My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses.
And, I get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the
attic. I have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation
contractors. One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4
joists is fine and that adding more won't make a big difference. Two
others wanted to add another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more
expensive and doesn't fill nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the
house was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl
windows. That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a
large aluminum frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going
to do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.

6" of insulation is apx R 21, You dont say where you live or your Zone.
Im Zone 5 to -20f, code is R 35 but optimal is apx R 50-60+. So unless
you live in say florida or zone 9 more will help. What is attic sq ft.
your areas low temps and Zone. Ice dams, may be air leaking up from he
house, not enough venting, and lack of insulation.

"Stubby" wrote in message
. ..
My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses. And, I
get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the attic. I
have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation contractors.
One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4 joists is fine and
that adding more won't make a big difference. Two others wanted to add
another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more expensive and doesn't fill
nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the house
was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl windows.
That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a large aluminum
frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going to
do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.

If the pink stuff is cut correctly, there's no reason it won't fill the
spaces nicely. I haven't priced it in years (but I'm about to, this
weekend), so I may be talking through my hat, but wouldn't it be cheaper to
use the pink stuff, and install it yourself?

Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.

Other things you can do is move around your house with an incense stick
looking for drafts. Seal up as many drafts and leaks as you can.
There are professional services that will install a temporary blower
into a doorway and will actually pull air from the house, creating a
slight vacuum. Then they will actually test how much negative pressure
is created and how much air volume is moving through the fan and from
that determine how "leaky" your house is. They usually go around with
a smoke pencil looking for leaks while this is happening too.

louie wrote:

Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.

Which is what, about 3% difference in heat loss?

Other things you can do is move around your house with an incense stick
looking for drafts. Seal up as many drafts and leaks as you can.
There are professional services that will install a temporary blower
into a doorway and will actually pull air from the house, creating a
slight vacuum. Then they will actually test how much negative pressure
is created and how much air volume is moving through the fan and from
that determine how "leaky" your house is. They usually go around with
a smoke pencil looking for leaks while this is happening too.



--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

The additional insulation will make a difference. Use sheets of
fiberglass or blown in biberglass and cover the joists completely. The
more the merrier. Also, fix any air leaks. Insulate the hot water
pipes and you should be able to turn down the setting on your hit water
heater. The walls should be the last thing you try to insulate.

CJT wrote:

louie wrote:

Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.


Which is what, about 3% difference in heat loss?

Oh, and that's the heat loss through the attic, which is only a
fraction of the whole-house heat loss.

As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical.


Other things you can do is move around your house with an incense stick
looking for drafts. Seal up as many drafts and leaks as you can.
There are professional services that will install a temporary blower
into a doorway and will actually pull air from the house, creating a
slight vacuum. Then they will actually test how much negative pressure
is created and how much air volume is moving through the fan and from
that determine how "leaky" your house is. They usually go around with
a smoke pencil looking for leaks while this is happening too.





--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"CJT" wrote in message
...
CJT wrote:

louie wrote:

Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.


Which is what, about 3% difference in heat loss?

Oh, and that's the heat loss through the attic, which is only a
fraction of the whole-house heat loss.

As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical.

Comfort is related to how quickly heat is being lost, and that's difficult
to quantify. But, what if this mysterious comfort goal lies somewhere in
that 3%? It would be a shame not to try.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"CJT" wrote in message
...

CJT wrote:


louie wrote:


Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.


Which is what, about 3% difference in heat loss?

Oh, and that's the heat loss through the attic, which is only a
fraction of the whole-house heat loss.

As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical.


Comfort is related to how quickly heat is being lost, and that's difficult
to quantify. But, what if this mysterious comfort goal lies somewhere in
that 3%? It would be a shame not to try.


It's only money ...

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Heat rises, insulating an attic is the cheapest way to save. 3% or
whatever loss you figure you save on utilities and increase resale
value.
Adding 6" or R 21, well next year it will have settled 15-20% and be R
18. I put in R 100 it settled to R 80, an R figure that is optimal not
what your local Minimum codes require. Through all I did I cut Ng by
60%, everything has a payback when it comes to insulation since
standards do not reflect 1.70 a therm Ng, they are outdated from the
50s.

Stubby wrote:
My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses.
And, I get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the
attic. I have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation
....
I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going

Well, you're losing heat through the attic, so you need insulation
there. You should go up there (with dust mask, body all covered, etc.)
and check for great big holes into the living space. Once you take care
of that, you can do your own cellulose for less than $200 per 1000 sq
ft. Just don't cover up your vents.

CJT wrote:
CJT wrote:

louie wrote:

Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.



Which is what, about 3% difference in heat loss?


Oh, and that's the heat loss through the attic, which is only a
fraction of the whole-house heat loss.

As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical.






But you are wrong. Since heat rises, especially in hot air heated houses,

the temp differential is much higher on the ceiling than on the wall.
There is absolutely a point of diminishing returns, but if you do a real
heat loss analysis on your house[it is not difficult, a pocket
calculator is helpful, but not required] you will find that half the
heat goes out the windows, and half the remaining goes out the roof.
SO if you take that[gross] generalization, and you burn 1000 gallons of
oil a season, figure 250 of it goes out the ceiling. At 2.50 a gallon
that is 625 A SEASON. Are you betting on a return to 90 cent a gallon
oil? I'm not. lets say with these made up numbers you have r20 in the
attic, the numbers tell you that it should save you 125 gallons a year
by going to r40.

"Stubby" wrote in message
. ..
My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses. And, I
get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the attic. I
have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation contractors.
One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4 joists is fine and
that adding more won't make a big difference. Two others wanted to add
another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more expensive and doesn't fill
nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the house
was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl windows.
That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a large aluminum
frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going to
do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.

2X the neighbors. Maybe you have a leak in a heating duct and you are
pumping warm air diectly into the attic. A little duct tape and some duct
insulation might give you a bigger bang for the buck. Go up on a cold day
while the heat is running and look for a duct leak. This would cause
massive inefficiency and ice damming, mimicing heat loss through insulation.

If you do not have forced air heat with ducts in the attic, disregard this
advice.

wrote:
The additional insulation will make a difference. Use sheets of
fiberglass or blown in biberglass and cover the joists completely. The
more the merrier. Also, fix any air leaks. Insulate the hot water
pipes and you should be able to turn down the setting on your hit water
heater. The walls should be the last thing you try to insulate.

Even the Energy Star house survey guy recommended against insulating the
water heater. That was a good idea back before we had the good
insulation we do now days. Around here (Chelmsford,MA) waterheaters
only last about 6 years because of the minerals. So I'd have to buy a
new waterheater blanket with every replacement. The heat loss won't pay
for it.

Nexus7 wrote:
Stubby wrote:

My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses.
And, I get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the
attic. I have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation

...

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going


Well, you're losing heat through the attic, so you need insulation
there. You should go up there (with dust mask, body all covered, etc.)
and check for great big holes into the living space. Once you take care
of that, you can do your own cellulose for less than $200 per 1000 sq
ft. Just don't cover up your vents.

Right. At least two of the contractors said they would install "proper
vents". These are the styrofoam vents that allow air to enter the
soffits and head up to the ridge vent. It should carry away heat coming
out of the ceiling.

I would do the job myself, but I'm too old, too fat and too stiff.

PipeDown wrote:
"Stubby" wrote in message
. ..

My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses. And, I
get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the attic. I
have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation contractors.
One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4 joists is fine and
that adding more won't make a big difference. Two others wanted to add
another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more expensive and doesn't fill
nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the house
was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl windows.
That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a large aluminum
frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going to
do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.


2X the neighbors. Maybe you have a leak in a heating duct and you are
pumping warm air diectly into the attic. A little duct tape and some duct
insulation might give you a bigger bang for the buck. Go up on a cold day
while the heat is running and look for a duct leak. This would cause
massive inefficiency and ice damming, mimicing heat loss through insulation.

If you do not have forced air heat with ducts in the attic, disregard this
advice.

Right. I have forced hot water in baseboard heaters around the edge of
the house.

However, there is an analagous situation to a leaking hot air duct. I
used to have hydronic heating with hot water circulating through a
copper pipe embedded in the concrete house slab. It was great heat but
(a) after 30 years the lime in the concrete ate pinholes through the
copper and (b) in 1970 they couldn't care less about energy and builders
didnot put styrofoam insulation under the slab. So, I was doing my
part of globe warming! Some people lose hot water from their heating
systems. It costs a lot and they don't know it's happening. But I'm
not losing heat that way anymore because I abandoned the hydronic system
and installed a baseboard loop.

Some obvious heat leakers. Windows. One a windy day,
curtains still should not move. For that matter, no place
anywhere in the building should feel air motion when outside
wind blows.

Other less obvious leakers. In the 1970s, contractors would
routinely say that insulation on outside wall between floors
was unnecessary. Easy to identify that myth. Floors on
inside rooms are cold. Same applies to the space above
foundation; where 1st floor joist meet on the outside wall.
Sill plate on foundation - did they forget to put a fibrous
insulator between foundation and first wood? Drafts at the
top of a foundation on windy days identifies bad construction
(that is quite legal). 2" insulation inside walls is classic
pre 1980 thinking. It should be at least 3.5" inside all
exterior walls - including places where interior walls join to
exterior walls. Today, most contractors still will insist
insulation in corners is not necessary. Furnace - where does
cold outside air come from to burn in the furnace? Does it
use interior air?

Heat ducts - in the 1970s, it was routine to put the hottest
part of the house - hot air duct - directly on outside wall.
Sometimes with only a 1/2" of insulation. Again, contractors
even in the late 1970s said this was good and acceptable.
Therefore the hottest part of the house is insulated to the
outside. Air ducts in attic spaces - must be beneath attic
insulation. And yet contractors in the year 2000 will still
claim tiny insulation around an attic heat duct is sufficient.
Attic access hole - is there insulation over the top of that
doorway or access hole? Foundation - any foundation wall
exposed inside the house that is within three feet below
outside grade must be insulated. Just a few ideas and the
many myth promoted by contractors then and today.

Stubby wrote:
My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses.
And, I get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the
attic. I have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation
contractors. One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4
joists is fine and that adding more won't make a big difference. Two
others wanted to add another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more
expensive and doesn't fill nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the
house was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl
windows. That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a
large aluminum frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going
to do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.

Doug Kanter wrote:
"Stubby" wrote in message
. ..

My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses. And, I
get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the attic. I
have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation contractors.
One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4 joists is fine and
that adding more won't make a big difference. Two others wanted to add
another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more expensive and doesn't fill
nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the house
was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl windows.
That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a large aluminum
frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going to
do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.


If the pink stuff is cut correctly, there's no reason it won't fill the
spaces nicely. I haven't priced it in years (but I'm about to, this
weekend), so I may be talking through my hat, but wouldn't it be cheaper to
use the pink stuff, and install it yourself?


I don't like the idea of laying more batts 90 degrees to the existing
ones. But that was suggested. Blowing in "pink stuff" (fluffy loose
fiberglass) is preferred.

CJT wrote:
CJT wrote:

louie wrote:

Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.



Which is what, about 3% difference in heat loss?


Oh, and that's the heat loss through the attic, which is only a
fraction of the whole-house heat loss.

As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical.



Other things you can do is move around your house with an incense stick
looking for drafts. Seal up as many drafts and leaks as you can.
There are professional services that will install a temporary blower
into a doorway and will actually pull air from the house, creating a
slight vacuum. Then they will actually test how much negative pressure
is created and how much air volume is moving through the fan and from
that determine how "leaky" your house is. They usually go around with
a smoke pencil looking for leaks while this is happening too.


I think it will be more than a 3% saving. Say the temp difference from
inside to outside is 50 degrees. The heat flow with R19 insulation is
50/19 = 2.6 in some arbitrary units like BTUs per fornight. With R34
the loss flow will be 50/34 = 1.8 in the same units. So in some amount
of time the heat lost will be (2.6-1.8)/2.6 = 0.31 or 31 per cent less.

Stubby wrote:
Right. At least two of the contractors said they would install "proper
vents". These are the styrofoam vents that allow air to enter the
I would do the job myself, but I'm too old, too fat and too stiff.

The "proper vents" are just plastic or styrofoam channels that staple
to the roof deck. The plastic ones should be more durable in that they
won't have to be handled as delicately during installation. Depending
upon the way the edges of your attic space adjacent to the soffit vents
are laid out, these vents may not be necessary, if the insulation will
stay away from the vents. Maybe you could supervise the job and have
some friends blow the cellulose. Between beer & pizza you'll spend a
lot less than $1600.

w_tom wrote:
Some obvious heat leakers. Windows. One a windy day,
curtains still should not move. For that matter, no place
anywhere in the building should feel air motion when outside
wind blows.
I believe I'm OK on those points. But I like the idea of snooping
around with an incense stick.

Other less obvious leakers. In the 1970s, contractors would
routinely say that insulation on outside wall between floors
was unnecessary. Easy to identify that myth. Floors on
inside rooms are cold.
This is a single-floor ranch house. But others here may have that
problem. Good idea to check it.

Same applies to the space above
foundation; where 1st floor joist meet on the outside wall.
Sill plate on foundation - did they forget to put a fibrous
insulator between foundation and first wood? Drafts at the
top of a foundation on windy days identifies bad construction
(that is quite legal).
I'm going to check that. My guess is the walls are nailed to the slab
and I'll bet there is no insulator. So the baseboard and carpet are the
only things cutting off that draft source. Good call!

2" insulation inside walls is classic
pre 1980 thinking. It should be at least 3.5" inside all
exterior walls - including places where interior walls join to
exterior walls. Today, most contractors still will insist
insulation in corners is not necessary. Furnace - where does
cold outside air come from to burn in the furnace? Does it
use interior air?
The furnace and water heater are in a utility room that draws air
through vents in the door which opens to the outside.


Heat ducts - in the 1970s, it was routine to put the hottest
part of the house - hot air duct - directly on outside wall.
Sometimes with only a 1/2" of insulation. Again, contractors
even in the late 1970s said this was good and acceptable.
Therefore the hottest part of the house is insulated to the
outside. Air ducts in attic spaces - must be beneath attic
insulation. And yet contractors in the year 2000 will still
claim tiny insulation around an attic heat duct is sufficient.
I have forced hot water. Other readers might have hot air.

Attic access hole - is there insulation over the top of that
doorway or access hole?
Yes. Both hatches are covered with pieces of insulation. Because the
garage is unheated, the hatch out there doesn't need to be.

Foundation - any foundation wall
exposed inside the house that is within three feet below
outside grade must be insulated.
Good idea. I'm in a slab house so I can't use it, but I did consider
digging under the slab and pumping in some sort of insulation, a piece
at a time.

Just a few ideas and the
many myth promoted by contractors then and today.
Much appreciated. Thank you.



Stubby wrote:

My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses.
And, I get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the
attic. I have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation
contractors. One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4
joists is fine and that adding more won't make a big difference. Two
others wanted to add another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more
expensive and doesn't fill nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the
house was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl
windows. That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a
large aluminum frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going
to do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.

Stubby wrote:
My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going
to do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.

it doesnt sound like your attic is the problem

you need some heat to go into the attic, it keeps the mold out
every attic should be vented all year round.

which leaves the doors, floors, walls, windows and kids running in and
out the house.
(fanning the door)

Stubby wrote:

CJT wrote:

CJT wrote:

louie wrote:

Adding 6" of cellulose to the attic will help tremendously, so long as
the soffit vents are kept open with some baffles. You'll add an
average R value of 3.5 per inch of the cellulose so you'll increase
your attic insulation from R-19 to R-40.




Which is what, about 3% difference in heat loss?



Oh, and that's the heat loss through the attic, which is only a
fraction of the whole-house heat loss.

As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical.



Other things you can do is move around your house with an incense stick
looking for drafts. Seal up as many drafts and leaks as you can.
There are professional services that will install a temporary blower
into a doorway and will actually pull air from the house, creating a
slight vacuum. Then they will actually test how much negative pressure
is created and how much air volume is moving through the fan and from
that determine how "leaky" your house is. They usually go around with
a smoke pencil looking for leaks while this is happening too.


I think it will be more than a 3% saving. Say the temp difference from
inside to outside is 50 degrees. The heat flow with R19 insulation is
50/19 = 2.6 in some arbitrary units like BTUs per fornight. With R34
the loss flow will be 50/34 = 1.8 in the same units. So in some amount
of time the heat lost will be (2.6-1.8)/2.6 = 0.31 or 31 per cent less.

That's what I get for trying to do the calculation in my head.

Thanks for the correction.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Stubby wrote:
....


I don't like the idea of laying more batts 90 degrees to the existing
ones. But that was suggested. Blowing in "pink stuff" (fluffy
loose fiberglass) is preferred.

Either of those is good. I would want to do a little more investigation
and see if you have an air leakage problem through the ceiling which may
well be. You need to block that if you have it.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Stubby wrote:
...
The furnace and water heater are in a utility room that draws air
through vents in the door which opens to the outside.

Therefore the utility room is outside of the house. Walls
and door separating utility room from rest of house must be
insulated. Pipes into and out of heater and hot water must be
insulated. Insulation around the water heater should be
supplemented since water heaters are normally insulated
assuming room temperature environments. Meanwhile, what is
the vintage of that furnace - a question about its efficiency?

Appreciate the concept. The house must be completely
encased in same insulation. Any hole in that insulation
negates most all adjacent insulation - which is why so many
homes have energy loss where interior walls join to outside
walls.

You cannot correct the slab. You cannot dig beneath and
maintain a stable house. Homes on slabs (especially with heat
in the slab) were a bad idea - from an energy perspective.
You could dig outside the foundation up to 3 feet down to
place insulation. Then cold does not go under wooden walls to
cool the floor.

Appreciate how badly Americans built homes even in the
1970s. Ironic, that a gallon of gas in 1969 (at 2005 prices)
was $1.80. Recently people complained when gas went from a
ridiculously low $0.85 to a just as low $1.20. Energy was so
cheap in 1970s that we only insulated walls in more expensive
buildings. We put a hottest part of house - hot air ducts -
almost directly in contact with outside cold - and called that
high quality construction practices. It suggests how much
wealthier Americans were back then - or how much intelligence
has finally been grudgingly forced upon an American public.

Why are you really concerned about the price of energy?
Because in the 1970s, a gallon of regular gas went from $1.80
to well over $5 per gallon - in 2005 dollars. Good reason to
expect history to repeat itself now that less energy is
discovered every year compared with what is consumed - meaning
we have a severe innovation problem. All factors that
contributed to an economically depressed 1970s - including a
lying president, inflation, excessive federal government
spending, an unjustified war, and increasing energy prices -
also characterized the 70s.

History demonstrates that people do not take energy
consumption seriously until gallon goes to maybe $7 per gallon
- 2005 dollars. IOW you would be simply getting ready earlier
when doing so costs so much less.

No way around an energy inefficient design - a slab. The
damage has been done. You must minimize the damage.

The good news - many options exist to improve energy
consumption.

Stubby wrote:
My heat bills are about twice what neighbors pay in similar houses. And,
I get ice dams. So it seems there is heat leaking up into the attic. I
have soffit vents and a ridge vent. So I called 3 insulation
contractors. One said the 6" that is in the attic between the 2x4
joists is fine and that adding more won't make a big difference. Two
others wanted to add another 6" of cellulose. Pink stuff is more
expensive and doesn't fill nooks and crannies as well.

My walls have 2" insulation which was standard back in 1970 when the
house was built. I replaced all the windows with double pane vinyl
windows. That was years ago and it did make a difference. I have a
large aluminum frame slider that I cover with film for insulation.

I'm hesitant to spend $1600 on additional insulation if it isn't going
to do anything. Can anyone suggest what is causing the heat loss?
Thanks.


I get ice dams also... Then again, my house is very old and I have no
insulation on the lower 12 feet of the roof. The upper part of the attic
is finished so that was insulated in the 1970's. Darn, I must be losing
a lot of heat...

w_tom wrote:
Stubby wrote:

...
The furnace and water heater are in a utility room that draws air
through vents in the door which opens to the outside.


Therefore the utility room is outside of the house. Walls
and door separating utility room from rest of house must be
insulated. Pipes into and out of heater and hot water must be
insulated. Insulation around the water heater should be
supplemented since water heaters are normally insulated
assuming room temperature environments. Meanwhile, what is
the vintage of that furnace - a question about its efficiency?

Appreciate the concept. The house must be completely
encased in same insulation. Any hole in that insulation
negates most all adjacent insulation - which is why so many
homes have energy loss where interior walls join to outside
walls.

That isn't true. Just think about windows. Of
course areas of poor insulation lower the total
insulation value, but they don't negate the rest
of the insulation. If that were true, then there
would be no point of putting insulation in the
walls of a house with windows, which have very
little insulation value. Wall insulation makes a
great difference, even with lousy single pain
windows.


Appreciate how badly Americans built homes even in the
1970s. Ironic, that a gallon of gas in 1969 (at 2005 prices)
was $1.80. Recently people complained when gas went from a
ridiculously low $0.85 to a just as low $1.20. Energy was so
cheap in 1970s that we only insulated walls in more expensive
buildings. We put a hottest part of house - hot air ducts -
almost directly in contact with outside cold - and called that
high quality construction practices. It suggests how much
wealthier Americans were back then - or how much intelligence
has finally been grudgingly forced upon an American public.

Your insulation comments may be true where you
live (CA?) but are certainly not true of where I
live. Many of the houses built here in the 70's,
including mine, were built as all electric houses
with double pane windows, 3.5" of insulation in
the walls and 16 inches in the attic. BTW 3.5"
of insulation in the walls of attached garage too.
Insulation standards went up in the 70's but
insulation of walls and ceilings was pretty
standard in house construction and improvement in
the 50's.


Why are you really concerned about the price of energy?
Because in the 1970s, a gallon of regular gas went from $1.80
to well over $5 per gallon - in 2005 dollars. Good reason to
expect history to repeat itself now that less energy is
discovered every year compared with what is consumed - meaning
we have a severe innovation problem. All factors that
contributed to an economically depressed 1970s - including a
lying president, inflation, excessive federal government
spending, an unjustified war, and increasing energy prices -
also characterized the 70s.

History demonstrates that people do not take energy
consumption seriously until gallon goes to maybe $7 per gallon
- 2005 dollars. IOW you would be simply getting ready earlier
when doing so costs so much less.

No way around an energy inefficient design - a slab. The
damage has been done. You must minimize the damage.

The good news - many options exist to improve energy
consumption.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, louie wrote:

Other things you can do is move around your house with an incense stick
looking for drafts. Seal up as many drafts and leaks as you can.
There are professional services that will install a temporary blower
into a doorway and will actually pull air from the house, creating a
slight vacuum. Then they will actually test how much negative pressure
is created and how much air volume is moving through the fan and from
that determine how "leaky" your house is. They usually go around with
a smoke pencil looking for leaks while this is happening too.

Get one of those infrared thermometers and point it around the attic if
you can move around reasonably in there. I have an Extech IR201 (one of
the cheaper ones) but any brand will do.

Mine showed that my efforts to close the gaps around my vent stack
penetration were unsuccessful by identifying a warm plume of air coming
out around the insulation.

---
The notion that the church, the press, and the universities should
serve the state is essentially a Communist notion ... In a free society
these institutions must be wholly free -- which is to say that their
function is to serve as checks upon the state.
-- Alan Barth

"P. Thompson" wrote in message
ocaldomain...
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, louie wrote:

Other things you can do is move around your house with an incense stick
looking for drafts. Seal up as many drafts and leaks as you can.
There are professional services that will install a temporary blower
into a doorway and will actually pull air from the house, creating a
slight vacuum. Then they will actually test how much negative pressure
is created and how much air volume is moving through the fan and from
that determine how "leaky" your house is. They usually go around with
a smoke pencil looking for leaks while this is happening too.

Get one of those infrared thermometers and point it around the attic if
you can move around reasonably in there. I have an Extech IR201 (one of
the cheaper ones) but any brand will do.

Mine showed that my efforts to close the gaps around my vent stack
penetration were unsuccessful by identifying a warm plume of air coming
out around the insulation.

Sounds like an interesting tool. Do you think it's sensitive enough to spot
gaps in outer wall insulation, when used outside the house, or is that heat
loss too diffuse for such an instrument? Short of ripping out pieces of
wall, I'm not sure how to determine what's in those walls.

Taking Doug's question one step farther, are readings
distorted by moving air or other environmental conditions?
How consistent and reliable is it's operation?

"P. Thompson" wrote:
Get one of those infrared thermometers and point it around the attic if
you can move around reasonably in there. I have an Extech IR201 (one
of the cheaper ones) but any brand will do.

Mine showed that my efforts to close the gaps around my vent stack
penetration were unsuccessful by identifying a warm plume of air coming
out around the insulation.

I downloaded the instructions for the device from the mfr's site, and
noticed that the surface temp of the thing you're trying to measure must be
over 30 or 32 F. Honestly, I'm thinking about picking up some infrared film
instead, and photographing the house from various angles.


"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Taking Doug's question one step farther, are readings
distorted by moving air or other environmental conditions?
How consistent and reliable is it's operation?

"P. Thompson" wrote:
Get one of those infrared thermometers and point it around the attic if
you can move around reasonably in there. I have an Extech IR201 (one
of the cheaper ones) but any brand will do.

Mine showed that my efforts to close the gaps around my vent stack
penetration were unsuccessful by identifying a warm plume of air coming
out around the insulation.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:

Get one of those infrared thermometers and point it around the attic if
you can move around reasonably in there. I have an Extech IR201 (one of
the cheaper ones) but any brand will do.

Mine showed that my efforts to close the gaps around my vent stack
penetration were unsuccessful by identifying a warm plume of air coming
out around the insulation.

Sounds like an interesting tool. Do you think it's sensitive enough to spot
gaps in outer wall insulation, when used outside the house, or is that heat
loss too diffuse for such an instrument? Short of ripping out pieces of
wall, I'm not sure how to determine what's in those walls.


It is pretty sensitive.

Part of my house is a stone foundation and part is brick. It surprised me
by showing that the (thicker) stone foundation insulated better than the
brick by being 49 degrees (inside the basement) in general rather than 44
for the brick. I guess it makes sense in retrospect.


---
The notion that the church, the press, and the universities should
serve the state is essentially a Communist notion ... In a free society
these institutions must be wholly free -- which is to say that their
function is to serve as checks upon the state.
-- Alan Barth

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Doug Kanter wrote:


I downloaded the instructions for the device from the mfr's site, and
noticed that the surface temp of the thing you're trying to measure must be
over 30 or 32 F. Honestly, I'm thinking about picking up some infrared film
instead, and photographing the house from various angles.


The operating temperature of the device sitting in your hand needs to be
above 32 degrees. But what you're measuring can be -4 to 518 degrees.

The 32 degrees is probably more for condensation or battery performance
reasons.

---
The notion that the church, the press, and the universities should
serve the state is essentially a Communist notion ... In a free society
these institutions must be wholly free -- which is to say that their
function is to serve as checks upon the state.
-- Alan Barth

Red brick may be absorbing more heat from sun; therefore
record a warmer temperature. Sunbathing adjacent to a sunny
brick wall on a cloud and windless winter day can be warmer
for same reasons.

What I am getting at is to question what it is measuring.
Three types of heat transfer exist - conduction, convention,
and radiated. Is this only measuring radiated heat, and does
measuring by this method provide an honest estimate of all
heat lost? For example, are there locations where hands feel
warmth but the meter declares a lower or same temperature?

"P. Thompson" wrote:
It is pretty sensitive.

Part of my house is a stone foundation and part is brick. It surprised me
by showing that the (thicker) stone foundation insulated better than the
brick by being 49 degrees (inside the basement) in general rather than 44
for the brick. I guess it makes sense in retrospect.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, w_tom wrote:

Red brick may be absorbing more heat from sun; therefore
record a warmer temperature. Sunbathing adjacent to a sunny
brick wall on a cloud and windless winter day can be warmer
for same reasons.

What I am getting at is to question what it is measuring.
Three types of heat transfer exist - conduction, convention,
and radiated. Is this only measuring radiated heat, and does
measuring by this method provide an honest estimate of all
heat lost? For example, are there locations where hands feel
warmth but the meter declares a lower or same temperature?

It does run into problems in the areas that the FAQ's on those devices
mention. Shiny aluminum, for instance.

Also, in the case of skin temperature or the temperature of furry animals
I've noticed it tend to read lower than one would expect perhaps since it
just reads the very surface of the object that it hits which can be quite
cool.

Not sure if I can answer your question but I wonder if the level of
accuracy you're asking for is necessary for pinpointing leak locations.

---
The notion that the church, the press, and the universities should
serve the state is essentially a Communist notion ... In a free society
these institutions must be wholly free -- which is to say that their
function is to serve as checks upon the state.
-- Alan Barth

My question should answer why so much 'leakage' was measured
at the pipe. Insulation stopped convention heat transfer.
But the pipe was doing radiated heat transfer. Therefore
little heat radiated by pipe appeared as much heat on the
tester. Instructions for the heat detection device should
discuss this if true. Above is a hypothesis that would also
explain why fury animals measure lower. Fur convents heat but
does not radiate much.

To better understand what I am asking, first bone up on a
concept called black surface radiation. Simpler concepts of
conduction, convention, and radiation were (in my time) taught
in public school science. How does the manufacturer discuss
this?

"P. Thompson" wrote:
It does run into problems in the areas that the FAQ's on those devices
mention. Shiny aluminum, for instance.

Also, in the case of skin temperature or the temperature of furry
animals I've noticed it tend to read lower than one would expect
perhaps since it just reads the very surface of the object that it
hits which can be quite cool.

Not sure if I can answer your question but I wonder if the level
of accuracy you're asking for is necessary for pinpointing leak
locations.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, w_tom wrote:

My question should answer why so much 'leakage' was measured
at the pipe. Insulation stopped convention heat transfer.
But the pipe was doing radiated heat transfer. Therefore
little heat radiated by pipe appeared as much heat on the
tester.

Your crystal ball is cracked. The pipe was mostly in the 30 degree range,
the attic was in the 20's. The area of insulation in plastic bags I had
put around the pipe was in the 50's, air was leaking around it. Not sure
how 'radiated heat' could make the pipe cooler than the area it supposedly
radiated to rather than equal in temperature. I don't have freon in my
vent stack.

How does the manufacturer discuss
this?
Go look if you're still interested.


---
The notion that the church, the press, and the universities should
serve the state is essentially a Communist notion ... In a free society
these institutions must be wholly free -- which is to say that their
function is to serve as checks upon the state.
-- Alan Barth