Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am
visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her
heat pump.

The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the
thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to
run.

She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem.

The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded
"Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green
grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide
mobile home.

It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the
coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory.

She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would
be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it
make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks,

Note: Sorry for the double-post, I initially put this in the alt.hvac
forum, until it was suggested I move it here.

wrote:
Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am
visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her
heat pump.

The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the
thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to
run.

She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem.

The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded
"Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green
grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide
mobile home.

It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the
coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory.

She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would
be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it
make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks,

Note: Sorry for the double-post, I initially put this in the alt.hvac
forum, until it was suggested I move it here.


At 20 years old, it's at the end of it's expected life. Plus new ones
are more efficient, which will help to reduce energy costs and pay for
itself. So, I wouldn't put more than a couple hundred bucks into
repairing this one. But, until you get someone out to look at it, you
won't know what's wrong or if it's worth fixing.

wrote

The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the
thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to
run.

She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem.

The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded
"Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green
grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide
mobile home.

It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the
coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory.

She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would
be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it
make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks,

If it's 20 years old (and a Payne!) she probably should just change the
system out. When the fan continues to run, is it putting out heat? The
reason I ask, if it's just the fan that continues to run, it SHOULDN'T but
it won't hurt anything. If the fan is running AND putting out heat (when it
should be off) then it sound like a sequensor is stuck or maybe a wire
crossed (or several other possibilities) and that is not good. It will never
shut off and it may get kind of hot in the house.

She needs to get at least 3 REPUTABLE companies to come out and give her a
quote (not an estimate) on replacing the system. If it's just the fan
running (and not the heat) she doesn't need to rush into it. A lot of people
run the fan 24 hours a day for filtration purposes. Sure it uses a little
bit more electricity, but not that much. I only say this because you don't
want to jump into this without "shopping" around. Don't worry so much about
the brand as much as the guy installing it.

Now to really confuse things: You may want to just have someone come out and
repair it. It might be something as simple as a stuck sequencer or fan
relay. But if they came out and June and "topped it off", there may be a
leak and future problems.

Good luck....

Thanks....Hm...I don't know if it was putting out heat while the fan
was on...I asked earlier actually, but she didn't know. However, my
mom said she smelled a "burning smell"...given the odor, is it
advisable to turn the circut breaker back on & see if it produces heat?


& sorry, I was misleading about "topped it off", I don't know that
there was a leak per-se, or just getting it general AC "maintenance"
before the true heat of summer.

wrote in message
ps.com...
Thanks....Hm...I don't know if it was putting out heat while the fan
was on...I asked earlier actually, but she didn't know. However, my
mom said she smelled a "burning smell"...given the odor, is it
advisable to turn the circut breaker back on & see if it produces heat?

You could try that. If you can at least get her through the weekend. Service
charge would be a little easier to swallow.




& sorry, I was misleading about "topped it off", I don't know that
there was a leak per-se, or just getting it general AC "maintenance"
before the true heat of summer.

You might not want to call THAT company.

wrote in message oups.com...
Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am
visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her
heat pump.

The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the
thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to
run.

She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem.

The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded
"Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green
grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide
mobile home.

It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the
coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory.

She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would
be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it
make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks,


The fan running all the time suggests a stuck relay contact to me. If it turns on and heats
properly, it is probably a simple fix. Sometimes just tapping on the offending part with a
screwdriver handle will knock it loose for awhile.

Bob

The outdoor unit running all the time indicates a stuck contactor as
the most likely problem. A new contactor should cost $20 to $30 plus
diagnosis and installation. I can change a contactor in 15 minutes,
and diagnose in in 15 minutes, so you will probably fall under the
minimum labor charge plus parts. It could also be a bad thermostat or
short in the thermostat cable, but those would need fixed anyway if you
replace the unit, so they are not going to make a difference in the
repair or replace discussion.

Whether to replace or not would depend some on her electric bills. If
her electric bills are low, I would fix it. If they are high, a new
high efficiency system (Both indoor & outdoor) may be a good idea even
if it weren't broken. By the way, there is a $300 Federal tax credit
for Energy Star rated high efficiency systems, starting in January
2006.

Stretch

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:18:59 -0800, "Bob" wrote:


wrote in message oups.com...
Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am
visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her
heat pump.

The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the
thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to
run.

She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem.

Don't forget to turn it back on when it gets cold in the house.

How hot was it getting by the way?

I would try to find where the burning smell is coming from before the
smell goes away. It might be important, and it might certainly help
you or a service man find a problem, if the smell is caused by the
heat pump and if the smell is related to a problem.

And I agree with Mark at the bottom.

The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded
"Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green
grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide
mobile home.

It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the
coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory.

She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would
be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it
make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks,


The fan running all the time suggests a stuck relay contact to me. If it turns on and heats
properly, it is probably a simple fix. Sometimes just tapping on the offending part with a
screwdriver handle will knock it loose for awhile.

Bob


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

OK, thanks very much everyone, stuck contactor seems to be the most
common suggestion.

The burning smell was before I even got here, so unfortuantely I don't
know where that was coming from (it may have been in her head too, as
she was not certain about it)

My brother came by today (he's a police officer, but use to be in
construction, & has some broad knowledge of home repair and such). He
reset the circuit breakers that were inside the heat pump
itself...turned it back on and everything is going fine so far...

I'm going to leave it on for the weekend while I'm here, and see if the
problem repeats. I plan on turning it off at night, so that nothing
gets damaged when I would be asleep and unaware. (I'm house sitting
for my mom)

I also plan on checking my mom's electicity bills...And thanks for the
info on the tax credit! I was vaguely aware of something like that, as
well as a program here in the state of Oregon I looked into a year ago
for her (since her heat pump was getting old any way)

The house has a wood stove, so heat isn't as critical as it could be.

Again, thanks everyone very much! I'll post if there is any new
information...and please let me know if anyone has any other input
(especially if I'm doing something foolish)

On 18 Feb 2006 17:20:25 -0800, "Stretch" wrote:

The outdoor unit running all the time indicates a stuck contactor as
the most likely problem. A new contactor should cost $20 to $30 plus
diagnosis and installation. I can change a contactor in 15 minutes,
and diagnose in in 15 minutes, so you will probably fall under the
minimum labor charge plus parts. It could also be a bad thermostat or
short in the thermostat cable, but those would need fixed anyway if you
replace the unit, so they are not going to make a difference in the
repair or replace discussion.

Whether to replace or not would depend some on her electric bills. If
her electric bills are low, I would fix it. If they are high, a new
high efficiency system (Both indoor & outdoor) may be a good idea even
if it weren't broken. By the way, there is a $300 Federal tax credit
for Energy Star rated high efficiency systems, starting in January
2006.

Stretch


Be careful. Has to be more than just Energy Star rated to get the tax
credit. Go on the Energy Star site and make sure that what you are
buying will qualify. Because it is a manufactured home, it may be a
packaged unit. When I bought mine three weeks ago, no packaged heat
pump in the tonnage range I needed qualified because no packaged heat
pump met the 9 HSPH requirement.

"Bubba " ReMoVe wrote

Sorry Bubba, but I do that. So do some others. We charge $68/ hour.
The contactor I sell for about $20.00. We have a half hour minimum
charge for residential work. We have no trip charge. We are shooting
for 10% net pretax profit, which we have exceeded the last three years.
If I went on that call and it was a bad contactor, the charge would be
$34.00 labor + $20,00 Part = $54.00 total. Tax is included in the
part. By the way, I just bought a new 2500 Chevy van, paid 1/3 down.
We have more diagnostic tools than many larger companies that I know
of. We carry more parts than most any other company in our service
area. We are profitable.


Stretch,
Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something
subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor??
I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way
would your business survive with that kind of pricing.
Bubba

I'll have to second that.

Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell
our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a standard
service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world would
you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man
company) that can afford to do that.

We don't charge trip charge either....

Stretch,
Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something
subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor??
I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way
would your business survive with that kind of pricing.
Bubba

I'll have to second that.

Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell
our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a standard
service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world would
you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man
company) that can afford to do that.

We don't charge trip charge either....

How much of your overhead is a function of where you
live, though?

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...


Stretch,
Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something
subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor??
I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way
would your business survive with that kind of pricing.
Bubba

I'll have to second that.

Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell
our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a
standard
service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world
would
you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man
company) that can afford to do that.

We don't charge trip charge either....

How much of your overhead is a function of where you
live, though?

What exactly do you mean?

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:50:09 GMT, "Red Neckerson"
wrote:


"Goedjn" wrote in message
.. .


Stretch,
Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something
subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor??
I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way
would your business survive with that kind of pricing.
Bubba

I'll have to second that.

Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell
our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a
standard
service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world
would
you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man
company) that can afford to do that.

We don't charge trip charge either....

How much of your overhead is a function of where you
live, though?

What exactly do you mean?

I't important to remember that one's personal experience, while
relevent, doesn't describe the whole world. The fact that YOU
can't make a living doing service calls at $50 a pop in your area
doesn't necessarily mean that someone else can't, somewhere else.

You have to pay a living wage to you employees, and yourself, but
what constitutes a living wage in most of, say, California is
significantly more than what it takes in, say Colebrook, NH.
Likewise, auto insurance, permits, business liscences, liability
insurance, utility bills. . . about the only thing that's likely to be
the same is the price of the physical part, and in most cases, that's
a surprisingly small fraction of the total cost of doing business.

On 19 Feb 2006 03:02:22 -0800, wrote:


The burning smell was before I even got here, so unfortuantely I don't
know where that was coming from (it may have been in her head too, as
she was not certain about it)

If there is a burning smell in her head, she should see a certified
furnace repairman or doctor** as soon as possible.

**A headologist.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is
going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part +
a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in
business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries
dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill
the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get
his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor
charge.
Nice try though.
Bubba

This summer I had a service call for my A/C not starting. A service
man quickly found a bad capacitor, and replaced it. Capicator = $8
Service Call = $70

John Normile

"John Normile" wrote in message
. ..
Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is
going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part +
a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in
business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries
dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill
the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get
his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor
charge.
Nice try though.
Bubba

This summer I had a service call for my A/C not starting. A service
man quickly found a bad capacitor, and replaced it. Capicator = $8
Service Call = $70

Depending on the capacitor, that sounds about like our charge.......6 years
ago. We were $69 for the service call. Then $89, then $109 2 years ago. We
WERE going to go to $129 January 1st, but decided not to. As I have stated
before, we are just about the cheapest in town

Bubba wrote:
On 19 Feb 2006 16:55:33 -0800, "Stretch" wrote:

Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is
going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part +
a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in
business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries
dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill
the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get
his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor
charge.
Nice try though.
Bubba



Sorry Bubba, but I do that. So do some others. We charge $68/ hour.
The contactor I sell for about $20.00. We have a half hour minimum
charge for residential work. We have no trip charge. We are shooting
for 10% net pretax profit, which we have exceeded the last three years.
If I went on that call and it was a bad contactor, the charge would be
$34.00 labor + $20,00 Part = $54.00 total. Tax is included in the
part. By the way, I just bought a new 2500 Chevy van, paid 1/3 down.
We have more diagnostic tools than many larger companies that I know
of. We carry more parts than most any other company in our service
area. We are profitable.


Stretch,
Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something
subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor??
I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way
would your business survive with that kind of pricing.
Bubba

The OP said the outdoor unit ran constantly while the indoor blower
cycled. That sounds like a stuck contactor. You may free it up for a
while, but it will likely re-occur.

Stretch



Bubba,

You have not seen my books, so how can you say what my rate should be.
In your area, the labor rate may be twice what it is in my area. You
would have to charge more. The cost for rent/mortgage may be higher on
your building. You may run a sloppy operation. Any number of thjings
could run your costs up higher than my costs. You see how often people
post to this group asking prices. The answer is always: "Depends on
where you are." You assume too much. No one subsidizes me. I always
pay my bills on time and take fast pay discounts where offerred.

I know one contractor in my area charging over 2 times what I charge,
and he is not worth it. I also know contractors chargimg less. One
inherited his home and shop from his father. That keeps his costs
down. I can't charge what he does and stay in business, but he makes a
profit because his overhead is low.

But at the same time, if it takes longer than 1/2 hour to diagnose and
replace a stuck contactor, your techs are slow. What you charge for
travel depends on what it costs you on the average and what profit you
must have.

When we moved here to Myrtle Beach SC from near Pittsburgh PA, our
rates dropped because our costs and overhead dropped. Labor rates were
1/2 what we were used to.

As the building boom here continues, our costs and rates are likely to
go up. Don't assume it is the same here as it is where you are,
because it is not.

That is all I have to say.

Stretch

Bubba,

There are 4 of us in the company, plus my wife does the bookkeeping
part time. (She Gets Paid For It by our company) We have health
insurance, paid vacation, paid holidays, profit sharing pension
fund/401K. The guys all take a truck home at night. We have a 2400
square foot shop. We pay an accountant to calculate our taxes at the
end of the year and do financials. We pay unemployment taxes. We have
a $2,000,000.00 Liability policy and have workers compensation
insurance. We carry $1,000,000.00 Vehicle insurance.

Most of our service calls are over 1/2 hour, but some fall under the
minimum charge for labor. I don't care what you charge, i charge what
I need to to make a profit, not what you need.

Our replacement systems have been 13 SEER and higher for years. We do
air balancing, mold prevention through humidity control, crawlspace
encapsulation, residential and commercial service work. We DO NOT do
new construction, not enough money in it.

I make more money than I ever did working for someone else, and will
make still more as the company grows.

Maybe you need to worry about yourself more instead of judging people
who do things that you can't.

Stretch

Bubba,

Your mind is closed, so there is no use responding further. 13 SEER
heat pump replacement averages $4500.00 installed.

Stretch