An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim

mjb920 wrote:
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim

Hi,
You have a short or partial short down stream from breaker.
Use multi-meter for trouble-shooting

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 05:27:02 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:

mjb920 wrote:
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim

Hi,
You have a short or partial short down stream from breaker.
Use multi-meter for trouble-shooting

How would a meter find it?

Doesn't he have to visually examine the cable looking for where the
short is, and then open the cable and separate the black and red.

Or do the whole cable like that until he gets to the part where the
short is? Then a meter would verify it, but it would be mostly the
looking at it and the splitting open.

"mjb920" wrote in message
oups.com...
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim


Was it working ok before and then suddenly went bad or was it bad from
the time it was wired? Most shorts are near the ends and due to sloppy work.
Unusual for a good cable to suddenly go bad somewhere in the middle unless
someone drove a nail through it or a rat got to it.

Bob

It was working before, but I am assuming that it was wired incorrectly
from the beginning. Right now we are in the middle of a kitchen
remodel, so I had to move a couple outlets. That's when I noticed that
both circuits were live even with only one breaker on. I am testing
the bare ends of the 12/3 at the cable sticking out of the wall, so I
don't see where any shorts would be, but I'll check for nails.

RobertM wrote:
"mjb920" wrote in message
oups.com...
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim


Was it working ok before and then suddenly went bad or was it bad from
the time it was wired? Most shorts are near the ends and due to sloppy work.
Unusual for a good cable to suddenly go bad somewhere in the middle unless
someone drove a nail through it or a rat got to it.

Bob

"mjb920" wrote in message
ups.com...
It was working before, but I am assuming that it was wired incorrectly
from the beginning. Right now we are in the middle of a kitchen
remodel, so I had to move a couple outlets. That's when I noticed that
both circuits were live even with only one breaker on. I am testing
the bare ends of the 12/3 at the cable sticking out of the wall, so I
don't see where any shorts would be, but I'll check for nails.


Are you using a meter to test these wires? If you are, stop and use a
pigtail socket and a light bulb. You may be getting a false reading from
the meter.


RobertM wrote:
"mjb920" wrote in message
oups.com...
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets
and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the
breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim


Was it working ok before and then suddenly went bad or was it bad
from
the time it was wired? Most shorts are near the ends and due to sloppy
work.
Unusual for a good cable to suddenly go bad somewhere in the middle
unless
someone drove a nail through it or a rat got to it.

Bob

I was using a voltage detector before. Using the pigtail and light,
the GFI circuit breaker turns on the black and the dishwasher circuit
breaker turns on the red. 240 volts across the red and black; 120
volts across the red and neutral and the black and neutral. Thanks!

John Grabowski wrote:
"mjb920" wrote in message
ups.com...
It was working before, but I am assuming that it was wired incorrectly
from the beginning. Right now we are in the middle of a kitchen
remodel, so I had to move a couple outlets. That's when I noticed that
both circuits were live even with only one breaker on. I am testing
the bare ends of the 12/3 at the cable sticking out of the wall, so I
don't see where any shorts would be, but I'll check for nails.


Are you using a meter to test these wires? If you are, stop and use a
pigtail socket and a light bulb. You may be getting a false reading from
the meter.


RobertM wrote:
"mjb920" wrote in message
oups.com...
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets
and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the
breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim


Was it working ok before and then suddenly went bad or was it bad
from
the time it was wired? Most shorts are near the ends and due to sloppy
work.
Unusual for a good cable to suddenly go bad somewhere in the middle
unless
someone drove a nail through it or a rat got to it.

Bob

"mjb920" wrote in message
oups.com...
I was using a voltage detector before. Using the pigtail and light,
the GFI circuit breaker turns on the black and the dishwasher circuit
breaker turns on the red. 240 volts across the red and black; 120
volts across the red and neutral and the black and neutral. Thanks!


Glad to help. Thanks for posting back with the results.



John Grabowski wrote:
"mjb920" wrote in message
ups.com...
It was working before, but I am assuming that it was wired incorrectly
from the beginning. Right now we are in the middle of a kitchen
remodel, so I had to move a couple outlets. That's when I noticed
that
both circuits were live even with only one breaker on. I am testing
the bare ends of the 12/3 at the cable sticking out of the wall, so I
don't see where any shorts would be, but I'll check for nails.


Are you using a meter to test these wires? If you are, stop and use a
pigtail socket and a light bulb. You may be getting a false reading
from
the meter.


RobertM wrote:
"mjb920" wrote in message
oups.com...
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI
outlets
and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the
breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the
12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim


Was it working ok before and then suddenly went bad or was it
bad
from
the time it was wired? Most shorts are near the ends and due to
sloppy
work.
Unusual for a good cable to suddenly go bad somewhere in the middle
unless
someone drove a nail through it or a rat got to it.

Bob

mjb920 wrote:
It was working before, but I am assuming that it was wired incorrectly
from the beginning. Right now we are in the middle of a kitchen
remodel, so I had to move a couple outlets. That's when I noticed
that both circuits were live even with only one breaker on. I am
testing the bare ends of the 12/3 at the cable sticking out of the
wall, so I don't see where any shorts would be, but I'll check for
nails.


Is there 120 or 240 across the red and black?

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

mjb920 wrote:
It was working before, but I am assuming that it was wired incorrectly
from the beginning. Right now we are in the middle of a kitchen
remodel, so I had to move a couple outlets. That's when I noticed that
both circuits were live even with only one breaker on. I am testing
the bare ends of the 12/3 at the cable sticking out of the wall, so I
don't see where any shorts would be, but I'll check for nails.

RobertM wrote:

"mjb920" wrote in message
groups.com...

An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim


Was it working ok before and then suddenly went bad or was it bad from
the time it was wired? Most shorts are near the ends and due to sloppy work.
Unusual for a good cable to suddenly go bad somewhere in the middle unless
someone drove a nail through it or a rat got to it.

Bob


Hi,
Kitchen couter top duplex receptacles have two separate circuit feeding
each plug in. You have to break the link to separate those two
receptacles to be fed separately. Wonder if mistake is made here.

"mjb920" wrote in message
oups.com...
An island in my kitchen has two circuits - one for the GFCI outlets and
one for the dishwasher. There is one 12/3 cable coming out of the
slab. When I turn on either the breaker for the outlets or the breaker
for the dishwasher both the red and black wires go hot. Is the 12/3
wired wrong at the breaker box? Thanks for any help.

Jim


Has anything been changed recently such as an outlet replaced?

You have a shared neutral circuit. usually these types of circuits are used
on the dishwasher and disposal and normally the kitchen outlets would have
their own circuit(s). If you replace an outlet on this type of circuit then
you must remember to break off the tab between the 2 screws on the hot side.

At the panel both breakers should be next to each other and they should have
the handles tied together with some sort of clip. When both breakers are on
then you should measure 240V between the red and black. If they are not like
this then the neutral (white) could get overloaded.

Kevin

Is it ok to use 3 wire in this way?

I wouldn't think it is safe to connect 3 wire to the breaker box using
two breakers next to each other. As you said, you would end up with
240V potential at the end of the wire (pretty dangerous for the next
guy). I always run wires using a separate breaker for each piece of
wire(romex) unless it is a 240V circuit for range, AC, etc. The only
time I use 3 wire is for a 3 way switch circuit, ceiling fan or
something of that nature. Of course I'm not a licensed electrician,
just weekend warrior with a cool tool pouch.

In article . com, "RayV" wrote:
Is it ok to use 3 wire in this way?

Absolutely. As long as it's done properly, that is.

I wouldn't think it is safe to connect 3 wire to the breaker box using
two breakers next to each other. As you said, you would end up with
240V potential at the end of the wire (pretty dangerous for the next
guy).

You end up with 240V between the red and black, yes, but so what? It's no more
dangerous than a 240V circuit for a stove or a dryer.

And, in fact, it's *very* dangerous to *not* do it that way. If two circuits
share a neutral, the two hot wires *must* be on opposite legs of the 240V
service, and have a 240V potential between them. That way, the current in the
neutral wire is the *difference* of the currents in the two hot wires (e.g.
12A on the red wire and 17A on the black means 5A on the neutral). If,
instead, you put the two hot wires on the same leg of the service, the
potential between them is 0V and the current in the neutral wire is the *sum*
of the currents in the two hot wires: 12A on the red wire and 17A on the black
means 29A on the neutral, which overloads it and may cause a fire.

Google on "Edison circuit" for more information.

I always run wires using a separate breaker for each piece of
wire(romex) unless it is a 240V circuit for range, AC, etc. The only
time I use 3 wire is for a 3 way switch circuit, ceiling fan or
something of that nature. Of course I'm not a licensed electrician,
just weekend warrior with a cool tool pouch.

For this application, you should use a 240V breaker also. That way, throwing
one breaker disconnects both hot legs simultaneously.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Good info. Thanks.

You end up with 240V between the red and black, yes, but so what? It's no more
dangerous than a 240V circuit for a stove or a dryer.

I'm with Ray on this one. I think it is considerably more dangerous
than a 240V circuit for a stove or dryer. If you're working on a
circuit for a dryer or stove, one would expect there to be 240V between
two hots. But if I happen to be working on a std outlet, most people
would never expect there to be 240V between the two hots. For example,
I could see someone having things opened up for testing, and allowing
the two hots to touch each other, thinking they would be on the same
phase, which in every case that I have seen, they are.

Not saying you can;t do this, but anytime you start to deviate from
what is common or expected, you have to ask, is it worth it, just to
save another neutral run?

Good discussion. As for OP's question, I'm wondering in addition to
Kevin's suggestion of replaced outlet, if fixture or switch was
replaced and red and black wire nutted together. But this would imply
both are on same phase with previously noted overloaded neutral. Maybe
this island was a renovation, with wiring by non-electrician?

wrote:
You end up with 240V between the red and black, yes, but so what? It's no more
dangerous than a 240V circuit for a stove or a dryer.


I'm with Ray on this one. I think it is considerably more dangerous
than a 240V circuit for a stove or dryer. If you're working on a
circuit for a dryer or stove, one would expect there to be 240V between
two hots. But if I happen to be working on a std outlet, most people
would never expect there to be 240V between the two hots. For example,
I could see someone having things opened up for testing, and allowing
the two hots to touch each other, thinking they would be on the same
phase, which in every case that I have seen, they are.

Not saying you can;t do this, but anytime you start to deviate from
what is common or expected, you have to ask, is it worth it, just to
save another neutral run?


Seems to me it is "common" and should be "expected". Looks like an
argument for calling an electrician.

If this is on 2 phases and 240V between hots I hope the comments of John
Grabowski weren't missed - test with a light bulb. A hot-to-hot short
would trip the breakers. If on the same phases - 120V between hots - it
is connected wrong and the neutral can overload.

bud--

In article .com, wrote:
You end up with 240V between the red and black, yes, but so what? It's no more
dangerous than a 240V circuit for a stove or a dryer.

I'm with Ray on this one. I think it is considerably more dangerous
than a 240V circuit for a stove or dryer. If you're working on a
circuit for a dryer or stove, one would expect there to be 240V between
two hots. But if I happen to be working on a std outlet, most people
would never expect there to be 240V between the two hots.

If a circuit is fed by a double-pole breaker and has two hot wires, one red
and the other black, that would in fact be the normal assumption by someone
who understands residential wiring systems: that it's an Edison circuit, and
the potential between them is 240V. At a minimum, even to the uninformed it
should be a signal to check a little further to find out what's going on
before proceeding.

For example,
I could see someone having things opened up for testing, and allowing
the two hots to touch each other, thinking they would be on the same
phase, which in every case that I have seen, they are.

Allowing the two hots to touch is asking for trouble, regardless of the
type of circuit. Good practice, when opening up live circuits for testing, is
to make sure that *nothing* is touching anything else.

Not saying you can;t do this, but anytime you start to deviate from
what is common or expected, you have to ask, is it worth it, just to
save another neutral run?

So who's suggesting deviating from the norm? This *is* a common situation.
It's "unexpected" only to those who are unfamiliar with Edison circuits.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I asked my brother about this today and he told me about a discussion
he had with an electrician a while back. The electrician told him that
he sometimes does these circuits but "would always put the breakers on
the 1 & 5 or some other combination so that you couldn't get 240V". My
brother asked the guy about overloading the nuetral and the electrician
told him "you don't have to worry about that as long as the breakers
are good".

Yes, this guy was a licensed electrician that works residential
construction. So I restate my opinion that I don't think it's a good
idea because the next guy (weekend warrior) might only know enough to
get himself hurt.

In article .com, "RayV" wrote:
I asked my brother about this today and he told me about a discussion
he had with an electrician a while back. The electrician told him that
he sometimes does these circuits but "would always put the breakers on
the 1 & 5 or some other combination so that you couldn't get 240V". My
brother asked the guy about overloading the nuetral and the electrician
told him "you don't have to worry about that as long as the breakers
are good".

He's wrong. Dangerously wrong.

Yes, this guy was a licensed electrician that works residential
construction.

I wonder if he really does have a license... or just claims to. I used to live
in a county that had *no* licensing requirement for electricians. Any idiot
who wanted to, could call himself an "electrician" and go into business.
Perhaps this guy is that type of "electrician".

So I restate my opinion that I don't think it's a good
idea because the next guy (weekend warrior) might only know enough to
get himself hurt.

Put it on a double-pole breaker, and it's perfectly safe.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.