We went to have the house my kid is buying inspected. They had it
winterized and then de-winterized. When they de-winterized it they left
open the drain on the water heater. When the inspector came in three
days later, we found water all over furnace room on the second floor,
bowing in the garage ceiling and all along the drywall on the wall in
the garage and soaked carpets in the hall way.
The sellers "fixed" the water problems.. in less than 8 hours of
work. I am suggesting that I should guffaw loudly at the assertion that
the problem was fixed.
It looks like they replaced the drywall in the garage ceiling and
walls. They aren't giving me a real clear answer on what they did with
the insulation and are stating that there was no black spots on the
subflooring so no need to change out that. They did not even change the
carpet padding. Also apparently had no fans or extraction machines there
for more than 5-6 hours.
Am I being shafted as much as I think I am.

In article . com,
"louie" wrote:

you're only being shafted if the sale goes through. If there's an
inspection clause in the purchase contract, use it. If the seller
gives trouble, offer to continue with the sale so long as the seller
agrees to fix any future problems arising from this (say within a year
or so). Make sure the agreement (in writing) includes some provision
for an escrow account to be held by a neutral 3rd party until either
the year has passed or until it's needed for mold remediation.

Seriously, I would try my hardest to back out of this. Get legal help
if necessary.

Year be long enough? I am also wondering how much should we escrow
for mold. Seems like a rather open-ended amount to escrow.

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article . com,
"louie" wrote:

you're only being shafted if the sale goes through. If there's an
inspection clause in the purchase contract, use it. If the seller
gives trouble, offer to continue with the sale so long as the seller
agrees to fix any future problems arising from this (say within a year
or so). Make sure the agreement (in writing) includes some provision
for an escrow account to be held by a neutral 3rd party until either
the year has passed or until it's needed for mold remediation.

Seriously, I would try my hardest to back out of this. Get legal help
if necessary.

Year be long enough? I am also wondering how much should we escrow
for mold. Seems like a rather open-ended amount to escrow.

I wouldn't want an escrow. I would want to see that this damage was
repaired correctly right now. Mold takes a long time to grow and if it
grows in areas that were covered up, like the garage ceiling, how will
you even know it's there? If this is corrected right now, mold is not
an issue. Later, it can be a big one.

This water flow was found soon after it happened. What is important is
that you be able to verify that the areas were in fact correctly dried
out. At the very least, you are entitled to another home inspection of
these areas and the seller should pay for it. That inspection should
include cutting a hole in the garage ceiling to see what they did
there.

I agree that it's very suspicious if all this was repaired in 8 hours.
The garage ceiling, walls, carpeted areas upstairs, etc would need to
be opened up and allowed to dry for at least several days. Using some
de-humidification eqpt would be appropriate too. I'd ask to see
receipts for whatever was done, which they should have as it likely
will be a claim to their insurance company.

I don't know how much, you may want to call around to some mold-removal
contractors to see if they can give you a ballpark. They would also be
good ones to ask how long to write the contract addendum for. The
seller will likely NOT go for this and will kick and scream the whole
way. I only suggest it if you have no other way out of the contract.

I would call a company that specialize in this type of work and ask
what the acceptable industry practices are.

If you are not getting straight answers from the seller, I would be
real concerned and seriously consider backing out of the deal. An
escrow account is a good ideal but do you really want the hassle? Get
this resolve NOW before he has your money. Once the deal closes you
lose all your leverage. This is his problem. Once you close it is your
problem.

I find it odd that the carpet pad was not replaced. With that amount of
water, I would have guessed (heavy emphasis on the word guess since
this is not my area of expertise) that they would of pulled up the
carpet and pad and allowed the sub-floor to dry out. Once the floor has
dried out, It can be inspected for damage and replaced if necessary. If
the sub-floor was tongue and grove wood planks, it is probably ok. If
it was flake board, it could be trouble. As for the ceiling, the
insulation should have been removed and the cavity allowed to dry. Bear
in mind that as far as I know, mold needs water to grow. You need to
research this or talk with a mold expert.

If you go through with this, I would demand that you be able to pull
the carpet and pad up and inspect the floor below.

wrote:
no way did they fix it right so fast. typical seller wants it fast and
cheap.

get a folloup inspection of the area with a future coverage clause. A
home I owned had that for odors but I knew it wouldnt be a problem.

if they want a fast sale you might say we will take 5 grand to forget
about it since by law they will be required to tell all future buyers
of the accident....


What makes you think by law a seller has to tell all future buyers of a
water leakage accident that was fixed and is no longer a defect. You
sure don't have to do that here in NJ. If something is repaired,
that's the end of it. Suppose I have a roof leak, find it and fix it.
Are you saying I have to tell future buyers about that too? Or how
about if a window went bad and I replaced that?

I agree that if it was not done properly, which it sounds like could be
the case, then that needs to be addressed. But that's different than
saying the seller has to tell all buyers about it.




gives you bargaining power. you are in charge bargain to save bucks.

what shape was the rest of the home?

In article . com,
" wrote:

no way did they fix it right so fast. typical seller wants it fast and
cheap.

get a folloup inspection of the area with a future coverage clause. A
home I owned had that for odors but I knew it wouldnt be a problem.

if they want a fast sale you might say we will take 5 grand to forget
about it since by law they will be required to tell all future buyers
of the accident....

gives you bargaining power. you are in charge bargain to save bucks.

what shape was the rest of the home?

It is a 10 year old house. The other things the inspector noted,
include raised shingle on end of the house. There was a valley where a
couple of gables (is that the right term) come together and the gutter
stopped at one side of the valley so water dripped off of the roof, down
the siding and onto the ground (this was the way the house was
originally built), rust flakes noted in the water heater chamber (which
wasn't turned on for obvious reasons being in a pond. One thing we will
definitely have the person look at on the reinspection), A/C not checked
because too cold, there was some deterioration of the insulation, track
doors in the front had "not been cut well", carpets are newer but needed
to be stretched, someone had put paint down the garbage disposal and
stopped up the drain (which was noted and will be replaced, noted before
we went in), the aerators for most of the sinks were gone or stopped up
(a function of city water).
We insisted on fixing the valley, the garbage disposal and the drain
and the door right off.

In article ,
(m Ransley) wrote:

I dought the carpet is any good now, it will likely smell even if
profesionaly cleaned. Mold will die when the walls dry, bad drywall will
be visable but all damage may not occur for weeks till everything drys
completely. A moisture meter should be used and a pro to go over what
flooded. I would not accept their word, verify everything yourself. Also
did the house freeze, then all pipes and traps must checked out for
freeze damage.

I know for a fact that they winterized it and then whoever
de-winterized it did not fully close the drain valve on the heater and
we were off to the races.

On 30 Mar 2006 09:48:14 -0800, "louie" wrote:

I don't know how much, you may want to call around to some mold-removal
contractors to see if they can give you a ballpark. They would also be
good ones to ask how long to write the contract addendum for. The
seller will likely NOT go for this and will kick and scream the whole
way. I only suggest it if you have no other way out of the contract.

Figure out what you would do if it was your house already and
the water heater blew up. Estimate what that would cost you,
and ask them to credit you that much plus %10 stupid tax.
(don't call it that)

wrote:
What makes you think by law a seller has to tell all future buyers of
a water leakage accident that was fixed and is no longer a defect.
You sure don't have to do that here in NJ. If something is repaired,
that's the end of it. Suppose I have a roof leak, find it and fix
it. Are you saying I have to tell future buyers about that too? Or
how about if a window went bad and I replaced that?

As to the roof leak, yes (even in New Jersey).

Obligations to disclose information about a property vary from state to
state.
Under some state laws the seller and the seller's broker, if there is
one, are required to disclose all facts materially affecting the value
or desirability of the property which are known or accessible only to
him or her.

Travis Jordan wrote:
wrote:
What makes you think by law a seller has to tell all future buyers of
a water leakage accident that was fixed and is no longer a defect.
You sure don't have to do that here in NJ. If something is repaired,
that's the end of it. Suppose I have a roof leak, find it and fix
it. Are you saying I have to tell future buyers about that too? Or
how about if a window went bad and I replaced that?

As to the roof leak, yes (even in New Jersey).

That's complete BS. Following that logic, owners would have to keep a
log of every repair ever made to a house. Should I tell them that in
the summer of 1988 I had to use a plunger on a toilet too? LOL Have
you ever even bought or sold a house? I've done it lots of times and
no seller ever disclosed that kind of nonsense to me, nor did I to
anyone else. If it was a roof leak and it was repaired correctly,
that's the end of it, period.



Obligations to disclose information about a property vary from state to
state.
Under some state laws the seller and the seller's broker, if there is
one, are required to disclose all facts materially affecting the value
or desirability of the property which are known or accessible only to
him or her.

And since when does a repair that an owner made to fix a roof leak
materially affect the value of the property? Sure, if the seller was
told by a home inspector that the foundation on one side is sinking and
unsound, that would be something materially affecting the value of the
property. But that is way different than a roof leak that was fixed.

wrote:
That's complete BS. Following that logic, owners would have to keep a
log of every repair ever made to a house. Should I tell them that in
the summer of 1988 I had to use a plunger on a toilet too? LOL
Have you ever even bought or sold a house? I've done it lots of
times and no seller ever disclosed that kind of nonsense to me, nor
did I to anyone else. If it was a roof leak and it was repaired
correctly, that's the end of it, period.

Sure, I've bought a sold a few houses over the years.

http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/adoption/dcado517.htm

EXCERPT:
The property condition disclosure statement shall be in the following
form and contain, at a minimum, the following information. Additional
information may be requested if, in the opinion of the real estate
licensee, and under the facts and circumstances of a particular real
estate transaction, it would be appropriate to do so.

SELLER'S PROPERTY CONDITION

DISCLOSURE STATEMENT

Property Address: ______________

Seller: _______

The purpose of this Disclosure Statement is to disclose, to the best of
Seller's knowledge, the condition of the Property, as of the date set
forth below. The Seller is aware that he or she is under an obligation
to disclose any known material defects in the Property even if not
addressed in this printed form. Seller alone is the source of all
information contained in this form. All prospective buyers of the
Property are cautioned to carefully inspect the Property and to
carefully inspect the surrounding area for any off-site conditions that
may adversely affect the Property. Moreover, this Disclosure Statement
is not intended to be a substitute for prospective buyer's hiring of
qualified experts to inspect the Property.

/snip/

ROOF

Yes No Unknown

4. Age of roof _______
5. Has roof been replaced or repaired since seller bought the property?
6. Are you aware of any roof leaks?
7. Explain any "yes" answers that you give in this section:

Travis Jordan wrote:
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/adoption/dcado517.htm

Oh yes, I forgot this paragraph which deals directly with the leaking
water heater:

40. Are you aware of any leaks, backups, or other problems relating to
any of the plumbing systems and fixtures (including pipes, sinks, tubs
and showers), or of any other water or sewage related problems? If
"yes," explain: _______

In PA the disclosure statement is very complete and very binding. A
nearby neighbor didnt note they had a occasional sewer problem.no
biggie every year or two

When it backed up for the new owner, they had a plumber in who happened
to know the first plumber needed terracota line replaced

The OLD owner because they didnt note the problem ended up paying for a
entire new sewre line and driveway replacement.plus yard restoration
Irecently heard the entire mess cost them about 15 grand plus lawyer
fees, or perhapos that included lawyer fees.the nearby neighbor didnt
know for sure but had spoken with the old owner at a mall. she had to
take out a loan to pay the new owner

Travis Jordan wrote:
Travis Jordan wrote:
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/adoption/dcado517.htm

Oh yes, I forgot this paragraph which deals directly with the leaking
water heater:

40. Are you aware of any leaks, backups, or other problems relating to
any of the plumbing systems and fixtures (including pipes, sinks, tubs
and showers), or of any other water or sewage related problems? If
"yes," explain: _______



The water heater isn't leaking. A valve was left open which resulted
in a small flood. If it was correctly fixed, then there is no leaking,
no backup, nor any other problem that needs to be disclosed.

Travis Jordan wrote:
wrote:
That's complete BS. Following that logic, owners would have to keep a
log of every repair ever made to a house. Should I tell them that in
the summer of 1988 I had to use a plunger on a toilet too? LOL
Have you ever even bought or sold a house? I've done it lots of
times and no seller ever disclosed that kind of nonsense to me, nor
did I to anyone else. If it was a roof leak and it was repaired
correctly, that's the end of it, period.

Sure, I've bought a sold a few houses over the years.

http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/adoption/dcado517.htm

EXCERPT:
The property condition disclosure statement shall be in the following
form and contain, at a minimum, the following information. Additional
information may be requested if, in the opinion of the real estate
licensee, and under the facts and circumstances of a particular real
estate transaction, it would be appropriate to do so.

SELLER'S PROPERTY CONDITION

DISCLOSURE STATEMENT

Property Address: ______________

Seller: _______

The purpose of this Disclosure Statement is to disclose, to the best of
Seller's knowledge, the condition of the Property, as of the date set
forth below. The Seller is aware that he or she is under an obligation
to disclose any known material defects in the Property even if not
addressed in this printed form. Seller alone is the source of all
information contained in this form. All prospective buyers of the
Property are cautioned to carefully inspect the Property and to
carefully inspect the surrounding area for any off-site conditions that
may adversely affect the Property. Moreover, this Disclosure Statement
is not intended to be a substitute for prospective buyer's hiring of
qualified experts to inspect the Property.

/snip/

ROOF

Yes No Unknown

4. Age of roof _______
5. Has roof been replaced or repaired since seller bought the property?
6. Are you aware of any roof leaks?
7. Explain any "yes" answers that you give in this section:



Well you got me on the roof repair issue. Apparently this was adopted
here in commie NJ within the last two years, which I guess should not
surprise me, as this is one of the most corrupt and over regulated
states in the country, where politicians would rather waste everyone's
time on feel good regulation like this, rather than address real
problems, like govt spending and taxes that are out of control. I'm
sure lots of people will be surprised when they go to sell their house
and are asked to provide answers about routine repairs of no
consequence that they made years ago. According to this, if a shingle
blew off 20 years ago, or there was a small leak around the flashing,
the owner now has to disclose it, which shows the mentality of the
morons that write this crap.

YUP!!!

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
We went to have the house my kid is buying inspected. They had it
winterized and then de-winterized. When they de-winterized it they left
open the drain on the water heater. When the inspector came in three
days later, we found water all over furnace room on the second floor,
bowing in the garage ceiling and all along the drywall on the wall in
the garage and soaked carpets in the hall way.
The sellers "fixed" the water problems.. in less than 8 hours of
work. I am suggesting that I should guffaw loudly at the assertion that
the problem was fixed.
It looks like they replaced the drywall in the garage ceiling and
walls. They aren't giving me a real clear answer on what they did with
the insulation and are stating that there was no black spots on the
subflooring so no need to change out that. They did not even change the
carpet padding. Also apparently had no fans or extraction machines there
for more than 5-6 hours.
Am I being shafted as much as I think I am.

mold info at:
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/homeowner.htm

also look at ebay and search for "snake camera" or endoscope or sewer
camera.

wrote:
Apparently this was adopted
here in commie NJ within the last two years

Don't feel singled out -- the majority of states now have similar
disclosure documents. I suppose too many sellers tried to pawn off
known house defects onto inexperienced or novice buyers, and the
backlash is what resulted in this regulation.

Thanks for the input from everyone. She decided to walk (actually
more like run) away.

Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the input from everyone. She decided to walk (actually
more like run) away.

With supply up and house prices declining now in most parts of the
country she'll get a better deal on the next one.

I would of tried to get a BIG discount after reminding the current
owner the flood HAS to be disclosed to all future shoppers.

but I enjoy home repair, my wife doesnt like it at all....