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Repair heat pump, or replace it?
Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am
visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her heat pump. The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to run. She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem. The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded "Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide mobile home. It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory. She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks, Note: Sorry for the double-post, I initially put this in the alt.hvac forum, until it was suggested I move it here. |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
wrote: Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her heat pump. The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to run. She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem. The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded "Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide mobile home. It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory. She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks, Note: Sorry for the double-post, I initially put this in the alt.hvac forum, until it was suggested I move it here. At 20 years old, it's at the end of it's expected life. Plus new ones are more efficient, which will help to reduce energy costs and pay for itself. So, I wouldn't put more than a couple hundred bucks into repairing this one. But, until you get someone out to look at it, you won't know what's wrong or if it's worth fixing. |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
wrote The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to run. She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem. The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded "Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide mobile home. It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory. She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks, If it's 20 years old (and a Payne!) she probably should just change the system out. When the fan continues to run, is it putting out heat? The reason I ask, if it's just the fan that continues to run, it SHOULDN'T but it won't hurt anything. If the fan is running AND putting out heat (when it should be off) then it sound like a sequensor is stuck or maybe a wire crossed (or several other possibilities) and that is not good. It will never shut off and it may get kind of hot in the house. She needs to get at least 3 REPUTABLE companies to come out and give her a quote (not an estimate) on replacing the system. If it's just the fan running (and not the heat) she doesn't need to rush into it. A lot of people run the fan 24 hours a day for filtration purposes. Sure it uses a little bit more electricity, but not that much. I only say this because you don't want to jump into this without "shopping" around. Don't worry so much about the brand as much as the guy installing it. Now to really confuse things: You may want to just have someone come out and repair it. It might be something as simple as a stuck sequencer or fan relay. But if they came out and June and "topped it off", there may be a leak and future problems. Good luck.... |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
Thanks....Hm...I don't know if it was putting out heat while the fan
was on...I asked earlier actually, but she didn't know. However, my mom said she smelled a "burning smell"...given the odor, is it advisable to turn the circut breaker back on & see if it produces heat? & sorry, I was misleading about "topped it off", I don't know that there was a leak per-se, or just getting it general AC "maintenance" before the true heat of summer. |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
wrote in message ps.com... Thanks....Hm...I don't know if it was putting out heat while the fan was on...I asked earlier actually, but she didn't know. However, my mom said she smelled a "burning smell"...given the odor, is it advisable to turn the circut breaker back on & see if it produces heat? You could try that. If you can at least get her through the weekend. Service charge would be a little easier to swallow. & sorry, I was misleading about "topped it off", I don't know that there was a leak per-se, or just getting it general AC "maintenance" before the true heat of summer. You might not want to call THAT company. |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
wrote in message oups.com... Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her heat pump. The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to run. She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem. The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded "Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide mobile home. It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory. She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks, The fan running all the time suggests a stuck relay contact to me. If it turns on and heats properly, it is probably a simple fix. Sometimes just tapping on the offending part with a screwdriver handle will knock it loose for awhile. Bob |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
The outdoor unit running all the time indicates a stuck contactor as
the most likely problem. A new contactor should cost $20 to $30 plus diagnosis and installation. I can change a contactor in 15 minutes, and diagnose in in 15 minutes, so you will probably fall under the minimum labor charge plus parts. It could also be a bad thermostat or short in the thermostat cable, but those would need fixed anyway if you replace the unit, so they are not going to make a difference in the repair or replace discussion. Whether to replace or not would depend some on her electric bills. If her electric bills are low, I would fix it. If they are high, a new high efficiency system (Both indoor & outdoor) may be a good idea even if it weren't broken. By the way, there is a $300 Federal tax credit for Energy Star rated high efficiency systems, starting in January 2006. Stretch |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:18:59 -0800, "Bob" wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her heat pump. The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to run. She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem. Don't forget to turn it back on when it gets cold in the house. How hot was it getting by the way? I would try to find where the burning smell is coming from before the smell goes away. It might be important, and it might certainly help you or a service man find a problem, if the smell is caused by the heat pump and if the smell is related to a problem. And I agree with Mark at the bottom. The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded "Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide mobile home. It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory. She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks, The fan running all the time suggests a stuck relay contact to me. If it turns on and heats properly, it is probably a simple fix. Sometimes just tapping on the offending part with a screwdriver handle will knock it loose for awhile. Bob Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also. |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
OK, thanks very much everyone, stuck contactor seems to be the most
common suggestion. The burning smell was before I even got here, so unfortuantely I don't know where that was coming from (it may have been in her head too, as she was not certain about it) My brother came by today (he's a police officer, but use to be in construction, & has some broad knowledge of home repair and such). He reset the circuit breakers that were inside the heat pump itself...turned it back on and everything is going fine so far... I'm going to leave it on for the weekend while I'm here, and see if the problem repeats. I plan on turning it off at night, so that nothing gets damaged when I would be asleep and unaware. (I'm house sitting for my mom) I also plan on checking my mom's electicity bills...And thanks for the info on the tax credit! I was vaguely aware of something like that, as well as a program here in the state of Oregon I looked into a year ago for her (since her heat pump was getting old any way) The house has a wood stove, so heat isn't as critical as it could be. Again, thanks everyone very much! I'll post if there is any new information...and please let me know if anyone has any other input (especially if I'm doing something foolish) |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
On 18 Feb 2006 17:20:25 -0800, "Stretch" wrote:
The outdoor unit running all the time indicates a stuck contactor as the most likely problem. A new contactor should cost $20 to $30 plus diagnosis and installation. I can change a contactor in 15 minutes, and diagnose in in 15 minutes, so you will probably fall under the minimum labor charge plus parts. It could also be a bad thermostat or short in the thermostat cable, but those would need fixed anyway if you replace the unit, so they are not going to make a difference in the repair or replace discussion. Whether to replace or not would depend some on her electric bills. If her electric bills are low, I would fix it. If they are high, a new high efficiency system (Both indoor & outdoor) may be a good idea even if it weren't broken. By the way, there is a $300 Federal tax credit for Energy Star rated high efficiency systems, starting in January 2006. Stretch Be careful. Has to be more than just Energy Star rated to get the tax credit. Go on the Energy Star site and make sure that what you are buying will qualify. Because it is a manufactured home, it may be a packaged unit. When I bought mine three weeks ago, no packaged heat pump in the tonnage range I needed qualified because no packaged heat pump met the 9 HSPH requirement. |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
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Repair heat pump, or replace it?
Stretch, Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor?? I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way would your business survive with that kind of pricing. Bubba I'll have to second that. Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a standard service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world would you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man company) that can afford to do that. We don't charge trip charge either.... How much of your overhead is a function of where you live, though? |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
"Goedjn" wrote in message ... Stretch, Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor?? I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way would your business survive with that kind of pricing. Bubba I'll have to second that. Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a standard service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world would you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man company) that can afford to do that. We don't charge trip charge either.... How much of your overhead is a function of where you live, though? What exactly do you mean? |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:50:09 GMT, "Red Neckerson"
wrote: "Goedjn" wrote in message .. . Stretch, Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor?? I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way would your business survive with that kind of pricing. Bubba I'll have to second that. Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a standard service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world would you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man company) that can afford to do that. We don't charge trip charge either.... How much of your overhead is a function of where you live, though? What exactly do you mean? I't important to remember that one's personal experience, while relevent, doesn't describe the whole world. The fact that YOU can't make a living doing service calls at $50 a pop in your area doesn't necessarily mean that someone else can't, somewhere else. You have to pay a living wage to you employees, and yourself, but what constitutes a living wage in most of, say, California is significantly more than what it takes in, say Colebrook, NH. Likewise, auto insurance, permits, business liscences, liability insurance, utility bills. . . about the only thing that's likely to be the same is the price of the physical part, and in most cases, that's a surprisingly small fraction of the total cost of doing business. |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
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Repair heat pump, or replace it?
Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is
going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part + a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor charge. Nice try though. Bubba This summer I had a service call for my A/C not starting. A service man quickly found a bad capacitor, and replaced it. Capicator = $8 Service Call = $70 John Normile |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
"John Normile" wrote in message . .. Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part + a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor charge. Nice try though. Bubba This summer I had a service call for my A/C not starting. A service man quickly found a bad capacitor, and replaced it. Capicator = $8 Service Call = $70 Depending on the capacitor, that sounds about like our charge.......6 years ago. We were $69 for the service call. Then $89, then $109 2 years ago. We WERE going to go to $129 January 1st, but decided not to. As I have stated before, we are just about the cheapest in town |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
Bubba wrote: On 19 Feb 2006 16:55:33 -0800, "Stretch" wrote: Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part + a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor charge. Nice try though. Bubba Sorry Bubba, but I do that. So do some others. We charge $68/ hour. The contactor I sell for about $20.00. We have a half hour minimum charge for residential work. We have no trip charge. We are shooting for 10% net pretax profit, which we have exceeded the last three years. If I went on that call and it was a bad contactor, the charge would be $34.00 labor + $20,00 Part = $54.00 total. Tax is included in the part. By the way, I just bought a new 2500 Chevy van, paid 1/3 down. We have more diagnostic tools than many larger companies that I know of. We carry more parts than most any other company in our service area. We are profitable. Stretch, Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor?? I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way would your business survive with that kind of pricing. Bubba The OP said the outdoor unit ran constantly while the indoor blower cycled. That sounds like a stuck contactor. You may free it up for a while, but it will likely re-occur. Stretch Bubba, You have not seen my books, so how can you say what my rate should be. In your area, the labor rate may be twice what it is in my area. You would have to charge more. The cost for rent/mortgage may be higher on your building. You may run a sloppy operation. Any number of thjings could run your costs up higher than my costs. You see how often people post to this group asking prices. The answer is always: "Depends on where you are." You assume too much. No one subsidizes me. I always pay my bills on time and take fast pay discounts where offerred. I know one contractor in my area charging over 2 times what I charge, and he is not worth it. I also know contractors chargimg less. One inherited his home and shop from his father. That keeps his costs down. I can't charge what he does and stay in business, but he makes a profit because his overhead is low. But at the same time, if it takes longer than 1/2 hour to diagnose and replace a stuck contactor, your techs are slow. What you charge for travel depends on what it costs you on the average and what profit you must have. When we moved here to Myrtle Beach SC from near Pittsburgh PA, our rates dropped because our costs and overhead dropped. Labor rates were 1/2 what we were used to. As the building boom here continues, our costs and rates are likely to go up. Don't assume it is the same here as it is where you are, because it is not. That is all I have to say. Stretch |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
Bubba,
There are 4 of us in the company, plus my wife does the bookkeeping part time. (She Gets Paid For It by our company) We have health insurance, paid vacation, paid holidays, profit sharing pension fund/401K. The guys all take a truck home at night. We have a 2400 square foot shop. We pay an accountant to calculate our taxes at the end of the year and do financials. We pay unemployment taxes. We have a $2,000,000.00 Liability policy and have workers compensation insurance. We carry $1,000,000.00 Vehicle insurance. Most of our service calls are over 1/2 hour, but some fall under the minimum charge for labor. I don't care what you charge, i charge what I need to to make a profit, not what you need. Our replacement systems have been 13 SEER and higher for years. We do air balancing, mold prevention through humidity control, crawlspace encapsulation, residential and commercial service work. We DO NOT do new construction, not enough money in it. I make more money than I ever did working for someone else, and will make still more as the company grows. Maybe you need to worry about yourself more instead of judging people who do things that you can't. Stretch |
Repair heat pump, or replace it?
Bubba,
Your mind is closed, so there is no use responding further. 13 SEER heat pump replacement averages $4500.00 installed. Stretch |
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