation but a man from the big orange box
told me that for a crawl space I could use (i forgot the exact
name) styrofoam and glue it to the walls and it would have an
R10 rating (or something like that). What did he mean and is
styrofoam just as effective as insulation (in Colorado) for
keeping the heat in?

We're talking two different strategies for insulating a crawl space
here, I believe. You intended to put fiberglas batts between the
floor joists, and he wants you to insulate the walls of the
crawlspace.

The difference is how the crawlspace functions. In your system, it
stays close to the temperature (and humidity) of the outside air.
You open the small vent windows in the summer and block them off in
the winter. In his system, the crawlspace is insulated space --
warmer in the winter and colder in the summer. The crawlspace
isn't ventilated at all in any season.

So it seems to me you and he are talking apples and oranges. Both
methods are routinely used these days. You might want to talk to
your local utility and get their recommendation for what works well
in your area -- and, if you seal the crawlspace, how to deal with
heating equipment in the crawlspace (needs an intake air duct for
combustion air).


--
Doug Boulter

To reply by e-mail, remove the obvious word from the e-mail address

"cece e." wrote:

My last question before I get started with insulating my crawl space...
What does the "R" mean for insulation.

Resistance to heat flow. Specifically, Ohm's law for heatflow says I = E/R
Btu/h, where E is an F temp diff and R is the R-value of 1 square foot of
insulation. For A square feet, multiply the heatflow by A.

For instance, a 2'x8' R5 Styrofoam (vs R4 beadboard) wall that's 70 F on
one side and 30 F on the other will have I = (70F-30F)2'x8'/R5 = 128 Btu/h
of heat (38 watts) flowing through it.

Nick

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 03:30:45 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"cece e." wrote in message
news:a7e539f1bc9dfc6800930e84a7875f5d@homerepairl ive.com...
My last question before I get started with insulating my crawl space.
Remember this is my first time doing this. What does the "R" mean for
insulation. I was going to insulated my crawl space with fiberglass
insulation but a man from the big orange box told me that for a crawl
space I could use (i forgot the exact name) styrofoam and glue it to the
walls and it would have an R10 rating (or something like that). What did
he mean and is styrofoam just as effective as insulation (in Colorado) for
keeping the heat in?

R is for resistance to heat movement. Some info here
http://www.rvalue.net/

Styrofoam is about R4 per inch, same with expandable polystyrene.


And here I always thought it meant "Rob". The higher the R value the
more money they ROB from your wallet.

Styrofoam is R4-4.5" Blue or pink foamboard is R5" Foil faced
Polyisocyanurate foamboard is R7.2" R value is resistance to heat flow,
foam costs more, in certain areas it is better where area to insulate is
minimal, it also provides a vapor -air infiltration barrier.

Have you tried Aluminium foil its cheaper and more practical
fire resistant and easier to install it is something you could buy from
a grocery store
R means retardant
cece e. wrote:
My last question before I get started with insulating my crawl space.
Remember this is my first time doing this. What does the "R" mean for
insulation. I was going to insulated my crawl space with fiberglass
insulation but a man from the big orange box told me that for a crawl
space I could use (i forgot the exact name) styrofoam and glue it to the
walls and it would have an R10 rating (or something like that). What did
he mean and is styrofoam just as effective as insulation (in Colorado) for
keeping the heat in?

m Ransley errs again:

Styrofoam is R4-4.5" Blue or pink foamboard is R5"

Same thing. All R5 per inch. Open cell expanded polystyrene
(white coffee cup material) is R4 per inch...

Foil faced Polyisocyanurate foamboard is R7.2"

These days, it's often stamped "R6.8" (per inch.)
Add about R3 per foil, if the foils are exposed.

Nick

Nick, White Styrofoam is not R5", extruded polystyrene, the pink Owens
Corning or blue Dow is R5" . White Styrofoam board is sold just like R5
extruded polystyrene board, in the same manner, but is inferior in R
value, workability and stability.

Polyisocyanurate foilfaced newly used rating of 6.7"-6.8" is the aged
or mature R value after R 7.2" polyiso outgasses.

Perhaps you could provide us with some detailed mathematicals of your
opinion.

Nick, foilfaced does not increase R value by 3R per foil, or R6 for
both side, please provide proof of your statement. At most it
contributes R-.5, if that.

m Ransley wrote:

White Styrofoam board is sold just like R5 extruded polystyrene board,
in the same manner, but is inferior in R value, workability and stability.

Where can we buy this "white Styrofoam board"? :-)

Nick

m Ransley wrote:

Nick, foilfaced does not increase R value by 3R per foil...

Wrong.

Nick

wrote in message

Same thing. All R5 per inch. Open cell expanded polystyrene
(white coffee cup material) is R4 per inch...

That would be closed cell.

wrote in message
White Styrofoam board is sold just like R5 extruded polystyrene board,
in the same manner, but is inferior in R value, workability and stability.

Where can we buy this "white Styrofoam board"? :-)

Nick

Styrofoam is the blue material extruded by Dow Chemical. Styrofoam is a
registered trademark of Dow but often the name is mis-used when referring to
any other type of polystyrene foam board, extruded or molded and wire cut
such as the CLOSED cell expandable polystyrene board, sometimes called bead
board.

Alright nick, post Proof foil increases Polyisocyanurate by R3, You
Can`t dip****.

According to zyberengel :
Have you tried Aluminium foil its cheaper and more practical
fire resistant and easier to install it is something you could buy from
a grocery store

And has _zero_ insulation value. Except inosofar as it may seal
air leaks. He's trying to insulate it, not improve its fire resistance.

R means retardant

R is insulation factor. Not fire retarding rating.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Styrofoam is the blue material extruded by Dow Chemical. Styrofoam is a
registered trademark of Dow but often the name is mis-used when referring to
any other type of polystyrene foam board, extruded or molded and wire cut
such as the CLOSED cell expandable polystyrene board, sometimes called bead
board.

EPS is open cell. X (extruded) PS is closed.

Nick

m Ransley wrote:

Alright nick, post Proof foil increases Polyisocyanurate by R3...

Sorry. I have other things to do than correct your many mistakes.

Nick

Right Nick, you post numbers but cant prove anything, because foil does
nothing of real merit to R value, it is a Radiant barrier, no R value of
significance. If as you say it increases each side by R3 then R 7.2 -
1" of polyiso would come out near R 13, kind of dumb, yes, maybe you
have numbers to prove your dream.

m Ransley wrote:

Right Nick, you post numbers but cant prove anything, because foil does
nothing of real merit to R value, it is a Radiant barrier, no R value of
significance. If as you say it increases each side by R3 then R 7.2 -
1" of polyiso would come out near R 13, kind of dumb, yes, maybe you
have numbers to prove your dream.

Unlike your arrogance, your ignorance may be curable :-)

You might buy an old copy of the ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals and look
at the table on R-values of plane airspaces, or look into "System R-values."

Nick

Labeling and Advertising of Home Insulation (R-Value Rule) CFR 16CFR460

(From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access)

Source: 44 FR 50242, Aug. 27, 1979, unless otherwise noted.

Sec. 460.1 What this regulation does.

This regulation deals with home insulation labels, fact sheets, ads, and
other promotional materials in or affecting commerce, as "commerce" is
defined in the Federal Trade Commission Act. If you are covered by this
regulation, breaking any of its rules is an unfair and deceptive act or
practice or an unfair method of competition under section 5 of that Act. You
can be fined heavily (up to $10,000 plus an adjustment for inflation, under
Sec. 1.98 of this chapter) each time you break a rule...

460.5 R-value tests.

R-value measures resistance to heat flow. R-values given in labels, fact
sheets, ads, or other promotional materials must be based on tests done
under the methods listed below. They were designed by the American Society
of Testing and Materials (ASTM). The test methods a
All types of insulation except aluminum foil must be tested with ASTM C
177-85 (Reapproved 1993), "Standard Test Method for Steady-State Heat Flux
Measurements and Thermal Transmission Properties by Means of the
Guarded-Hot-Plate Apparatus;" ASTM C 236-89 (Reapproved 1993)...

The tests must be done at a mean temperature of 75 deg.Fahrenheit. The tests
must be done on the insulation material alone (excluding any airspace).
R-values ("thermal resistance") based upon heat flux measurements according
to ASTM C 177-85 (Reapproved 1993) or ASTM C 518-91 must be reported only
in accordance with the requirements and restrictions of ASTM C 1045-90,
"Standard Practice for Calculating Thermal Transmission Properties from
Steady-State Heat Flux Measurements."

Aluminum foil systems with more than one sheet must be tested with ASTM C
236-89 (Reapproved 1993) or ASTM C 976-90, which are incorporated by
reference in paragraph (a) of this section. The tests must be done at a mean
temperature of 75 deg.Fahrenheit, with a temperature differential of 30
deg.Fahrenheit.

Single sheet systems of aluminum foil must be tested with ASTM E408 or
another test method that provides comparable results. This tests the
emissivity of the foil--its power to radiate heat. To get the R-value for a
specific emissivity level, air space, and direction of heat flow, use the
tables in the most recent edition of the American Society of Heating,
Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers' (ASHRAE) Handbook. You must
use the R-value shown for 50 deg.Fahrenheit, with a temperature differential
of 30 deg.Fahrenheit.

For insulation materials with foil facings, you must test the R-value of the
material alone (excluding any air spaces) under the methods listed in
paragraph (a) of this section. You can also determine the R-value of the
material in conjunction with an air space. You can use one of two methods to
do this:

You can test the system, with its air space, under ASTM C 236-89 (Reapproved
1993) or ASTM C 976-90, which are incorporated by reference in paragraph (a)
of this section. If you do this, you must follow the rules in paragraph (a)
of this section on temperature, aging and settled density.

You can add up the tested R-value of the material and the R-value of the air
space. To get the R-value for the air space, you must follow the rules in
paragraph (c) of this section.

For aluminum foil: the number of foil sheets; the number and thickness of
the air spaces; and the R-value provided by that system when the direction
of heat flow is up, down, and horizontal.

For insulation materials with foil facings, you must follow the rule that
applies to the material itself. For example, if you manufacture boardstock
with a foil facing, follow paragraph (b)(4) of this section. You can also
show the R-value of the insulation when it is installed in conjunction with
an air space. This is its "system R-value." If you do this, you must clearly
and conspicuously state the conditions under which the system R-value can be
attained.

Also see:

http://www.atlasroofing.com/download...ng_rackbro.pdf

and

http://www.reflectixinc.com/PDF/RIMA_Handbook.pdf

Wake up senile nick, R value is R value, a standardised measurement used
to measure insulations effectiveness, resistance to heat flow. Polyiso
foilfaced, Both Sides is R 7.2" new, 6.8R" stabilised. Your mythical
dreamworld of R 6 added with 2 sheets of foil does not exist anywhere in
reality or at any store on this planet, or it would be sold as R 12.8*
polyiso, and it is not.

m Ransley wrote:
Wake up senile nick, R value is R value, a standardised measurement used
to measure insulations effectiveness, resistance to heat flow. Polyiso
foilfaced, Both Sides is R 7.2" new, 6.8R" stabilised. Your mythical
dreamworld of R 6 added with 2 sheets of foil does not exist anywhere in
reality or at any store on this planet, or it would be sold as R 12.8*
polyiso, and it is not.


Senile is not the word.

Nick appears to believe that he is a reincarnation of a mythical
all-knowing, all-powerful being. His attitude towards others reinforces
this idea with almost everything he posts.

patent holders are idiots.

Facts are false.

Everyone else besides Nick are absolute morons is the message he conveys

Aluminum foil is tested for 'emissivity' not R value. That is the test
is to see how good a RADIATOR it is not how good and INSULATOR it is.
If it is used for cookware and electric power distribution, it CAN'T be
an insulator of heat or electricity.

Aluminum is therefore a RADIANT barrier, and may also act as a vapor
retarder, but it does NOT improve an INSULATION material's ability to
restrict the movement of heat, EXCEPT by REFLECTING the heat - but it
RADIATES to BOTH sides of the foil.
An AIRSPACE MUST be incorporated in order for the foil to be effective
and the literature that Nick quotes indicates this as well.

So Foil helps, BUT only when there is a air gap. Foil faced insulation
is more effective than non foil faced insulation only when there is an
air gap for the foil to radiate heat into. Even then, if there is no
circulation of that air, we get a heat buildup between the foil and the
outside sheathing that could take most of the night to dissipate.

wrote in message
...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Styrofoam is the blue material extruded by Dow Chemical. Styrofoam is a
registered trademark of Dow but often the name is mis-used when referring
to
any other type of polystyrene foam board, extruded or molded and wire cut
such as the CLOSED cell expandable polystyrene board, sometimes called
bead
board.

EPS is open cell. X (extruded) PS is closed.

Nick


Niki, Niki, Niki. You can masturbate all the equations you want, but you
can't change material at will.

I have been in the EPS business since May of 1970. I have been in every
aspect of molding expandable polystyrene beads. Packaging, insulation, ICF,
fabricated board. If it was an open cell, do you think the coffee cuts and
seafood containers would be holding liquids?

Want the names of the top chemists for this stuff at NOVA or BASF, or
Huntsman?

What is EPS?

Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) is a rigid, closed cell, plastic foam material.
EPS can be molded into a variety of shapes and sizes. EPS is typically
available in large blocks that can be cut into sheeting, architectural
detail work for use on houses and buildings, signage, floatation etc. It's
lightweight properties make it very easy to work with. Architectural EPS is
modified with a fire retardant and is usually encapsulated with an
acrylic-based finish.

EPS is totally recyclable. EPS does not contain ozone depleting CFC's or
HCFC's.

m Ransley errs again:

... R6 added with 2 sheets of foil does not exist anywhere in
reality or at any store on this planet, or it would be sold as
R 12.8* polyiso

It can work that way in the real world, but it's illegal to advertise R12.8,
according to US federal regs, because the R-value depends on the installation
conditions, which is confusing to the general public. Altho we can measure and
calculate and advertise the "system R-value," if we have the merest grasp of
physics :-)

Nick

wrote in message
...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) is a rigid, closed cell, plastic foam material.

Wrong.

Nick


My Dearest Niki,
Please call Felix at Nova Chemical. Or Warren at BASF. They will educate
you. They can even send you photos of the cellular structure of the
material. They can send you many of the technical bulletins. They can give
you the specifications.

By stating that I'm wrong on this, you merely show your inability to accept
reality. Prove me wrong. Show me the statistics. Show me the technical
data. If the people that have been making EPS since 1954 are wrong, they
would certainly appreciate you setting them right.

I didn't invent the material, I just work with it for the past 36 years.
Millions of pounds of it, tens of millions of parts made with it. Sure
Nick, you know everything.

I respectfully await your reply.
Your friend,
Ed

Nick, we demand mathimaticals of proof.

Nick, Where can I buy R 13,2 foamboard.

m Ransley wrote:

Nick, we demand mathimaticals of proof.

You can't even spell mathimaticals of proof :-)

Nick

Foamboard Nick, where can anybody buy R 12 Foamboard Nick, Post some
proof of your crackpot theorys. or get off the crack or pot.

m Ransley wrote:

Nick, Where can I buy R 13,2 foamboard.

A European lumber yard?

Nick

m Ransley wrote:

... where can anybody buy R 12 Foamboard Nick

A US lumberyard.

Post some proof of your crackpot theorys.

I did, but you didn't understand it :-) Try education.

Nick