I heard water running in my attached garage. Turns out that a heating
pipe (hot water heat) runs through the uninsulated garage before it
runs upstairs into the house.

Unfortunately, the pipe is up against the outside wall (on top of
cement block), so I can't surround it by pipe insulation.

Is it okay to stuff fiberglass building insulation up against the
heating pipe? Seems wasteful to let any heat escape into a garage.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message

Unfortunately, the pipe is up against the outside wall (on top of
cement block), so I can't surround it by pipe insulation.

Is it okay to stuff fiberglass building insulation up against the
heating pipe? Seems wasteful to let any heat escape into a garage.

Be careful. If the block is colder than the garage, insulating it from the
little heat in the garage may allow it to freeze. See if you can move the
tubing away from the wall far enough to slip in a little insulation of some
sort. Even a 1/4" of foam will help.

Allow what to freeze? The block can't freeze-- and I don't expect that
the heating pipe would ever freeze-- if it's cold enough outside for
the garage to be below freezing, then the heat would be on in the house
(even if I turned the heat down to 50 degrees it would have to run
occasionally).

yes. but ed's freezing warning is valid because you may have that zone
off or be on vacation when old man winter sneaks up with his wind
chill. the pipe in a seldom used stairwell radiator system next door
froze when the owner reduced the water flow thru it to save money and
damaged a lot of woodwork. i was the owner. have owned it since 1978,
and i learn something new about home repair from the internet almost
every day. an old timer plumber taught me since then that the hot water
pipes freeze before the cold water pipes.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
Allow what to freeze? The block can't freeze-- and I don't expect that
the heating pipe would ever freeze-- if it's cold enough outside for
the garage to be below freezing, then the heat would be on in the house
(even if I turned the heat down to 50 degrees it would have to run
occasionally).


Sure, just ask any plumber in a cold climate. If you know so much, why did
you bother asking?

Insulating a pipe in an unconditioned space will not mean it can't freeze.
'R-value' means resistance to heat loss. Even if you were to insulate the
entire garage, it would eventually be the same temperature as the outside
unless you added some heat.
Consider yourself lucky that it was only the garage. I've seen people set
thermostats at 55 degrees and go on vacation and the entire house freeze up
(with the heater in perfect working order). Thermostats only sense the
temperature in a certain area. Once a small portion of pipe (not near the
thermostat) freezes, no water will flow through that entire zone.
The best thing for you to do is install an electric heat tape on that pipe.
You can always use this as an excuse to heat the entire garage.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
I heard water running in my attached garage. Turns out that a heating
pipe (hot water heat) runs through the uninsulated garage before it
runs upstairs into the house.

Unfortunately, the pipe is up against the outside wall (on top of
cement block), so I can't surround it by pipe insulation.

Is it okay to stuff fiberglass building insulation up against the
heating pipe? Seems wasteful to let any heat escape into a garage.

Shaun Eli wrote:
Allow what to freeze? The block can't freeze-- and I don't expect
that the heating pipe would ever freeze-- if it's cold enough outside
for the garage to be below freezing, then the heat would be on in the
house (even if I turned the heat down to 50 degrees it would have to
run occasionally).

Hot water does not run in the pipes all the time. It the thermostat is
not calling for heat, no hot water, no hot water, the pipe gets cold, no hot
water long enough the pipe freezes and you have a problem.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

What are the pipes made of?

On 16 Jan 2006 01:01:56 -0800, "buffalobill"
wrote:

yes. but ed's freezing warning is valid because you may have that zone
off or be on vacation when old man winter sneaks up with his wind
chill. the pipe in a seldom used stairwell radiator system next door
froze when the owner reduced the water flow thru it to save money and
damaged a lot of woodwork. i was the owner. have owned it since 1978,

So who reduced the water flow?

and i learn something new about home repair from the internet almost
every day. an old timer plumber taught me since then that the hot water
pipes freeze before the cold water pipes.

But this is why I posted. This seems strange, but I think I heard it
before. Any reason why the hot freezes first?

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

It's just a myth that hot water freezes faster than cold water. You can do
an experiment yourself. Take a container of cold water, and an equal
container of hot water. Put them in a freezer and keep checking. You'll see
that the hot water takes a lot longer to freeze. Sometimes almost twice as
long, depending on the temperatures. The only exception would be, is if you
start with extremely hot water, a good bit will evaporate first, and
therefore you'll have a smaller amount of hot water left to freeze, which
can equal out the freezing times.



"mm" wrote in message
...
On 16 Jan 2006 01:01:56 -0800, "buffalobill"
wrote:

yes. but ed's freezing warning is valid because you may have that zone
off or be on vacation when old man winter sneaks up with his wind
chill. the pipe in a seldom used stairwell radiator system next door
froze when the owner reduced the water flow thru it to save money and
damaged a lot of woodwork. i was the owner. have owned it since 1978,

So who reduced the water flow?

and i learn something new about home repair from the internet almost
every day. an old timer plumber taught me since then that the hot water
pipes freeze before the cold water pipes.

But this is why I posted. This seems strange, but I think I heard it
before. Any reason why the hot freezes first?

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:21:22 -0500, "Bob" wrote:

It's just a myth that hot water freezes faster than cold water. You can do

Now I remember. That was the context in which I heard it, myths.
Can't tell if Buffalobill believes it or not.


an experiment yourself. Take a container of cold water, and an equal
container of hot water. Put them in a freezer and keep checking. You'll see
that the hot water takes a lot longer to freeze. Sometimes almost twice as
long, depending on the temperatures. The only exception would be, is if you
start with extremely hot water, a good bit will evaporate first, and
therefore you'll have a smaller amount of hot water left to freeze, which
can equal out the freezing times.

It's hard to evaporate when it's in a pipe, but then there is the
magnetic effect of the planets beyond Pluto.

So, you're served a cup of hot coffee, and you cant' drink it now, but
yhou want it to be as hot as possible when you drink it. You also
want to add cream to coffee. Should you add the cream now, just
before you drink the coffee, or sometime in the middle?


"mm" wrote in message
.. .
On 16 Jan 2006 01:01:56 -0800, "buffalobill"
wrote:

yes. but ed's freezing warning is valid because you may have that zone
off or be on vacation when old man winter sneaks up with his wind
chill. the pipe in a seldom used stairwell radiator system next door
froze when the owner reduced the water flow thru it to save money and
damaged a lot of woodwork. i was the owner. have owned it since 1978,

So who reduced the water flow?

and i learn something new about home repair from the internet almost
every day. an old timer plumber taught me since then that the hot water
pipes freeze before the cold water pipes.

But this is why I posted. This seems strange, but I think I heard it
before. Any reason why the hot freezes first?


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Thanks. I don't have any cold water lines running through the garage,
only this one heating pipe (which could have been run a different way,
not through the garage-- I don't know why it was placed where it was).

It's copper, by the way.

I don't understand, though, why I'm being told NOT to insulate it-- if
the water in the pipe starts to get cold because the heat's off then
won't insulating it make it take LONGER to freeze? Won't the
insulation keep the cold away from the pipe? That's WHY I want to
insulate it-- to keep the pipe warmer. In other words, to prevent heat
loss from the pipe into the garage.

And when I said that the concrete block can't freeze, I didn't mean it
can't get cold, simply that there's nothing that will turn to ice. Of
course it can get cold-- presumably close to the same as the outside
temperature.

I don't need to heat the garage.

My question was whether there's a problem putting fiberglass insulation
up against a hot water heating pipe.

-Shaun

They probably ran the heat pipe through the garage because it was easier to
install.

I said, "insulating a pipe in an unconditioned space will not mean it can't
freeze." I do think that insulation gives people a false sense of security.
I've heard the argument many times that "my pipes can't freeze, because they
are insulated".

Insulation make things retain heat longer, but not forever. If you leave for
work, and the heat goes off, that pipe could freeze in a matter of hours,
while the house might still be well above freezing. Do yourself a favor and
put an electric heat tape on it. After that, you can wrap it with insulation
specially designed for use with a heat tape.



"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks. I don't have any cold water lines running through the garage,
only this one heating pipe (which could have been run a different way,
not through the garage-- I don't know why it was placed where it was).

It's copper, by the way.

I don't understand, though, why I'm being told NOT to insulate it-- if
the water in the pipe starts to get cold because the heat's off then
won't insulating it make it take LONGER to freeze? Won't the
insulation keep the cold away from the pipe? That's WHY I want to
insulate it-- to keep the pipe warmer. In other words, to prevent heat
loss from the pipe into the garage.

And when I said that the concrete block can't freeze, I didn't mean it
can't get cold, simply that there's nothing that will turn to ice. Of
course it can get cold-- presumably close to the same as the outside
temperature.

I don't need to heat the garage.

My question was whether there's a problem putting fiberglass insulation
up against a hot water heating pipe.

-Shaun

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message

And when I said that the concrete block can't freeze, I didn't mean it
can't get cold, simply that there's nothing that will turn to ice. Of
course it can get cold-- presumably close to the same as the outside
temperature.

Look up "conduction" in reference to heating. It can freeze your tubing.

Well, in the eleven years I've lived here with the pipe through the
garage and not insulated, it hasn't frozen, so I don't think it's
likely to start now (especially as it's been as cold as four degrees
outside). But this discovery will make me rethink turning the heat
down to 50 when I go on vacation!

I realize it was easier to run the pipe through the garage, but not
that much easier-- instead of right into the garage and then forward
they could have run it forward and then right, which would have reduced
the distance through the garage (one wall instead of two). I'm
obviously not going to move it, but I just wanted to make sure that
exposing fiberglass insulation to 180 degree piping wasn't a bad thing
to do.

Because the pipe is against something, and part is behind something,
slipping pipe insulation around it isn't practical.

So-- insulation against the pipe-- okay or not okay?

And thanks, everybody!

Insulation will not burn at 180 degrees.

"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, in the eleven years I've lived here with the pipe through the
garage and not insulated, it hasn't frozen, so I don't think it's
likely to start now (especially as it's been as cold as four degrees
outside). But this discovery will make me rethink turning the heat
down to 50 when I go on vacation!

I realize it was easier to run the pipe through the garage, but not
that much easier-- instead of right into the garage and then forward
they could have run it forward and then right, which would have reduced
the distance through the garage (one wall instead of two). I'm
obviously not going to move it, but I just wanted to make sure that
exposing fiberglass insulation to 180 degree piping wasn't a bad thing
to do.

Because the pipe is against something, and part is behind something,
slipping pipe insulation around it isn't practical.

So-- insulation against the pipe-- okay or not okay?

And thanks, everybody!

Fiberglass will be fine.cover with a outer layer and secusre tape so
particles dont shed!

what your seeing is the varying lowest temps thru the country/

example in alska it would be certain to freeze

In florida it would never freeze

posters were trying to save you from a bad day, coming home to a frozen
pipe flooded mess.

in your case this cant happen!


You can buy cheap foam wrap that goes right on pipe looks good better
insulator than fibergalss.

"So-- insulation against the pipe-- okay or not okay? "

You stated that the pipe is already against a concrete block exterior
wall. If you put the insulation against the pipe and cover up the pipe
and block, now you've insulated the pipe from the warmer air in the
garage and made the problem worse. The insulation will keep the cold
outside temps confined to the block and the pipe, so it will freeze
even faster. Fiberglass insulation against a hot water pipe is fine,
it's done all the time with pipes that run through exterior walls.

To be effective, you need to get the insulation between the pipe and
the block as a first objective. If you can get access to the pipe, I'd
see if you can move it enough to be able to get the tube type pipe
insulation around it. If not, can you cut it and move it out 3/8 of an
inch? Or else, reroute it, or use electric pipe heating tape as
someone suggested.

There is NO problem using fiberglas insulation in your situation. It
would be best to try to find a thin insulating board to slip between the
pipe and the wall, and then use fiberglas PIPE insulation of 1 1/2 inch
wall thickness. The black rubber stuff sold in hardware stores is not a
real good insulator compared to the fiberglas stuff.

I have steam pipes going through our garage (totally unheated) up to
a room above the garage, and I've used 1 1/2 inch fiberglas pipe
insulation for parts of the run that were not insulated when we bought
the house. It cuts down heat loss, making the system more efficient.

You should probably be more concerned with a hot water system, but
the answer to your question is, NO, there is NO problem with fiberglas
insulation against a hot water pipe. --Phil

Shaun Eli wrote:

Thanks. I don't have any cold water lines running through the garage,
only this one heating pipe (which could have been run a different way,
not through the garage-- I don't know why it was placed where it was).

It's copper, by the way.

I don't understand, though, why I'm being told NOT to insulate it-- if
the water in the pipe starts to get cold because the heat's off then
won't insulating it make it take LONGER to freeze? Won't the
insulation keep the cold away from the pipe? That's WHY I want to
insulate it-- to keep the pipe warmer. In other words, to prevent heat
loss from the pipe into the garage.

And when I said that the concrete block can't freeze, I didn't mean it
can't get cold, simply that there's nothing that will turn to ice. Of
course it can get cold-- presumably close to the same as the outside
temperature.

I don't need to heat the garage.

My question was whether there's a problem putting fiberglass insulation
up against a hot water heating pipe.

-Shaun


--
Phil Munro Dept of Electrical & Computer Engin
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio 44555

Thanks, folks.

Yes, I understand that insulation only between the pipe and the garage
will be putting the pipe closer to outside temps.

For some reason the concrete blocks don't go all the way to the
ceiling-- the pipe is, as best I remember it, resting on the blocks.
If I can shove insulation behind the pipe then I will be insulating it
from the outside. Most of the pipe is behind pegboard so I'll have to
cut through the pegboard to see how the pipe rests on that part of the
garage.

The part I can get to has some of the pipe up against something so I
can't use pipe insulation.