Quite possible Ted lived in a cabin that size. Was he off the grid too?

Abby Normal wrote:

Quite possible Ted lived in a cabin that size. Was he off the grid too?

I think he was pretty far off the grid.

Nick

Abby Normal misses the point again:

2000x8/60= 267 CFM infiltration from natural effects, The exhaust fan
or the outdoor evap cooler are still going to be able to over power
this even with the air flow rates established for a mere 10,000 Btu/hr
sensible gain.

That infiltration removes water vapor, so the exhaust fan can run less,
with less water consumption than an outdoor cooler which needs outdoor
airflow to evaporate water, for the same house air conditions.

Nick

Abby Normal wrote:

Infiltration will only be a factor when the systems are cycled off,
under less than a design load.

That's what controls are for :-) Internal schemes can work better than
outdoor coolers, maintaining the same indoor air conditions with less
water and fan energy...

But that Mastercool MMB10 cooler has a much higher cooling capacity
with outdoor vs mixed indoor and outdoor air, which cuts the net output
way down from 69K to 3K Btu/h, so we need a lot more wet surface, eg
a damp slab or basement or crawlspace or watered indoor wetland/planter.

With the arrangement below, the cooler moves 2K cfm of air with
wi = (155x0.00545+(2K-155)0.012)/2K = 0.0115 and Pai = 0.5428 "Hg,
so it might evaporate 4.78 lb/h. If 4.5C(wi-wo) = 4.78, C = 162 cfm,
which makes wi = 0.001147, which makes Pai = 0.5147 "Hg, which makes
P = 4.79, and so on...

For more cooling capacity with dry outdoor air, we might put one near
a window inside a house with a $55 Lasko 2155A 16" 90 W 2470 cfm intake
fan in the window and use the fan thermostat to turn on the cooler when
the room temp rises to 80 F and a humidistat to turn on the fan when
the indoor RH rises to 56%, with 1-way plastic film dampers in a box
between the cooler and the window to force outdoor fan air to flow
through the cooler pad when the window fan is running and make indoor
air flow through the cooler when the window fan is not running, like
this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:

| |
| |
---------
| |llld| |
|c| d| | outdoors
|o| d|f|
2K cfm ==|o| d|a| == 170 cfm With the window fan off, indoor air
|l| d|n| would flow in through left and right
|e| d| | dampers lll and rrr. With the fan on,
|r| d| | ddd would open and the fan air would
| |rrrd| | force lll and rrr closed.
---------
| |

The box above isn't worth building, if it only increases the cooling
capacity from 3K to 3.2K Btu/h, and if the MMB10 uses 5 lb/h of water
and 3.5x120 = 420 watts of electrical power, we are likely better off
with a $69 5K Btu/h 10 EER 500 watt window AC.

20 PAO=.1*EXP(17.863-9621/(460+110))'outdoor vapor pressure ("Hg)
30 PWO=EXP(17.863-9621/(460+78))'cooler vapor pressure ("Hg)
40 WO=.62198/(29.921/PAO-1)'outdoor humidity ratio
50 WI=.012'indoor humidity ratio
60 PWC=EXP(17.863-9621/(460+80))'cooler water vapor pressure ("Hg)
70 FOR N=1 TO 5
80 WC=(WO*C+WI*(2000-C))/2000'cooler humidity ratio
90 PAC=29.921/(1+.62198/WC)'cooler air vapor pressure ("Hg)
100 P=6.9*(PWC-PAC)/(PWO-PAO)'water evaporation rate (lb/h)
110 C=P/(4.5*(WI-WO))'outdoor airflow (cfm)
120 Q=1000*P-(90-80)*C'sensible cooling with 90 F outdoor air (Btu/h)
130 PRINT N;C,P,Q
140 NEXT N

1 161.9926 4.657094 3037.168
2 170.067 4.889222 3188.552
3 170.4698 4.900802 3196.104
4 170.4899 4.901381 3196.481
5 170.4909 4.901409 3196.5

Nick

10 Nick$="The Indoor Scheme is a Dog named Rube"
20 Print Nick$
30 INPUT "Is wet bulb important?"; ANSWER$
40 IF ANSWER$="Y" OR ANSWER$="y" THEN END
50 GO TO 10

10 An$ = "?serac kcuf eht ohW"
20 for L = len(an$) to 1 Step -1
30 Print instr$(An$,L,1)
40 Next L
50 End

MMB 10, a portable swamp cooler. Could wheel it inside a room, or could
have it out in your garage to spot cool you.

Look at their data then for air at 80 F and 50% consider that indoor
air ( a 70F supply temp), look at the data for 100F and 10%, consider
that outside air (a 71F supply temp).

You are going to maintain a home then at 80F in a 100 ambient.

If a single MMB 10 could act just on outside air, you would most likely
need 3 indoor units to do what a single outdoor unit could do. You
would be running a significant exhaust on the indoor scheme as well. It
would be approaching mechanically moving 4 times as much air as a
compared to a single outdoor unit.

Where does the 90F in line 120 suddenly come from? All other references
to ambient in your GW jib is for 110F.

That MMB will use a lot more than 5 lb/hr of water if it moves 2000
CFM,
http://www.adobeair.com/info-product...rformance.html

5 lb/hr must be a typo

... that Mastercool MMB10 cooler has a much higher cooling capacity
with outdoor vs mixed indoor and outdoor air, which cuts the net output
way down from 69K to 3K Btu/h...

Oops. That only applies on planets where 100 Btu can evaporate
a pound of water (Abby, aren't you checking all this? :-) On earth,
it looks like it can deliver 30.4K Btu/h, with a remote exhaust fan...

20 TAS=110'spec outdoor temp (F)
30 RHS=10'spec outdoor RH (%)
40 DTS=32'spec temp diff (F)
50 PAO=RHS/100*EXP(17.863-9621/(460+TAS))'spec outdoor vapor pressure ("Hg)
60 PWO=EXP(17.863-9621/(460+(TAS-DTS)))'spec cooler vapor pressure ("Hg)
70 CS=2000'spec cfm
80 PS=DTS*CS*1.08/1000'spec water evaporation rate (lb/h)
90 WO=.62198/(29.921/PAO-1)'spec outdoor humidity ratio
100 TI=80'indoor temp setpoint (F)
110 PWI=EXP(17.863-9621/(460+TI))'indoor cooler vapor pressure ("Hg)
120 WI=.012'indoor humidity ratio setpoint
130 PAI=29.921/(1+.62198/WI)'cooler air vapor pressure ("Hg)
140 P=PS*(PWI-PAI)/(PWO-PAO)'indoor water evaporation rate (lb/h)
150 C=P/(4.5*(WI-WO))'outdoor airflow with remote exhaust (cfm)
160 Q=1000*P-(90-80)*C'sensible cooling with Ta = 90 F (Btu/h)
170 PRINT C,P,Q

ext airflow water cooling
(cfm) (lb/h) (Btu/h)

1622.744 46.65193 30424.49

And a box and an intake window fan can increase the cooling 23%...

140 PIND=PS*(PWI-PAI)/(PWO-PAO)'indoor evaporation rate (lb/h)
150 PSWP=PS*(PWI-PAO)/(PWO-PAO)'swamp evaporation rate (lb/h)
160 PRINT PS,PIND,PSWP
170 C=2000'outdoor airflow with local intake (cfm)
180 P=4.5*C*(WI-WO)'average evaporation rate (lb/h)
190 Q=1000*P-(90-80)*C'sensible cooling with Ta = 90 F (Btu/h)
200 F=(P-PIND)/(PSWP-PIND)'swamp fraction
210 PRINT C,P,Q,F

water evaporation rates (lb/h)
spec indoor swamp

69.12 46.65193 75.62949

ext airflow water cooling swamp
(cfm) (avg lb/h) (Btu/h) fraction

2000 57.4976 37497.6 .3742781

For more cooling capacity with dry outdoor air, we might put one near
a window inside a house with a $55 Lasko 2155A 16" 90 W 2470 cfm intake
fan in the window and use the fan thermostat to turn on the cooler when
the room temp rises to 80 F and a humidistat to turn on the fan when
the indoor RH rises to 56%, with 1-way plastic film dampers in a box
between the cooler and the window to force outdoor fan air to flow
through the cooler pad when the window fan is running and make indoor
air flow through the cooler when the window fan is not running, like
this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:

| |
| |
---------
| |llld| |
|c| d| | outdoors
|o| d|f|
2K cfm ==|o| d|a| == 2K cfm With the window fan off, indoor air
|l| d|n| would flow in through left and right
|e| d| | dampers lll and rrr. With the fan on,
|r| d| | ddd would open and the fan air would
| |rrrd| | force lll and rrr closed.
---------
| |

80 F 56%| window fan cooler fan cooler water
--------------|-----------------------------------------------
1. no no | off off off
2. no yes | on off off dehum
3. yes no | off on on indoor
4. yes yes | on off on swamp

Case 3 would maintain indoor comfort with less water than an external
swamp cooler, for a house with significant natural air leakage, ie
for almost all houses.

Nick

For our friends down under...

20 TAS=(110-32)/1.8'spec outdoor temp (C)
30 RHS=10'spec outdoor RH (%)
40 DTS=32/1.8'spec temp diff (C)
50 PAO=RHS/100*EXP(18.761-5248/(273+TAS))'spec outdoor vapor pressure (kPa)
60 PWO=EXP(18.761-5248/(273+(TAS-DTS)))'spec cooler vapor pressure (kPa)
70 CS=2000/2119'spec airflow (m^3/s)
80 QS=1200*CS*DTS'spec cooling power (watts)
90 PS=QS/2450000!'spec water evaporation rate (kg/s)
100 WO=.62198/(101.325/PAO-1)'spec outdoor humidity ratio
110 TI=(80-32)/1.8'indoor temp setpoint (C)
120 PWI=EXP(18.761-5248/(273+TI))'indoor cooler vapor pressure (kPa)
130 WI=.012'indoor humidity ratio setpoint
140 PAI=101.325/(1+.62198/WI)'cooler air vapor pressure (kPa)
150 P=PS*(PWI-PAI)/(PWO-PAO)'indoor water evaporation rate (kg/s)
160 C=P/(1.2*(WI-WO))'outdoor airflow with remote exhaust (m^3/s)
170 TA=(90-32)/1.8'outdoor temp (C)
180 Q=2450000!*P-1200*(TA-TI)*C'sensible cooling with Ta (C) (watts)
190 PRINT C,P,Q

ext airflow water flow cooling
(m^3/s) (kg/s) (watts)

.6835968 5.391054E-03 8650.772

With an 8651/420 = 20.6 COP and a 70.3 EER. I'd skip the special box and
put the cooler near a window with a 1-way plastic film intake damper, with
the exhaust fan and its film damper on the other side of the room. The box
only adds capacity vs efficiency.

Nick

20 TAS=(110-32)/1.8'spec outdoor temp (C)
30 RHS=10'spec outdoor RH (%)
40 DTS=32/1.8'spec temp diff (C)
50 PAO=RHS/100*EXP(18.761-5248/(273+TAS))'spec outdoor vapor pressure (kPa)
60 PWO=EXP(18.761-5248/(273+(TAS-DTS)))'spec cooler vapor pressure (kPa)
70 CS=2000/2119'spec airflow (m^3/s)
80 QS=1200*CS*DTS'spec cooling power (watts)
90 PS=QS/2450000!'spec water evaporation rate (kg/s)
100 WO=.62198/(101.325/PAO-1)'spec outdoor humidity ratio
110 TI=(80-32)/1.8'indoor temp setpoint (C)
120 PWI=EXP(18.761-5248/(273+TI))'indoor cooler vapor pressure (kPa)
130 WI=.012'indoor humidity ratio setpoint
140 PAI=101.325/(1+.62198/WI)'cooler air vapor pressure (kPa)
150 P=PS*(PWI-PAI)/(PWO-PAO)'indoor water evaporation rate (kg/s)
160 C=P/(1.2*(WI-WO))'outdoor airflow with remote exhaust (m^3/s)
170 TA=(90-32)/1.8'outdoor temp (C)
180 Q=2450000!*P-1200*(TA-TI)*C'sensible cooling with Ta (C) (watts)
190 PRINT C,P,Q

ext airflow water flow cooling
(m^3/s) (kg/s) (watts)

.6835968 5.391054E-03 8650.772

With an 8651/420 = 20.6 COP and a 70.3 EER. I'd skip the special box and
put the cooler near a window with a 1-way plastic film intake damper, with
the exhaust fan and its film damper on the other side of the room. The box
only adds capacity vs efficiency.

Then again, the MMB10 cooler (which Adobe says can evaporate 3.2 gpm into
105 F air with a 65 F wet bulb) costs $298, and we might raise the COP...

With an 80 F sat vapor pressure of 1.047 "Hg and an indoor vapor pressure
of 0.566 "Hg at wi = 0.012, we might evaporate 0.1(Pw-Pa) = 0.0481 lb/h
from a square foot of damp surface in slow-moving air, ie make 30 lb/h of
water vapor with 30/0.048 = 624 ft^2 of surface in a 1'x2'x4' vertical
shoebox water sculpture near a window with a 1-way plastic film damper,
with a 2 watt Honeywell 6161B1000 motorized damper in another window.

If the sculpture contains 40 2'x4' 4 mm Coroplast sheets with 4 mm spacers
(about $80), that's 640 ft^2. The bottom might be a folded Coroplast tank
with a float valve and a fountain pump. We might sandwich the sheets with
vertical corrugations and horizontal spacers together and pump water into
a plastic film manifold at the bottom and let it exude from corrugations
at the top and run down the sides. Initial film coverage might improve as
mineral films build. We could clean it by pumping vinegar...

We could turn on a 10 watt fountain pump that can move 1 gpm up 5' with
an 80 F thermostat and open the damper when the indoor RH rises to 56%,
making 8500 watts of cooling with 10 watts (the damper only draws power
when moving) with a COP of 850 and a 2900 EER :-)

Nick

20 TA=93.6'max average temp, Phoenix in May (F)
30 WO=.0045'outdoor humidity ratio
40 TI=80'indoor temp setpoint (F)
50 PWI=EXP(17.863-9621/(460+TI))'wet surface vapor pressure ("Hg)
60 WI=.012'indoor humidity ratio setpoint
70 PAI=29.921/(1+.62198/WI)'indoor air vapor pressure ("Hg)
80 EVAPRATE=.1*(PWI-PAI)'evaporation rate (lb/h-ft^2)
90 EVAPAREA=2*2*4*40'evaporation area (ft^2)
100 P=EVAPRATE*EVAPAREA'indoor water evaporation rate (lb/h)
110 RV=P/(4.5*(WI-WO))'average outdoor ventilation rate (cfm)
120 FANCAP=2*RV'reversible fan capacity (cfm)
130 EFF=.9'air-air heat exchanger effectiveness
140 TV=TA-EFF*(TA-TI)'incoming fresh air temp (F)
150 CCAP=1000*P-1.08*(TV-TI)*RV'sensible cooling capacity (Btu/h)
160 PRINT P,FANCAP,TV,CCAP

water flow fan cap fresh air cooling
(lb/h) (cfm) temp (F) (Btu/h)

30.78896 1824.531 81.36 29449.03

When indoor air rises to 80 F, we might evaporate 30.78 lb/h of water into
slow-moving air from a 1'x2'x4' vertical water sculpture made from 40 2'x4'
4 mm Coroplast sheets with spacers (about $80, including some 3M 4693H glue)
in a folded Coroplast tank with a float valve. Sandwich the sheets together
with vertical corrugations and horizontal spacers and a plastic film manifold
at the bottom, with water flowing out corrugations at the top and running
down both sides. Initial film coverage might improve as mineral films build,
until we clean it by pumping vinegar. Harbor Freight's $5 10 watt fountain
pump can do 1 gpm with a 5' head.

When the indoor RH rises to 56%, we might run Lasko's $53 2155A 2470 cfm 90W
reversible fan with a cycle timer in a wall that divides the house into 2
partitions to make a bidirectional "Shurcliff lung" air-air heat exchanger.
A 40'x60'x8' tall house with 1600' of 6" walls has 800 ft^3 of stud cavities.
If they contain 800 pounds of unfaced fiberglass insulation with a 144 Btu/F
heat capacity and lots of surface and we move 1824 ft^3 of air with 29 Btu/F
through it, the heat capacity ratio is 20%, so we might get 90% effectiveness.

And walls with inflowing air might gain less heat from the outdoors...
http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/8cimbabi.pdf has an equation for the dynamic
metric U-value of a breathing wall, as corrected:

Ud = VRhoaCa/(e^(VRhoaCaRs)-1) W/m^2K, where

V is the air velocity in meters per second,
Rhoa is air density, 1.2 kg/m^3,
Ca is the air's specific heat, 1000 J/(kg-K), and
Rs is the wall's static thermal resistance in m^2-K/W.

Using V = 1/3600 (1 meter per HOUR :-), and Rs = 5.7 m^2K/W (a US R32 wall),
Ud = 0.058 W/m^2, like a US R98 wall. A more typical V = 10 meters per hour
makes Ud = 1.7x10^-8 W/m^2K, like a US wall with an R-value of 334 million :-)

Nick

In alt.home.repair Oscar wrote:

: A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
: just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.
Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools nearby air.
You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler
and more humid air through the house. It then exits the house through open
windows (to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).


-- Andy Barss

Andrew Barss wrote
Oscar wrote

Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from
-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.

A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.

Duh.

Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools nearby air.

Duh.

You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler and more
humid air through the house. It then exits the house through open windows

Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.

(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).

He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.

In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:

Andrew Barss wrote
Oscar wrote

Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from
-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.

A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.

Duh.

Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools nearby air.

Duh.

You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler and more
humid air through the house. It then exits the house through open windows

Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.

(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).

He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.

anyone read Rex Robert's book? "Your Engineered House"
advocates natural air flow. Low vents and high exit vents to promote the
natural air flow as heat rises.
We love ceiling fans too. And a light color for the roof. the garage
sports a wind turbine. Cool!

--
If you see yourself in others, then whom can you harm?

Crusader george wrote:
In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:


Andrew Barss wrote

Oscar wrote

Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from
-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.

A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.

Duh.


Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools nearby air.

Duh.


You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler and more
humid air through the house. It then exits the house through open windows

Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.


(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).

He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.


anyone read Rex Robert's book? "Your Engineered House"
advocates natural air flow. Low vents and high exit vents to promote the
natural air flow as heat rises.
We love ceiling fans too. And a light color for the roof. the garage
sports a wind turbine. Cool!


Swamp coolers only work in LOW humidity areas, and they rely on cheap
access to water.

Desert Southwest is one such place.

The way to make them work better is to invest in a 1000psi to 2000psi
water pump and pump the water thru very fine nozzles to create a fog of
ultra fine water drops. These drops FLASH over to vapor phase when
they touch almost anything. Restaurants in the Desert Southwest use
this technique to allow patrons to eat dinner outside in the
summertime. Water quality is a concern as the nozzles are so tiny.
Reverse Osmosis filtration helps greatly with this issue, and minimizes
the mineral residue (ultra distilled water would work even better, but
is more costly)

Robert Gammon wrote:
Crusader george wrote:
In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:


Andrew Barss wrote

Oscar wrote

Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from
-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.

A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.

Duh.


Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools nearby air.

Duh.


You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler and more
humid air through the house. It then exits the house through open windows

Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.


(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).

He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.


anyone read Rex Robert's book? "Your Engineered House"
advocates natural air flow. Low vents and high exit vents to promote the
natural air flow as heat rises.
We love ceiling fans too. And a light color for the roof. the garage
sports a wind turbine. Cool!


Swamp coolers only work in LOW humidity areas, and they rely on cheap
access to water.

Desert Southwest is one such place.

The way to make them work better is to invest in a 1000psi to 2000psi
water pump and pump the water thru very fine nozzles to create a fog of
ultra fine water drops. These drops FLASH over to vapor phase when
they touch almost anything. Restaurants in the Desert Southwest use
this technique to allow patrons to eat dinner outside in the
summertime. Water quality is a concern as the nozzles are so tiny.
Reverse Osmosis filtration helps greatly with this issue, and minimizes
the mineral residue (ultra distilled water would work even better, but
is more costly)

I just ran across this refrigeration AC unit last night:

http://partsonsale.com/sunchillsolo.htm

It looks promising ... don't know how much it costs though.

-tm

Tobius wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:
Crusader george wrote:
In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:


Andrew Barss wrote

Oscar wrote

Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from
-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.

A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.

Duh.


Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools nearby air.

Duh.


You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler and more
humid air through the house. It then exits the house through open windows

Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.


(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).

He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.


anyone read Rex Robert's book? "Your Engineered House"
advocates natural air flow. Low vents and high exit vents to promote the
natural air flow as heat rises.
We love ceiling fans too. And a light color for the roof. the garage
sports a wind turbine. Cool!


Swamp coolers only work in LOW humidity areas, and they rely on cheap
access to water.

Desert Southwest is one such place.

The way to make them work better is to invest in a 1000psi to 2000psi
water pump and pump the water thru very fine nozzles to create a fog of
ultra fine water drops. These drops FLASH over to vapor phase when
they touch almost anything. Restaurants in the Desert Southwest use
this technique to allow patrons to eat dinner outside in the
summertime. Water quality is a concern as the nozzles are so tiny.
Reverse Osmosis filtration helps greatly with this issue, and minimizes
the mineral residue (ultra distilled water would work even better, but
is more costly)

I just ran across this refrigeration AC unit last night:

http://partsonsale.com/sunchillsolo.htm

It looks promising ... don't know how much it costs though.

-tm

Answers

About $5K for the base unit. Plumbing to the house is very very
similar to a Swamp Cooler as there is only a 1200CFM fan that blows air
across the refrigerated coils. Low power, runs off 120V 7amps peak,
averages about same as 100W light bulb. RUNS WITHOUT POWER for up to 3
hour, longer of an optional solar panel is attached. SEER is
calcualted at 983, YES NINE HUNDRED EIGHTY THREE!!

Homeowner is resposible for distribution of the refiregerated air. In
low humidity climates (less than 40% RH is the quoted figure), one unit
will cool about 1000 SQ FT. In high humidity climates (80% RH is
quoted) one unit will cool about 500 sq ft

Right now, I am sitting at 91F and for us a lower than normal RH of 44%
Heat index is 94F

Crusader george wrote:
In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:

Andrew Barss wrote
Oscar wrote

Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1
m/s and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo
to 0.5 makes 35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54,
on a scale from -3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC
program in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have
just used a ceiling fan on that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5
and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.

A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.

Duh.

Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools
nearby air.

Duh.

You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler and
more humid air through the house. It then exits the house through
open windows

Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.

(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).

He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.

anyone read Rex Robert's book? "Your Engineered House"
advocates natural air flow. Low vents and high exit vents to promote
the natural air flow as heat rises.

Thats fine as long as the temp doesnt get too high.

Doesnt work anything like as well as a decent swamp
cooler when you have 10 days over 40C/105F tho.

We love ceiling fans too. And a light color for the roof.
the garage sports a wind turbine. Cool!

Not when you have 10 days over 40C/105F tho.
****ing hot in fact.

Robert Gammon wrote:
Tobius wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Crusader george wrote:

In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:



Andrew Barss wrote


Oscar wrote


Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from
-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.


A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.


If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.


Duh.



Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools nearby air.


Duh.



You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler and more
humid air through the house. It then exits the house through open windows


Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.



(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).


He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.


anyone read Rex Robert's book? "Your Engineered House"
advocates natural air flow. Low vents and high exit vents to promote the
natural air flow as heat rises.
We love ceiling fans too. And a light color for the roof. the garage
sports a wind turbine. Cool!



Swamp coolers only work in LOW humidity areas, and they rely on cheap
access to water.

Desert Southwest is one such place.

The way to make them work better is to invest in a 1000psi to 2000psi
water pump and pump the water thru very fine nozzles to create a fog of
ultra fine water drops. These drops FLASH over to vapor phase when
they touch almost anything. Restaurants in the Desert Southwest use
this technique to allow patrons to eat dinner outside in the
summertime. Water quality is a concern as the nozzles are so tiny.
Reverse Osmosis filtration helps greatly with this issue, and minimizes
the mineral residue (ultra distilled water would work even better, but
is more costly)

I just ran across this refrigeration AC unit last night:

http://partsonsale.com/sunchillsolo.htm

It looks promising ... don't know how much it costs though.

-tm


Answers

About $5K for the base unit. Plumbing to the house is very very
similar to a Swamp Cooler as there is only a 1200CFM fan that blows air
across the refrigerated coils. Low power, runs off 120V 7amps peak,
averages about same as 100W light bulb. RUNS WITHOUT POWER for up to 3
hour, longer of an optional solar panel is attached. SEER is
calcualted at 983, YES NINE HUNDRED EIGHTY THREE!!

Homeowner is resposible for distribution of the refiregerated air. In
low humidity climates (less than 40% RH is the quoted figure), one unit
will cool about 1000 SQ FT. In high humidity climates (80% RH is
quoted) one unit will cool about 500 sq ft

Right now, I am sitting at 91F and for us a lower than normal RH of 44%
Heat index is 94F


The Solcool unit sounds like the two-stage evap coolers that were
promised five years ago. For one reason or other none of the systems
ever made it to large scale manufacturing. I see one big drawback for
SoCool - the $5K price tag, which is about 10X the cost of a similar
evap unit. I don't see them getting much demand on the retail side with
prices like that.

One wholesaler told me the HVAC companies hate evap coolers because
there is so little profit in them compared to regular systems. Maybe
with the the higher price point, they'll start pushing these Solcool
systems.

Tim Killian wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:
Tobius wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Crusader george wrote:

In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:



Andrew Barss wrote


Oscar wrote


Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel =
0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to
0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a
scale from
-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the
ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling
fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.


A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.


If you're running it with a fan and no water, it's a ... fan.


Duh.



Swamp cooling relies on the fact that water evaporation cools
nearby air.


Duh.



You pull outside air into the wet medium, and pump the cooler
and more
humid air through the house. It then exits the house through
open windows


Duh. Pity that post was clearly suggesting ceiling
fans IN ADDITION TO A SWAMP COOLER.



(to the poster who recommended closing all the windows,
that's going to completely undermine the whole thing).


He's too stupid to be able to work that out for himself.


anyone read Rex Robert's book? "Your Engineered House"
advocates natural air flow. Low vents and high exit vents to
promote the
natural air flow as heat rises.
We love ceiling fans too. And a light color for the roof. the garage
sports a wind turbine. Cool!



Swamp coolers only work in LOW humidity areas, and they rely on cheap
access to water.

Desert Southwest is one such place.

The way to make them work better is to invest in a 1000psi to 2000psi
water pump and pump the water thru very fine nozzles to create a
fog of
ultra fine water drops. These drops FLASH over to vapor phase when
they touch almost anything. Restaurants in the Desert Southwest use
this technique to allow patrons to eat dinner outside in the
summertime. Water quality is a concern as the nozzles are so tiny.
Reverse Osmosis filtration helps greatly with this issue, and
minimizes
the mineral residue (ultra distilled water would work even better, but
is more costly)

I just ran across this refrigeration AC unit last night:

http://partsonsale.com/sunchillsolo.htm

It looks promising ... don't know how much it costs though.

-tm


Answers

About $5K for the base unit. Plumbing to the house is very very
similar to a Swamp Cooler as there is only a 1200CFM fan that blows air
across the refrigerated coils. Low power, runs off 120V 7amps peak,
averages about same as 100W light bulb. RUNS WITHOUT POWER for up to 3
hour, longer of an optional solar panel is attached. SEER is
calcualted at 983, YES NINE HUNDRED EIGHTY THREE!!

Homeowner is resposible for distribution of the refiregerated air. In
low humidity climates (less than 40% RH is the quoted figure), one unit
will cool about 1000 SQ FT. In high humidity climates (80% RH is
quoted) one unit will cool about 500 sq ft

Right now, I am sitting at 91F and for us a lower than normal RH of 44%
Heat index is 94F


The Solcool unit sounds like the two-stage evap coolers that were
promised five years ago. For one reason or other none of the systems
ever made it to large scale manufacturing. I see one big drawback for
SoCool - the $5K price tag, which is about 10X the cost of a similar
evap unit. I don't see them getting much demand on the retail side
with prices like that.

One wholesaler told me the HVAC companies hate evap coolers because
there is so little profit in them compared to regular systems. Maybe
with the the higher price point, they'll start pushing these Solcool
systems.

Agreed, in the Desert Southwest, where swamp coolers work well, they
both cool the house and add needed moisture. This thing expands the
envelope of applications outside the region where swamp coolers are sold.

The more valid comparison is to traditional AC units with which it is
price competitive. It adds refrigeration to a swamp cooler. This is a
very small refrigeration system, only about 1 pound of refrigerant is
used, versus 7-15 pounds in most residential refrigeration AC units.


1200CFM is a typical fan volume in refrigeration AC systems of the same
overall size class as this, they just do not recommend installing it in
a ducted house for some reason. Efficiency is very high, exiting air
temps are very low, air volume matches refrigeration, it looks better
and better.