I realize local ordinances vary but in general is a home owner allowed to do
whatever construction work is necessary as long as they meet county/city
codes? Including things like electrical and plumbing?

Generally, yes, with the exception of natural gas work, I believe. I
have no licenses, but have done electrical, framing and plumbing with
the blessings of inspectors and permits to show in the future when we
sell.

wrote:
Around here a homeowner can purchase one or two permits a year...after
that they must use a licensed bonded and insured...but more
importantly a tax paying business to do the work.

Permits are not about getting a job well done...they are about
collecting taxes.....

Sorry to hear you have those problems where you live. Where I live it
is not like that. I am sure a few people think it is, but from my personal
experience it is about getting the job done safely first and right second
with no other hidden agendas.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Aaron wrote:
I realize local ordinances vary but in general is a home owner allowed
to do whatever construction work is necessary as long as they meet
county/city codes? Including things like electrical and plumbing?

Most anything. It depends locally of course. Around here the limits
come up quickly when it comes to multi-family dwellings however.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

In this little town, you can do the work required on your own house
with
no permits. To work on someone else's house, you must be a licensed
plumber, electrician, etc.


--
Larrys25
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larrys25's Profile: http://www.HomeOutfit.com/member.php?userid=23
View this thread: http://www.HomeOutfit.com/showthread.php?t=67480

wrote in message oups.com...
Generally, yes, with the exception of natural gas work, I believe. I
have no licenses, but have done electrical, framing and plumbing with
the blessings of inspectors and permits to show in the future when we
sell.

I had no problem with natural gas work. Permits, inspection, lots of advice from
inspector, no problem.

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Generally, yes, with the exception of natural gas work, I believe. I
have no licenses, but have done electrical, framing and plumbing with
the blessings of inspectors and permits to show in the future when we
sell.

I had no problem with natural gas work. Permits, inspection, lots of
advice from
inspector, no problem.

In my town anyone can do gas plumbing, but firms must be licensed to do
water plumbing. Can't explain that, except maybe gas pressure is so much
lower that almost anything is good enough; but the cost of an error seems
rather higher...
I "believe" that individuals do not have to be licensed to do water
plumbing, but I have never specifically asked.

"Larrys25" wrote in message
...

In this little town, you can do the work required on your own house
with
no permits. To work on someone else's house, you must be a licensed
plumber, electrician, etc.

Do they simply not enforce the law, or is there really no requirement for a
permit? I thought permits were always required.
The rural county I have a cottage in lets stores sell illegal fireworks, but
still requires permits.

"Larrys25" wrote in message
...

In this little town, you can do the work required on your own house
with
no permits. To work on someone else's house, you must be a licensed
plumber, electrician, etc.

In my town, only the Owner or a licensed contractor (acting on behalf of the
owner) can get a permit. So if your some guy who wants to do work, the
owner has to pull the permit and hire you as a second step (and you don't
need a license for that, its buyer beware). Without a contractors license
to file a complaint against or property to lean, there is simply no recourse
for a city to sanction a third party.

Case in point. My boss sold a tree to a contractor (tall palm). Contractor
lied and did not (actually could not) get a permit to remove (told my boss
he worked out a deal with city). Showed up while he was at work and dug up
the tree. Neighbor called the city and they blockaded the truck until he
came home. Ultimately, city and cop released the truck even though owner
said he did not authorize. Bottom line, since he accepted payment, it was
not a theft and he was responsible as the property owner for not obtaining
the permit. The rest is s civil case between the contractor and the owner,
city is done when it collects its fine (up to value of tree plus 3X permit
cost, price not decided yet, could be $10k). I hear the tree moved to San
Diego for $14k.

Moral of that story, the owner is ultimately responsible for all permits,
regardless of who obtains it.

"Aaron" wrote in message
...
I realize local ordinances vary but in general is a home owner allowed to
do whatever construction work is necessary as long as they meet county/city
codes? Including things like electrical and plumbing?


You can do any kind of work you want to on your home. You just need to do
it in accordance with local codes for such things as electrical, plumbing,
gas, etc. Someone who knows has to look at it and make sure it isn't going
to kill someone or be a biohazard. As for carpet, cabinets, drapes, etc,
you can put in the most hideous colors and crappy jobs known to man, and you
won't be penalized for it like you would for an electrical or plumbing
mistake.

Something you can do is pick brains. If you have a friend, relative,
in-law, etc. who will tell you what code is and help you to do it to that
standard, you can save big bucks and still have it done right.

Codes vary. I recently woke up to a leaking hot water heater. $350 and
four hours later, I was lighting the pilot light on a new one. I have heard
here that some communities require a licensed contractor to change a hot
water heater. That is probably why I don't live in one of those
communities. People stated that they paid $1,000 for a hot water heater
replacement, up to code, earthquake straps and all. Even if you live in an
area where there are earthquakes only every few hundred years. Point is, on
some jobs, you can do it yourself if you know how, codes allow it, and no
one cares. If you call a repair guy you better provide your own KY jelly.

Knowing the difference in all these things can save you some big bucks, and
you will end up with the same quality work and materials. Or better.

Steve

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Bob" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Generally, yes, with the exception of natural gas work, I believe. I
have no licenses, but have done electrical, framing and plumbing with
the blessings of inspectors and permits to show in the future when we
sell.

I had no problem with natural gas work. Permits, inspection, lots of
advice from
inspector, no problem.

In my town anyone can do gas plumbing, but firms must be licensed to do
water plumbing. Can't explain that, except maybe gas pressure is so much
lower that almost anything is good enough; but the cost of an error seems
rather higher...
I "believe" that individuals do not have to be licensed to do water
plumbing, but I have never specifically asked.


The variations of what you (as an owner/builder) can and can't do are often
politically motivated. Lobbying groups (especially local unions and some
funded by private contractors) work very hard to keep jobs in the hands of
their membership even when it infringes (IMO) on the rites of the property
owners to do their own work. These reasons are often cloaked in otherwise
rational reasonings like "we feel there is a need to protect the city water
supply from non compliant hookups" or "an error in this type of work can
effect poeple not on your property" (you'll find that at the root of many
restrictions)

In reality, if you screw up and cause harm, you'll be sued or arrested for
negligance and held accountable. This fear keeps most reasonable people
from trying things well beyond their capability. I suppose some forms of
negligence go unidentified until long after the jackass has left the scene.

WRT how much work or limitations on the extent of work, this is often based
on the city's desire to control growth whether that be expansion or
gentrification. A city's income is largely based on these types of zoning
descisions as they specifically determine the permit costs and the impact on
the tax assessmsnt for each property permitted.

As you can imagine, anything so political would be highly regionalized.

I see everyone saying around here. What state are you guys in? I would image
the guys going thru the most hassels live in the NorthEast while people with
an easier time are in the South or Western states.

"Aaron" wrote in message
...
I realize local ordinances vary but in general is a home owner allowed to
do whatever construction work is necessary as long as they meet county/city
codes? Including things like electrical and plumbing?

Aaron wrote:
I see everyone saying around here. What state are you guys in? I would
image the guys going thru the most hassels live in the NorthEast
while people with an easier time are in the South or Western states.


I happen to be in Ohio. Just a few miles from me you can do almost
anything you like without a permit and no one cares. Where I am you better
have that permit. The difference is I am in a city and not far away it it
farm land and I guess they don't bother even trying to get those farmers to
pull permits.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Aaron wrote:
I see everyone saying around here. What state are you guys in? I would image
the guys going thru the most hassels live in the NorthEast while people with
an easier time are in the South or Western states.

"Aaron" wrote in message
...
I realize local ordinances vary but in general is a home owner allowed to
do whatever construction work is necessary as long as they meet county/city
codes? Including things like electrical and plumbing?




Absolutely, even in the Northeast region. However, be prepared to be
scrutinized more heavily by the inspectors. You also accept all
responsibility if things go wrong. They assume you don't know what you
are doing even if you do. They are there to protect you, your family
and your home. Once you prove to them you know what you are doing, they
typically ease up. The inspectors are there to help you with your
project. If you pressed for time, I suggest that you hire a
professional.
Here are some tips I have used and would like to pass on:
1. Do things right, be prepared and ask if you unsure.
2. Be patient, respectful, courteous and non-confrontational with the
entire building department, they are people too. They can be a wealth
of information.
3. Submit detailed plans, have them approved and try not to deviate much
from them. If you do deviate, revise and resubmit the plans.
4. Ask questions about codes that you are not familiar with, especially
plumbing and electrical.
5. Ask questions about their process, which inspection do you want and
when.
6. Don't say things like "My taxes pay your salary" or "that is not how
I interpreted the code to be". It is not your job to interpret the code
book, it is theirs.
7. Thank them for their time.

I hope this helps

Ed B

yes, most local ordinances allow general home repair to be done without special approval. however, often times local ordinances will require approval on a task which might seem trivial. For example some require permits to build a loft in a bedroom. Others have restrictions on materials and colors of roofing, siding and stone that you can use on your exterior.

One of the funniest ordinances I have heard of is that based upon the International Code Counsil you are allowed to have older windows in your house , but if you make any type of renovation or remodel you aren't allowed to use those same windows again. Even if you are just transeferring them to a different part of the house.

all-in-all, if you aren't sure you're allowed to be doing it, you might as well check the books

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 21:49:41 GMT, Toller wrote:

"Larrys25" wrote in message
...

In this little town, you can do the work required on your own house
with
no permits. To work on someone else's house, you must be a licensed
plumber, electrician, etc.

Do they simply not enforce the law, or is there really no requirement for a
permit? I thought permits were always required.
The rural county I have a cottage in lets stores sell illegal fireworks, but
still requires permits.

I built my own house and the only inspection was on how the breaker box was
connected to the meter. Zero inspections after that.

"Permits are not about getting a job well done...they are about
collecting taxes.....and the reason a city or county government
restricts homeowners from doing a lot of work is that it ****es off the

licensed contractors who pay taxes on their business license each
year....Ive seen inspectors breeze thru jobs so fast they could miss
major mistakes in workmanship but not all are like that."

Ed B wrote:
...

Absolutely, even in the Northeast region. However, be prepared to be
scrutinized more heavily by the inspectors. You also accept all
responsibility if things go wrong. They assume you don't know what
you are doing even if you do. They are there to protect you, your
family and your home. Once you prove to them you know what you are
doing, they typically ease up. The inspectors are there to help you
with your project. If you pressed for time, I suggest that you hire a
professional....

Ed B

Have you noticed that those who tend to complain about inspectors often
are the same ones who don't believe they should be required to comply with
electrical codes or plumbing codes because they don't understand why the
code is written the way it is.

Please note that I am not suggesting that all code enforcement and local
codes are reasonable. Some of the writers may well be reporting their local
situation. I have experienced a few of those situations myself.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

On 2/27/06 8:15 PM, in article ,
"Aaron" wrote:

I see everyone saying around here. What state are you guys in? I would image
the guys going thru the most hassels live in the NorthEast while people with
an easier time are in the South or Western states.


I'm in Central New York, rural area south of Syracuse. I bought a house that
was "livable" and had good siding, but otherwise was a POS. I tore the whole
thing apart, new wiring, plumbing, doors, windows, everything. The whole
time I was working I kept expecting someone to come over asking to see my
permit (that I didn't have). The renovations are done now, and still
nothing.

I think permits are "required" because the local government wants to:
1) know what you're doing so if your property value goes up, they can
increase you assessment
2) make sure your neighbors are going to complain when it's done
3) make sure you don't make some horrible mistake that will cause death or
injury to yourself or others..

You should have seen the things the previous owner did in *his* renovation
of this house (wiring on the outside of the wall, then into the wall, to
power an outlet), and so on and so on..

Permits are a good idea in general, but if you're confident in your own
work, and you don't think anyone is going to bother you about *not* getting
one, I wouldn't worry about it..

"Michael Keefe" wrote in message
...
On 2/27/06 8:15 PM, in article
,
"Aaron" wrote:

I see everyone saying around here. What state are you guys in? I would
image
the guys going thru the most hassels live in the NorthEast while people
with
an easier time are in the South or Western states.


I'm in Central New York, rural area south of Syracuse. I bought a house
that
was "livable" and had good siding, but otherwise was a POS. I tore the
whole
thing apart, new wiring, plumbing, doors, windows, everything. The whole
time I was working I kept expecting someone to come over asking to see my
permit (that I didn't have). The renovations are done now, and still
nothing.

I think permits are "required" because the local government wants to:
1) know what you're doing so if your property value goes up, they can
increase you assessment
2) make sure your neighbors are going to complain when it's done
3) make sure you don't make some horrible mistake that will cause death or
injury to yourself or others..

You should have seen the things the previous owner did in *his* renovation
of this house (wiring on the outside of the wall, then into the wall, to
power an outlet), and so on and so on..

Permits are a good idea in general, but if you're confident in your own
work, and you don't think anyone is going to bother you about *not*
getting
one, I wouldn't worry about it..


Yea, but consider the number of Bubbas out there who are confident of
their own work, and well... lets say over confident.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
...

(snip)

Yea, but consider the number of Bubbas out there who are confident of
their own work, and well... lets say over confident.


Chuckle. My house resembles that remark. The decor is bad enough, but at
least that isn't dangerous. The wiring, on the other hand- half the outlets
reverse-polarity, and the open-lidded junction box in the attic where the
wire nuts went 'sproing' when I touched it, the buried splice in the run to
the medicine cabinet, the unclamped cable feeding the fart fan that was
blowing directly into the insulation, the butchered cabinet that has a large
air leak to attic above the stove where they installed the built-in micro -
need I go on? I won't say that the work I am slowly doing is craftsman
quality, especially the electrical cable fishing, but it is a damn sight
better than what I ripped out, and it is at least safe, even if it isn't
pretty. I'll be calling in a pro for the HVAC replacement- I don't have a
warm fuzzy about doing that myself.

aem sends....

I think permits are "required" because the local government wants to:
1) know what you're doing so if your property value goes up, they can
increase you assessment
2) make sure your neighbors are going to complain when it's done
3) make sure you don't make some horrible mistake that will cause death or
injury to yourself or others..


There are reasons, rationalizations, and uses for permitting,
and none of the three particularly resembles the other.

And then there are reasons why the permitting is done the
way it's done, which usually boils down to money and effort.

In this case, iiuc -- let me know if I got it wrong -- the owner
wanted to sell the tree, but needed a permit to do so.

Owner was approached by contractor and convinced to sell (greed). Most
cities require a permit to remove any tree over so many inches in diameter
for any reason. In this case the original application was rejected because
it would offset the city's desire to have many trees (Saratoga CA - kinda
ritzy in the hills). Contractor said he worked out a deal to put different
trees in another location in the city but he lied. Owners last words 'don't
do anything until I see the proper paperwork" Obviously were ignored.

Apparently this "contractor' has done this all over the state and is known
by his actions. I don't know if the owner checked his licensce but at one
point he called the company he thought he worked for and they disavowed any
relation to him bla bla.


The neibhbor liked the tree, and wanted to stop the sale.


Neighborhood code vigilante. Known to call whenever any contractor van
pulls onto the road. (stinkin control freak). This is not the first time
in that neighborhood. owner not sure who it is.


In practice, could the owner have gotten a permit if he had requested
one? Could the neighbor have stopped it? How much would the permit
have cost? (Y + 3X = approx. 10K, but how much is Y and how much is
X?)


Cost of the permit is not too much and would have been absorbed by the
contractor but it needs approval by city engineer (or whomever hugs the
trees in that city)

He has a citation for an appearance before whatever city board reviews this
stuff in a few weeks. I'm interested to see how it turns out, they may have
mercy in the end. Unfortunately he already blew the $1k talking to a layer
about the situation.

Personally I send all solicitors packing, no matter what they sell. I only
buy from deals I initiate.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:32:45 -0500, "Aaron" wrote:

I realize local ordinances vary but in general is a home owner allowed to do
whatever construction work is necessary as long as they meet county/city
codes? Including things like electrical and plumbing?


In the USA you can not do anything yourself. In other countries where
people have freedom, you can do anything.