Tile Experts:

We recently had to let a tile installer go half way through a job in
our new home construction (about 1000 sq. feet total) because or poor
workmanship. He didn't grout yet. We brought in a crew to do the other
half, and so far they appear to be doing a very good.

However, we discovered that the original installer did not use thinset
between backerboard and floor, like the new guys. Do we bite the bullet
and replace all of these tiles so that they are installed correctly? We
realize this is the correct way to do it, but this is costly to us (at
least $5K, plus my time over a whole weekend to remove the
tile/backerboard/screws).

What are the chances of us having issues (tile/grout pops and cracks)
with this tile down the road? We certainly wouldn't want to replace the
entire floor and incur even more costs, say because the tile might not
be available at that time.

Another option is to buy a bunch of the tile now and store in basement
just in case. This would be about $1500, an expensive insurance
maneuver for sure.

We are losing sleep over this decision.

wrote:
Tile Experts:

We recently had to let a tile installer go half way through a job in
our new home construction (about 1000 sq. feet total) because or poor
workmanship. He didn't grout yet. We brought in a crew to do the other
half, and so far they appear to be doing a very good.

However, we discovered that the original installer did not use thinset
between backerboard and floor, like the new guys. Do we bite the bullet
and replace all of these tiles so that they are installed correctly? We
realize this is the correct way to do it, but this is costly to us (at
least $5K, plus my time over a whole weekend to remove the
tile/backerboard/screws).

That's really dependent on a lot of factors. What amount of deflection
was the floor system designed for? How thick is the subfloor? How
thick and what type of backerboard was used? What type of fasteners
were used to secure the backerboard to the subfloor and how closely are
they spaced?

What are the chances of us having issues (tile/grout pops and cracks)
with this tile down the road? We certainly wouldn't want to replace the
entire floor and incur even more costs, say because the tile might not
be available at that time.

That's dependent on the answers to the questions above. If the floor
system has a 3/4" plywood subfloor, was designed for a maximum
deflection of 1/360, backerboard at least 1/2" thick and attached with
fasteners 6" on center or less, and the joints taped with fiberglass
mesh tape embedded in thinset, you will _probably_ be okay (but keep
reading). I'd still want to have a quantity of extra tile if some do
crack - a good idea even with a textbook perfect installation. If any
of the above criteria are sub par you will most likely have some
problems down the road.

Another option is to buy a bunch of the tile now and store in basement
just in case. This would be about $1500, an expensive insurance
maneuver for sure.

If you can show that the original installer didn't follow the
manufacturer's installation instructions, you may have a claim against
him. If you go ahead with the installation on the existing setup that
may constitute acceptance and approval of the situation. If you
haven't experienced any broken tile, you really haven't lost anything,
so it's more difficult to prove damages.

You need to talk to a lawyer. Get an estimate from the new tile guys
for the amount of the extra to remove the existing installation and
correct it. Go the backerboard manufacturer's web site and download
their installation data sheet and print it out. Determine where the
original installer varied from their instructions. Contact the builder
and find out from them, or their architect/engineer what deflection
limit was used in the design of the floor system.

You need to get your ducks in row before you make any snap decisions.

Good luck.

R

wrote:
Tile Experts:
However, we discovered that the original installer did not use thinset
between backerboard and floor, like the new guys.

What did the original installer use ?

So dude didn't put thinset under the backerboard eh?

I am sure he screwed the backerboard to the subfloor

thinset under backer @ floor is not std, it is subjective in my opinion
sometimes I don't need it.

I only use it to level a low spot.

I don't like contractors who pussily nit pick another mans work
it makes they dicks look small in doing this.

If all they have to talk about is the other contractors work
then they would be what you call dialectics

my 2 cents

damn some thinset under the backer!

JUST GIT-R-DONE!

christmas is coming, Im getting tired of people running in and out of
my house!

you might consider using a flex additive to the grout mix
(gives the grout a flexible property)

this way, if thinset shoulda been used here or there...

if the subfloor bends at a grout joint, then the flex grout will
not sustain damage.

He used approximately 6-10 screws per sq. foot, if I recall correctly.
I will try and get specifics of actual materials. As just layman
homeowner, I don't know these details off the top of my head.

He did use hardiboard, and from what I understand, if you don't use
thinset, you void the manufacturer's warranty.

wrote:
He used approximately 6-10 screws per sq. foot, if I recall correctly.
I will try and get specifics of actual materials. As just layman
homeowner, I don't know these details off the top of my head.

I doubt there were anywhere near that many fasteners. 6-10/SF works
out to ~90-150 per board. If all of the tile is already down,
covering the backerboard that the original guy did, you may want to do
some exploratory surgery and remove a section of a few square feet.

He did use hardiboard, and from what I understand, if you don't use
thinset, you void the manufacturer's warranty.

I don't use Hardie backerboard, but I do know that Durock and
Wonderboard's instructions call for thinset bonding the backerboard to
the subfloor.

R

wannabe wrote:
you might consider using a flex additive to the grout mix
(gives the grout a flexible property)

this way, if thinset shoulda been used here or there...

if the subfloor bends at a grout joint, then the flex grout will
not sustain damage.

That would take care of the grout. But the tile will be the problem.
Stiffness attracts load - it's an old saying in structural engineering
circles. The tile is stiffer, brittle and much more of a problem than
the grout if it fails.

R

wannabe wrote:
So dude didn't put thinset under the backerboard eh?

I am sure he screwed the backerboard to the subfloor

How do you know this? Many use roofing nails. But then again, the
nails or screws are meant to hold the sheet in place while the thinset
bonds to the subfloor.

thinset under backer @ floor is not std, it is subjective in my opinion
sometimes I don't need it.

It is not standard for whom? I do not know of a backerboard that
doesn't require it.

I only use it to level a low spot.

I don't like contractors who pussily nit pick another mans work
it makes they dicks look small in doing this.

If all they have to talk about is the other contractors work
then they would be what you call dialectics

I'm sure the manufacturers were concerned with the fun of debating
logical arguments when they specified the thinset bedding.

R

RicodJour wrote:

That would take care of the grout. But the tile will be the problem.
Stiffness attracts load - it's an old saying in structural engineering
circles.

that's a good way to put it.

The tile is stiffer, brittle and much more of a problem than
the grout if it fails.

I hear ya! That would be the winning point in a court of law

or...get the fella who did not install the thinset...as could be
expected
to drive a few pounds of screws in. A big shiny flathead screw.

R

I tiled about a 300SF area. A 350 Lb woman lived there.

They did call me with one cracked tile. It was right in the lowest part
of the house.

I told her, someone needs to crawl up under the house and put blocks
under the floor
joist.

One tile cracked? Im not concerned.

I'm sorry, I didn't mention that I removed a row of tiles (about 8)
myself because the original installer used the wrong size strip between
the kitchen tile and great room soon-to-be rug. That's why I recalled
that there must be 6/10 per sq. foot, because for each 20"x20" tile,
there was usually 2 rows of 3 screws, with some rows having an
additional 2 screws, maybe to coincide with the end of the board.

That's the one great thing about no thinset: easy to remove tile! I
chiseled underneath the backerboard and was able to lift the tile and
backerboard together and rip it out as a whole, leaving nails in floor.
I had to punch the square indentation of each screw head before I could
use the drill to remove from the floorboard, to get the glue out. Once
I figured it out, I could remove a 20"x20" tile in under 2 minutes.
Removing the screws took much much longer because of the head-cleaning
aspect.

wrote:

That's the one great thing about no thinset: easy to remove tile! I
chiseled underneath the backerboard and was able to lift the tile and
backerboard together and rip it out as a whole, leaving nails in floor.
I had to punch the square indentation of each screw head before I could
use the drill to remove from the floorboard, to get the glue out. Once
I figured it out, I could remove a 20"x20" tile in under 2 minutes.
Removing the screws took much much longer because of the head-cleaning
aspect.

ya, wouldn't normally remove tile, most folk install with lifetime in
mind, but you're right
darn sho make it easier to replace and they do break. The tileman
should not get all the rap for a poor designed home. fualty structure
goes past laying tile.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:
He used approximately 6-10 screws per sq. foot, if I recall correctly.
I will try and get specifics of actual materials. As just layman
homeowner, I don't know these details off the top of my head.

I doubt there were anywhere near that many fasteners. 6-10/SF works
out to ~90-150 per board. If all of the tile is already down,
covering the backerboard that the original guy did, you may want to do
some exploratory surgery and remove a section of a few square feet.

He did use hardiboard, and from what I understand, if you don't use
thinset, you void the manufacturer's warranty.

I don't use Hardie backerboard, but I do know that Durock and
Wonderboard's instructions call for thinset bonding the backerboard to
the subfloor.

Actually Wonderboard had different instructions about 20 years ago. When I
installed tiles in my bathroom they recommended that construction adhesive
be used to bond it to the subfloor. Later on they changed it to using
thinset. I used the construction adhesive method with thinset to bond the
tiles and they are still good after about 20 years.

EXT wrote:

Actually Wonderboard had different instructions about 20 years ago. When I
installed tiles in my bathroom they recommended that construction adhesive
be used to bond it to the subfloor. Later on they changed it to using
thinset. I used the construction adhesive method with thinset to bond the
tiles and they are still good after about 20 years.

I remember. Makes you wonder why they changed the specifications. I
can only imagine they had problems with some installations. I did two
bathrooms in one house at the same time and I used thinset under the
backerboard in one and not under the other. It was a test for my own
edification. They both held up well for ten or twelve years until the
house was sold and I couldn't go back to check. The one without the
thinset I used two layers of 5/8" plywood as insurance.

R

RicodJour wrote:
EXT wrote:

Actually Wonderboard had different instructions about 20 years ago. When I
installed tiles in my bathroom they recommended that construction adhesive
be used to bond it to the subfloor. Later on they changed it to using
thinset. I used the construction adhesive method with thinset to bond the
tiles and they are still good after about 20 years.

I remember. Makes you wonder why they changed the specifications. I
can only imagine they had problems with some installations. I did two
bathrooms in one house at the same time and I used thinset under the
backerboard in one and not under the other. It was a test for my own
edification. They both held up well for ten or twelve years until the
house was sold and I couldn't go back to check. The one without the
thinset I used two layers of 5/8" plywood as insurance.

R

im fixing to tile whole bath, im going to add flex additive to floor
adhesive and grout
with all these new additives it can compensate for thinner flooring.

wrote:
I'm sorry, I didn't mention that I removed a row of tiles (about 8)
myself because the original installer used the wrong size strip between
the kitchen tile and great room soon-to-be rug. That's why I recalled
that there must be 6/10 per sq. foot, because for each 20"x20" tile,
there was usually 2 rows of 3 screws, with some rows having an
additional 2 screws, maybe to coincide with the end of the board.

20" tile is some pretty big stuff. You need a stiffer floor with less
movement for bigger tile. I think you're overestimating the number of
screws. If we use an average of 8 screws per tile, each tile being
~2.75 SF, that's about 3 screws/SF in your installation.

This from the James Hardie web site:

3. Attach Hardibacker cement board to subfloor
· Apply a supporting bed of mortar or modified thinset to subfloor
using a 1/4"
square-notched trowel.
· Embed Hardibacker cement board firmly and evenly in the wet mortar.
· Use the fastener pattern as a guide. Fasten Hardibacker cement
board
with specified nails or screws (as listed in "Materials Required")
every
8" over the entire surface. Keep fasteners 3/8" from sheet edges
and 2" in from sheet corners.

The screw spacing your first guy used seems to conform to Hardie's
instructions for installations _with_ embedment in thinset or mortar.
So there's an obvious shortage of fasteners without the thinset. That
coupled with the large tile would keep me up at night also.

I can't tell you what to do, but I'll tell you what I'd do. I'd get
something in writing from Hardie's tech support voiding your warranty
due to the installation of their product. I'd then rip out the faulty
installation taking pictures/video of what exactly you are removing. I
lay a ruler down when I take the picture so someone can see the spacing
of the fasteners. I would get separate quotes in writing from the new
tile guy for demolition of the existing and installation of new
backerboard and tile.

I might consider getting a non-involved tile guy to give me quotes as
well. Tell him exactly what you are doing and why. I would offer to
pay the guy for the quotes. This would offset claims that your new
tile guy was inflating his prices.

From there you contact the original guy and give him an opportunity to
pay for the new installation only. Explain that you are trying to work
this out fairly, so, for a short period, you will not be looking for
money for the demolition. It will cost you some effort to do it
yourself, but you seem to have gotten a handle on how to do the removal
pretty quickly. If he doesn't take you up on the offer, you will then
have to go through either a contracting licensing board, consumer
affairs or whomever regulates contractors in your neck of the woods.
If that doesn't get you anywhere, it will end up in court. In my state
an incorporated company is required to be represented by a lawyer in
small claims court. That would work in your favor if it comes to that
and the small claims $ limit is within the general range of what you'd
be looking to recoup.

R