Can I span 17' 4" with 2x6's, 16 oc, ceiling w/drywall, insulation, no attic
storage? I wanna remove a wall that is within this span. It looks like 2 or
3 joists(?) already span this distance in line with the doorway.
____________
| |j |
| |o |
|_____|i__ _|
| |s |
| |t |
|_____|s__ _|

"John D" wrote in message
...
Can I span 17' 4" with 2x6's, 16 oc, ceiling w/drywall, insulation, no
attic
storage? I wanna remove a wall that is within this span. It looks like 2
or
3 joists(?) already span this distance in line with the doorway.
____________
| |j |
| |o |
|_____|i__ _|
| |s |
| |t |
|_____|s__ _|



--------------------------------------------------
yes as long as you nail (not screws) 2x4's from the ceiling joist to the
rafters creating a truss.

otherwise that would require 2x10 ceiling joists for a 17' 4" span 16" on
center.
--------------------------------------------------

"Carpenter Ant" wrote in message
...

"John D" wrote in message
...
Can I span 17' 4" with 2x6's, 16 oc, ceiling w/drywall, insulation, no
attic
storage? I wanna remove a wall that is within this span. It looks like 2
or
3 joists(?) already span this distance in line with the doorway.
____________
| |j |
| |o |
|_____|i__ _|
| |s |
| |t |
|_____|s__ _|



--------------------------------------------------
yes as long as you nail (not screws) 2x4's from the ceiling joist to the
rafters creating a truss.

otherwise that would require 2x10 ceiling joists for a 17' 4" span 16" on
center.
--------------------------------------------------


Why nail? Just curious.

EJ

Nails are much stronger with regards to shear strength. Screws resist
pulling out, but are much more brittle and easy to snap.

"EJ" wrote in message
news:Mt7Ka.12136$XG4.10601@rwcrnsc53...
"Carpenter Ant" wrote in message
...

"John D" wrote in message
...
Can I span 17' 4" with 2x6's, 16 oc, ceiling w/drywall, insulation, no
attic
storage? I wanna remove a wall that is within this span. It looks like
2
or
3 joists(?) already span this distance in line with the doorway.
____________
| |j |
| |o |
|_____|i__ _|
| |s |
| |t |
|_____|s__ _|



--------------------------------------------------
yes as long as you nail (not screws) 2x4's from the ceiling joist to the
rafters creating a truss.

otherwise that would require 2x10 ceiling joists for a 17' 4" span 16"
on
center.
--------------------------------------------------


Why nail? Just curious.

EJ

Creative answer!
But, I wonder if that's legal, especially since, if not done right,
the ceiling will fall.

Renata

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:50:28 -0400, "Carpenter Ant"
wrote:

"John D" wrote in message
...
Can I span 17' 4" with 2x6's, 16 oc, ceiling w/drywall, insulation, no
attic
--snip--

--------------------------------------------------
yes as long as you nail (not screws) 2x4's from the ceiling joist to the
rafters creating a truss.

otherwise that would require 2x10 ceiling joists for a 17' 4" span 16" on
center.
--------------------------------------------------

According to a span calculation program some grades of some species can do
it. I'm not sure if the 10# live 5# dead loads they used is enough for the
1+ ft of insulation. For no. 2 southern pine, 16"oc, L/240, the software
said 17' 8". Don't know if I can identify the wood that's up there.
John
"Renata" wrote in message
...
Creative answer!
But, I wonder if that's legal, especially since, if not done right,
the ceiling will fall.

Renata

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:50:28 -0400, "Carpenter Ant"
wrote:

"John D" wrote in message
...
Can I span 17' 4" with 2x6's, 16 oc, ceiling w/drywall, insulation, no
attic
--snip--

--------------------------------------------------
yes as long as you nail (not screws) 2x4's from the ceiling joist to the
rafters creating a truss.

otherwise that would require 2x10 ceiling joists for a 17' 4" span 16" on
center.
--------------------------------------------------

"'nuther Bob " wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:24:21 GMT, (Renata)
wrote:

Creative answer!
But, I wonder if that's legal, especially since, if not done right,
the ceiling will fall.

Renata

Crack maybe, not fall as long as it meets code. As long as the drywall
is properly attached, nothing can fall unless the beams drop.

But, FWIW, don't do it even if it meets code. You have to do all
the 2x "truss" work to make it stable enough to not crack. That
takes a lot of time. It also makes the "attic" space nearly unusable
and inaccessible, even for running HVAC and wiring. Spend a couple
of bucks more and at least put 2x8's in.

Also, ask the building inspector. If he doesn't like it, it doesn't
matter what anyone here thinks.

Bob

It's an existing house about 7 yrs old. Whats there is whats there. Ain't
gonna be any new ducts or storage. If I do it myself the inspector ain't
gonna see it, but I must be comfortable that it's structuraly sound.
John


On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:50:28 -0400, "Carpenter Ant"
wrote:

"John D" wrote in message
...
Can I span 17' 4" with 2x6's, 16 oc, ceiling w/drywall, insulation, no
attic
--snip--

--------------------------------------------------
yes as long as you nail (not screws) 2x4's from the ceiling joist to the
rafters creating a truss.

otherwise that would require 2x10 ceiling joists for a 17' 4" span 16"
on
center.
--------------------------------------------------

Ceiling Joist (Drywall - No future rooms & limited attic storage) :
20 PSF Live, 10PSF Dead
#2 & Btr L/240
2X6 2X8
2X10 2X12
12" o.c. 16" o.c. 12" o.c. 16" o.c.
12" o.c. 16" o.c. 12" o.c. 16" o.c.
SPF 13-8 12-5 18-0 16-4
22-11 20-10 -- --
Hem-Fir 14-5 13-1 19-0 17-3
24-3 21-11 29-4 25-5

from http://www.admoyer.com/builderslibra...spancharts.htm (one of
many span table sites)

Renata


On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 16:19:19 GMT, 'nuther Bob
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 14:50:28 GMT, (Renata)
wrote:
Regardless of "formally loadbearing" 2x6 lumber can't span 17'.


You may have missed the point: In his house it already does. The
question is whether or not the wall was part of the structure
when the 2x6 was approved. If the wall is a formal part of the
structure, then they probably span half that distance as a true
load bearing member. If the wall is not part of the structure,
then it is probably still working to keep his ceiling from cracking.

If the 2x6's are "ties", then they are stressed horizontally and
not set up to handle a top load, just the weight of the
drywall below. It probably is not a good idea, probably does not
meet code today, probably did when it was built.

To further address the idea of making a truss type system up there -
you should realize that trusses are carefully engineered to handle the
situation they're placed in. Throwing in some 2x4s, and making it
look like a truss doesn't necessarily gain you the strength of a true
truss. Your safest bet (and probably easiest) is to add some 2x8s
along side the 2x6s (nail 'em together).

The idea of the phony truss is to provide some stability to avoid
wiggle in the 2x6 that would allow the ceiling to crack. Obviously
the 2x6 would have to meet code otherwise. You are right, you can't
engineer a truss system with a couple of 2x4's and some nails.

You probably do more damage to the ceiling by nailing in the 2x4's
with it all finished. Bolts would be needed at the ceiling end to
do it without causing more problems. They can be nailed to the rafters
at the top.

But, who know from here. Someone who knows structure needs to look
at it on site.


Bob

I wasn't going to reply, but some clarification is in order.

Building code is a _minimum_ standard.
But, Building Code ISN'T the issue here.

Those tables aren't suggestions - if they "state" that a 2x6 CAN"T
span 17' it means that it will fail in some fashion if you try to span
17' with a 2x6. While the failure may not be a collapse, the ceiling
sure ain't gonna be looking good.

This seems to indicate that the wall in the middle is indeed load
bearing. (Yo - OP - do those joists overlap each other over that wall
or not)

On 6/25 @ 7:07pm, you (Bob) stated
"There's a good chance that wall is not "formally" load bearing and
that your house met the code way back when. Still, it is no doubt
stabilizing the rafters and keeping your ceiling from cracking under
stress. "

My point is that code is actually irrelevant here, as far as it goes.
If you don't shore up those 2x6 joists (by sistering 2x8s, for
example) and do remove the center wall, you're going to have problems.


On 6/28 you stated
"If the 2x6's are "ties", then they are stressed horizontally and
not set up to handle a top load, just the weight of the
drywall below. It probably is not a good idea, probably does not
meet code today, probably did when it was built. "

The span table I posted was for ceiling joists, no load in attic space
above.

Probably never met code (unless they were true "2" x "6" maybe),
probably never works, forget it.

Perhaps you should take a few structures and building classes before
making such definitive statements.

I apologize for not being the most diplomatic, but folks who haven't a
clue about what they're talking, and haven't a clue that they really
haven't a clue, and insistandinsist that they're right, well, at that
point, I tend to lose patience.

Renata





On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:54:54 GMT, 'nuther Bob
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:39:18 GMT, (Renata)
wrote:

Ceiling Joist (Drywall - No future rooms & limited attic storage) :
20 PSF Live, 10PSF Dead
#2 & Btr L/240


I don't disagree with you Renata that the current code would not
allow a 2x6. The question was about his *existing* structure which
apparently does use a 2x6.

I'll still stand by my advice that whether it met the code or not,
whether that wall was considered supporting or not, removing the
wall would not be the best idea.

Bob