wrote:

... If either mains or battery fails, his detector wont sound.

It will sound, if "the mains fail" for less than 1 year :-)

... if youre going to the trouble of running mains to the detector

That's just a line cord cut off a dead appliance, in many cases.

Nick

Won't fly in Canada. Smokes have to be on their own
circuit.


wrote in message
...
wrote:

... If either mains or battery fails, his detector
wont sound.

It will sound, if "the mains fail" for less than 1
year :-)

... if youre going to the trouble of running mains
to the detector

That's just a line cord cut off a dead appliance, in
many cases.

Nick

SolarFlaire wrote:

Won't fly in Canada. Smokes have to be on their own circuit.

You may find that is untrue, if the AC merely keeps the battery charged.

Nick

Smokes have to be on their own circuit. Battery
operated ones do not pass code.

wrote in message
...
SolarFlaire wrote:

Won't fly in Canada. Smokes have to be on their own
circuit.

You may find that is untrue, if the AC merely keeps
the battery charged.

Nick

wrote:
wrote:

... If either mains or battery fails, his detector wont sound.

It will sound, if "the mains fail" for less than 1 year :-)

If mains is lost, and battery works, youre right it will sound.
If the battery goes down it wont. So you dont get the full reliability
benefit of a mains alarm with battery backup.


... if youre going to the trouble of running mains to the detector

That's just a line cord cut off a dead appliance, in many cases.

well, not here. One needs to use 1mm2 3 core cable, and route and wire
it in. Which is a good deal more than just grabbing a bit of flex. You
may be happy to string a bit of fle across the ceiling, but youre in a
minority on that.


NT

SolarFlaire wrote:

Won't fly in Canada. Smokes have to be on their own circuit.

Are you sure? :-)

http://www.safety-council.org/info/home/smalarm.htm

.... Smoke alarms can be electrically powered, battery powered,
or a combination of both.

http://www.ibc.ca/homeauto_homeinsure_smokealarm.asp

.... You should also test your alarm monthly to make sure it's working. Use
a candle, cigarette, or incense to introduce smoke into the alarm until it
sounds. If the alarm is battery-powered and doesn't sound, replace the
battery and try again. If it's electrically-operated and doesn't sound,
check the fuse and try again. In either case, if the alarm still isn't
working, replace the unit. A dead unit is worse than none at all, as
it can give you a false sense of security.

Saanich BC Smoke Alarm Bylaw No. 7126:

.... Smoke alarms installed pursuant to this bylaw may be battery powered
or connected to an electrical circuit... Where the owner installs an
individually battery powered smoke alarm, the owner shall install new
batteries in the alarm at least once every twelve months.

And finally, your Queen :-)

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/iyh-vsv/prod/detect_e.html

Smoke Detectors

(c) Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada,
represented by the Minister of Health, 2004

.... Change the batteries as often as recommended by the manufacturer.

Nick

On 11 Jan 2006 17:11:32 -0500, wrote:

SolarFlaire wrote:

Won't fly in Canada. Smokes have to be on their own circuit.

Are you sure? :-)

http://www.safety-council.org/info/home/smalarm.htm

... Smoke alarms can be electrically powered, battery powered,
or a combination of both.

http://www.ibc.ca/homeauto_homeinsure_smokealarm.asp

... You should also test your alarm monthly to make sure it's working. Use
a candle, cigarette, or incense to introduce smoke into the alarm until it
sounds. If the alarm is battery-powered and doesn't sound, replace the
battery and try again. If it's electrically-operated and doesn't sound,
check the fuse and try again. In either case, if the alarm still isn't
working, replace the unit. A dead unit is worse than none at all, as
it can give you a false sense of security.

Saanich BC Smoke Alarm Bylaw No. 7126:

... Smoke alarms installed pursuant to this bylaw may be battery powered
or connected to an electrical circuit... Where the owner installs an
individually battery powered smoke alarm, the owner shall install new
batteries in the alarm at least once every twelve months.

And finally, your Queen :-)

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/iyh-vsv/prod/detect_e.html

Smoke Detectors

(c) Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada,
represented by the Minister of Health, 2004

... Change the batteries as often as recommended by the manufacturer.

Nick

Nothing I see there refutes the statement that smoke alarms must be on
their own circuit... that is, they can't legally be plugged into a
random outlet...

No.I am not sure now....LOL After some research all I
can find is in the building code but the 1990
Electrical Code says it' OK to combine smoke alarms on
circuits with other devices.

I don't believe battery units are allowed in new
construction at all because nobdy ever checks them.
They must be wired in.


From our latest Building code:

A-3.2.4.21.(5) Smoke Alarm Installation.
The Electrical Code permits a smoke alarm to be
installed on most residential circuits that carry
lighting outlets and receptacles. It is the intent of
this Code that any other item on a circuit with a smoke
alarm should be unlikely to be overloaded and trip the
breaker with a resultant loss of power that is not
sufficiently annoying for the breaker to be restored to
the on position. It is considered that an interior
bathroom light or a kitchen light fulfills this intent,
but that circuits restricted to receptacles do not
fulfill this intent.



Not quite what I was thinking but thanx for the red
flag.


wrote in message
...
SolarFlaire wrote:

Won't fly in Canada. Smokes have to be on their own
circuit.

Are you sure? :-)

http://www.safety-council.org/info/home/smalarm.htm

... Smoke alarms can be electrically powered, battery
powered,
or a combination of both.

http://www.ibc.ca/homeauto_homeinsure_smokealarm.asp

... You should also test your alarm monthly to make
sure it's working. Use
a candle, cigarette, or incense to introduce smoke
into the alarm until it
sounds. If the alarm is battery-powered and doesn't
sound, replace the
battery and try again. If it's electrically-operated
and doesn't sound,
check the fuse and try again. In either case, if the
alarm still isn't
working, replace the unit. A dead unit is worse than
none at all, as
it can give you a false sense of security.

Saanich BC Smoke Alarm Bylaw No. 7126:

... Smoke alarms installed pursuant to this bylaw may
be battery powered
or connected to an electrical circuit... Where the
owner installs an
individually battery powered smoke alarm, the owner
shall install new
batteries in the alarm at least once every twelve
months.

And finally, your Queen :-)

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/iyh-vsv/prod/detect_e.html

Smoke Detectors

(c) Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada,
represented by the Minister of Health, 2004

... Change the batteries as often as recommended by
the manufacturer.

Nick

Have you ever disconnected a smoke detector from the
mains supply?

I have

Those *******s wail for 20 minutes after
disconnection. They are a pain in the butt. I do not
understand where they store all that energy after 15
years of usage.


wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
wrote:

... If either mains or battery fails, his detector
wont sound.

It will sound, if "the mains fail" for less than 1
year :-)

If mains is lost, and battery works, youre right it
will sound.
If the battery goes down it wont. So you dont get the
full reliability
benefit of a mains alarm with battery backup.


... if youre going to the trouble of running mains
to the detector

That's just a line cord cut off a dead appliance,
in many cases.

well, not here. One needs to use 1mm2 3 core cable,
and route and wire
it in. Which is a good deal more than just grabbing a
bit of flex. You
may be happy to string a bit of fle across the
ceiling, but youre in a
minority on that.


NT

SolarFlaire wrote:

I don't believe battery units are allowed in new construction
at all because nobdy ever checks them. They must be wired in.

Alarms that beep when the battery is low are self-checking, if
anyone's home and they beep long enough and the occupants don't
simply remove the battery to stop the noise, which I seem to have
done with my smoke detector a year ago. I just opened it up to
check the battery current and... whoa, no battery! :-)

The Canadian UL standard for smoke alarms (ULC S541?) seems to allow
a battery with AC backup. (I haven't seen the standard itself, just
a summary of it.)

From our latest Building code:

A-3.2.4.21.(5) Smoke Alarm Installation.
The Electrical Code permits a smoke alarm to be
installed on most residential circuits that carry
lighting outlets and receptacles. It is the intent of
this Code that any other item on a circuit with a smoke
alarm should be unlikely to be overloaded and trip the
breaker with a resultant loss of power that is not
sufficiently annoying for the breaker to be restored to
the on position. It is considered that an interior
bathroom light or a kitchen light fulfills this intent,
but that circuits restricted to receptacles do not
fulfill this intent.

This makes a smoke alarm power failure more apparent than if it were on
a dedicated circuit. Failure alarms are good. High availability can come
with long-life redundant components AND a way to tell if one has failed
so we can repair it before others are likely to fail, keeping the system
in working condition during the repair period.

We might compare numerical UNavailabilities in seconds per year for

1. AC only (600?)
2. Battery only (10?),
3. Battery with AC backup (alarm only works if battery works) (2?), and
4. Alarm works if either AC or battery works (1?).

The AC only option may not be as good as it seems based on grid failure
stats, since a house fire can cause a loss of house power.

Nick

Rich Komp replies:

Nick,
You are right. I have used non-rechargable batteries for years with
solar battery chargers. The current is controlled by the number of
photons going into the PV cells, not the internal resistance of the
batteries. I once deliberately grossly overcharged a regular alkaline
battery in a solar charger and got it to explode like a firecracker, but
it took almost an amp for a single AA cell, not the microamps we are
discussing. I will admit that after 5 years or so in a solar clock, some
of the batteries have leaked, but the battery contacts, weren't too hard
to clean (and I've never seen a fire from this).
I like breaking rules, especially when they are so FORCEFUL.
Rich

wrote:

I hope you are using rechargable batteries!

NO!

Regulart alkaline or others may dry out, overheat and start a
fire!

How much will they overheat if overchaged at 3Vx50uA = 150
microwatts? :-)

USE ONLY RECHARGABLE BATTERIES IN THIS APPLICATION!

NO!

Happy new year,

Nick

wrote in message
...
SolarFlaire wrote:

I don't believe battery units are allowed in new construction
at all because nobdy ever checks them. They must be wired in.

Alarms that beep when the battery is low are self-checking, if
anyone's home and they beep long enough and the occupants don't
simply remove the battery to stop the noise, which I seem to have
done with my smoke detector a year ago. I just opened it up to
check the battery current and... whoa, no battery! :-)


The schools around here have a fire safety program for the kids every
October. So I got in the habit over the years of buying nine new 9V
batteries each October and changing the batteries in the smoke detectors
(yes, *9* of them).

Just put it on your calender to do this during some season (say superbowl,
or halloween, or new-years) and just do it. The batteries I take out still
have plenty of life, so I use them for other things. But the smoke
detectors is one place I don't skimp.

daestrom

daestrom wrote:

... I got in the habit over the years of buying nine new 9V batteries each
October and changing the batteries in the smoke detectors (yes, *9* of them).

A bad habit? :-)

Just put it on your calender to do this during some season (say superbowl,
or halloween, or new-years) and just do it. The batteries I take out still
have plenty of life, so I use them for other things. But the smoke
detectors is one place I don't skimp.

You might charge-pump them and merely test yearly by pushing the button...

My clock radio has 3 AAA cells and uses 120 uA for the clock alone, 25 mA
with low radio volume, and 50 mA at high volume. At low-volume for 1 hour
per day, it needs an average (23hx120ua+1hx25mA)/24h = 1.16 mA = 60x370C,
which makes C = 0.052 uF... 0.1 can float the batteries at about 4.5 V
without overcharging, like this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:

0.1 uF @400 V*
|| 0.6V
-----------||---------------------|------------
|| | |
| | 4.5V
120 VAC /-/ --- to radio
^ 5.1V _
| |
10K | |
-----------www----------------------------------

This can go into the wall-wart that came with the radio, with
a wire inside the radio to connect its jack to the batteries.

A similar circuit might keep our church clocks running with power from
the seldom-lit exit signs below them. They have a single AA cell.

0.1 uF @400 V* --1.8V--
||
-----------||------------------|-|-|---------
|| | |
| | 1.5V
120 VAC /-/ --- to clock
^ 3.3V _
| |
10K | |
-----------www----------------------------------

Digikey's 1N5226BDITR-ND 3.3 V zeners cost $13.65/100,
Their 586-1361-1-ND switching diodes cost $3.38/100.

Nick

wrote in message
...
daestrom wrote:

... I got in the habit over the years of buying nine new 9V batteries each
October and changing the batteries in the smoke detectors (yes, *9* of
them).

A bad habit? :-)

Just put it on your calender to do this during some season (say superbowl,
or halloween, or new-years) and just do it. The batteries I take out
still
have plenty of life, so I use them for other things. But the smoke
detectors is one place I don't skimp.

You might charge-pump them and merely test yearly by pushing the button...


No, I test them monthly, and replace the battery yearly regardless of their
state of charge. The batteries get used in other things, but smoke
detectors and CO monitors are not the sort of applications I 'experiment'
with.

daestrom

daestrom wrote:

... I got in the habit over the years of buying nine new 9V batteries each
October and changing the batteries in the smoke detectors...

... I test them monthly, and replace the battery yearly regardless of their
state of charge.

If you and your family are worth $10 million and non-pumped batteries have
a 2 year MTTF and pumped batteries have a 10 year MTTF, with a 2 week MTTR
for both, (because it takes a month to discover them) and you have a fire
every 10 years, does your battery changing save money, on average?

Nick

wrote:
....
If you and your family are worth $10 million and non-pumped batteries have
a 2 year MTTF and pumped batteries have a 10 year MTTF, with a 2 week MTTR
for both, (because it takes a month to discover them) and you have a fire
every 10 years, does your battery changing save money, on average?

Nick, you've totally lost me on this one. First off, people aren't worth
$10 million. The average cost to an insurer for someones death is in
the $50,000 range and certainly children wouldn't be valued as much. Ask
any life insurance salesman what kind of policy they would sell for a
child. I doubt they would sell many over $10,000. Houses cost more than
people today. Replacing a home in Los Angeles could easily cost half a
million or more.

Next, I don't understand anything about this MTTF you're tossing around.
Replacing the batteries within one year is a safety measure, as is the
replacement of the alarms themselves every 10 years. You can run all the
theoretical analysis you want on projected failure rates but it's always
better to error on the side of caution. I'd rather spend the extra $10
a year on batteries if it means I don't die. It would be a cheap and
stupid thing to die because I wanted to save a couple of bucks.

Anthony

Anthony Matonak wrote:
wrote:
...
If you and your family are worth $10 million and non-pumped
batteries have a 2 year MTTF and pumped batteries have a 10 year
MTTF, with a 2 week MTTR for both, (because it takes a month to
discover them) and you have a fire every 10 years, does your battery
changing save money, on average?

Nick, you've totally lost me on this one.

It was a joke, joyce.

First off, people aren't
worth $10 million. The average cost to an insurer for someones death
is in the $50,000 range and certainly children wouldn't be valued as
much. Ask any life insurance salesman what kind of policy they would
sell for a child. I doubt they would sell many over $10,000. Houses
cost more than people today. Replacing a home in Los Angeles could
easily cost half a million or more.

Next, I don't understand anything about this MTTF you're tossing
around. Replacing the batteries within one year is a safety measure,
as is the replacement of the alarms themselves every 10 years. You
can run all the theoretical analysis you want on projected failure
rates but it's always better to error on the side of caution. I'd
rather spend the extra $10 a year on batteries if it means I don't
die. It would be a cheap and stupid thing to die because I wanted to
save a couple of bucks.
Anthony

Anthony Matonak wrote:

wrote:
...
If you and your family are worth $10 million and non-pumped batteries have
a 2 year MTTF and pumped batteries have a 10 year MTTF, with a 2 week MTTR
for both, (because it takes a month to discover them) and you have a fire
every 10 years, does your battery changing save money, on average?

The answer to that question is no, if the pumped batteries have a higher
MTTF, which seems reasonable to me, but you might imagine otherwise...

Nick, you've totally lost me on this one. First off, people aren't worth
$10 million. The average cost to an insurer for someones death is in
the $50,000 range and certainly children wouldn't be valued as much. Ask
any life insurance salesman what kind of policy they would sell for a
child. I doubt they would sell many over $10,000. Houses cost more than
people today. Replacing a home in Los Angeles could easily cost half a
million or more.

That's part of the picture. People can be worth a lot more than they are
typically insured for, if someone with deep pockets is paying. If daestrom
were a promising young brain surgeon, we might estimate he would earn
$10 million or more over the remainder of his lifetime... $50K/year over
50 years is $2.5 million.

Next, I don't understand anything about this MTTF you're tossing around.
Replacing the batteries within one year is a safety measure, as is the
replacement of the alarms themselves every 10 years. You can run all the
theoretical analysis you want on projected failure rates but it's always
better to error on the side of caution. I'd rather spend the extra $10
a year on batteries if it means I don't die. It would be a cheap and
stupid thing to die because I wanted to save a couple of bucks.

It's more complex, no? For instance, replacing batteries takes time, and you
might subtract that time from your lifetime, unless you love that activity,
and you might fall off a ladder when replacing a battery or drive into a tree
on the way to the battery store, and you might use the money you save by less
frequent replacements to armor-plate your SUV or buy safer tires or upgrade
the seatbelts, which might be better safety investments.

Nick

"Anthony Matonak" wrote in message
...
wrote:
...
If you and your family are worth $10 million and non-pumped batteries
have
a 2 year MTTF and pumped batteries have a 10 year MTTF, with a 2 week
MTTR
for both, (because it takes a month to discover them) and you have a fire
every 10 years, does your battery changing save money, on average?

Nick, you've totally lost me on this one. First off, people aren't worth
$10 million. The average cost to an insurer for someones death is in
the $50,000 range and certainly children wouldn't be valued as much. Ask
any life insurance salesman what kind of policy they would sell for a
child. I doubt they would sell many over $10,000.

Some insurance salespersons will sell you as large a policy as you want,
regardless of the logic involved :-( The only difference is the premium you
pay.

But an insured policy value is *not* the measure of human life. Especially
a close family member. Also, the *costs* of replacing a house go way beyond
the $ value.

Smoke detectors, portable fire extinguishers, CO monitors are all just
safety devices designed (usually) to help protect one from various hazards.

Replacing batteries in them on a regular basis is similar to fastening your
seatbelt or storing gasoline in approved containers or turning off the power
before rewiring a wall switch, or.... Sure you can 'get away' with skimping
on these sorts of things. There's a simple name for folks that willingly
chose to not follow well-founded safety precautions: 'statistic'.

daestrom

wrote:

If you and your family are worth $10 million and non-pumped batteries have
a 2 year MTTF and pumped batteries have a 10 year MTTF, with a 2 week MTTR
for both, (because it takes a month to discover them) and you have a fire
every 10 years, does your battery changing save money, on average?

Nick

Now we get to see the results of talking engineeering to people that
dont understand it.


NT

Life insurance - Placing a bet on your life, if you die you win.

Anthony Matonak wrote:
wrote:
...

If you and your family are worth $10 million and non-pumped batteries
have
a 2 year MTTF and pumped batteries have a 10 year MTTF, with a 2 week
MTTR
for both, (because it takes a month to discover them) and you have a fire
every 10 years, does your battery changing save money, on average?


Nick, you've totally lost me on this one. First off, people aren't worth
$10 million. The average cost to an insurer for someones death is in
the $50,000 range and certainly children wouldn't be valued as much. Ask
any life insurance salesman what kind of policy they would sell for a
child. I doubt they would sell many over $10,000. Houses cost more than
people today. Replacing a home in Los Angeles could easily cost half a
million or more.

Next, I don't understand anything about this MTTF you're tossing around.
Replacing the batteries within one year is a safety measure, as is the
replacement of the alarms themselves every 10 years. You can run all the
theoretical analysis you want on projected failure rates but it's always
better to error on the side of caution. I'd rather spend the extra $10
a year on batteries if it means I don't die. It would be a cheap and
stupid thing to die because I wanted to save a couple of bucks.

Anthony