Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more. My dad (who uses the same energy provider as I) got his bill
Saturday and it went from $140 the prior month to $270 this month.
Mine should be coming in a week or so, and if my usual $200 electric
bill is $400 I'm screwed!

So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?

My home is all electric, and we've already quit running the dishwasher
and we're starting to hang-dry our clothes instead of running dryer.
We're buying fluorescent bulbs to replace all the incandescent light
bulbs in our house. We've never really left the TV on while not
watching, but we do run a little XM Radio for back-ground music while
doing stuff around the house. Also I have an older fridge in the garage
we use to store sodas andsuch, but I'm pulling the plug on that and
putting it in the paper to sell (takes up too much space anyway).

What else can I and anyone in my situation do to save some extra bucks
on energy? My home is 22 years old and on a concrete foundation. As
for insulation, I'm planning on adding another layer to the attic
sometime soon. Also I have some french doors I put in not long ago
that are sitll roughed out and not well sealed -- so I'm planning on
finishing that.

As for inside the house, we've bought binds and curtains for all
windows and the french doors, which I hope will help. We also have a
ceiling fan in our bedroom we run during warmer nights... but that's
not enough for those 90'F at 11pm nights we have in the Texas summers.

I've even thought about adding a hot water heater timer, but given our
hot water heater is only 2 years old and VERY efficient, I don't know
if this'll do any real good from what I'm reading.

Is there anything I'm missing? Our electric is from a rural Coop,
which isn't regulated like others, so I can't switch companies. Also
short of adding solar panels or wind-powered generators, not sure what
else to do.

Thanks for any insight or ideas. Also is this just a Texas thing or
across the US? Thanks --

Sam Alex

Sounds like you are doing a lot. Consumer reports just said that a dish
washer uses much less water (which is hot water) than hand washing so maybe
you want to keep using it.

Real problem is our politicians and electric companies went in big for gas
powered power plants in the 90's. Gee now there is a gas shortage (helped
by Katrina). Assume much of your elec power is gas generated. Thankfully
here in Virginia ours is mostly coal and nuclear. Course my heat's gas so
I'm paying more too.

I'm afraid we are going to see alot more of this in the future.


"Alex" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more. My dad (who uses the same energy provider as I) got his bill
Saturday and it went from $140 the prior month to $270 this month.
Mine should be coming in a week or so, and if my usual $200 electric
bill is $400 I'm screwed!

So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?

My home is all electric, and we've already quit running the dishwasher
and we're starting to hang-dry our clothes instead of running dryer.
We're buying fluorescent bulbs to replace all the incandescent light
bulbs in our house. We've never really left the TV on while not
watching, but we do run a little XM Radio for back-ground music while
doing stuff around the house. Also I have an older fridge in the garage
we use to store sodas andsuch, but I'm pulling the plug on that and
putting it in the paper to sell (takes up too much space anyway).

What else can I and anyone in my situation do to save some extra bucks
on energy? My home is 22 years old and on a concrete foundation. As
for insulation, I'm planning on adding another layer to the attic
sometime soon. Also I have some french doors I put in not long ago
that are sitll roughed out and not well sealed -- so I'm planning on
finishing that.

As for inside the house, we've bought binds and curtains for all
windows and the french doors, which I hope will help. We also have a
ceiling fan in our bedroom we run during warmer nights... but that's
not enough for those 90'F at 11pm nights we have in the Texas summers.

I've even thought about adding a hot water heater timer, but given our
hot water heater is only 2 years old and VERY efficient, I don't know
if this'll do any real good from what I'm reading.

Is there anything I'm missing? Our electric is from a rural Coop,
which isn't regulated like others, so I can't switch companies. Also
short of adding solar panels or wind-powered generators, not sure what
else to do.

Thanks for any insight or ideas. Also is this just a Texas thing or
across the US? Thanks --

Sam Alex

Alex wrote:
Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more. My dad (who uses the same energy provider as I) got his bill
Saturday and it went from $140 the prior month to $270 this month.
Mine should be coming in a week or so, and if my usual $200 electric
bill is $400 I'm screwed!

So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?

My home is all electric, and we've already quit running the dishwasher
and we're starting to hang-dry our clothes instead of running dryer.
We're buying fluorescent bulbs to replace all the incandescent light
bulbs in our house. We've never really left the TV on while not
watching, but we do run a little XM Radio for back-ground music while
doing stuff around the house. Also I have an older fridge in the garage
we use to store sodas andsuch, but I'm pulling the plug on that and
putting it in the paper to sell (takes up too much space anyway).

What else can I and anyone in my situation do to save some extra bucks
on energy? My home is 22 years old and on a concrete foundation. As
for insulation, I'm planning on adding another layer to the attic
sometime soon. Also I have some french doors I put in not long ago
that are sitll roughed out and not well sealed -- so I'm planning on
finishing that.

As for inside the house, we've bought binds and curtains for all
windows and the french doors, which I hope will help. We also have a
ceiling fan in our bedroom we run during warmer nights... but that's
not enough for those 90'F at 11pm nights we have in the Texas summers.

I've even thought about adding a hot water heater timer, but given our
hot water heater is only 2 years old and VERY efficient, I don't know
if this'll do any real good from what I'm reading.

Is there anything I'm missing? Our electric is from a rural Coop,
which isn't regulated like others, so I can't switch companies. Also
short of adding solar panels or wind-powered generators, not sure what
else to do.

Thanks for any insight or ideas. Also is this just a Texas thing or
across the US? Thanks --

Sam Alex


If you want to save power you need to know where it is going. And to do
that you will need to measure every major electrical load in your home
to figure out which ones are consuming the most and then find some way
to reduce those loads without making life intolerable.

I purchased my own power meter but I understand that some utilities have
such equipment for loan to their customers. In fact your utility may
well have an energy audit program where they will come in and tell you
where your power/money are going in the home and how to improve the
situation.

Your idea of unplugging the old fridge is a good idea -- old
refrigerators are really major energy hogs compared to new ones. You can
pretty safely start using the dishwasher again since most of them are
quite efficient -- just don't run it more times in a day than absolutely
necessary and turn off the heated dry if you can live without it.

In my area the electrical rates haven't gone up noticeably but the
natural gas prices are _way_ up. Water rates are flat but the sewer
charges have just about doubled because the utility let the
infrastructure fall apart and was forced to fix major problems.

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

"Alex" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more. My dad (who uses the same energy provider as I) got his bill
Saturday and it went from $140 the prior month to $270 this month.
Mine should be coming in a week or so, and if my usual $200 electric
bill is $400 I'm screwed!

So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?

My home is all electric, and we've already quit running the dishwasher
and we're starting to hang-dry our clothes instead of running dryer.
We're buying fluorescent bulbs to replace all the incandescent light
bulbs in our house. We've never really left the TV on while not
watching, but we do run a little XM Radio for back-ground music while
doing stuff around the house. Also I have an older fridge in the garage
we use to store sodas andsuch, but I'm pulling the plug on that and
putting it in the paper to sell (takes up too much space anyway).


Sounds as if you need to plug up all the unused sockets as the power is
running out on the floor :-)

From your description you have almost nothing on that uses electricity. It
has to be going somewhere or the meter is broken. Look at the meter and
turn off all the breakers, then turn them on one at a time and see when the
wheel starts turning. That will tell you which circuit is using most of the
power, then narrow it down from there.

In the winter a clothes dryer is a double waster...

it used about 5 kW directly and it also takes nice warm air from your
home and pushes it outside. Of course this warm air is then replaced
by cold air that leaks in to replace it...which makes your heat come on
more....

Mark

I think you're on the right track. Most folks can cut their energy
consumption in half if they really try. If your climate supports it,
having deciduous shade trees on the south side of the house will
greatly help summer cooling costs. Energy costs have increased in
most areas of the US. Personally, I have cut way back on driving,
restaurants, theater, travel, and some "luxury" items. Also, I plan
to expand my vegetable garden this year to help reduce grocery bills
(I like gardening). There are a few energy conservation websites you
can get ideas too. Look at energy consumption costs when replacing an
appliance (some of the new TVs consume a lot of KWHrs).

On 17 Jan 2006 13:42:02 -0800, "Alex" wrote:

Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more. My dad (who uses the same energy provider as I) got his bill
Saturday and it went from $140 the prior month to $270 this month.
Mine should be coming in a week or so, and if my usual $200 electric
bill is $400 I'm screwed!

So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?

My home is all electric, and we've already quit running the dishwasher
and we're starting to hang-dry our clothes instead of running dryer.
We're buying fluorescent bulbs to replace all the incandescent light
bulbs in our house. We've never really left the TV on while not
watching, but we do run a little XM Radio for back-ground music while
doing stuff around the house. Also I have an older fridge in the garage
we use to store sodas andsuch, but I'm pulling the plug on that and
putting it in the paper to sell (takes up too much space anyway).

What else can I and anyone in my situation do to save some extra bucks
on energy? My home is 22 years old and on a concrete foundation. As
for insulation, I'm planning on adding another layer to the attic
sometime soon. Also I have some french doors I put in not long ago
that are sitll roughed out and not well sealed -- so I'm planning on
finishing that.

As for inside the house, we've bought binds and curtains for all
windows and the french doors, which I hope will help. We also have a
ceiling fan in our bedroom we run during warmer nights... but that's
not enough for those 90'F at 11pm nights we have in the Texas summers.

I've even thought about adding a hot water heater timer, but given our
hot water heater is only 2 years old and VERY efficient, I don't know
if this'll do any real good from what I'm reading.

Is there anything I'm missing? Our electric is from a rural Coop,
which isn't regulated like others, so I can't switch companies. Also
short of adding solar panels or wind-powered generators, not sure what
else to do.

Thanks for any insight or ideas. Also is this just a Texas thing or
across the US? Thanks --

Sam Alex

Alex wrote:

Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more.
snip

I'm in Central Texas, too (Austin), and my house is about 25 years old,
so about the same era as yours.

I think you're doing many of the right things. But I can tell you
from experience that if you have ductwork in your attic, the number
one thing to do is to check its integrity and patch any leaks. By
doing that (and some other things, most of which you listed), I cut
my electricity use in the summer by about 40%. You'd be amazed at
how much duct tape (and other materials used in ductwork) can
deteriorate in 25 years.

I have gas heat; I can imagine that electric heat could be as bad in
the winter as AC is in the summer.

A programmable thermostat can help, and not only because it can be used
to set back temperatures during part of the day -- some (many?) of them
also have sufficient "smarts" to keep the system from short-cycling,
which is wasteful and potentially harmful to your system.

The other thing I should mention is that you'd probably be surprised
at how much electricity your computer uses, especially if you have a
large CRT monitor.

Good luck, and let us know if you come up with any great ideas, because
many of us are in this boat.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Jeff wrote:
Real problem is our politicians ... went in big for gas ... Gee now there
is a gas
shortage (helped by Katrina).

There is NO political gas shortage.

Mark wrote:
In the winter a clothes dryer is a double waster...

it used about 5 kW directly and it also takes nice warm air from your
home and pushes it outside. Of course this warm air is then replaced
by cold air that leaks in to replace it...which makes your heat come
on more....

The dryer COULD push the heated air back into the house with a damper on the
exhaust.

Alex wrote:
So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?


What else can I and anyone in my situation do to save some extra bucks
on energy?

As for inside the house, we've bought binds and curtains for all
windows and the french doors, which I hope will help. We also have a
ceiling fan in our bedroom we run during warmer nights... but that's
not enough for those 90'F at 11pm nights we have in the Texas summers.

Bingo! Why cool the whole house when everybody's in the bedroom asleep?

Think efficient window unit for sleeping. You can get a 110VAC unit at
Walmart for ~$150. You'll save that much the first month.

Look into sealing leaks in your ductwork and leaks in your attic.

see:
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?...vement_sealing





"Alex" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more. My dad (who uses the same energy provider as I) got his bill
Saturday and it went from $140 the prior month to $270 this month.
Mine should be coming in a week or so, and if my usual $200 electric
bill is $400 I'm screwed!

So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?

My home is all electric, and we've already quit running the dishwasher
and we're starting to hang-dry our clothes instead of running dryer.
We're buying fluorescent bulbs to replace all the incandescent light
bulbs in our house. We've never really left the TV on while not
watching, but we do run a little XM Radio for back-ground music while
doing stuff around the house. Also I have an older fridge in the garage
we use to store sodas andsuch, but I'm pulling the plug on that and
putting it in the paper to sell (takes up too much space anyway).

What else can I and anyone in my situation do to save some extra bucks
on energy? My home is 22 years old and on a concrete foundation. As
for insulation, I'm planning on adding another layer to the attic
sometime soon. Also I have some french doors I put in not long ago
that are sitll roughed out and not well sealed -- so I'm planning on
finishing that.

As for inside the house, we've bought binds and curtains for all
windows and the french doors, which I hope will help. We also have a
ceiling fan in our bedroom we run during warmer nights... but that's
not enough for those 90'F at 11pm nights we have in the Texas summers.

I've even thought about adding a hot water heater timer, but given our
hot water heater is only 2 years old and VERY efficient, I don't know
if this'll do any real good from what I'm reading.

Is there anything I'm missing? Our electric is from a rural Coop,
which isn't regulated like others, so I can't switch companies. Also
short of adding solar panels or wind-powered generators, not sure what
else to do.

Thanks for any insight or ideas. Also is this just a Texas thing or
across the US? Thanks --

Sam Alex

"HeyBub" wrote in message

The dryer COULD push the heated air back into the house with a damper on
the exhaust.

It could , but it also introduces other problems like excessive moisture,
lint that will clog inlets on burners, etc.

John,

I have a question about power meters, I would like to do some
consumption monitoring at my house. I see the cheap plug in meters and
the $500 Fluke recording multimeters. Is there anything in between? I
would like to measure on some 220V appliances and I don;t think that
the plug in ones will do it. Any advice?

Thanks,
Kev

Quoted Text
"I purchased my own power meter but I understand that some utilities
have
such equipment for loan to their customers."

"Alex" wrote in news:1137534122.377815.22190
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

[snip]
Thanks for any insight or ideas.

Good start on saving energy.
Big cost items are usually those that involve heating/cooling:

Find and seal all leaks in your house. This one is a biggy, since extra
insulation won't do much good if the warm (or cool) air just leaks through
the holes. This can be a big job.

Put in a setback thermostat. Every degree less saves you some energy --
it's noticeable.

Since you are in a warm climate, you can probably look at area (or room)
heating. Lots less energy required than heating the entire house.

Kevtrane wrote:

John,

I have a question about power meters, I would like to do some
consumption monitoring at my house. I see the cheap plug in meters and
the $500 Fluke recording multimeters. Is there anything in between? I
would like to measure on some 220V appliances and I don;t think that
the plug in ones will do it. Any advice?

Thanks,
Kev

Quoted Text
"I purchased my own power meter but I understand that some utilities
have
such equipment for loan to their customers."

FWIW, Harbor Freight has some really cheap, serviceable clamp-on
ammeters. They won't give you all the information a wattmeter would
(especially when power factor is important) but they can nonetheless
give you some pretty good clues at very low cost.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

free energy star quiz:
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?...cool.pr_winter

"1. Alex Jan 17, 4:42 pm

If my electric bill runs $200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks
supposed to do? "

You didn't tell us what your electric rate is or how big your house is,
but this sounds very high for a typical house
without using electric for AC or heat. I second the idea previously
suggested of finding out exactly how much
power you are really using, where it's going and figuring out if the
meter is correct.

FWIW, Harbor Freight has some really cheap, serviceable clamp-on
ammeters. They won't give you all the information a wattmeter would
(especially when power factor is important) but they can nonetheless
give you some pretty good clues at very low cost.


My appretice had a cheap meter. We used it on a service call. We
turned the power off at a breaker marked for that unit and checked it
with his meter. It showed 0 volts. I started disconnecting a wire and
got lit up by 240 volts. We tossed his meter and got mine. A cheap
meter can kill you, it certanly will not give you good answers. I have
seen many times that cheap meters lie to you (not accurate) but his was
the worst.

If you are measuring anything, good tools will give you better answers.

Stretch

Jeff ) said...

Sounds like you are doing a lot. Consumer reports just said that a dish
washer uses much less water (which is hot water) than hand washing so maybe
you want to keep using it.

Running the dishwasher (and clothes washer and dryer) in off peak hours
can result in a savings. For most of us, this savings is not direct as
we pay for electricity based on how much we use, not when we use it, but
the utility's price will be based on what they pay and it is related to
when it is used, so any shift in the load to an off peak time will
indirectly effect price. If you have a smart meter, it will save you
directly.

That said, be careful HOW you shift your usage to an off peak time.
I know a number of people who use the delayed start feature on their
diswhashers to have it clean the dishes in the middle of the night, and
this can be MORE costly.

Some dishwashers have fully electronic controls so you can specify what
cycle to use and when. Many do not, and they use a dial you turn to the
various settings. Our dishwasher is of this type and we can set a delayed
start up to 6 hours. The trouble is, when this is done the WHOLE dial is
used, so when the cleaning actually takes place we get a HEAVY cycle. If
the load of dishes can be sufficiently cleaned with the normal cycle or
even the short cycle, we are stuck with the heavy cycle when using the
delayed start.

By simply starting the dishwasher before going to bed, it is possible to
select the cycle needed.

There is another issue that applies if your hot water is heated with
natural gas or propane. Both of these (at least in our area) are cheaper
than electricity. When manually starting the dishwasher, you can first run
the hot water until it gets hot, so the dishwasher gets filled with
gas-heated water. On the delayed cycle, it fills with cooler water that is
in the pipes. The dishwasher will then heat, by more expensive electricity,
the water so that it is at the temperature needed to wash the dishes.

Of course, if your hot water is electrically heated, it doessn't matter
whether the hot water heater heats it or the dishwasher (it may actually
be more efficient for the dishwasher to heat it in this case!).

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the great advice and feedback! Someone said I didn't give
much info on my home, electric rate, etc. My home was built around
1982 and is 1600 sqft. It's on a concrete slab with an attic spanning
the entire length of the house. It's also all electric with central
air and heat.

The house was built with small 35"x35" windows in the bedrooms and a
35"x70" window in the living room -- all about 4 feet off the ground.
I was told this house was built during the early 80's 'energy crunch',
so I'd think this would help. We have curtains and blinds in every
window though.

The biggest thing I think that's pinging us is the french doors I put
in our dining room/kitchen (pretty much the same room). They're all
glass doors, but we have drapes over them. I also didn't finish out
the doors, so though there's no gaping huge hole, it's not sealed all
that well. I'm sealing and finishing this next paycheck.

I'm not sure how insulation is rated, but I'll get into my attic and
measure the thickness of the insulation. Also we have a three bedroom
house, but one bedroom is a guest room we rarely use. Would it be
practical to close the air vent in this room and keep the door closed?
I'd say that room is about 300 sqft, so that'd mean we're
heating/cooling only 1300 sqft instead of 1600.

As for the dishwasher, I do have a new one (about one year old), and it
does have the option to turn off heated drying. I'll start using that
instead. Also the clothes dryer is in a utility room, so I'll close
the vent in there and keep that door shut when being used. That might
help alittle too.

I think the key is getting the house better insulated. I'm not sure if
there's anyway to better insulate the walls and windows (short of
replacing the windows which is $$$), but I do plan on getting more
insulation for the attic.

Thanks again for all the feedback...

Sam

About the only other things I can think of are to apply a reflective glazing
to your south-facing windows. There is also a reflective foil for the attic
which you lay on the insulation to 'bounce' the thermal energy away form the
living space. I wonder what this does to shingle life in the long term.


"Alex" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more.

snip

"C & E" wrote in message
...
About the only other things I can think of are to apply a reflective
glazing to your south-facing windows. There is also a reflective foil for
the attic which you lay on the insulation to 'bounce' the thermal energy
away form the living space. I wonder what this does to shingle life in
the long term.


I am in error here. If you read this
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/radiant/rb_01.html
you will see that laying the relflective barrier directly on the insulation
will negate much of
its beneficial properties. Apologies!

"Alex" wrote in message
Thanks for the great advice and feedback! Someone said I didn't give
much info on my home, electric rate, etc. My home was built around
1982 and is 1600 sqft. It's on a concrete slab with an attic spanning
the entire length of the house. It's also all electric with central
air and heat.

My house is the same size and built in 1978. My electric rate was .15 kWh
and my last bill was $159 for December, no heat (except running the burner)
I have two refrigerators, freezer, wine fridge, electric dryer. Last month
the consumption was 1080 kWh. December required more lighting and since my
grandson moved in with us the bill jumped about $30 for dryer use more than
anything. (not to mention the food bill)

Hi Everyone,

I just called my electric coop, and they're charging 13.75 cents per
kWh. I'll check my next bill, which comes out on the 19th, and see
what my useage is for the last 30 days. I sure hope it's not too crazy
because I can see the costs inching up.

I found this site that is great:
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/howmuch.html

I'll be keeping a spreadsheet of our used kilowatt hours per month and
seeing what I can do to shave the price. I'm also looking into further
insulation for the attic and plugging the places where hot and cool air
leave the house.

It still doesn't help that my central air and heating system is almost
22 years old... I'm sure that thing SUCKS the power.

Oh hum -- one more worry in life I didn't need :-/

Sam

Probably more accurately, many utilities use gas as boiler-fuel in
steam plants. Relatively quick, cheap and dirty changeover for them.

Rather than using the gas to power gas-turbines or diesels and see some
efficiency. Or, even fund research on Stirling engines.

They just buy huge quantities of gas at low rates and monitor
cash-flow.

Coal is the problem of the guy downwind. Nukes are quite thermally
inefficient (saturated steam) and are essentially uninsured.

Enjoy,
J

One other thing not mentioned yet is thermostatically-controlled attic
ventilation. Works great for me in SW CT, so I don't know how you
survive without one from June to October in TX.

You can get a fan and t-stat pkg for $100. Took me a couple hours to
make up a transition from plywood to attach it at gable. Effect is
clearly noticeable in mid-pm temps on floor below in Aug., and shingles
should roast much more slowly. Just be sure you have adequate inlet
area. (Insulation is below attic floor in my case- you want to vent
above the insulation.)

HTH,
J

Kevtrane wrote:
John,

I have a question about power meters, I would like to do some
consumption monitoring at my house. I see the cheap plug in meters and
the $500 Fluke recording multimeters. Is there anything in between? I
would like to measure on some 220V appliances and I don;t think that
the plug in ones will do it. Any advice?

Thanks,
Kev

Quoted Text
"I purchased my own power meter but I understand that some utilities
have
such equipment for loan to their customers."


I use the cheapest model from Brand Electronics and it does the little I
need it to do although having the ability to monitor 240V loads might be
occasionally useful to me. Brand does sell a 240V meter but they call it
their "whole house" model and with the two current transducers required
for the job it costs about $300. There may be others out there and I'm
sure that a Google search would turn up something.

Measuring true power is a bit trickier than it might appear since it
involves monitoring current but without interfering or modifying the
circuit unnecessarily, monitoring the voltage, then calculating the true
power many times per AC cycle, then integrating and displaying the
result. Add to that the $ calculations and long-term integration of
results that most users want and the design quickly becomes non-trivial.
Of course if the load is purely resistive some shortcuts like using a
clamp-on ammeter and a decent RMS voltmeter and doing the calculation
for instantaneous power manually but most users would balk at that
amount of work.

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

"One other thing not mentioned yet is thermostatically-controlled attic

ventilation. Works great for me in SW CT, so I don't know how you
survive without one from June to October in TX. "

Since his prime concern is energy usage, a ridge vent will do the same
thing
without using any energy.

"Stretch" wrote in message
ups.com...
: FWIW, Harbor Freight has some really cheap, serviceable
clamp-on
: ammeters. They won't give you all the information a wattmeter
would
: (especially when power factor is important) but they can
nonetheless
: give you some pretty good clues at very low cost.
:
:
: My appretice had a cheap meter. We used it on a service call.
We
: turned the power off at a breaker marked for that unit and
checked it
: with his meter. It showed 0 volts. I started disconnecting a
wire and
: got lit up by 240 volts. We tossed his meter and got mine. A
cheap
: meter can kill you, it certanly will not give you good answers.
I have
: seen many times that cheap meters lie to you (not accurate) but
his was
: the worst.
:
: If you are measuring anything, good tools will give you better
answers.
:
: Stretch
:
Uhhhh, you used a clamp-on to measure VOLTAGE? Or are you
talking about a different kind of cheap meter? (rhetorical only)
You used a meter without knowing it worked? Were the cords
plugged into the right jacks? Set to measure volts & not OFF or
?? . Sounds like a fishtale to me, especially with your
reference to an "appretice" which was probably supposed to lend
credibility?

Pop

"My appretice had a cheap meter. We used it on a service call.
We
: turned the power off at a breaker marked for that unit and
checked it
: with his meter. It showed 0 volts. I started disconnecting a
wire and
: got lit up by 240 volts. "

Which is why even after turning off the breaker, or seeing 0 volts,
I still treat it as possibly alive, until I can try shorting the hot to
ground.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:56:13 GMT, "Jeff" wrote:

Sounds like you are doing a lot. Consumer reports just said that a dish
washer uses much less water (which is hot water) than hand washing so maybe
you want to keep using it.

Real problem is our politicians and electric companies went in big for gas
powered power plants in the 90's.

They built one of those here (East Texas). The electricity where I
live actually comes from coal.

Gee now there is a gas shortage (helped
by Katrina). Assume much of your elec power is gas generated. Thankfully
here in Virginia ours is mostly coal and nuclear. Course my heat's gas so
I'm paying more too.

I'm afraid we are going to see alot more of this in the future.


[snip]
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:58:04 -0500, John McGaw
wrote:

Alex wrote:
Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more. My dad (who uses the same energy provider as I) got his bill
Saturday and it went from $140 the prior month to $270 this month.
Mine should be coming in a week or so, and if my usual $200 electric
bill is $400 I'm screwed!

So with that being said, can someone give suggests I've not thought of
to cut the energy bill? Luckily now through the next month or two is
good open-window weather for us, but come April the temps start
creaping back up and A/C starts coming on. If my electric bill runs
$200-$300 with NO A/C or Heat, what're folks supposed to do?

My home is all electric, and we've already quit running the dishwasher
and we're starting to hang-dry our clothes instead of running dryer.
We're buying fluorescent bulbs to replace all the incandescent light
bulbs in our house. We've never really left the TV on while not
watching, but we do run a little XM Radio for back-ground music while
doing stuff around the house. Also I have an older fridge in the garage
we use to store sodas andsuch, but I'm pulling the plug on that and
putting it in the paper to sell (takes up too much space anyway).

What else can I and anyone in my situation do to save some extra bucks
on energy? My home is 22 years old and on a concrete foundation. As
for insulation, I'm planning on adding another layer to the attic
sometime soon. Also I have some french doors I put in not long ago
that are sitll roughed out and not well sealed -- so I'm planning on
finishing that.

As for inside the house, we've bought binds and curtains for all
windows and the french doors, which I hope will help. We also have a
ceiling fan in our bedroom we run during warmer nights... but that's
not enough for those 90'F at 11pm nights we have in the Texas summers.

I've even thought about adding a hot water heater timer, but given our
hot water heater is only 2 years old and VERY efficient, I don't know
if this'll do any real good from what I'm reading.

Is there anything I'm missing? Our electric is from a rural Coop,
which isn't regulated like others, so I can't switch companies. Also
short of adding solar panels or wind-powered generators, not sure what
else to do.

Thanks for any insight or ideas. Also is this just a Texas thing or
across the US? Thanks --

Sam Alex


If you want to save power you need to know where it is going. And to do
that you will need to measure every major electrical load in your home
to figure out which ones are consuming the most and then find some way
to reduce those loads without making life intolerable.

I purchased my own power meter but I understand that some utilities have
such equipment for loan to their customers. In fact your utility may
well have an energy audit program where they will come in and tell you
where your power/money are going in the home and how to improve the
situation.

Your idea of unplugging the old fridge is a good idea -- old
refrigerators are really major energy hogs compared to new ones. You can
pretty safely start using the dishwasher again since most of them are
quite efficient -- just don't run it more times in a day than absolutely
necessary and turn off the heated dry if you can live without it.


And turn off the cabinet heater in the refrigerator. These are often
confusingly labeled "energy saver". Where "on" is acutely "off" for
the heater.

In my area the electrical rates haven't gone up noticeably but the
natural gas prices are _way_ up. Water rates are flat but the sewer
charges have just about doubled because the utility let the
infrastructure fall apart and was forced to fix major problems.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:33:40 GMT, CJT wrote:

Kevtrane wrote:

John,

I have a question about power meters, I would like to do some
consumption monitoring at my house. I see the cheap plug in meters and
the $500 Fluke recording multimeters. Is there anything in between? I
would like to measure on some 220V appliances and I don;t think that
the plug in ones will do it. Any advice?

Thanks,
Kev

Quoted Text
"I purchased my own power meter but I understand that some utilities
have
such equipment for loan to their customers."

FWIW, Harbor Freight has some really cheap, serviceable clamp-on
ammeters. They won't give you all the information a wattmeter would
(especially when power factor is important) but they can nonetheless
give you some pretty good clues at very low cost.

Can the clamp-on ammeter be used without separating wires?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Hey Guys --

Is there a good meter I can plug in between an appliance to the wall to
simply show the watts being used? I'd love to use something like this
for things like my fridge, coffee maker, TV, cable box, etc. I created
a spreadsheet with everything in my house that sucks power, and if I
can get an accurate count of what each appliance uses I can see how
much each thing costs if I run it for X hours per day for Y number of
days being charged Z per kWh. Yup, I'm a nerd if anyone asks

Also I'm looking at prices of florescent bulbs, and those things aren't
cheap! Our ceiling fans use those smaller decorative bulbs, and I'm
finding them no cheaper then $10 a bulb online. But I figure the 4 50
watts in my ceiling fan costs me about $3.30 a month to run where if I
replaced these with 12 watt CFL bulbs it'd just be $0.79 for the same
fan. Granted that's only like $2.50 a month per fan, but it'll pay for
itself in about 1.5 years. Replacing lights in 4 fans would save
$10/month right there a month on electricity even though the investment
is steap up front.

Note: I'm getting the costs above with the following formula:
( bulb wattage x 4 bulbs per fan x 4 hours/day x 30 days/month / 1000
[convert to kWh] x .1375) My electric company charges 13.75 cents per
kWh.

And what are ya'lls thoughts on hot water heater timers? I have a new
50 gallon hot water heater (electric) I put in last year, and it's not
a cheapo one -- so i assume it's very efficient. Would I get any
noticeable benefits using a timer?

Thanks again --

Sam

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:49:34 GMT, CJT wrote:

Alex wrote:

Hi all,

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in Central Texas
(specially out in the country) the energy prices are doubling if not
more.
snip

I'm in Central Texas, too (Austin), and my house is about 25 years old,
so about the same era as yours.


Mine's about the same (built about 1969).

I think you're doing many of the right things. But I can tell you
from experience that if you have ductwork in your attic, the number
one thing to do is to check its integrity and patch any leaks. By
doing that (and some other things, most of which you listed), I cut
my electricity use in the summer by about 40%. You'd be amazed at
how much duct tape (and other materials used in ductwork) can
deteriorate in 25 years.


Somewhere, I heard that one thing duct tape isn't good for is fixing
heating ducts.

I have gas heat; I can imagine that electric heat could be as bad in
the winter as AC is in the summer.


I used to live in an all-electric apartment (in East Texas). The
electric bills peaked in both summer and winter. IIRC both peaks were
the same height. I have gas in this house, and there's a significant
difference.

BTW, the gas bill I got after Christmas was the highest I've ever had
although a neighbor with a similar house had one for more than twice
that.

A programmable thermostat can help, and not only because it can be used
to set back temperatures during part of the day -- some (many?) of them
also have sufficient "smarts" to keep the system from short-cycling,
which is wasteful and potentially harmful to your system.


I know that's a problem for compressors. How would it effect gas or
electric heat?

The other thing I should mention is that you'd probably be surprised
at how much electricity your computer uses, especially if you have a
large CRT monitor.


It's a good idea to turn the monitor off when you're not using it.
Your system can probably be set to do this automatically. Note that a
"screen saver" does not turn the monitor off, and does not save
energy.

I don't do this, because my monitors are connected to X10 modules, and
are automatically turned on/off with the other things (lights, fans,
TVs, ...).

Good luck, and let us know if you come up with any great ideas, because
many of us are in this boat.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

wrote:

"My appretice had a cheap meter. We used it on a service call.
We
: turned the power off at a breaker marked for that unit and
checked it
: with his meter. It showed 0 volts. I started disconnecting a
wire and
: got lit up by 240 volts. "

Which is why even after turning off the breaker, or seeing 0 volts,
I still treat it as possibly alive, until I can try shorting the hot to
ground.

Yes. Any meter, no matter how expensive, can fail (or be misused).

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:33:40 GMT, CJT wrote:


Kevtrane wrote:


John,

I have a question about power meters, I would like to do some
consumption monitoring at my house. I see the cheap plug in meters and
the $500 Fluke recording multimeters. Is there anything in between? I
would like to measure on some 220V appliances and I don;t think that
the plug in ones will do it. Any advice?

Thanks,
Kev

Quoted Text
"I purchased my own power meter but I understand that some utilities
have
such equipment for loan to their customers."


FWIW, Harbor Freight has some really cheap, serviceable clamp-on
ammeters. They won't give you all the information a wattmeter would
(especially when power factor is important) but they can nonetheless
give you some pretty good clues at very low cost.


Can the clamp-on ammeter be used without separating wires?

No, but you can make a short extension cord (or modify an existing one)
with a section in which the wires are exposed so that they can be
accessed separately.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Alex wrote:

Hey Guys --
snip

And what are ya'lls thoughts on hot water heater timers? I have a new
50 gallon hot water heater (electric) I put in last year, and it's not
a cheapo one -- so i assume it's very efficient. Would I get any
noticeable benefits using a timer?

Thanks again --

Sam

I would think electric hot water heaters should heat water at near 100%
efficiency (if you ignore losses in generating the electricity, which
are somebody else's problem), and, if well insulated, probably won't
benefit much from using a timer. But I haven't actually tried it.


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:49:34 GMT, CJT wrote:

snip

A programmable thermostat can help, and not only because it can be used
to set back temperatures during part of the day -- some (many?) of them
also have sufficient "smarts" to keep the system from short-cycling,
which is wasteful and potentially harmful to your system.



I know that's a problem for compressors. How would it effect gas or
electric heat?

I had AC in mind. I doubt it would help with heat, although starting
and stopping the furnace fan probably uses a fair amount of electricity.

snip
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

CJT writes:
Alex wrote:
And what are ya'lls thoughts on hot water heater timers? I have a new
I would think electric hot water heaters should heat water at near 100%

It makes sense if you have different peak and off peak prices for
electricity like they do in some places. Then it will probably be
acceptable to heat the water during off peak times and let it cool
when it's on peak.

--
May no harm befall you,
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")