Chris Lewis wrote:
According to DanG :

There is no neutral in a 220 connection. Two hots, no neutral,
and a ground if it is a new enough install.

A stove/dryer is _not_ a 220 connection. It's a 240/120 connection.
Stove/dryers have always needed at least three wires to operate.

Some stoves (I don't know about dryers) have a transformer to supply
120V to those devices that need it.


Yes, I know the really new stuff has a four wire connection that
has 2 hots, ground, and now a neutral in case the modern appliance
needs 110 volts.

Stoves and dryers need 110V connections.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On Sun, 14 May 2006 18:14:08 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:15:28 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:



I'm considering doing that here, or at least between the dryer and the
120V receptacle (that is grounded).


That hokey "at least" is a code violation. The only point where
ground and neutral are allowed to be connected are in your main
service panel. The "ground" is never supposed to carry continuous
current, only fault current.

Beachcomber


Maybe you misunderstood. I was talking about the ground connection,
which will be completely separate from neutral.

I think you misunderstand. In your 3-wire dryer, the case is connected to the
neutral. Running a wire from the case to a ground means that you've
cross-connected neutral and ground.

So you assume I don't know to disconnect the ground-neutral jumper
at the dryer.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

According to Joseph Meehan :
Chris Lewis wrote:
According to DanG :

There is no neutral in a 220 connection. Two hots, no neutral,
and a ground if it is a new enough install.

A stove/dryer is _not_ a 220 connection. It's a 240/120 connection.
Stove/dryers have always needed at least three wires to operate.

Some stoves (I don't know about dryers) have a transformer to supply
120V to those devices that need it.

I've never seen one of those. It may be true with some
all-electronic stoves. But certainly not anything with a 120V
accessory outlet.

Transformers, for anything but very tiny loads, would be more
expensive to manufacture than simply providing a fourth wire,
or using devices that don't need 120V.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

US NEC has changed so that it requires 4 wire circuits just
like Canadian CEC does. The difference being that the NEC
has more "grandfathering" than the CEC does.
.. . . .

Yeah, I think the NEC permissivity was dumb too.

Maybe so, but I don't know of anyone that's been
killed by it yet, and what's the point of being
a PITA, if it's not going to save lives? Most
people change the circut eventually, anyway.

A 3 prong dryer meets code and the neutral is connected to the
case...thats the root cause of the problem, they never should have
allowed that, but they did and there are many dryers out there like
that and IMO it is unsafe. ....

IMO it is unsafe because an OPEN neutral fault can put dangerous
voltage on the dryer case. So even though it meets code it is unsafe
...that is the reason for the so called hard wired ground.....

I don't see how connecting the CASE of an appliance to GROUND can be
considered a problem, if anything it only makes the situation safer,
the problem is that neutral is also connected to the case which is what
the code stupidly allowed...

Mabe the right answer is to modify the dryer to disconnect neutral from
the case and then run a seperate ground for the case.

This is exactly what the 4 wire appliance cords do when they are
connected this way and is considered the safest and most up-to-date
installation.

But if you have a 4 wire plug, you need a four-wire receptacle with
the two hots, neutral, and safety ground running back to the service
panel. If there are only three wires here because you have the older
type installation, then you are one wire short and will have a problem
unless you upgrade the wiring.

Some have suggested "customizing" this arrangement by running a
separate external ground from the frame of the dryer to some other
grounded point (possibly the 120 V. junction box for the washer).

I am not aware of any section of the code that allows this. It
defeats the concept of completely disconnecting the appliance from the
wall with just the plug and I imagine that it could possilby lead to
other problems as well.

Beachcomber







There are many examples of 240 Volt circuits with no neutral and a
safety ground. These are typically used in the workshop for heavy
duty drills presses, lathes, and other power tools. These are
perfectly safe and meet the code requirements.

(in the US at least), you can't

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Joseph Meehan :
Chris Lewis wrote:
According to DanG :

There is no neutral in a 220 connection. Two hots, no neutral,
and a ground if it is a new enough install.

A stove/dryer is _not_ a 220 connection. It's a 240/120 connection.
Stove/dryers have always needed at least three wires to operate.

Some stoves (I don't know about dryers) have a transformer to
supply 120V to those devices that need it.

I've never seen one of those. It may be true with some
all-electronic stoves. But certainly not anything with a 120V
accessory outlet.

I would think that is likely true.


Transformers, for anything but very tiny loads, would be more
expensive to manufacture than simply providing a fourth wire,
or using devices that don't need 120V.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On Mon, 15 May 2006 15:30:01 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:


A 3 prong dryer meets code and the neutral is connected to the
case...thats the root cause of the problem, they never should have
allowed that, but they did and there are many dryers out there like
that and IMO it is unsafe. ....

IMO it is unsafe because an OPEN neutral fault can put dangerous
voltage on the dryer case. So even though it meets code it is unsafe
...that is the reason for the so called hard wired ground.....

I don't see how connecting the CASE of an appliance to GROUND can be
considered a problem, if anything it only makes the situation safer,
the problem is that neutral is also connected to the case which is what
the code stupidly allowed...

Mabe the right answer is to modify the dryer to disconnect neutral from
the case and then run a seperate ground for the case.

This is exactly what the 4 wire appliance cords do when they are
connected this way and is considered the safest and most up-to-date
installation.

But if you have a 4 wire plug, you need a four-wire receptacle with
the two hots, neutral, and safety ground running back to the service
panel. If there are only three wires here because you have the older
type installation, then you are one wire short and will have a problem
unless you upgrade the wiring.

Some have suggested "customizing" this arrangement by running a
separate external ground from the frame of the dryer to some other
grounded point (possibly the 120 V. junction box for the washer).

I am not aware of any section of the code that allows this. It
defeats the concept of completely disconnecting the appliance from the
wall with just the plug and I imagine that it could possilby lead to
other problems as well.

Beachcomber


Yes, that would make it harder to disconnect it. How about putting a
4-wire cord on the dryer (properly, not forgetting to remove the
ground-neutral jumper), replacing the receptacle, and connecting it's
ground to the ground wire on the 120V receptacle?







There are many examples of 240 Volt circuits with no neutral and a
safety ground. These are typically used in the workshop for heavy
duty drills presses, lathes, and other power tools. These are
perfectly safe and meet the code requirements.

(in the US at least), you can't
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

I am not aware of any section of the code that allows this. It
defeats the concept of completely disconnecting the appliance from the
wall with just the plug and I imagine that it could possilby lead to
other problems as well.



Yes, that would make it harder to disconnect it. How about putting a
4-wire cord on the dryer (properly, not forgetting to remove the
ground-neutral jumper), replacing the receptacle, and connecting it's
ground to the ground wire on the 120V receptacle?


Sorry if I sound to be on the same note over and over again on this.
Electrically, what you propose should work, although it is not code.

I have a friend whose house is wired with all white wires. Does it
work? Yes... but God help the electrician who has to deal with that
when adding outlets or upgrading circuits.

My brother bought a building where the electrical junctions were
behind holes in the plasterboard. No junction boxes... just single
insulated wires twisted together with wire nuts and plastered over.
(This was not knob and tube wiring by the way - which would have been
infinitely safer)

Does it work? Yes, but after attempting any electrical work on this
house you might just decide that blowing your brains out is a better
option.

You might be in your house for 10, 20, 30 years. You might die there
but your non-code dryer installation will live on and someone who
doesn't know what you did is going to be exposed to the consequences
of what you did (should they need to replace the dryer).

Beachcomber

The 'WD' in WD-40 stands for 'Water Displacement', so by spraying the
(water) wet contacts, you sprayed the water away from the contacts and
left behind WD-40.

I have used WD-40 in the past to dislodge dead fire ants from the
contactor in an A/C unit. I have to admit I cut all the power to the
unit before removing the cover (I only LOOK stupid!). Never had any
problems with electrical shorts or anything of that type after
restoring the power, so I would say that at consumer-type voltages you
are pretty safe that WD-40 is not going to conduct.

For more interesting history on WD-40, see their Web site:
http://www.wd40.com/AboutUs/our_history.html.


On Thu, 11 May 2006 11:00:42 -0700, "Bill"
wrote:

It sounds like the dryer is grounded properly. And when spraying, the can
touched a live wire or the spray sprayed into a live wire and the electrical
path went from the can through your hand/arm and then through your other
arm/hand to the frame of the dryer.

Were both arms tingling?

Also a better test to see if the spray conducts electricity is to use 240
volts for the test. I know some ohm meters are not capable of testing some
electronic components because the voltage in them is not high enough.
Perhaps this spray will conduct electricity if the voltage is high enough?
Warning! This would be a very dangerous test, so don't try this at home.

Also one time a distributor on a car was wet inside (water) and car would
not run. Spraying wd-40 on the inside contacts made the car run again.