Hello:

Have the typical Kenmore electric clothes dryer.

While oiling a drum roller underneath, I received a pretty good electrical
shock. Really surprising, as I wasn't touching anything other than the
frame.
Was spraying a bit with WD-40 when it happened. Seemed like such an
innoculous
thing I was doing, I didn't bother unplugging

Wasn't touching any wires or other parts, to the best of my knowledge.
Plenty of room underneath to avoid them.

It was plugged in with the heavy 3 prong 220 plug.
I guess one of these prongs is the Neutral, and the other two are for the
the
two 220 V phases.

Questions:

a. What likely was the reason for the shock ?
Could it be a voltage between the neutral and a real ground (thru me) ?

b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe for
a ground ?

Thanks,
Bob

3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN circuit should
develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear on the appliance
case...

YES! I would run a wire from the dreyer case to ground on any 3 prong
220V appliance...

I have done that to mine...


Mark

Robert11 wrote:
Hello:

Have the typical Kenmore electric clothes dryer.

While oiling a drum roller underneath, I received a pretty good
electrical shock. Really surprising, as I wasn't touching anything
other than the frame.
Was spraying a bit with WD-40 when it happened. Seemed like such an
innoculous
thing I was doing, I didn't bother unplugging

Interesting question. You prompted me to do a little test and in my
test WD-40 did not conduct a current, but it did clean off contacts so that
they made a better, lower resistance connection. It made a big difference
on the contacts was was checking.

In any case I suggest that everyone make it a habit to unplug any
appliance that they are going to open up.


Wasn't touching any wires or other parts, to the best of my knowledge.
Plenty of room underneath to avoid them.

It was plugged in with the heavy 3 prong 220 plug.
I guess one of these prongs is the Neutral, and the other two are for
the the
two 220 V phases.

I am not sure of the rule, but I believe that some if not all current
three wires plugs for 240 are two legs and a ground. An appliance may not
need 120 or it may use a transformer. You may be able to tell by taking a
good look at where that third conductor goes and if it is connected to the
case.


Questions:

a. What likely was the reason for the shock ?
Could it be a voltage between the neutral and a real ground (thru
me) ?
b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe
for a ground ?

Thanks,
Bob

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Mark wrote:
3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN circuit should
develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear on the appliance
case...

???? How would that happen with just the an open circuit and no other
failure?


YES! I would run a wire from the dreyer case to ground on any 3 prong
220V appliance...

I have done that to mine...


Mark

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Robert11 wrote:

Have the typical Kenmore electric clothes dryer.

While oiling a drum roller underneath, I received a pretty good electrical
shock. Really surprising, as I wasn't touching anything other than the
frame.

Was spraying a bit with WD-40 when it happened. Seemed like such an
innoculous thing I was doing, I didn't bother unplugging

Next time unplug.

Wasn't touching any wires or other parts, to the best of my knowledge.
Plenty of room underneath to avoid them.

It was plugged in with the heavy 3 prong 220 plug.
I guess one of these prongs is the Neutral, and the other two are for the
the two 220 V phases.

Questions:

a. What likely was the reason for the shock ?
Could it be a voltage between the neutral and a real ground (thru me) ?

The casing needs to be grounded. I went back and checked mine. It is
grounded.

b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe
for a ground ?

Great idea.

Dick

According to Joseph Meehan :
Mark wrote:
3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN circuit should
develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear on the appliance
case...

???? How would that happen with just the an open circuit and no other
failure?

Depends on what you mean by open circuit. I wouldn't assume that a dryer
that's turned off is consuming _no_ power. It could have electronics that
are always on.

As for full voltage on the case, consider: in a three wire dryer/stove
connection, the two hots are connected to the elements (thru switching) to
provide 240V.

The 120V motor/clock/timer etc. are connected to one hot _and_ the third wire,
and the case is connected to the third wire too.

If you cut the third wire between the dryer and the panel, the case
becomes live if there's anything switched on on the 120V side.

If the dryer is operating at that point, what happens is that the heaters
stays on, yet the timer and motor stop.

Eg: if the motor is switched on, one side is connected to a hot, the other
side is connected to a _floating_ (not grounded) case. If you're grounded
(eg: touching a pipe, or a grounded clothes washer) and touch bare metal
on the case, you get zapped - _thru_ the component that's trying to
conduct power (eg: the motor).

I would think most likely that the OP has a neutral/grounding problem.

It's best to kill power to appliances before opening it, even if you
think it's totally off and figure you can stay away from the hot side
of the switch.

When I had to replace the heating element in our dryer a few days
ago, I killed the breaker. I didn't know for sure whether the element
switching killed _both_ hots or just one, and I didn't want to find
out the hard way. I tested it anyway to make sure I got the right
breaker.

[I didn't want to have to move the dryer out to unplug it.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Thu, 11 May 2006 14:42:44 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Mark wrote:
3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN circuit should
develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear on the appliance
case...

???? How would that happen with just the an open circuit and no other
failure?

Many 220V appliances have the case "bonded" to the neutral. If the
neutral opens, voltage can appear on the cabinet. I doubt it would be
220V though, more likely 120V through the motor or some other 120V
circuit inside the unit that taps one leg and neutral as it's current
source.

Newer homes are wired with 4 wire 220V outlets to prevent this, that
way both the neutral and ground wires have to open before this could
occur.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...
Robert11 wrote:

Have the typical Kenmore electric clothes dryer.

While oiling a drum roller underneath, I received a pretty good
electrical
shock. Really surprising, as I wasn't touching anything other than the
frame.

Was spraying a bit with WD-40 when it happened. Seemed like such an
innoculous thing I was doing, I didn't bother unplugging

Next time unplug.

Wasn't touching any wires or other parts, to the best of my knowledge.
Plenty of room underneath to avoid them.

It was plugged in with the heavy 3 prong 220 plug.
I guess one of these prongs is the Neutral, and the other two are for the
the two 220 V phases.

Questions:

a. What likely was the reason for the shock ?
Could it be a voltage between the neutral and a real ground (thru me)
?

The casing needs to be grounded. I went back and checked mine. It is
grounded.

b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe
for a ground ?

I would not count on a cold water pipe as a ground.



Great idea.

Dick

It sounds like the dryer is grounded properly. And when spraying, the can
touched a live wire or the spray sprayed into a live wire and the electrical
path went from the can through your hand/arm and then through your other
arm/hand to the frame of the dryer.

Were both arms tingling?

Also a better test to see if the spray conducts electricity is to use 240
volts for the test. I know some ohm meters are not capable of testing some
electronic components because the voltage in them is not high enough.
Perhaps this spray will conduct electricity if the voltage is high enough?
Warning! This would be a very dangerous test, so don't try this at home.

Also one time a distributor on a car was wet inside (water) and car would
not run. Spraying wd-40 on the inside contacts made the car run again.


"Robert11" wrote in message
Hello:

Have the typical Kenmore electric clothes dryer.

While oiling a drum roller underneath, I received a pretty good electrical
shock. Really surprising, as I wasn't touching anything other than the
frame.
Was spraying a bit with WD-40 when it happened. Seemed like such an
innoculous
thing I was doing, I didn't bother unplugging

Wasn't touching any wires or other parts, to the best of my knowledge.
Plenty of room underneath to avoid them.

It was plugged in with the heavy 3 prong 220 plug.
I guess one of these prongs is the Neutral, and the other two are for the
the
two 220 V phases.

Questions:

a. What likely was the reason for the shock ?
Could it be a voltage between the neutral and a real ground (thru me)
?

b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe for
a ground ?

Thanks,
Bob

According to JK :
Many 220V appliances have the case "bonded" to the neutral. If the
neutral opens, voltage can appear on the cabinet. I doubt it would be
220V though,

It essentially _can't_ be 240V. The only way you can get hit with a 240V
shock is if you touch both legs of the main simultaneously. The highest
voltage (normally! ;-) available in a house is 120V relative to ground.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Robert11" wrote in message
. ..
Hello:

Have the typical Kenmore electric clothes dryer.

While oiling a drum roller underneath, I received a pretty good electrical
shock. Really surprising, as I wasn't touching anything other than the
frame.
Was spraying a bit with WD-40 when it happened. Seemed like such an
innoculous
thing I was doing, I didn't bother unplugging

Wasn't touching any wires or other parts, to the best of my knowledge.
Plenty of room underneath to avoid them.

It was plugged in with the heavy 3 prong 220 plug.
I guess one of these prongs is the Neutral, and the other two are for the
the
two 220 V phases.

Questions:

a. What likely was the reason for the shock ?
Could it be a voltage between the neutral and a real ground (thru me)
?

Well, if you actually got a shock, then yes, it was voltage between the
neutral and the ground. Your neutral and ground are the same, and the frame
is attached to it. So if the neutral is floating, then there could be
voltage between the frame and ground.
However, the dryer wouldn't work in that condition; there would be no 120v
circuit for the control; so it is unlikely.
I think you misunderstood what happened; either you didn't get a shock, or
you got it off a hot.

b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe for
a ground ?

That would be a code violation. If your neutral is sound, the separate
ground isn't needed. If your neutral is floating, you have created a
dangerous ground loop. So don't do it. (I suppose it would be relatively
safe to unbond the ground and then ground the frame, but it is neither
necessary nor legal)

The matter certainly requires more investigation, but a water pipe is not
the solution.

yes, by full voltage I meant 120 V (not 240)V...

Mark

you have an excessive amount of faith in the rules.

if everything is wired per code for a 3 prong 220 V outlet..., and then
there should happen to be an OPEN circuit failure in the neutral
circuit anywhere in the system leading to the dryer or in the dryer
itself, the dryer case will become energized with 120 V through the 120
V clock circuit in the dryer.

The day I realized this, I lost my faith in the "code" and I added an
external ground wire to ground the case of the dryer to the washer
right next to it which has a 3 prong 120 V plug.

So your saying if my dryer case happens to touch the washer case right
next to it .....that is a code violation?

too bad

Mark



Mark

"Mark" wrote in message
oups.com...
you have an excessive amount of faith in the rules.

if everything is wired per code for a 3 prong 220 V outlet..., and then
there should happen to be an OPEN circuit failure in the neutral
circuit anywhere in the system leading to the dryer or in the dryer
itself, the dryer case will become energized with 120 V through the 120
V clock circuit in the dryer.

Yes, that is what I said. But I also said that the dryer wouldn't be
working because the 120v clock circuit would be open (except perhaps through
you.)
If your dryer isn't working, unplug it before working on it. There, your
problem solved.

The day I realized this, I lost my faith in the "code" and I added an
external ground wire to ground the case of the dryer to the washer
right next to it which has a 3 prong 120 V plug.

So your saying if my dryer case happens to touch the washer case right
next to it .....that is a code violation?

No, of course not; the circuit between the machines has many times the
resistance of the neutral, so it effectively doesn't exist.

too bad

Yeah, it is too bad. You think they write the code for fun, or to employ
more electricians? It is your house; if you want to ignore code I wish you
the best of luck.

Just fixed a good friends electric dryer. installed new element

Its a 3 wire plug 240 volts.

She has a 2 year old. The dryer is old.

Would it be a good idea to add a ground wire from the case to a good
house ground just to be on the safe side?

the area the dryer is in has a water problem. that makes me more
concerned. the washer and dryer sit on a pedastal, like a skid made of
outdoor wood. very well built, makes working on appliances hard. floor
is frequently wet.

There is no neutral in a 220 connection. Two hots, no neutral,
and a ground if it is a new enough install.

Yes, I know the really new stuff has a four wire connection that
has 2 hots, ground, and now a neutral in case the modern appliance
needs 110 volts.

I would check the ground circuit and the case ground with regard
to getting shocked. Electricity should not go to the case unless
something is wrong.
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Mark" wrote in message
oups.com...
3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN circuit
should
develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear on the
appliance
case...

YES! I would run a wire from the dreyer case to ground on any 3
prong
220V appliance...

I have done that to mine...


Mark

no I don't want to ignore code, almost always the code makes sense....

in this particular case it doesn't. In fact they no longer allow 3
prong 220V outlets in new construction for this very reason....

I want to use my brain and I want my house to be safe, and if that
means I need to run a ground wire between the dryer and washer, so be
it.

Mark

Dick Adams posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.


b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe
for a ground ?

Great idea.

So all his plumbing is now electrically live? Yeah great idea - NOT
--
Tekkie

Bill posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

This would be a very dangerous test, so don't try this at home.

So Bub where is he supposed to run this test? Supermarket? Police Station?
Underwriters Labs?

Your whole post was a waste of time and dangerous - get off the Internet!
--
Tekkie

Chris Lewis wrote:

[I didn't want to have to move the dryer out to unplug it.]

Then switch off the breaker or pull the fuse.

JK wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2006 14:42:44 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Mark wrote:
3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN circuit
should develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear on the
appliance case...

???? How would that happen with just the an open circuit and no
other failure?

Many 220V appliances have the case "bonded" to the neutral.

I did not know that. It sounds like a bad idea to me.

If the
neutral opens, voltage can appear on the cabinet. I doubt it would be
220V though, more likely 120V through the motor or some other 120V
circuit inside the unit that taps one leg and neutral as it's current
source.

Newer homes are wired with 4 wire 220V outlets to prevent this, that
way both the neutral and ground wires have to open before this could
occur.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Yes, I would do that. Good idea.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just fixed a good friends electric dryer. installed new element

Its a 3 wire plug 240 volts.

She has a 2 year old. The dryer is old.

Would it be a good idea to add a ground wire from the case to a good
house ground just to be on the safe side?

the area the dryer is in has a water problem. that makes me more
concerned. the washer and dryer sit on a pedastal, like a skid made of
outdoor wood. very well built, makes working on appliances hard. floor
is frequently wet.

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
.. .
JK wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2006 14:42:44 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Mark wrote:
3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN
circuit
should develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear
on the
appliance case...

???? How would that happen with just the an open circuit
and no
other failure?

Many 220V appliances have the case "bonded" to the neutral.

I did not know that. It sounds like a bad idea to me.

....

Actually, I don't think it's true. Neither UL nor CSA have
allowed anything like that for over my 35 year's experience, and
the current rules, including EC definitely do not allow it. An
exposed metal part must be either connected to earth, or "double
insulated" (which does NOT mean two layers of insulation). The
only safety spec number I recall at the moment is the old UL1459
or I could provide more backup. Retired, don't cha know g.

Pop

your right about the four wires, its the code now I believe
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
.. .
JK wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2006 14:42:44 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

Mark wrote:
3 prong 220Volt plugs are dangerous because if an OPEN circuit
should develop in the neutral wire, full voltage can appear on the
appliance case...

???? How would that happen with just the an open circuit and no
other failure?

Many 220V appliances have the case "bonded" to the neutral.

I did not know that. It sounds like a bad idea to me.

If the
neutral opens, voltage can appear on the cabinet. I doubt it would be
220V though, more likely 120V through the motor or some other 120V
circuit inside the unit that taps one leg and neutral as it's current
source.

Newer homes are wired with 4 wire 220V outlets to prevent this, that
way both the neutral and ground wires have to open before this could
occur.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:42:34 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...
Robert11 wrote:

Have the typical Kenmore electric clothes dryer.

While oiling a drum roller underneath, I received a pretty good
electrical
shock. Really surprising, as I wasn't touching anything other than the
frame.

Was spraying a bit with WD-40 when it happened. Seemed like such an
innoculous thing I was doing, I didn't bother unplugging

Next time unplug.

Wasn't touching any wires or other parts, to the best of my knowledge.
Plenty of room underneath to avoid them.

It was plugged in with the heavy 3 prong 220 plug.
I guess one of these prongs is the Neutral, and the other two are for the
the two 220 V phases.

Questions:

a. What likely was the reason for the shock ?
Could it be a voltage between the neutral and a real ground (thru me)
?

The casing needs to be grounded. I went back and checked mine. It is
grounded.

b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water pipe
for a ground ?

I would not count on a cold water pipe as a ground.


My dryer uses a 3-prong plug. There is a nearby 120V receptacle that
is grounded. Do you think it's OK to use that?



Great idea.

Dick


--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Thu, 11 May 2006 19:59:19 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"Mark" wrote in message
roups.com...
you have an excessive amount of faith in the rules.

if everything is wired per code for a 3 prong 220 V outlet..., and then
there should happen to be an OPEN circuit failure in the neutral
circuit anywhere in the system leading to the dryer or in the dryer
itself, the dryer case will become energized with 120 V through the 120
V clock circuit in the dryer.

Yes, that is what I said. But I also said that the dryer wouldn't be
working because the 120v clock circuit would be open (except perhaps through
you.)

If the nothing but the heater is working, that should be shut off soon
by a thermal circuit breaker or fuse.

If your dryer isn't working, unplug it before working on it. There, your
problem solved.

The day I realized this, I lost my faith in the "code" and I added an
external ground wire to ground the case of the dryer to the washer
right next to it which has a 3 prong 120 V plug.

So your saying if my dryer case happens to touch the washer case right
next to it .....that is a code violation?

No, of course not; the circuit between the machines has many times the
resistance of the neutral, so it effectively doesn't exist.

too bad

Yeah, it is too bad. You think they write the code for fun, or to employ
more electricians? It is your house; if you want to ignore code I wish you
the best of luck.


--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On 11 May 2006 17:17:19 -0700, "Mark" wrote:

no I don't want to ignore code, almost always the code makes sense....

in this particular case it doesn't. In fact they no longer allow 3
prong 220V outlets in new construction for this very reason....


And it'll be a very long time before no one has them.

I want to use my brain and I want my house to be safe, and if that
means I need to run a ground wire between the dryer and washer, so be
it.


I'm considering doing that here, or at least between the dryer and the
120V receptacle (that is grounded).

Mark
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:42:34 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:
....

I would not count on a cold water pipe as a ground.


My dryer uses a 3-prong plug. There is a nearby 120V receptacle that
is grounded. Do you think it's OK to use that?



I don't believe that will satisfy code. The ground and all conductors,
I believe, must be in the same cable or conduit. For a number of reasons it
could be a hazard under certain conditions.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:42:34 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

....

b. Should I run a wire from the dryer case to a good cold water
pipe for a ground ?

I would not count on a cold water pipe as a ground.


My dryer uses a 3-prong plug. There is a nearby 120V receptacle that
is grounded. Do you think it's OK to use that?



I should point out that using a cold water pipe is not a good idea
because it may not be a good ground due to a number of reasons like maybe
someone using a length of plastic pipe or some other reason and then if you
have an fault in the dryer, it may make you kitchen sink hot. Very bad
idea. I also believe it is against modern codes.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

all service entrances are bonded to ground rods and cold water pipe
system.

its interesting to note this could result in a electrical powered water
system

On 13 May 2006 18:24:55 -0700, "
wrote:

all service entrances are bonded to ground rods and cold water pipe
system.

its interesting to note this could result in a electrical powered water
system


The code for Dryers and Ranges was changed during WWII to allow 3 wire
instead of 4 wires to save copper for the war effort. Within recent
years it has changed back because people were getting shocks from
dryers.

The problem with the 3 wire system is that the neutral (which is a
current carrying conductor in a dryer) is also being used as a safety
ground. Most dryer motors run on 120 V. even though the heating
elements are 240 V. I believe the dryer light also runs on 120 V.

In an ideal world, the neutral is supposed to be at ground potential,
but there are all sorts of reasons why this may not be true. You can
have bad connections, or the overall ground system of the house may be
marginal.

To fix this properly, you would need to run a new line with two hots,
an isolated neutral, and a ground and install a four wire receptacle
for the dryer.

Dryer cords come in 3 wire and 4 wire models and the code has
"grandfathered" existing 3-wire installations.

Since you are one of the ones actually getting shocked by your
installation, it may be a good idea to do the full fix.

Beachcomber

On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:15:28 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:



I'm considering doing that here, or at least between the dryer and the
120V receptacle (that is grounded).


That hokey "at least" is a code violation. The only point where
ground and neutral are allowed to be connected are in your main
service panel. The "ground" is never supposed to carry continuous
current, only fault current.

Beachcomber


Maybe you misunderstood. I was talking about the ground connection,
which will be completely separate from neutral.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:15:28 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:



I'm considering doing that here, or at least between the dryer and the
120V receptacle (that is grounded).


That hokey "at least" is a code violation. The only point where
ground and neutral are allowed to be connected are in your main
service panel. The "ground" is never supposed to carry continuous
current, only fault current.

Beachcomber


Maybe you misunderstood. I was talking about the ground connection,
which will be completely separate from neutral.

I think you misunderstand. In your 3-wire dryer, the case is connected to the
neutral. Running a wire from the case to a ground means that you've
cross-connected neutral and ground.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I'm considering doing that here, or at least between the dryer and the
120V receptacle (that is grounded).


That hokey "at least" is a code violation. The only point where
ground and neutral are allowed to be connected are in your main
service panel. The "ground" is never supposed to carry continuous
current, only fault current.

Beachcomber


Maybe you misunderstood. I was talking about the ground connection,
which will be completely separate from neutral.

I think you misunderstand. In your 3-wire dryer, the case is connected to the
neutral. Running a wire from the case to a ground means that you've
cross-connected neutral and ground.

--
Absolutely right Doug! If you do it that way you will have issues
with the 3-wire vs. the 4-wire plugs. Think about it for a while!
That Safety Ground is supposed to come to the 4 wire plug. That is
the only place it is supposed to go. If you've got the 4 wire
receptacle and it is grounded, then the Neutral is properly lifted and
no longer serves as the case safety ground.

What you are talking about is a hard-wire non-standard installation.
Maybe it will work, maybe not... If you house burns down, your
insurance might not pay if they discover your "non-code" compliant
installation. If you sell your house along with the laundry
equipment to a new owner, they are not going to have a clue what you
did and you place them in danger also.

Beachcomber

Beachcomber wrote:

I'm considering doing that here, or at least between the dryer and the
120V receptacle (that is grounded).


That hokey "at least" is a code violation. The only point where
ground and neutral are allowed to be connected are in your main
service panel. The "ground" is never supposed to carry continuous
current, only fault current.

Beachcomber

A 3 prong dryer meets code and the neutral is connected to the
case...thats the root cause of the problem, they never should have
allowed that, but they did and there are many dryers out there like
that and IMO it is unsafe. ....

IMO it is unsafe because an OPEN neutral fault can put dangerous
voltage on the dryer case. So even though it meets code it is unsafe
....that is the reason for the so called hard wired ground.....

I don't see how connecting the CASE of an appliance to GROUND can be
considered a problem, if anything it only makes the situation safer,
the problem is that neutral is also connected to the case which is what
the code stupidly allowed...

Mabe the right answer is to modify the dryer to disconnect neutral from
the case and then run a seperate ground for the case.

I'm curious, has there ever been a intance of a person electrocuted due
to an open neutral in a 3 prong appliance like this?

Mark


..

Mark

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:15:28 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:

I'm considering doing that here, or at least between the dryer and the
120V receptacle (that is grounded).

That hokey "at least" is a code violation. The only point where
ground and neutral are allowed to be connected are in your main
service panel. The "ground" is never supposed to carry continuous
current, only fault current.

Beachcomber


Maybe you misunderstood. I was talking about the ground connection,
which will be completely separate from neutral.

If you want to add an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) to the dryer
circuit you will need to run a fourth conductor in that circuit. If you
try to use an EGC from another circuit then that EGC will not be large
enough to cause the dryer circuits Over Current Protective Device (OCPD)
to open quickly and you risk cross connecting the dryer circuits neutral
to the laundry receptacle circuits EGC. That would cause neutral
current to divide over the two parallel paths and it could raise the
touch potential of the laundry equipment to dangerous levels.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

In article , (Beachcomber) wrote:

That Safety Ground is supposed to come to the 4 wire plug. That is
the only place it is supposed to go. If you've got the 4 wire
receptacle and it is grounded, then the Neutral is properly lifted and
no longer serves as the case safety ground.

What you are talking about is a hard-wire non-standard installation.
Maybe it will work, maybe not... If you house burns down, your
insurance might not pay if they discover your "non-code" compliant
installation. If you sell your house along with the laundry
equipment to a new owner, they are not going to have a clue what you
did and you place them in danger also.

Well, that's a bit overblown IMO -- the risk from this practice isn't fire,
but electrocution.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

According to Pop :
Many 220V appliances have the case "bonded" to the neutral.

I did not know that. It sounds like a bad idea to me.

Actually, I don't think it's true. Neither UL nor CSA have
allowed anything like that for over my 35 year's experience, and
the current rules, including EC definitely do not allow it. An
exposed metal part must be either connected to earth, or "double
insulated" (which does NOT mean two layers of insulation). The
only safety spec number I recall at the moment is the old UL1459
or I could provide more backup. Retired, don't cha know g.

Up until a few years ago, the US NEC permitted stoves and dryers
to be connected using three wire connections. Two hots, and
a third wire that acts as _both_ a neutral (for 120V loads
like clocks and 120V accessory outlets) and for bonding the
frame to ground.

Canadian CEC hasn't permitted this for at least 30 years.

US NEC has changed so that it requires 4 wire circuits just
like Canadian CEC does. The difference being that the NEC
has more "grandfathering" than the CEC does.

In CEC, when you install a new stove or dryer, you must bring
existing circuits up to current spec. In NEC, you only have to bring
existing circuits up to current spec if you're changing the circuit.

You can't buy a 3 wire cordset in Canada (I don't think we _ever_
required 3 wire outlets. It went directly from 4 wire direct
connect to 4 wire outlets). You still can in the US.

Yeah, I think the NEC permissivity was dumb too.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Bob :
Chris Lewis wrote:

[I didn't want to have to move the dryer out to unplug it.]

Then switch off the breaker or pull the fuse.

Ahem. Didn't you notice that I said I _did_ switch off the
breaker?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to DanG :

There is no neutral in a 220 connection. Two hots, no neutral,
and a ground if it is a new enough install.

A stove/dryer is _not_ a 220 connection. It's a 240/120 connection.
Stove/dryers have always needed at least three wires to operate.

Yes, I know the really new stuff has a four wire connection that
has 2 hots, ground, and now a neutral in case the modern appliance
needs 110 volts.

Stoves and dryers need 110V connections.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.