We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

On 10 Jul 2006 23:21:06 -0700, "mcd" wrote:

We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

If you got engineered i-beam type joists, they are most likely ruined,
and/or will smell like sewerage forever. Removing them pretty much
means demolishing the entire house. I hate to tell you this, but I'd
say your house is totalled and needs to be torn down and rebuilt
entirely. Not only that, but raw sewerage contains all kinds of
bacteria and other contaminants which will likely seriously affect
your health. I highly suggest getting yourself and your family out of
there ASAP. You will most likely have to destroy all the furnishings
too, except things that were up on tables and counters. Your
insurance should pay the full value of your home, minus the land
itself and any buildings not flooded, such as maybe a garage.

The reason you lose everything is because of those engineered i-beam
joists. If you had standard timbers, they would not be damaged, and
could be chemically cleaned. But engineered i-beams become extremely
dangerous once wettened, and your floors could actually collapse. Yet
another reason to stay out of there. Plus engineered i-beams absorb
the sewerage.

All of these problems could have been prevented if you had spent
around $100 to get a backflow preventer in your house sewer pipe.

Your situation is pretty much the same as the aftermath of Katrina.
You might contact your local Red Cross and see if they will help with
temporary housing, and also see if you can get anything from FEMA.

i think if it is allowed to dry and then kilzed, it will be fine. not
sure what bearing the radiant floor has on this--what kind of system is
it? why would moisture affect it? yeah, sure you want everything new,
but unless you are an attorney with lots of time on your hands, good
luck getting the insurance company to agree to that. replacing the
joists just ain't practical.

as for the i joist somehow being prone to sucking up moisture and then
being prone to collapse, that is just ridiculous. anyone who says that
has not been around them much. what would you do if you were building a
house and it rained? they are rated to be exposed to weather during
the construction process. sure, soak em in a lake for a month and they
might show some damage, but don't over react. your i joists are fine.
I do agree a backflow preventer is a good investment.


wrote:
On 10 Jul 2006 23:21:06 -0700, "mcd" wrote:

We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

If you got engineered i-beam type joists, they are most likely ruined,
and/or will smell like sewerage forever. Removing them pretty much
means demolishing the entire house. I hate to tell you this, but I'd
say your house is totalled and needs to be torn down and rebuilt
entirely. Not only that, but raw sewerage contains all kinds of
bacteria and other contaminants which will likely seriously affect
your health. I highly suggest getting yourself and your family out of
there ASAP. You will most likely have to destroy all the furnishings
too, except things that were up on tables and counters. Your
insurance should pay the full value of your home, minus the land
itself and any buildings not flooded, such as maybe a garage.

The reason you lose everything is because of those engineered i-beam
joists. If you had standard timbers, they would not be damaged, and
could be chemically cleaned. But engineered i-beams become extremely
dangerous once wettened, and your floors could actually collapse. Yet
another reason to stay out of there. Plus engineered i-beams absorb
the sewerage.

All of these problems could have been prevented if you had spent
around $100 to get a backflow preventer in your house sewer pipe.

Your situation is pretty much the same as the aftermath of Katrina.
You might contact your local Red Cross and see if they will help with
temporary housing, and also see if you can get anything from FEMA.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Martin
Oregon

No, you're not over reacting. The insurance company, and the cleaning
company as their hired contractor, are looking out for dollars spent.
You, on the other hand, are looking out for your long term health.
Stick with your gut feelings.

There are companies that specialize in hazardous material cleanups.
Any house sustaining major damage from sewerage overflow falls into
that category. I would demand to see the cleanup companies credentials
for handling hazmat cleanups. An "idea" about what needs to be done is
not the same as an approved procedure.

Bob

"mcd" wrote in message
ps.com...
We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

Get a Public Adjuster--It'll be worth every penny and your settlement will
more than cover his fee.
MLD

mcd wrote:
We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer
will do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below
our connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and
our corner bathtub

[...]


Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

You've got the city between your butt and the sewer line.

Screw the adjustor. You should hire the meanest lawyer you can find. The
type with blood shooting from his eyeballs, fire from his throat, and venom
from his fangs! The kind that make grown men tremble, women faint, and cause
nightmares in children.

None of this insurance adjustor, city inspector crap. We're talking
sufficient money such that a piddly 10% differerence can have a big (say,
$10,000) impact on the result. Further, the consequences may not be manifest
for YEARS!

But here's something that even a spawn-of-Satan lawyer cannot (by law) tell
you: your pain-and-suffering damages are usually twice your actual damages.
It is in your interest to get all the medical tests reasonably consistent
with the hazards to which you've been exposed. Not to be an alarmist or
anything, but you could DIE. Painfully. Hideously. With giant, festering,
odiforous, fulminating, sealed-casket-type, sores.

Again, this may not be an act of God, such as a hurricane or flood, that is
routinely handled by insurance adjustors. This is possibly the result of
gross negligence or incompetence, or both, on the part of public servants,
entrusted with your welfare which they flagrantly ignored. You don't, and
can't, know until you get expert advice.

Go for the lawyer.

Hiring an independant adjuster is always a good idea. A professional
cleaning company that specializes in homes damaged from fire or flood will
probably be able to give you good advice. Sewage is absolutely one of the
nastiest things you can think of (totally the ick! factor) but don't let it
freak you out too much. Your carpets and exposed fabric surfaces along with
any exposed sheet rock (as with any flood) will have to be replaced. The
rest can be cleaned, dried out, and chemically sterilized. I am not a
construction expert so can make no claims to possible damage by the
wastewater. I am sufficiently experienced with sewage and flooding issues.
The house is not a total loss(barring structural damage), it can be fixed
without long term problems being caused by the sewage. The biggest problem
is not getting it cleaned and dried out in a timely manner which can
exacerbate the problem and cause irreperable harm (read mold and fungus fed
by a rich fertilizer). Obviously, you cannot remain in the home until it is
cleaned. Do not reenter the home if you have any cuts or abrasions. Use
gloves and solid shoes when entering the home. Wash hands, footwear, and
non-fabric objects that have been exposed to the sewage in a bleach solution
(1 part bleach, 10 parts water) to sterilize them. All homes should be
equipped with a backflow preventer, failing that, if this should threaten to
occur again...go outside and pull off your clean out plugs and let the
sewage flow to the ground outside where you can treat it with HTH, then let
it dry and rake up any remaining waste.


"mcd" wrote in message
ps.com...
We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

Thanks for the reply. My only concerns with the radiant floor system
is that it is normally attached to the subfloor and the tubes routed
through the joists. My unscientific mind tells me that when I turn up
the heat in the winter that some odor will come through.


marson wrote:
i think if it is allowed to dry and then kilzed, it will be fine. not
sure what bearing the radiant floor has on this--what kind of system is
it? why would moisture affect it? yeah, sure you want everything new,
but unless you are an attorney with lots of time on your hands, good
luck getting the insurance company to agree to that. replacing the
joists just ain't practical.

as for the i joist somehow being prone to sucking up moisture and then
being prone to collapse, that is just ridiculous. anyone who says that
has not been around them much. what would you do if you were building a
house and it rained? they are rated to be exposed to weather during
the construction process. sure, soak em in a lake for a month and they
might show some damage, but don't over react. your i joists are fine.
I do agree a backflow preventer is a good investment.


wrote:
On 10 Jul 2006 23:21:06 -0700, "mcd" wrote:

We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

If you got engineered i-beam type joists, they are most likely ruined,
and/or will smell like sewerage forever. Removing them pretty much
means demolishing the entire house. I hate to tell you this, but I'd
say your house is totalled and needs to be torn down and rebuilt
entirely. Not only that, but raw sewerage contains all kinds of
bacteria and other contaminants which will likely seriously affect
your health. I highly suggest getting yourself and your family out of
there ASAP. You will most likely have to destroy all the furnishings
too, except things that were up on tables and counters. Your
insurance should pay the full value of your home, minus the land
itself and any buildings not flooded, such as maybe a garage.

The reason you lose everything is because of those engineered i-beam
joists. If you had standard timbers, they would not be damaged, and
could be chemically cleaned. But engineered i-beams become extremely
dangerous once wettened, and your floors could actually collapse. Yet
another reason to stay out of there. Plus engineered i-beams absorb
the sewerage.

All of these problems could have been prevented if you had spent
around $100 to get a backflow preventer in your house sewer pipe.

Your situation is pretty much the same as the aftermath of Katrina.
You might contact your local Red Cross and see if they will help with
temporary housing, and also see if you can get anything from FEMA.

Thanks for all the responses. We are thankful that our insurance agent
some time ago insisted on this rider for our insurance. Thus far the
insurance has taken pretty good care of us from temp housing to
immediate clothing replacements and food. We seem to be well covered
for structural repair and personal belonging loss. They have said that
they won't cover time I was out from work or for my preliminary medical
assessment and supplements presribed to boost immune system efficiency.
I guess that is something I can ask a lawyer to go after the City on.
Again, I appreciate all the advice, we will be pursuing at the very
least an indepedent adjuster and possibly a lawyer.

Oh, and we will be putting in a backflow device!


mcd wrote:
We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

On 11 Jul 2006 04:48:20 -0700, "marson" wrote:

i think if it is allowed to dry and then kilzed, it will be fine. not
sure what bearing the radiant floor has on this--what kind of system is
it? why would moisture affect it? yeah, sure you want everything new,
but unless you are an attorney with lots of time on your hands, good
luck getting the insurance company to agree to that. replacing the
joists just ain't practical.

It may not be practical, but it's a MUST. Besides the bacteria
contamination, there will always be a risk of collapse. Maybe the
structure can be saved as long as the entire interior is removed and
stripped to the frame, then replace every joist one at a time. This
will likely require removal of the siding as well, in order to attach
the new joists.

All insulation is saturated and must be replaced, all wiring is likely
corroded, and the plumbing and heating all needs to be inspected and
possibly replaced, or at least de-contaminated. Gutting the house is
the only way to do this.

as for the i joist somehow being prone to sucking up moisture and then
being prone to collapse, that is just ridiculous. anyone who says that

Not rediculous at all. They are nothing but glued particles of
sawdust and become very weak when saturated. Ask any fire department
about the much greater risks they face when fighting fires in homes
built with both engineered I beams and roof trusses. More firemen are
injured in these type of homes than in the older homes. Thats a fact.

has not been around them much. what would you do if you were building a
house and it rained? they are rated to be exposed to weather during

Wrong again. Yes, they can get rained on, because when they are
exposed in the air they dry quickly. Bur when sandwiched between
soggy flooring sealed tightly from fresh air by vinyl flooring or
other flooring materials on one side, then soggy sheetrock on the
other side, and filled with saturated insulation, they decay very
fast. On top of that, they are contaminated with raw sewerage and
nothing will remove that. Sure, Kilz will cover the odor, but the
health threat will exist forever.

the construction process. sure, soak em in a lake for a month and they
might show some damage, but don't over react. your i joists are fine.

Soak em in a lake for ONE DAY and you will be able to break them apart
with your bare hands


What you can do, is to gut the entire house entirely. Remove all wall
coverings, all flooring (right to the joists), all insulation, all
electrical, and possibly the plumbing and heating. Then the entire
place will have to be power washed with a very strong bleach solution.
By this time, there is a good chance the siding and will have to come
off along with any house wrap, and plywood or foam board. After this
is accomplished, all engineered joists must be replaced. Then any
existing wall studs sprayed with kilz at least on the bottoms where
they were exposed.

What will remain is most likely just the foundation, house frame and
the roof. From there you will have to replace the entire interior
finishing, all exterior siding, all insulation and electrical. Any
vents or forced air pipes will be contaminated, and need to be power
cleaned or replaced.

The question arises, will it cost more to go thru all the removal and
rebuilding, possibly having to jack up the roof and walls to replace
the joists, and all the cleaning and spraying kilz, etc. Then
rebuilding the whole place, or will it cost less to completely
demolish the house with a dozer and start over. I have a feeling
demolishing and rebuilding will cost less.

I should note that I lived and worked in a city that had a major sewer
backup on several occasions. In fact I tried to save a commercial
building while it's finished basement was flooding with sewerage,
using several sump pumps. I could not pump fast enough. In this
case, all the flooding occurred in the basement so the rest of the
building was ok. However, the finished basement had to be stripped
completely to the block walls, and completely rebuilt. The inspectors
did not allow anything to remain except concrete. Every piece of wood
or any other materials had to be removed and disposed. Even the
ceiling tiles which were not affected. Then the whole basement was
decontaminated, coated with a special paint, and finally rebuilt.
During the demolition, I brought home many of the studs from the
basement walls, and after leaving them out in the rain for a few
weeks, I soaked them with bleach, then hosed them well. I built a
garden shed out of them. Legally, I was not supposed to take them,
since they were considered contaminated, and even required a special
company to come and haul the stuff to a toxic disposal site. But what
they did not know, never hurt anyone, and since I used these boards
for a non-living space, it was no big deal, once I cleaned them. Of
course they were solid boards and could be cleaned, unlike particle
boards.

I do agree a backflow preventer is a good investment.


Definately. The buildings in the city where I lived which were prone
to backups were required to install them after the 3rd backup. The
city paid for a portion of the cost. I always thought they should
have paid for ALL of the cost since it was their sewers that were
backing up.


wrote:
On 10 Jul 2006 23:21:06 -0700, "mcd" wrote:

We recently experienced 1st hand what a blockage in the city sewer will
do a house. We had a blockage occur in the city line just below our
connection. It came spouting out two showers and two toilets and our
corner bathtub filled up. After freely flowing for about 40 minutes
(we tried bucketing to stem the rising tide...) we had between 2 and 4
inches covering 80% of the house and our storage basement and finished
basement apartment got drenched from above. My questions revolve
around the adjuster and cleaning company. After taking out the
laminate flooring from above and the ceiling from below it was pretty
evident that the subfloor soaked that crap up. Same for most of the
joists (engineered i-beam type). I also have radiant floor system
attached to this section of my house.

My cleaning company is saying they can clean and seal the sub-floor
(3/4 inch plywood) and the joists. But, I'm concerned about the
radiant floor heating system and I'd rather have them replace the
sub-floor and affected joists.

Is it worth hiring an independent adjuster over this? Or am I over
reacting?

Thanks,

Martin
Oregon

If you got engineered i-beam type joists, they are most likely ruined,
and/or will smell like sewerage forever. Removing them pretty much
means demolishing the entire house. I hate to tell you this, but I'd
say your house is totalled and needs to be torn down and rebuilt
entirely. Not only that, but raw sewerage contains all kinds of
bacteria and other contaminants which will likely seriously affect
your health. I highly suggest getting yourself and your family out of
there ASAP. You will most likely have to destroy all the furnishings
too, except things that were up on tables and counters. Your
insurance should pay the full value of your home, minus the land
itself and any buildings not flooded, such as maybe a garage.

The reason you lose everything is because of those engineered i-beam
joists. If you had standard timbers, they would not be damaged, and
could be chemically cleaned. But engineered i-beams become extremely
dangerous once wettened, and your floors could actually collapse. Yet
another reason to stay out of there. Plus engineered i-beams absorb
the sewerage.

All of these problems could have been prevented if you had spent
around $100 to get a backflow preventer in your house sewer pipe.

Your situation is pretty much the same as the aftermath of Katrina.
You might contact your local Red Cross and see if they will help with
temporary housing, and also see if you can get anything from FEMA.

During the demolition, I brought home many of the studs from the
basement walls, and after leaving them out in the rain for a few
weeks, I soaked them with bleach, then hosed them well. I built a
garden shed out of them. Legally, I was not supposed to take them,
since they were considered contaminated, and even required a special
company to come and haul the stuff to a toxic disposal site. But what
they did not know, never hurt anyone, and since I used these boards
for a non-living space, it was no big deal, once I cleaned them. Of
course they were solid boards and could be cleaned, unlike particle
boards.


Sewage contaminated wood and items are not a toxic waste and do not require
disposal in anything other than a regular Class I landfill.