Hello all,

This is the first time I have posted to this group and please excuse
any information in my post that may be inaccurate or lacking detail as
I am VERY inexperienced in electrical wiring.

Now to my problem...

Yesterday I had Dish Network come to my house to install satellite in
my house. Every thing was going smoothly through the rewiring of the
Coax cabling (this was of an older variety and needed to be replaced to
support the satellite signal.) After all the wiring and the dish was
mounted, the technician proceeded to install the two receivers. The
first one went fine, with no problems and while it was downloading
software and guide data, he went to another room in the house to
install the second receiver. He plugged in the second receiver into a
near by surge protector.

He then needed to adjust the wiring coming into the receiver and when
he touched to the receiver box and the wiring on the back got a jolt of
electricity. He said that it felt "like the 110V variety" and that the
current running through the coax should only be about 16V (I think that
is what he said). So he unplugged the unit from the surge protector
and made some changes to the cabling and then decided to try pluggin
the power cable directly into the wall outlet and it tripped the
circuit breaker in the main breaker box.

He said that it was a was possibly a defective unit and went to the
truck to get a replacement. He brought this new unit in and hooked up
all the cabling prior to hooking up the power. He then tried to
plugged the power into the wall outlet and before the plug was even
inserted in the wall jack it sparked and left a black area around the
screw that holds the face plate on.

We took the receiver box to another room and plugged it in and
everything was ok. So we decided to run a heavy-duty extension cord
from that outlet to the room where the receiver needed to be hooked up
in. This is currently how things are but I would like to rolve the
issues for that outlet near the location of the receiver. I do not
want a bright orange extension cord running from one room to another.

Here is some general information about the electrical wiring in my
house (the little that I know)...

--The house was built in the late '60s or early '70s.
--I believe the home inspection stated that some rooms have reverse
polarity and/or no ground.
--A new service coming into the house and new circuit breaker box was
installed prior to me purchasing the house. I was under the
understanding that the issue above was corrected when this was done
(because this new service/circuit box was another issue flagged on the
inspection).
--The whole house has finished walls and electrical wiring is not
easily accessible.

My questions...

-- Could reverse polarity be the culprit? Or lack of proper grounding?
-- How can I test for this in this outlet (and others that may be a
problem)?
-- If this is a polarity issue, I believe that I can fix this myself.
Is there any way to test to make sure that this issue is resolved
before I plug the receiver into that outlet so that I do not fry this
one too?
-- If a professional gets involved, can any one give me a ball park
idea of how much charges can be? (for example how much to correct
grounding, etc)

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello all,

This is the first time I have posted to this group and please excuse
any information in my post that may be inaccurate or lacking detail as
I am VERY inexperienced in electrical wiring.

Now to my problem...

Yesterday I had Dish Network come to my house to install satellite in
my house. Every thing was going smoothly through the rewiring of the
Coax cabling (this was of an older variety and needed to be replaced to
support the satellite signal.) After all the wiring and the dish was
mounted, the technician proceeded to install the two receivers. The
first one went fine, with no problems and while it was downloading
software and guide data, he went to another room in the house to
install the second receiver. He plugged in the second receiver into a
near by surge protector.

He then needed to adjust the wiring coming into the receiver and when
he touched to the receiver box and the wiring on the back got a jolt of
electricity. He said that it felt "like the 110V variety" and that the
current running through the coax should only be about 16V (I think that
is what he said). So he unplugged the unit from the surge protector
and made some changes to the cabling and then decided to try pluggin
the power cable directly into the wall outlet and it tripped the
circuit breaker in the main breaker box.

He said that it was a was possibly a defective unit and went to the
truck to get a replacement. He brought this new unit in and hooked up
all the cabling prior to hooking up the power. He then tried to
plugged the power into the wall outlet and before the plug was even
inserted in the wall jack it sparked and left a black area around the
screw that holds the face plate on.

We took the receiver box to another room and plugged it in and
everything was ok. So we decided to run a heavy-duty extension cord
from that outlet to the room where the receiver needed to be hooked up
in. This is currently how things are but I would like to rolve the
issues for that outlet near the location of the receiver. I do not
want a bright orange extension cord running from one room to another.

Here is some general information about the electrical wiring in my
house (the little that I know)...

--The house was built in the late '60s or early '70s.
--I believe the home inspection stated that some rooms have reverse
polarity and/or no ground.
--A new service coming into the house and new circuit breaker box was
installed prior to me purchasing the house. I was under the
understanding that the issue above was corrected when this was done
(because this new service/circuit box was another issue flagged on the
inspection).
--The whole house has finished walls and electrical wiring is not
easily accessible.

My questions...

-- Could reverse polarity be the culprit? Or lack of proper grounding?
-- How can I test for this in this outlet (and others that may be a
problem)?
-- If this is a polarity issue, I believe that I can fix this myself.
Is there any way to test to make sure that this issue is resolved
before I plug the receiver into that outlet so that I do not fry this
one too?
-- If a professional gets involved, can any one give me a ball park
idea of how much charges can be? (for example how much to correct
grounding, etc)

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob


From what you describe it sounds as though a dead short is created when
something is plugged into that receptacle. Using a voltmeter I would check
each side of the receptacle to ground and to each other.

The fact that you had reverse polarity and lack of a ground on some
receptacles prior to the service upgrade leads me to think that maybe those
problems have not been resolved. The problem may not be in just one
receptacle. I'm wondering if the problem is in the electrical panel.

I don't think that is a good situation for you to get your feet wet learning
about wiring. I suggest calling in an electrician. I'm not sure that an
exact price can be quoted until the problem(s) are diagnosed. I suppose
rates will be from $50. - $150. per hour depending on what part of the
country you live.

You can buy a simple plug in outlet tester from Home Depot. It's a three
prong device which will tell you if the outlet is wired correctly or how
it's wired wrong. If the polarity is reversed in the outlet and this man's
equipment has the neutral and ground wiring connected together inside his
device, it would cause a dead short and trip the breaker when it was plugged
in



"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello all,

This is the first time I have posted to this group and please excuse
any information in my post that may be inaccurate or lacking detail as
I am VERY inexperienced in electrical wiring.

Now to my problem...

Yesterday I had Dish Network come to my house to install satellite in
my house. Every thing was going smoothly through the rewiring of the
Coax cabling (this was of an older variety and needed to be replaced to
support the satellite signal.) After all the wiring and the dish was
mounted, the technician proceeded to install the two receivers. The
first one went fine, with no problems and while it was downloading
software and guide data, he went to another room in the house to
install the second receiver. He plugged in the second receiver into a
near by surge protector.

He then needed to adjust the wiring coming into the receiver and when
he touched to the receiver box and the wiring on the back got a jolt of
electricity. He said that it felt "like the 110V variety" and that the
current running through the coax should only be about 16V (I think that
is what he said). So he unplugged the unit from the surge protector
and made some changes to the cabling and then decided to try pluggin
the power cable directly into the wall outlet and it tripped the
circuit breaker in the main breaker box.

He said that it was a was possibly a defective unit and went to the
truck to get a replacement. He brought this new unit in and hooked up
all the cabling prior to hooking up the power. He then tried to
plugged the power into the wall outlet and before the plug was even
inserted in the wall jack it sparked and left a black area around the
screw that holds the face plate on.

We took the receiver box to another room and plugged it in and
everything was ok. So we decided to run a heavy-duty extension cord
from that outlet to the room where the receiver needed to be hooked up
in. This is currently how things are but I would like to rolve the
issues for that outlet near the location of the receiver. I do not
want a bright orange extension cord running from one room to another.

Here is some general information about the electrical wiring in my
house (the little that I know)...

--The house was built in the late '60s or early '70s.
--I believe the home inspection stated that some rooms have reverse
polarity and/or no ground.
--A new service coming into the house and new circuit breaker box was
installed prior to me purchasing the house. I was under the
understanding that the issue above was corrected when this was done
(because this new service/circuit box was another issue flagged on the
inspection).
--The whole house has finished walls and electrical wiring is not
easily accessible.

My questions...

-- Could reverse polarity be the culprit? Or lack of proper grounding?
-- How can I test for this in this outlet (and others that may be a
problem)?
-- If this is a polarity issue, I believe that I can fix this myself.
Is there any way to test to make sure that this issue is resolved
before I plug the receiver into that outlet so that I do not fry this
one too?
-- If a professional gets involved, can any one give me a ball park
idea of how much charges can be? (for example how much to correct
grounding, etc)

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob

I agree that I really do not want to jump in and get my feet wet on
something like this. My problem is I'm not sure if my family's budget
can take a big bill by calling in a electrician. I realize that this
is something that I cannot cut corners on and more than anything safety
for my family is the most important thing.

With that said I have done some minor things like replacing some
switches, wall outlets, light fixtures, and ceiling fans. However, I
have never done anything with the wiring (aside from using existing
wiring) or the breaker panel.

Another person replied prior and suggested using an inexpensive tester
to test the outlet. Are these testers reliable? If I use one and
determine that the outlet is truly wired in reverse polarity, if I
were to fix (probably replace) that outlet and ensure that it is wired
correctly can I consider this issue resolved or could there potentially
be other problems that this kind of tester would not show?

Also, John mentions "Using a voltmeter I would check each side of the
receptacle to ground and to each other." I have had some experience
with a voltmeter, but when I check each side to the ground versu
checking to each other, what results should I expect?

Again, I by all means do not want to cut corners and only "patch" this
problem and still have other existing problems, but if this could take
care of this issue until I can financially work out having a big
expense associated with having a professional come in would be
preferred.

Thank you to everyone who has responded, it is greatly appreciated.

Bob wrote:
Hello all,

This is the first time I have posted to this group and please excuse
any information in my post that may be inaccurate or lacking detail as
I am VERY inexperienced in electrical wiring.

Now to my problem...

Yesterday I had Dish Network come to my house to install satellite in
my house. Every thing was going smoothly through the rewiring of the
Coax cabling (this was of an older variety and needed to be replaced to
support the satellite signal.) After all the wiring and the dish was
mounted, the technician proceeded to install the two receivers. The
first one went fine, with no problems and while it was downloading
software and guide data, he went to another room in the house to
install the second receiver. He plugged in the second receiver into a
near by surge protector.

He then needed to adjust the wiring coming into the receiver and when
he touched to the receiver box and the wiring on the back got a jolt of
electricity. He said that it felt "like the 110V variety" and that the
current running through the coax should only be about 16V (I think that
is what he said). So he unplugged the unit from the surge protector
and made some changes to the cabling and then decided to try pluggin
the power cable directly into the wall outlet and it tripped the
circuit breaker in the main breaker box.

He said that it was a was possibly a defective unit and went to the
truck to get a replacement. He brought this new unit in and hooked up
all the cabling prior to hooking up the power. He then tried to
plugged the power into the wall outlet and before the plug was even
inserted in the wall jack it sparked and left a black area around the
screw that holds the face plate on.

We took the receiver box to another room and plugged it in and
everything was ok. So we decided to run a heavy-duty extension cord
from that outlet to the room where the receiver needed to be hooked up
in. This is currently how things are but I would like to rolve the
issues for that outlet near the location of the receiver. I do not
want a bright orange extension cord running from one room to another.

Here is some general information about the electrical wiring in my
house (the little that I know)...

--The house was built in the late '60s or early '70s.
--I believe the home inspection stated that some rooms have reverse
polarity and/or no ground.
--A new service coming into the house and new circuit breaker box was
installed prior to me purchasing the house. I was under the
understanding that the issue above was corrected when this was done
(because this new service/circuit box was another issue flagged on the
inspection).
--The whole house has finished walls and electrical wiring is not
easily accessible.

My questions...

-- Could reverse polarity be the culprit? Or lack of proper grounding?
-- How can I test for this in this outlet (and others that may be a
problem)?
-- If this is a polarity issue, I believe that I can fix this myself.
Is there any way to test to make sure that this issue is resolved
before I plug the receiver into that outlet so that I do not fry this
one too?
-- If a professional gets involved, can any one give me a ball park
idea of how much charges can be? (for example how much to correct
grounding, etc)

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob


This is probably a reverse polarity outlet. I am assuming your
equipment does not have a ground prong? That's why the poor install guy
got blasted. I guess some companies don't care about these things. It
should be law that any devices that connect to other conductive devices
MUST have 3 prong plugs...Anyway, buy a polarity tester from home depot
or lowes, etc. and rewire that outlet. Its polarity is reversed. Even
if its not, since you know you have some reverse polarity outlets, you
need to find and fix them all. Surprised any inspector would pass such
a thing. If your receiver has 3 prong plug, then you have both reverse
polarity and an open ground. If not then this is one dumbass receiver
design.



--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

With what you explained above with the "bootleg ground" I assume based
on the image you linked to that I should be able to tell that this is
the situation if I turn the breaker off and then remove the face plate
to the outlet and visually inspecting it for some sort of connection of
the white wires being connected to the ground screw of the outlet,
correct? If this is the case, what has to be done to correct the
situation? If I simply remove the connection of the white wire to the
ground screw with it solve my issues? What are the consequences of not
having a ground? Again, I'm not looking for a quick fix issue that is
still a huge safety concern, but I'm trying to do as much as I can
myself before having to invest in seeking the help of a professional.
I am also just to learn and get a better understanding of what I am
dealing with.

Thank you!

Nearly all new dishnetwork receivers use 3 prong plugs, primarily
because a lot of installers dont ground the coax properly.

You can ask question at: http://www.satelliteguys.us/index.php

Yes, the receivers have 3 prong plugs.

I am planning on buying one of the outlet testers this evening and
testing the outlets on this trouble circuit. I will also probably go
ahead and shut off the circuit and pull the face plate off of the
outlet and inspect the wiring to see if there is anything unusal such
as what was described as a "bootleg ground". If possible I may take a
picture and post somewhere and link to it for everyone to take a look
at and give some more expert oppinions of my situation. I appreciate
everyone's help.

Thanks!

wrote:
Nearly all new dishnetwork receivers use 3 prong plugs, primarily
because a lot of installers dont ground the coax properly.

You can ask question at: http://www.satelliteguys.us/index.php


If the coax is not grounded properly you have a serious problem. Its a
bad idea to ground something thats outside of your house (especially on
your roof), by way of something inside your house.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just an observation.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

RBM wrote:

You can buy a simple plug in outlet tester from Home Depot. It's a three
prong device which will tell you if the outlet is wired correctly or how
it's wired wrong. If the polarity is reversed in the outlet and this man's
equipment has the neutral and ground wiring connected together inside his
device, it would cause a dead short and trip the breaker when it was plugged
in


I'll second the miswired outlet answer.

The OP didn't mention whether the satellite equipment used a two or
three wire plug on its power cord. I'd bet it was a three wire plug and
some previous bozo managed to get the hot connected to the ground
terminal on that weird receptical.

Nor did the OP say whether some other appliance plugged into that weird
outlet worked ok or not. A two wire plug device like a table lamp
wouldn't be bothered by a hot ground terminal.

What you said is correct, but having the neutral lead tied to ground
inside equipment like that is a no-no. On equipment with two blade plugs
designers will often have a very high resistance (like 100K ohms) or so
connected between neutral and the equipment's chassis to discharge
static buildup, this was commonly done with TVs using CRTs which can
have 20,000 volt dc anode supplies in them.

I've even seen two bladed wall wart power supplies where you can measure
about 100K ohms between the plug blades and the low voltage side.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006 08:12:23 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:


--I believe the home inspection stated that some rooms have reverse
polarity and/or no ground.


I still can't get over this. The installer could have had a pacemaker
or something.


I bet you have no grounds in the wiring method and someone has made a
bootleg ground to trick the 3 wire tester. (tying the white to the
ground screw)
That can end up putting 120v on the ground. With that the bonding of
the cable at the Dmark will be your short.
It can also kill you.
http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magaz...berts_fig2.gif

the picture describes a bit more than your words above. it also
includes a wire criss-cross somewhere upstream.

I think you are giving them the benefit of the doubt by not supposing
that they tied the black wire to the ground screw...

To be fair we are describing the same condition. I think its more
likely though that the Panel is wired properly and the outlet is screwed
up completely

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

I agree it should be grounded immediately before the coax enters your
home and the grounding block should be unified with your main house
ground. for a long list of reasons not all are, and this is helped by
grounded plugs on all new receivers

Hallerb has described why electricity should not be coming from coax
- if properly installed. That coax earth ground is required by code.
Yet many installers either don't know or don't bother to make that
earthing connection (that should also connect to breaker box ground).
A house built in the 60s or 70s may not have that earthing ground - may
only use a cold water pipe. Therefore cable and AC electric may not be
sufficiently bonded together. Visual inspection is required - this
cannot be measured.

AC electric voltage might be coming from safety ground of AC
recpetacle. For example, if receptacle safety grounds are not properly
connected to breaker box, then even another shorted and dangerous
appliance could put AC electric on that satellite receiver dish. There
could be many possible sources of dangerous voltages coming from that
AC outlet - if safet ground was compromised. We strongly suspect one
thing. Unacceptable AC voltage is probably on the AC safety ground.
A voltage that may (only may because we only have a subjective shock -
no numbers) trip a circuit breaker if safety ground is then properly
connected to breaker box.

That three prong tester would confirm a missing safety ground.
Tester can detect defective safety ground, but tester cannot confirm a
safety ground is properly installed. Appreicate the limits of that
tester.

wrote:
I agree it should be grounded immediately before the coax enters your
home and the grounding block should be unified with your main house
ground. for a long list of reasons not all are, and this is helped by
grounded plugs on all new receivers

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
I agree that I really do not want to jump in and get my feet wet on
something like this. My problem is I'm not sure if my family's budget
can take a big bill by calling in a electrician. I realize that this
is something that I cannot cut corners on and more than anything safety
for my family is the most important thing.

With that said I have done some minor things like replacing some
switches, wall outlets, light fixtures, and ceiling fans. However, I
have never done anything with the wiring (aside from using existing
wiring) or the breaker panel.

Another person replied prior and suggested using an inexpensive tester
to test the outlet. Are these testers reliable? If I use one and
determine that the outlet is truly wired in reverse polarity, if I
were to fix (probably replace) that outlet and ensure that it is wired
correctly can I consider this issue resolved or could there potentially
be other problems that this kind of tester would not show?

Without additional information at this point I would be concerned that the
little polarity tester may burn up in your hand. The fact that there were
problems in several places leaves everything in question right now.


Also, John mentions "Using a voltmeter I would check each side of the
receptacle to ground and to each other." I have had some experience
with a voltmeter, but when I check each side to the ground versu
checking to each other, what results should I expect?

On a normal 120 volt receptacle you should have 120 volts between the two
vertical slots. The taller slot should be the neutral. Between the hot
side and the ground hole you should have 120 volts. Between the neutral
slot and the ground hole you might have 0-3 volts.

I am thinking that there is a possibility that you have 220 volts on your
receptacle. The fact that the circuit breaker tripped immediately after
plugging something in sends up a red flag. Of course anything is possible.

Many years ago I was doing a job in a television editing facility. They
used 3 wire bx for all of the isolated ground circuits with the red wire as
the grounding conductor. No one before me ever identified the red wire with
green tape at each end. Inside the electrical panel was a bunch of red wires
on the ground block. I was opening up a receptacle which I had tested to be
off and I got bit. The red wire on the isolated ground terminal was hot.
Since it was isolated it never created a short. I don't know what happened
when someone had plugged something into that receptacle.

It is possible that your grounding conductor for this circuit is diconnected
somewhere and possibly the grounding part of the circuit is energized. One
more story. A customer calls me and tells me that he gets a shock from his
medicine cabinet every time he steps out of the shower. The cabinet was the
type with the built in lights. I checked voltage from the medicine cabinet
to the water faucet and there was 120 volts. I pulled the medicine cabinet
out of the wall and was checking for shorts and continuity everywhere, but
could not find anything. I put the cabinet back together and checked
voltage again and there was nothing. I thought that I unknowingly fixed the
problem. I checked it one more time before getting ready to leave and I had
120 volts again. I traced the wiring back to the light switch in the other
bathroom. The ground wire in the switch box from the non-metallic feed was
not connected. The circuit left the box as a bx three wire. The bx did not
have an anti short bushing in it and was cutting into the switch leg of the
three wire. Every time someone turned on the switch in the bathroom
everything that was grounded after it was energized.

The reason that I mention bx is because that was a popular residential
wiring method in the 60's and 70's.


Again, I by all means do not want to cut corners and only "patch" this
problem and still have other existing problems, but if this could take
care of this issue until I can financially work out having a big
expense associated with having a professional come in would be
preferred.

Thank you to everyone who has responded, it is greatly appreciated.

Suprisingly home inspectors around here just use the 3 prong tester. it
probably catches the worst of the problems

i suspect he has a some reveresed wires, that should show up with the
tester

wrote:
I agree it should be grounded immediately before the coax enters your
home and the grounding block should be unified with your main house
ground. for a long list of reasons not all are, and this is helped by
grounded plugs on all new receivers


Yea, this just reminded me of the fact that I lost a router and cable
modem due to lightning strike last year. When I checked outside I
discovered that the cable installer did not ground the cable line. I
told them I wanted my stuff replaced. They came out and repaired the
ground within a few days once I told them they were violating rules and
endangering my family.

They sent me to a "lawyer" to discuss replacement. I just hung up. If
I really wanted replacement I would have sent them to my lawyer...

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:38:29 -0500, dnoyeB
wrote:

wrote:
Nearly all new dishnetwork receivers use 3 prong plugs, primarily
because a lot of installers dont ground the coax properly.

You can ask question at: http://www.satelliteguys.us/index.php


If the coax is not grounded properly you have a serious problem. Its a
bad idea to ground something thats outside of your house (especially on
your roof), by way of something inside your house.


Does this apply to grounding a satellite dish to an outside water
faucet?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just an observation.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On 20 Feb 2006 08:12:23 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:

He said that it was a was possibly a defective unit and went to the
truck to get a replacement. He brought this new unit in and hooked up
all the cabling prior to hooking up the power. He then tried to
plugged the power into the wall outlet and before the plug was even
inserted in the wall jack it sparked and left a black area around the
screw that holds the face plate on.

The outlet is bad. I have ruled.

Had you ever used this outlet before? If it worked fine before, I
can't help thinking there is is something about the grounded tv cable
that is causing it to cause problems with the cable boxes that don't
occur otherwise.

I agree that as a whole this job might be too much for you, but I
think you could do some things. You could measure the voltage like
the first paragraph of John Grabowski's answer. If you don't find
anything wrong, you could plug in a lamp, something with a two-prong
plug, and see if that works. Actually a lamp doesn't care if there
is reverse polarity.

I might not use it for this outlet that is known to be very bad, but
for other outlets, there is a cheap little device about the size of a
one inch cube with three prongs and three lights on the other side
that will make checking outlets go quickly, The one I have is yellow,
I think. I would follow up any unusual reading with more voltage
tests, etc.

IIRC, the wider prong slot is supposed to be hot, and the narrower
prong slot is supposed to be neutral, that is, zero.

issues for that outlet near the location of the receiver. I do not
want a bright orange extension cord running from one room to another.

There are many fashion colors that you could paint the cord.

Here is some general information about the electrical wiring in my
house (the little that I know)...

--The house was built in the late '60s or early '70s.
--I believe the home inspection stated that some rooms have reverse
polarity and/or no ground.

Did it say which?. Is this one of them?

--A new service coming into the house and new circuit breaker box was
installed prior to me purchasing the house. I was under the
understanding that the issue above was corrected when this was done
(because this new service/circuit box was another issue flagged on the
inspection).

It's hard for me to follow all this but it's conceivable that whoever
did this work needs to come back and fix things, if they said they
would get rid of the problems in your previous point.

Maybe the company intended to fix this, but the actual electrician
forgot to or didn't bother or thought he had.

--The whole house has finished walls and electrical wiring is not
easily accessible.

My questions...

-- Could reverse polarity be the culprit? Or lack of proper grounding?
-- How can I test for this in this outlet (and others that may be a
problem)?
-- If this is a polarity issue, I believe that I can fix this myself.
Is there any way to test to make sure that this issue is resolved
before I plug the receiver into that outlet so that I do not fry this
one too?
-- If a professional gets involved, can any one give me a ball park
idea of how much charges can be? (for example how much to correct
grounding, etc)

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On 20 Feb 2006 08:12:23 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:

Hello all,

This is the first time I have posted to this group and please excuse
any information in my post that may be inaccurate or lacking detail as
I am VERY inexperienced in electrical wiring.

Now to my problem...

Yesterday I had Dish Network come to my house to install satellite in
my house. Every thing was going smoothly through the rewiring of the
Coax cabling (this was of an older variety and needed to be replaced to
support the satellite signal.) After all the wiring and the dish was
mounted, the technician proceeded to install the two receivers. The
first one went fine, with no problems and while it was downloading
software and guide data, he went to another room in the house to
install the second receiver. He plugged in the second receiver into a
near by surge protector.

He then needed to adjust the wiring coming into the receiver and when
he touched to the receiver box and the wiring on the back got a jolt of
electricity. He said that it felt "like the 110V variety" and that the
current running through the coax should only be about 16V (I think that
is what he said). So he unplugged the unit from the surge protector
and made some changes to the cabling and then decided to try pluggin
the power cable directly into the wall outlet and it tripped the
circuit breaker in the main breaker box.

He said that it was a was possibly a defective unit and went to the
truck to get a replacement. He brought this new unit in and hooked up
all the cabling prior to hooking up the power. He then tried to
plugged the power into the wall outlet and before the plug was even
inserted in the wall jack it sparked and left a black area around the
screw that holds the face plate on.

We took the receiver box to another room and plugged it in and
everything was ok. So we decided to run a heavy-duty extension cord
from that outlet to the room where the receiver needed to be hooked up
in. This is currently how things are but I would like to rolve the
issues for that outlet near the location of the receiver. I do not
want a bright orange extension cord running from one room to another.

Here is some general information about the electrical wiring in my
house (the little that I know)...

--The house was built in the late '60s or early '70s.
--I believe the home inspection stated that some rooms have reverse
polarity and/or no ground.
--A new service coming into the house and new circuit breaker box was
installed prior to me purchasing the house. I was under the
understanding that the issue above was corrected when this was done
(because this new service/circuit box was another issue flagged on the
inspection).
--The whole house has finished walls and electrical wiring is not
easily accessible.

My questions...

-- Could reverse polarity be the culprit? Or lack of proper grounding?
-- How can I test for this in this outlet (and others that may be a
problem)?
-- If this is a polarity issue, I believe that I can fix this myself.
Is there any way to test to make sure that this issue is resolved
before I plug the receiver into that outlet so that I do not fry this
one too?
-- If a professional gets involved, can any one give me a ball park
idea of how much charges can be? (for example how much to correct
grounding, etc)

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob

Get yourself one of those polarity testers for about $7 and test the
outlets. If the polarity is reversed, reverse the wires on the
outlets. It's not that big of a deal to do. Just be sure to shut off
the power first.

Of course, if you prefer, I will do the job for $10,000 plus the cost
of my airfare.....

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:38:29 -0500, dnoyeB
wrote:


wrote:

Nearly all new dishnetwork receivers use 3 prong plugs, primarily
because a lot of installers dont ground the coax properly.

You can ask question at: http://www.satelliteguys.us/index.php


If the coax is not grounded properly you have a serious problem. Its a
bad idea to ground something thats outside of your house (especially on
your roof), by way of something inside your house.



Does this apply to grounding a satellite dish to an outside water
faucet?



Yes. For instance, if lightning hits that dish, the flow will direct it
into your house, by way of that faucet. You would rather have the
lightning ground itself outside of your house without ever entering.

The cable line, phone line, and gas lines should all be grounded, and at
the same place, outside of your house. Water line is a bit different
since it tends to enter the house underground. Now sure how or where
its grounded.

--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Wow!!! Thank you everyone for all of the posts. It has been extremely
helpful.

I did buy one of the three prong testers and tested the problem outlet.
The reading showed that there is indeed reverse polarity on that
outlet. It however did not show anything wrong with the ground. I did
not get a chance to turn off that circuit (my wife was watching a tv
show all night) and look at the wiring to see if there was anything
unusual such as what was described as a "bootleg ground".

The only thing that still bothers me as far as determining the final
problem/solution is that I also tested the outlet in the adjacent room
that the extension cord is plugged into and it showed the same test
results; reverse polarity but nothing wrong with the ground.

Let me further qualify what I mean when I stated the test results for
both outlets above (both tested the same way). The light pattern on
the tester corresponded with the description: hot/neutral reversed.

I did not get a chance to test the voltages between the different parts
of the outlet (I could not find my voltmeter last night) but I
hopefully I can get those results tonight.

The possibilty of the ground being hot is starting to make a little
sense now. Before all of this happened we did have things plugged into
this outlet. There was a surge protector plugged in and then a tv and
lamp both plugged in to the surge protector (both are two prong
devices). So the satellite receiver is the first 3-pront device that
has been plugged into this outlet to my knowledge. Right now the
extension cord is plugged into a three prong outlet as well but the
extension cord is old and is only 2 prong. The satellite receiver has
one of the 3-prong-to-2-prong adapters on the end of its power cord and
then plugged into the extension cord.

However, the tester has light patterns that are supposed to indicate an
energized ground, right?

One last thing that I just thought that may (or may not) help shed some
light on this. The installer was working outside on the dish and I did
see him hook a grouding wire up to a coax connector that joined the
coax lines from the dish to the coax lines going into the house.
However it was extremely cold out and he said that he was going to
attach the grounding wire to the Service conduit that runs from the
room of the house to the ground after he came in and warmed up and
finished hooking up the receivers. Well, he hooked up the first
receiver which plugged into a very expension Monster Power Surge
Protector and Line Conditioner and everything was ok. It was then
that he tried to hook up the other receiver that we had the problems
with the outlet and the shocking. After we relocated it with the
extension cord that was only 2-prong and got it set up, he went back
outside and tried hooking up the ground wire to the service conduit.
He had me go back inside and unplug that receiver because when he would
get the ground wire close to the clamp he put on the conduit it would
arc. After unplugging he was able to hook it up and then we plugged it
back in and everything was fine.

Could the fact that he did not have this hooked up in the first place
be part of the problem? Is there anything I should be looking for now
that this has came to light?

Thank you again for everyone's help!

OOPS! This may be confusing, it's a typo!

However it was extremely cold out and he said that he was going to
attach the grounding wire to the Service conduit that runs from the
room of the house to the ground after he came in and warmed up and
finished hooking up the receivers.

Should have been...

However it was extremely cold out and he said that he was going to
attach the grounding wire to the Service conduit that runs from the
**roof** of the house to the ground after he came in and warmed up and
finished hooking up the receivers.

Bob

Get yourself one of those polarity testers for about $7 and test the
outlets. If the polarity is reversed, reverse the wires on the
outlets. It's not that big of a deal to do. Just be sure to shut off
the power first.



The problem described still sound more like a hot ground than
reversed polarity, to me. Which means that OP has at least
two problems:
1: the ground wire isn't grounded, and
2: Something is dumping line current onto the ground.

I wouldn't just use a polarity tester in this case,
I think you should kill the power to that circut,
take outlet completely apart, Wire-nut everything,
turn the power back on, and then come back with
a voltage tester and test each wire in the box
individually, starting by testing for
voltage on the box itself.
You should also check for voltage
between the ground on other plugs on that circut,
and the ground on some other circut, because there's
a fairly good chance that ALL the grounds are hot,
and you just haven't noticed yet.

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
OOPS! This may be confusing, it's a typo!

However it was extremely cold out and he said that he was going to
attach the grounding wire to the Service conduit that runs from the
room of the house to the ground after he came in and warmed up and
finished hooking up the receivers.

Should have been...

However it was extremely cold out and he said that he was going to
attach the grounding wire to the Service conduit that runs from the
**roof** of the house to the ground after he came in and warmed up and
finished hooking up the receivers.


It sounds as though you do have an energized grounding conductor at one or
more outlets. I don't know if those little testers have a light combination
for that. You need to use the voltmeter or maybe a pigtail light bulb. It
makes sense if the dish cable was grounded when the satellite box was
plugged into the suspect receptacle. An energized receptacle ground would
create a dead short to the satellite cable ground to produce an arc or trip
the circuit breaker. The problem may not be in that particular receptacle
though. You should identify everything on that circuit and open them all
up.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

"Bob" wrote in message oups.com...
I agree that I really do not want to jump in and get my feet wet on
something like this.

Doing electrical work with wet feet is very hazardous.

Bob

I plan on trying to perform some of these tests that everyone is
suggesting, but it is sounding more and more like I may have a problem
that I will not be able to fix myself. Can someone give me some
information on what I can expect if I call an electrician in?

-- Is it an option to have an electrician come in and do an assessment
of the situation and give me an estimate of the charges without
committing to any work being done right away?
-- If so, how long should an assessment like that take? I know that
someone stated that rates can vary from approx. $50-150 and I realize
that this is just a best-guess but I would like to know a ball park
idea of what to expect so I can plan on that expense.
-- When an electrician comes in, I assume that to make things easier
and quicker, easy access to all outlets and switches and the breaker
panel would be needed. Is there any other suggestions that would make
mine and the electrician's life easier before they come to look at it?
-- I had planned in the future to have an electrician come in and redo
the upstairs outlets since most of them are not grounded outlets. How
much of an expense or time can I expect out of such a job?

I realize that my questions about costs and time are very hard to
answer since it always is different from job to job, but like I've said
before, I'm just looking for general ball park ideas on how I should
start planning to fund these expenses. My ultimate concern is for the
safety of my family.

Thank you to everyone for you input, I would still appreciate any
comments or suggestions on things I can try to test or do!

panel would be needed. Is there any other suggestions that would make
mine and the electrician's life easier before they come to look at it?
-- I had planned in the future to have an electrician come in and redo
the upstairs outlets since most of them are not grounded outlets. How
much of an expense or time can I expect out of such a job?

I realize that my questions about costs and time are very hard to
answer since it always is different from job to job, but like I've said
before, I'm just looking for general ball park ideas on how I should
start planning to fund these expenses. My ultimate concern is for the
safety of my family.

If you feel like you're in over your head,
then what you should do is kill that circut
at the service panel, and then call a local
electrician and explain the symptoms, and ask
HIM what he will and will not do, and for
how much.

For reasons of human safety and transistor safety, that coax must
connect to the single point earthing before it enters the building. It
is not acceptable to connect to safety ground wires inside the building
for numerous reasons.

This assumes you have provided single point earthing - typically a
ground rod that connects breaker box a short distance to earth ground.
A post 1990 code requirement. Every incoming service (including
telephone line surge protector installed by the telco for free) should
connect less than 10 feet to this earthing. If that single point
earthing does not exist, then, well one installer is said to have
grounded his coax install into earth of a flower box.

That coax cannot be grounded to a 'grounding wire to the Service
conduit that runs from the room of the house'. It is not acceptable
and will not provide the transient protection that your cable
appliances require. The installer is supposed to know that.

A reversal of hot and neutral must still not create the human shocks
described. But is does suggest someone with insufficient knowledge was
working on the electrical system.

From information provided, no one can tell you how much it will cost.
Much more information is required. For example, take the cover off
the breaker box. Inspect (and don't touch) every wire incoming to that
box. Typically each wire would be a black, white, and bare copper. Do
white and bare copper wires go to a common bus bar? Does each black
wire go to a circuit breaker? This are details that one needs before
started to guess costs.

Another trick uses the multimeter; a tool so ubiquitous as to even be
sold in Sears, Home Depot, Lowes, and Radio Shack. Using a three wire
extension cord from that 'questionable' outlet, measure voltage from
ground hole on extension cord to breaker box cover. There should be no
voltage. If voltage exists, then your three prong tester may instead
report a 'hot neutral reversal'. IOW your tester makes an assumption -
that the ground wire is really ground. If not, then the tester assumes
your hot - neutral are reversed.

Just another example of why a meter is a far more useful tool.

I once visited a location where electronics were behaving badly.
Opened the breaker box. Someone had cut off all safety ground wires.
This 'genius' had reasoned that the safety ground wires were a danger
when connected to something inside the box. Massive rewiring job
required to repair this genius' revelation. Any three prong appliance
that went hot would then make all other appliances hot - dangerous. I
sincerely hope that genius was not a previous home owner in your town.
What he did could create your symptoms.

Cable must connect from ground block, less than 10 feet, to an earth
ground shared by all incoming utilities.. Cable must not be grounded to
safety ground wires inside the building.

Bob wrote:
OOPS! This may be confusing, it's a typo!

However it was extremely cold out and he said that he was going to
attach the grounding wire to the Service conduit that runs from the
room of the house to the ground after he came in and warmed up and
finished hooking up the receivers.

Should have been...

However it was extremely cold out and he said that he was going to
attach the grounding wire to the Service conduit that runs from the
**roof** of the house to the ground after he came in and warmed up and
finished hooking up the receivers.

Goedjn, you know what you are right (it's common sense), but I also do
think that your previous posting is helpful to me at all.

All I have been asking for is suggestions, opinions, and experiences
that people may have had that can help me understand my situation
better. I have not had a chance yet to call an electrician and ask
these questions or even try some of the suggested testing (been putting
in long hours at work this week and have not had time). Ultimately I
know that things such as EXACT costs and time will have to come from
the electrician that I request services from (if and when I take that
route). But I do not think that it will hurt to ask this group for
some feedback to have a better understanding of some things I should
look for or can expect.

Again, thank you to everyone else for the helpful suggestions and
comments and to Goedjn you first post was very informative and I will
take your advice for testing. As for you last post, thanks for nothing!