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#1
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Steam Heat Costs
Does anyone here have natural gas steam heat (boiler furnace with
radiators)? I have an older two story house with a full basement. The boiler is in the basement. My heat bills have always been among the highest of all the people that I know. I've always accepted the high heat bills but since the price of natural gas is going up and expected to climb higher, it's begun to get my attention. My heat bill for this January was $500, up from $445 last year, and it was unseasonably warm this month. Here are my questions, for people with steam heat, and who live in a climate that's cold in the winter: If you have steam heat from natural gas, do you find that it has been expensive to run? I keep the heat turned off in a few rooms in the house, I guess I could turn off a few more, does that make much difference in the cost? Has anyone ever replaced their steam heating system with something more modern (not just the furnace), and if so how much did it cost and was it worth it? Does the new system provide lower winter heat bills? If you did replace the steam heat, what would you recommend replacing it with? I once casually asked a neighbor in the hvac business how much it would cost to totally replace my heating system with a forced air system, putting in all the ducts, and putting in central air, and he said $15,000. Does this sound about right to you? I don't even know if that included the cost of taking out all the pipes and old boiler. Do you have any tips for getting the monthly bills down? Does anyone have similarly high heat bills who are NOT running steam heat? The reason I ask this is because I notice from talking to different people that a lot of the people who have winter heat bills in the same price range as I do have steam heat. A lot of the people running forced air systems are only paying $100-$200 in the winter. I know some people who had steam heat, bills similar to mine, and pretty much no insulation in their house. They spent a lot of money to insulate their house, with the end result that the heating bills were pretty much exactly the same. I know someone else who replaced their old boiler with a new efficiency furnace, but he said there has been no appreciable change in the size of his heat bills. All this leads me to believe that the steam heat itself is the main culprit causing my high heat bills. So I thought I would ask on a wider forum if this has been your experience also? It would make sense, since steam heat is a rather outdated way of heating your house. I used to be able to heat the house to 72 degrees and I notice now to get roughly the same size bill, I'm down to 63 degrees and counting. Presumably, this is mainly due to the increasing cost of natural gas. Does anyone have any comments? |
#2
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Steam Heat Costs
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#3
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Steam Heat Costs
So you have not insulated because you think it wont help! There is your
loss. Steam can be 83% efficient, HW 96-99% units are available, it would be cheaper to convert to HW than forced air which goes from 80-94.5% efficient, but if that is possible it would cost alot.You would be at 83% with a new steam unit, you old unit may be unadjusted and to large giving 50% efficiency. You need insulation, how much do you have what type windows and what location |
#4
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Steam Heat Costs
So you have not insulated because you think it wont help
I'm not saying that at all. I haven't decided what I will or won't do at this point. I'm just wondering if there are other people out there with similar experiences, and if someone has some advice to give along the way I will happily listen. My high heat bills have never bothered me before, I've just become interested this year because of rising energy costs and concerns about shortages. I knew some people who dropped $2000 on insulating their house and got no return on their investment. If that happened to me, I'd be irritated. Since I have the same type of heat they do, it makes me hesitant. I live in north central Indiana. The highest heat bill I've heard of was from someone who paid $800 in December. I have all new energy efficient windows, the old ones WERE very drafty but I used to cover them with plastic. I haven't noticed any bill reduction with the new windows, in fact the bill has gone up (but the gas company warned us there was going to be a large rate increase). There is insulation in the attic and around the pipes in the basement, but the house is old so I don't doubt there isn't any in the walls. |
#5
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Steam Heat Costs
My previous house had hot water baseboards and insulation in the walls
and ceilings, but here's what I did and what the results we year 1: nothing - gritted teeth and bore the brunt of the full-force west wind during upstate NY winter. 100,000 BTU/hr boiler struggled to maintain the house at a balmy 60 degrees on windy days, despite a thermostat setting of 68 during the day. House in question is a ranch with an attached garage and living space above the garage: total approximate living space = 1600 sf year 2: during the summer, replaced 10 out of 12 windows with argon-filled, low-e, double pane windows (two not replaced were already double paned and special sizes). Also removed two layers of old siding, replaced with Tyvek, 3/4" polyisocyanurate foam with foil facings, and vinyl siding. The house still seemed slightly drafty and the boiler seemed to struggle to reach 60-65 degrees F still on windy days, though it wasn't as bad as the previous year. Gas bills were the same as the previous winter - HOWEVER, gas prices went up that year, so it would indicate that the windows and insulation and Tyvek had an effect. year 3: during the fall, blew in 12" of cellulose insulation on top of the existing 4" of fiberglass batts. Again, gas prices went up, my gas bill remained the same. The major difference this time was that the house actually felt more comfortable and more consistently held the desired temperature. I have since sold the house and don't have any long-term experience on how it feels now. If you can afford to insulate the walls, do it. If you can add some to the attic, do it. If you can search out air leaks in your house and seal them up, do it. Other than that, it sounds like converting from steam to a newer, more efficient hot water system would be best for your situation. Better yet, call around with some HVAC contractors, have them take a look and quote you a price. Ask for suggestions on alternative systems from them as well, since they would be most familiar with what works in your area and what doesn't. |
#6
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Steam Heat Costs
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#7
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Steam Heat Costs
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#8
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Steam Heat Costs
insulte first... make sure the radiator air valves are working correctly, When the heat comes on and the rads are cool, the valves need to be open to let the air out of the rad and the steam in...then when the hot steam gets to the valve, it needs to close to keep the steam from escaping... also try putting small fans to blow air through your radiators effectivly increasing their size. Mark |
#9
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Steam Heat Costs
A blower door test apx 300 will show you how leaky your house is and
where to fix leaks, old houses can have 20x more air leaking than new houses, You are likely zone 6 and need alot of insulation, optimal for you area is R 50 - 60 attic. Has a pro checked the boiler out, you should call the manufacturer , they will tell you how efficient that boiler design was, then you can start to shop and compare. Old designs hold alot of water and have no automatic damper , more water means more gas waisted to heat to steam. Im northern Indiana and cut utilities in a 100 yr old house 75% by redoing everything, but insulation is a 1st I went to R 100 attic everyone said it was overdone but it already settled to maybe R 80, it is a 1800 sq ft house I paid 465 in 04 for gas for the whole year. Research insulation and boilers, Energy Star is a good place to start. |
#10
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Steam Heat Costs
On 16 Jan 2006 16:10:27 -0800, "Mark" wrote:
insulte first... make sure the radiator air valves are working correctly, When the heat comes on and the rads are cool, the valves need to be open to let the air out of the rad and the steam in...then when the hot steam gets to the valve, it needs to close to keep the steam from escaping... I don't have steam heat anymore, but what I never understood was whether painting the radiators made it better or worse. Some I've seen were already painted white, and I think that makes it worse. ?? But does painting it over with black make it better again? Or is it just another layer of paint to slow down heat transfer some more? If one were to paint over a white-painted radiator, which is better, black or metallic silver/aluminum color? also try putting small fans to blow air through your radiators effectivly increasing their size. Mark Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also. |
#11
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Steam Heat Costs
wrote in message My heat bill for this January was $500, up from $445 last year, and it was unseasonably warm this month. Here are my questions, for people with steam heat, and who live Talking to people here in New England, that seems reasonable for the house you describe. If you have steam heat from natural gas, do you find that it has been expensive to run? No more than other sources of heat. A Btu is a Btu no matter what fuel it comes from. Steam is a very efficient way of delivering energy. Rhere may be other issues, but the fact that it is steam is not the culprit. I keep the heat turned off in a few rooms in the house, I guess I could turn off a few more, does that make much difference in the cost? It will help some, but heat will still travel to those rooms. Has anyone ever replaced their steam heating system with something more modern (not just the furnace), and if so how much did it cost and was it worth it? Does the new system provide lower winter heat bills? I just took a 7,000 foot area off the steam boiler and replaced it with a high efficiency gas unit of 200,000 Btu. It is costing about $500 a month to heat that area right now. Cost of conversion was $7000 for the boiler installation, plus some wiring and a welded gas line that added $2000 more. If you did replace the steam heat, what would you recommend replacing it with? Hot water, but I'd rather keep the steam. I like steam. I once casually asked a neighbor in the hvac business how much it would cost to totally replace my heating system with a forced air system, putting in all the ducts, and putting in central air, and he said $15,000. Does this sound about right to you? Could easily cost that or more. I don't even know if that included the cost of taking out all the pipes and old boiler. Do you have any tips for getting the monthly bills down? Insulation. Does anyone have similarly high heat bills who are NOT running steam heat? One of my co-workers has an apartment and just heats hte first floor. Her bil was $400+ last month. The reason I ask this is because I notice from talking to different people that a lot of the people who have winter heat bills in the same price range as I do have steam heat. A lot of the people running forced air systems are only paying $100-$200 in the winter. What other changes have been made to the house? I know some people who had steam heat, bills similar to mine, and pretty much no insulation in their house. They spent a lot of money to insulate their house, with the end result that the heating bills were pretty much exactly the same. That is pure bull****. Insulations save money. Lots of money. I've insulated a few older houses and saw big drops in cost and big increases in comfort. All this leads me to believe that the steam heat itself is the main culprit causing my high heat bills. So I thought I would ask on a wider forum if this has been your experience also? It would make sense, since steam heat is a rather outdated way of heating your house. Makes no sense to me. While steam is not used much for residential these days, it is far from outdated and is very efficient. That is why steam is used in so many big buildings such as hospitals. I used to be able to heat the house to 72 degrees and I notice now to get roughly the same size bill, I'm down to 63 degrees and counting. Presumably, this is mainly due to the increasing cost of natural gas. Does anyone have any comments? Don't just look at the dollars, look at the number of therms or cubic feet of gas consumed. that is hte story. Insulate also. Don't ever think it won't help. YOu are just ****ing money away if you don't have insulation. |
#12
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Steam Heat Costs
When the thermostat calls for heat, it takes a lot of BTUs for the water to
change state and become steam. A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message . .. wrote in message My heat bill for this January was $500, up from $445 last year, and it was unseasonably warm this month. Here are my questions, for people with steam heat, and who live Talking to people here in New England, that seems reasonable for the house you describe. If you have steam heat from natural gas, do you find that it has been expensive to run? No more than other sources of heat. A Btu is a Btu no matter what fuel it comes from. Steam is a very efficient way of delivering energy. Rhere may be other issues, but the fact that it is steam is not the culprit. I keep the heat turned off in a few rooms in the house, I guess I could turn off a few more, does that make much difference in the cost? It will help some, but heat will still travel to those rooms. Has anyone ever replaced their steam heating system with something more modern (not just the furnace), and if so how much did it cost and was it worth it? Does the new system provide lower winter heat bills? I just took a 7,000 foot area off the steam boiler and replaced it with a high efficiency gas unit of 200,000 Btu. It is costing about $500 a month to heat that area right now. Cost of conversion was $7000 for the boiler installation, plus some wiring and a welded gas line that added $2000 more. If you did replace the steam heat, what would you recommend replacing it with? Hot water, but I'd rather keep the steam. I like steam. I once casually asked a neighbor in the hvac business how much it would cost to totally replace my heating system with a forced air system, putting in all the ducts, and putting in central air, and he said $15,000. Does this sound about right to you? Could easily cost that or more. I don't even know if that included the cost of taking out all the pipes and old boiler. Do you have any tips for getting the monthly bills down? Insulation. Does anyone have similarly high heat bills who are NOT running steam heat? One of my co-workers has an apartment and just heats hte first floor. Her bil was $400+ last month. The reason I ask this is because I notice from talking to different people that a lot of the people who have winter heat bills in the same price range as I do have steam heat. A lot of the people running forced air systems are only paying $100-$200 in the winter. What other changes have been made to the house? I know some people who had steam heat, bills similar to mine, and pretty much no insulation in their house. They spent a lot of money to insulate their house, with the end result that the heating bills were pretty much exactly the same. That is pure bull****. Insulations save money. Lots of money. I've insulated a few older houses and saw big drops in cost and big increases in comfort. All this leads me to believe that the steam heat itself is the main culprit causing my high heat bills. So I thought I would ask on a wider forum if this has been your experience also? It would make sense, since steam heat is a rather outdated way of heating your house. Makes no sense to me. While steam is not used much for residential these days, it is far from outdated and is very efficient. That is why steam is used in so many big buildings such as hospitals. I used to be able to heat the house to 72 degrees and I notice now to get roughly the same size bill, I'm down to 63 degrees and counting. Presumably, this is mainly due to the increasing cost of natural gas. Does anyone have any comments? Don't just look at the dollars, look at the number of therms or cubic feet of gas consumed. that is hte story. Insulate also. Don't ever think it won't help. YOu are just ****ing money away if you don't have insulation. |
#13
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Steam Heat Costs
Bob wrote:
When the thermostat calls for heat, it takes a lot of BTUs for the water to change state and become steam. A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. But that heat (BTUs) is not wasted, it is still in the home. "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message . .. wrote in message My heat bill for this January was $500, up from $445 last year, and it was unseasonably warm this month. Here are my questions, for people with steam heat, and who live Talking to people here in New England, that seems reasonable for the house you describe. If you have steam heat from natural gas, do you find that it has been expensive to run? No more than other sources of heat. A Btu is a Btu no matter what fuel it comes from. Steam is a very efficient way of delivering energy. Rhere may be other issues, but the fact that it is steam is not the culprit. I keep the heat turned off in a few rooms in the house, I guess I could turn off a few more, does that make much difference in the cost? It will help some, but heat will still travel to those rooms. Has anyone ever replaced their steam heating system with something more modern (not just the furnace), and if so how much did it cost and was it worth it? Does the new system provide lower winter heat bills? I just took a 7,000 foot area off the steam boiler and replaced it with a high efficiency gas unit of 200,000 Btu. It is costing about $500 a month to heat that area right now. Cost of conversion was $7000 for the boiler installation, plus some wiring and a welded gas line that added $2000 more. If you did replace the steam heat, what would you recommend replacing it with? Hot water, but I'd rather keep the steam. I like steam. I once casually asked a neighbor in the hvac business how much it would cost to totally replace my heating system with a forced air system, putting in all the ducts, and putting in central air, and he said $15,000. Does this sound about right to you? Could easily cost that or more. I don't even know if that included the cost of taking out all the pipes and old boiler. Do you have any tips for getting the monthly bills down? Insulation. Does anyone have similarly high heat bills who are NOT running steam heat? One of my co-workers has an apartment and just heats hte first floor. Her bil was $400+ last month. The reason I ask this is because I notice from talking to different people that a lot of the people who have winter heat bills in the same price range as I do have steam heat. A lot of the people running forced air systems are only paying $100-$200 in the winter. What other changes have been made to the house? I know some people who had steam heat, bills similar to mine, and pretty much no insulation in their house. They spent a lot of money to insulate their house, with the end result that the heating bills were pretty much exactly the same. That is pure bull****. Insulations save money. Lots of money. I've insulated a few older houses and saw big drops in cost and big increases in comfort. All this leads me to believe that the steam heat itself is the main culprit causing my high heat bills. So I thought I would ask on a wider forum if this has been your experience also? It would make sense, since steam heat is a rather outdated way of heating your house. Makes no sense to me. While steam is not used much for residential these days, it is far from outdated and is very efficient. That is why steam is used in so many big buildings such as hospitals. I used to be able to heat the house to 72 degrees and I notice now to get roughly the same size bill, I'm down to 63 degrees and counting. Presumably, this is mainly due to the increasing cost of natural gas. Does anyone have any comments? Don't just look at the dollars, look at the number of therms or cubic feet of gas consumed. that is hte story. Insulate also. Don't ever think it won't help. YOu are just ****ing money away if you don't have insulation. -- Joseph Meehan Dia duit |
#14
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Steam Heat Costs
Not true. If you set the thermostat at 70, and it overshoots every time, the
heat loss will be greater. The warmer it is on one side of a wall, the faster the heat will travel through that wall, because the molecules are bouncing around faster. "Joseph Meehan" wrote in message .. . Bob wrote: When the thermostat calls for heat, it takes a lot of BTUs for the water to change state and become steam. A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. But that heat (BTUs) is not wasted, it is still in the home. "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message . .. wrote in message My heat bill for this January was $500, up from $445 last year, and it was unseasonably warm this month. Here are my questions, for people with steam heat, and who live Talking to people here in New England, that seems reasonable for the house you describe. If you have steam heat from natural gas, do you find that it has been expensive to run? No more than other sources of heat. A Btu is a Btu no matter what fuel it comes from. Steam is a very efficient way of delivering energy. Rhere may be other issues, but the fact that it is steam is not the culprit. I keep the heat turned off in a few rooms in the house, I guess I could turn off a few more, does that make much difference in the cost? It will help some, but heat will still travel to those rooms. Has anyone ever replaced their steam heating system with something more modern (not just the furnace), and if so how much did it cost and was it worth it? Does the new system provide lower winter heat bills? I just took a 7,000 foot area off the steam boiler and replaced it with a high efficiency gas unit of 200,000 Btu. It is costing about $500 a month to heat that area right now. Cost of conversion was $7000 for the boiler installation, plus some wiring and a welded gas line that added $2000 more. If you did replace the steam heat, what would you recommend replacing it with? Hot water, but I'd rather keep the steam. I like steam. I once casually asked a neighbor in the hvac business how much it would cost to totally replace my heating system with a forced air system, putting in all the ducts, and putting in central air, and he said $15,000. Does this sound about right to you? Could easily cost that or more. I don't even know if that included the cost of taking out all the pipes and old boiler. Do you have any tips for getting the monthly bills down? Insulation. Does anyone have similarly high heat bills who are NOT running steam heat? One of my co-workers has an apartment and just heats hte first floor. Her bil was $400+ last month. The reason I ask this is because I notice from talking to different people that a lot of the people who have winter heat bills in the same price range as I do have steam heat. A lot of the people running forced air systems are only paying $100-$200 in the winter. What other changes have been made to the house? I know some people who had steam heat, bills similar to mine, and pretty much no insulation in their house. They spent a lot of money to insulate their house, with the end result that the heating bills were pretty much exactly the same. That is pure bull****. Insulations save money. Lots of money. I've insulated a few older houses and saw big drops in cost and big increases in comfort. All this leads me to believe that the steam heat itself is the main culprit causing my high heat bills. So I thought I would ask on a wider forum if this has been your experience also? It would make sense, since steam heat is a rather outdated way of heating your house. Makes no sense to me. While steam is not used much for residential these days, it is far from outdated and is very efficient. That is why steam is used in so many big buildings such as hospitals. I used to be able to heat the house to 72 degrees and I notice now to get roughly the same size bill, I'm down to 63 degrees and counting. Presumably, this is mainly due to the increasing cost of natural gas. Does anyone have any comments? Don't just look at the dollars, look at the number of therms or cubic feet of gas consumed. that is hte story. Insulate also. Don't ever think it won't help. YOu are just ****ing money away if you don't have insulation. -- Joseph Meehan Dia duit |
#15
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Steam Heat Costs
Bob wrote:
Not true. If you set the thermostat at 70, and it overshoots every time, the heat loss will be greater. The warmer it is on one side of a wall, the faster the heat will travel through that wall, because the molecules are bouncing around faster. All very true to some extent, but in real life the loss I was talking about is minimal. Note: I was not referring to a thermostat error. "molecules are bouncing around faster" :-) "Joseph Meehan" wrote in message .. . Bob wrote: When the thermostat calls for heat, it takes a lot of BTUs for the water to change state and become steam. A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. But that heat (BTUs) is not wasted, it is still in the home. .... -- Joseph Meehan Dia duit |
#16
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Steam Heat Costs
Bob wrote:
When the thermostat calls for heat, it takes a lot of BTUs for the water to change state and become steam. A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? Nick |
#17
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Steam Heat Costs
It's a scientific fact. Google "change of state".
wrote in message ... Bob wrote: When the thermostat calls for heat, it takes a lot of BTUs for the water to change state and become steam. A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? Nick |
#18
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Steam Heat Costs
No bob steam does not overshoot temp every time, I own a 16 unit with
steam boiler, I know it doesnt overshoot, or my bill would to, single zone is efficient, its all in the design, install, sizing, venting, and proper maintenance. |
#19
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Steam Heat Costs
You might be interested in the link below..they claim save heat 50%.
http://www.biotechresearch.com/catal...products_id=72 |
#20
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Steam Heat Costs
Bob wrote:
It's a scientific fact. Google "change of state". wrote in message ... Bob wrote: When the thermostat calls for heat, it takes a lot of BTUs for the water to change state and become steam. A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? Nick I think the issue is: A single zone steam heat system can be very inefficient because it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied. I don't think anyone is questioning the "it usually keeps on giving heat long after the thermostat is satisfied." but rather the "very inefficient because" part. -- Joseph Meehan Dia duit |
#21
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Steam Heat Costs
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:21:53 -0500, "Bob" wrote:
Not true. If you set the thermostat at 70, and it overshoots every time, the heat loss will be greater. The warmer it is on one side of a wall, the faster the heat will travel through that wall, because the molecules are bouncing around faster. But if your house is too warm because your furnace keeps overshooting, you generally don't set the heat to 70 in the first place. You set it to 68, and let it go ahead and overshoot. Always assuming that your thermostat isn't set up to anticipate the overshoot in the first place. --Goedjn |
#22
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Steam Heat Costs
Bob wrote:
... If you set the thermostat at 70, and it overshoots every time, the heat loss will be greater. So set it for 68. Nick |
#23
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Steam Heat Costs
It would be more accurate to say it can increase your heating bill by 100%.
"Boothbay" wrote in message ups.com... You might be interested in the link below..they claim save heat 50%. http://www.biotechresearch.com/catal...products_id=72 |
#24
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Steam Heat Costs
Do your own energy audit. Get a clamp on digital amp meter and measure
load drawn on each circuit , get a Kill-A-Watt meter apx 25$ and measure everything, unless small things are new and Energy Star rated idle draw can add 10-30 $ a month for things like TV radio etc, use switched strips and turn things off when not in use. My old panasonic radio and sony tv both cost me 7 $ a month to not use, I did not know it till I got a Kill A Watt. Research insulation, and new apliances. Old 15 yr refrigerators can cost 15-25 a month, I got a new sears 19,5 that costs 3.5 per month, then I recessed it into a foam enclosure reducing it to 2.5 a month. You must learn, Energy Star is a good place to start. Compare electric to Ng or Propane per Btu, Electricity for most of the US is still 50% more per Btu than Ng |
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