Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting
awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do
with the "hardness" of the wood!

From the link below...

"The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical
division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual
hardness of the wood."

"Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves
at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers
to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees
are examples of hardwood trees."

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods
include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species...
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf

Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty
of softwoods that are not conifers.
Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing
with it.
And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood
with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.
The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and
hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness.
-BAM


"Bill" wrote in message
...
Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting
awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do
with the "hardness" of the wood!

From the link below...

"The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical
division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual
hardness of the wood."

"Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their
leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using
flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and
fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees."

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of
softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species...
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf

"Em" wrote in message
om...
Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are
plenty of softwoods that are not conifers.
Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build
ANYthing with it.

Magnolia is a hardwood. I think you missed the point of the post.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting
awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do
with the "hardness" of the wood!

From the link below...

"The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical
division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual
hardness of the wood."

"Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their
leaves
at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using
flowers
to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees
are examples of hardwood trees."

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of
softwoods
include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species...
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf

Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are they
hard or soft wood?
And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood?
I'm not sure the Univ of Tenn is the defining authority here.

In article ,
says...

BAM please reread the OP.

And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood
with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.

WRONG. Balsa is classified as a hardwood and is very soft, easy to
cut and light.


The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and
hardwoods grow slower and denser.

WRONG. Balsa is classified as a hardwood. In 6 to 10 years it can
grow up to 90 feet tall and 45 inches in diameter.

http://www.mat.uc.pt/~pedro/ncientif...s/techbal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsa_wood

"MikeP" wrote in message

...Balsa is classified as a hardwood and is very soft, easy to
cut and light...


OK, now I'm REALLY learning something today! This is getting interesting...

"Em" wrote in message
om...
And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any
hardwood
with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.
The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense
and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness.
-BAM

Better study up on just what a hardwood and softwood are Em. There are
plenty of softwoods that are harder than hardwoods and vice versa. Take
Southern Yellow Pine for instance....softwood but is pretty darned hard.
Likewise, balsa wood is a hardwood....hmmm, that's pretty easy to cut
actually. The distinction has nothing to do with the wood's actual
hardness but as the OP quoted, with the way the tree grows (conifer,
deciduous, etc...).
Cheers,
cc

"Em" wrote in message
om...
And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any
hardwood
with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.
The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense
and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness.
-BAM

Better study up on just what a hardwood and softwood are Em. There are
plenty of softwoods that are harder than hardwoods and vice versa. Take
Southern Yellow Pine for instance....softwood but is pretty darned hard.
Likewise, balsa wood is a hardwood....hmmm, that's pretty easy to cut
actually. The distinction has nothing to do with the wood's actual
hardness but as the OP quoted, with the way the tree grows (conifer,
deciduous, etc...).
Cheers,
cc

Live oak, some call them "evergreens" although they don't resemble any
conifer, drop their leaves not at the end of the growing season, but, at the
beginning of spring. Leaves are soon replaced in less than a week. If one
is not paying attention, one might think they never lose their leaves. Just
an addendum to the defintion provided by the original post.
They're hardwood if anyone is perplexed.
--
Lil' Dave
Beware the rule quoters, the corp mindset, the Borg
Else you will be absorbed
"Bill" wrote in message
...
Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting
awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do
with the "hardness" of the wood!

From the link below...

"The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical
division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual
hardness of the wood."

"Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their
leaves
at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using
flowers
to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees
are examples of hardwood trees."

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of
softwoods
include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species...
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 04:25:14 GMT, "Em" wrote:

-snip-
And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood
with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.
-snip-

Go to your local borg and pick up a piece of poplar from the hardwood
section. Repeat with some yellow pine in the softwoods. You'll
find the yellow pine much harder.

Re-read the original post.

Jim

In misc.rural Jim Elbrecht wrote:

: Go to your local borg and pick up a piece of poplar from the hardwood
: section. Repeat with some yellow pine in the softwoods. You'll
: find the yellow pine much harder.

: Re-read the original post.

Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is? The softest hardwood?

In article , "Em" wrote:
Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty
of softwoods that are not conifers.

Name one.

Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing
with it.

Botanically speaking, magnolia is a hardwood.

And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood
with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.

Botanically speaking, balsa is a hardwood, and southern yellow pine is a
softwood.

Methinks you need to go back and read what the OP wrote. *Much* more
carefully this time.

The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and
hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness.

You are confusing "softwood" with "soft wood", and "hardwood" with "hard
wood". Not the same at all, as the OP's post makes abundantly clear.

-BAM


"Bill" wrote in message
...
Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting
awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do
with the "hardness" of the wood!

From the link below...

"The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical
division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual
hardness of the wood."

"Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their
leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using
flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and
fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees."

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of
softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species...
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf





--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Em" wrote:
Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing
with it.

Bzzt! Thanks for playing. Magnolia is harder than yellow poplar.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Chas Hurst" wrote:

Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are they
hard or soft wood?

Being angiosperms, they're hardwoods.

And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood?

Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods.

I'm not sure the Univ of Tenn is the defining authority here.

Perhaps not, but they agree completely with the source that *is* the defining
authority:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp.../fplgtr113.htm





--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , wrote:

Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is? The softest hardwood?

The softest hardwood has gotta be balsa. Dunno about the hardest softwood...
longleaf pine is certainly one of the hardest in North America, but I wouldn't
be surprised if there are some tropical gymnosperms that are much harder.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Em wrote:
Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty
of softwoods that are not conifers.
Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing
with it.
And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood
with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.
The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and
hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness.
-BAM

Balsa is a hardwood. Most softwoods are easier to cut tham Balsa.

Bunya Pine is a softwood. It is insanely hard.

As the OP said, it is a taxonomic division (although his source is
wrong, many Hardwoods are evergreen)

....Brock.

Jim wrote:
Live oak, some call them "evergreens" although they don't resemble any
conifer, drop their leaves not at the end of the growing season, but, at the
beginning of spring. Leaves are soon replaced in less than a week. If one
is not paying attention, one might think they never lose their leaves. Just
an addendum to the defintion provided by the original post.
They're hardwood if anyone is perplexed.

If you've ever had one growing in your yard, you'll never think they don't
lose their leaves.

--
"It used to just be CIA agents with ear-pieces who walked round
with preoccupied, faraway expressions, and consequently regarded
all the little people as irrelevant scum."
Lynne Truss

wrote in message

Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is?


How about Pacific Yew? I have a friend who has his barn poles made from
this wood. I was trying to drive nails into this stuff and every single nail
bent. This is the wood which got me interested in this topic to begin with.

Pacific Yew...
http://www.thenakedplank.com/Yew-pacific.html

Softwoods of North America...
(Yew - acrobat page121, document page 117)
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr102.pdf

"Bill" writes:

Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting
awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do
with the "hardness" of the wood!

From the link below...

"The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical
division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual
hardness of the wood."

"Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves
at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers
to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees
are examples of hardwood trees."

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods
include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species...
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf

Well, "when I use a word, it means precisely what I want it to mean".

At least one dictionary I found offers a 3rd definition:

[Macquarie]
Word: hardwood
Pron: ['hadwyd]
1 n. - Bot. any of the generally broadleaved, angiospermous trees
with sieve tubes for the conduction of nutrient solutions, most of
which have hard wood, as the eucalypts, but some of which have
soft wood, as the balsa.
2 -
the wood of such a tree.
3 -
(in popular use) any wood which is hard.

I thought this was a post about Lyle! Haven't seen hide nor hair of
him in a while. Wonder what he's up to...

R

In article ,
(Bill) says...

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods
include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

I have my doubts about this article. One of my favorite flowers is the
sugar pine blossom, which is a great big flower about 5" in diameter
that blossoms in the early spring. Incense cedar is blossoming now, and
the scent of cedar blossoms is filling the air. The dawn redwood is
deciduous in cool climates, while madrone (arbutus menziesi) is a broad
leaf, flowering evergreen with deciduous bark.

Anyway, conifers definitely have blossoms. In some cases they are even
showy. The cone is just a seed case that appears after the blossom
fades.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

In article . net,
(MikeP) says...

WRONG. Balsa is classified as a hardwood and is very soft, easy to
cut and light.

Poplar is a hardwood too.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

In article ,
(Bill) says...
wrote in message

Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is?


How about Pacific Yew? I have a friend who has his barn poles made from
this wood. I was trying to drive nails into this stuff and every single nail
bent. This is the wood which got me interested in this topic to begin with.

Pacific Yew...
http://www.thenakedplank.com/Yew-pacific.html

That would get my vote. The stuff is not only so hard it is difficult
to work, but it is also incredibly tough. Makes good bows. If you
shape the bow so there is sapwood on the outside and heartwood on the
inside, it will give you a natural compound bow.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "Chas Hurst"
wrote:

Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are
they
hard or soft wood?

Being angiosperms, they're hardwoods.

Say you, but the original article also included deciduous in the definition.
The above are not deciduous.

And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood?

Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods.

Again, the original article included evergreen in it's definition of
softwood, yet there are gymnosperms that are deciduous.

An ambiguous definition isn't one.

Larry Caldwell writes:

In article ,
(Bill) says...

"Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like
foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do
not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods
include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks."

I have my doubts about this article. One of my favorite flowers is the
sugar pine blossom, which is a great big flower about 5" in diameter
that blossoms in the early spring. Incense cedar is blossoming now, and
the scent of cedar blossoms is filling the air. The dawn redwood is
deciduous in cool climates, while madrone (arbutus menziesi) is a broad
leaf, flowering evergreen with deciduous bark.

Anyway, conifers definitely have blossoms. In some cases they are even
showy. The cone is just a seed case that appears after the blossom
fades.

In an angiosperm the seeds are enclosed.
In conifers the seeds are exposed.

http://www.msnucleus.org/membership/...2/lcp2_5a.html

I suspect there are borderline cases left over from when
one evolved from the other but I don't know that for a fact.

In article , "Chas Hurst" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "Chas Hurst"
wrote:

Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are
they
hard or soft wood?

Being angiosperms, they're hardwoods.

Say you, but the original article also included deciduous in the definition.
The above are not deciduous.

But, being angiosperms, they're hardwoods.

And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood?

Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods.

Again, the original article included evergreen in it's definition of
softwood, yet there are gymnosperms that are deciduous.

Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods, whether they're deciduous or not.

An ambiguous definition isn't one.

The terms "hardwood" and "softwood" are exactly synonymous with "angiosperm"
and "gymnosperm" respectively.

The overwhelming majority of gymnosperms are evergreen, and the overwhelming
majority of temperate-zone angiosperms are deciduous.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I. SOME FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON WOOD:

Q: A Softwood is a soft wood and a Hardwood is a hard wood. Right?
A: False. A softwood is the wood of a conifer (or a Ginkgo), a
hardwood is
the wood of a dicot tree. The hardest hardwood is some three times as
hard
as the hardest softwood, but the hardest softwood is some four times
as hard
as the softest hardwood. The softest woods in the world are hardwoods.

Q: A Conifer, that is the same thing as a Gymnosperm. Right?
A: Not quite: there are four groups of Gymnosperms, of which the
Conifers
(with some six hundred species) are the biggest and most important.
Ginkgo
(one species) is another such group. The remaining two groups don't
yield
anything that could be regarded as timber.

Q: A wood with "cedar" in the name will surely be a softwood. Right?
A: False: "cedar" is a word that does not mean anything except a wood
with a
certain type of fragrance (if that). Going only by frequency, "cedar"
in the
US most often will be "Western Redcedar" (Thuja plicata), followed at
some
distance by "Eastern Redcedar" (Juniperus virginiana) also marketed as
"Aromatic Cedar" [these are both softwoods]. A "cedar" from Central
America
will usually be a Cedrela species; from SE Asia usually a Toona
species
[these are both hardwoods]. Etc, etc[list goes on at considerable
length].

Q: Slow-grown wood is harder than fast-grown wood. Right?
A: By and large, this is true. It will depend on the wood concerned.
The
age-old canon is "A slow-grown softwood is harder than a fast-grown
softwood, while a fast-grown hardwood is harder than a slow-grown
hardwood."
Curiously, this is also true, up to a point. It will not be true in
the
tropics, but will in most of the US and Europe.
The point is that throughout most of the US and Europe the most
used
hardwoods will be ring-porous (such as Ash, Elm, Hickory, Oak). A
ring-porous tree will start every year by forming a ring of very big
pores
(easily visible to the naked eye) and only make mechanical tissue (for
support) later in the year. This means that in a short season the tree
will
not have time to make a full growth ring, but stops after making only
very
little of this mechanical tissue: slow-grown wood exists mostly of the
rings
of big pores. As pores are big air-filled spaces slow-grown
ring-porous
hardwood is quite soft. In a long season the tree will have the time
to make
a full growth ring with a great deal of mechanical tissue. As the
latter is
hard, a fast-grown ring-porous hardwood will be hard and strong.
For softwoods and diffuse-porous (non-ring-porous) hardwoods a
slow-grown wood will be harder (and more decorative) than a fast-grown
wood.

Q: "Cherry" is the wood from the Cherry tree. Right?
A: Not really. The tree that cherries grow on does yield a classic
wood,
called cherry, but this has always been fairly rare (these days cherry
trees
are planted in a stunted form for pickability of the fruit). There is
a US
timber tree ("Black Cherry", more or less closely related) that yields
a
look-alike wood almost as good, and certainly a lot more available.
This is
called cherry for convenience.

Q: "Brazilian Cherry "is a kind of cherry. Right?
A: False. The nearest wellknown relatives of "Brazilian Cherry"
(Hymenaea),
more properly known as "Red Locust" or "Jatoba", will be Purpleheart
(Peltogyne) and Bubinga (Guibourtia). The closest relatives in the US
will
be "Honey Locust" (Gleditsia) and the "Kentucky Coffetree"
(Gymnocladus). A
(much) more distant relative is "Black Locust" (Robinia).

Q: What wood to use for a cutting board?
A: Maple, or something similar (any lightcolored hardwood, with a high
density and a fine structure, e.g. beech, birch, etc). Not to be
recommended
are exotic hardwoods: their high degree of durability is because they
contain significant concentrations of exotic substances lethal to lots
of
organisms. These substances are best avoided in food. The issue is
especially relevant when cooking for guests or children.

Q: A Live Oak is an oak that has not been cut down yet. Right?
A: False. A Live Oak is another name for an evergreen oak (OK,
sometimes a
"subevergreen" oak). Evergreen oaks occur where the temperature
allows, in a
belt all round the world. Going by the wood, there are three
categories of
genuine Oak (Quercus), found all over the Northern Hemisphe White
Oaks,
Red Oaks and Live Oaks. The woods of these three are not closely
comparable
in any respect. Characters that are shared by all three woods are
prominent
rays and a dendritic arrangement of pores. All in all there are some
400
species of genuine Oak. In addition there are any number of woods
called
Oak, for whatever reason strikes the fancy of a wood trader.

Q: "Phillipine Mahogany" is mahogany from the Philippines. Right?
A: False. It may or may not be from the Philippines (probably not),
but it
won't be Mahogany, ever.

Q: "Honduras Mahogany" is mahogany from Honduras. Right?
A: Depends. It could be, but usually is not (from Honduras, that is).

Q: "African Mahogany" is mahogany from Africa. Right?
A: Just about. The wood of Khaya is from tropical Africa and is
usually
assumed to be a Mahogany.

Q: "Rhodesian Teak" is teak from Rhodesia. Right?
A: False. Baikiaea plurijuga is not teak, but a member of the Pea
family. It
grows in several countries, one of which used to be called Rhodesia.

Q: "Nigerian Teak" is teak from Nigeria. Right?
A: Right. Plantation grown. Not that anybody would want to use it.

Q: "Java Teak" is teak from Java. Right?
A: Right. Plantation-grown, from the days the Dutch were there. High
quality.

Q: Teak is a really hard wood. Right?
A: Depends. Teak (Tectona grandis, family Labiatae) varies from soft
as
butter and pale yellow to fairly hard and dark brown. Depends on
provenance.

Q: Steel is stronger than wood. Right?
A: Depends. A piece of steel of a certain size will almost always be
stronger as a piece of wood the same size. A steel rod of a particular
length and mass as compared to a similarly sized rod of wood ...

* * *

II. SOME USEFUL SITES:

FPL:
- intro-page of the Forest Products Laboratory:
http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/

- technical properties of wood
http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/techmenu.html
including two downloadable books on US-Woods

- the FPL "Wood Handbook. Wood as an engineering material"
(downloadable):
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp.../fplgtr113.htm
(Hardcopy at Lee Valley, Canadian version, i.e. paginated)

- common and scientific names of wood
(best database around, with a fairly low level of error):
http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/CommNames2000.html

- silvics of US trees
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/si...f_contents.htm

or
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/tmu/publications.htm

OTHER SOURCES:
- "The American Woods":
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/specialcolle...forestry/hough
(pictures only; a similar set is now in print as "the Woodbook")

- lots of pictures (fun), but short on accuracy and real information
full version (slow):
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...indextotal.htm
small version (faster):
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...pics/index.htm

- even more pictures, with even less information (lots of typo's)
http://www.rarewoodsandveneers.com/p...rarewood01.htm

Some more pictures (very little information; not free of typo's)
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/woodsampler.html

a preliminary page on purpleheart
(the wood of the genus Peltogyne, family Leguminosae):
http://www.organicsculpture.com/Purpleheart.html

a bird-eye's view of dangers:
http://www.city-net.com/albertfp/toxic.htm
http://www.ubeaut.com.au/badwood.htm

for a more extensive link-page see:
http://www.nehosoc.nl/paginalinks.htm

under reconstruction:
http://www.woodcollectors.org/

availability of wood (US)
http://www.woodfinder.com/

* * *

III. BOOKS:
Good entry-level books on wood are
"Wood for woodturners" by Mark Baker
(a bright book)
"Good Wood Handbook" by Albert Jackson & David Day
(cheapest and best, but out of print. Still available in the
(British)
original
which is called "Collins good wood guide")
"Woodworker's Guide to Wood" by Rick Peters ('passing grades')

An interesting book on a different way to obtain wood:
"Harvesting Urban Timber" by Sam Sherrill

An artsy book on American Wood with some really great pictures:
"The Woodbook" by Leistikow (ed.?) Not cheap.

Adult books on wood are
"Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley
"Identifying Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley

For those not shying away from a thick book:
"Holzatlas" by Rudi Wagenfuhr

In article ,
says...

Q: A Conifer, that is the same thing as a Gymnosperm. Right?
A: Not quite: there are four groups of Gymnosperms, of which the
Conifers
(with some six hundred species) are the biggest and most important.
Ginkgo
(one species) is another such group. The remaining two groups don't
yield
anything that could be regarded as timber.


Not exactly correct. One of those remaining groups is (or should be)
podocarp. (Almost) endemic to New Zealand with some members in Australia
and Fiji.

Podocarp includes the NZ Kauri tree which is one of the nicest softwoods
to work with, ever - straight grained, knot free, easily cut in any
direction ... in the 19th century most of Sydney and San Francisco
houses were built with Kauri framing. Many sailing ships had masts made
from young Kauri trees. Sadly, because of the rampant exploitation _new_
Kauri is as rare as hen's teeth these days.
A lot of Kauri is recycled from demolished houses these days. The wood
has a beautiful inner golden glow that gives the impression you can look
into it when polished. Generally quite soft.

Same family yields Rimu, which is still available - hard, ornery,
poisonous (wear respirator and protect eyes when working) with a grain
that can be as attractive and vivid as the very best of them (walnut,
tupip wood). Heart rimu is so hard you can't nail it. Many old houses in
New Zealand were built from rimu framing because borer does not like it.
Still in use for veneers for interior doors, cabinetmaking ...

Totara - a reddish pink wood with white sap. Also contains a natural
perservative, more or less immune to fungii and bacterial rot. Looks
very pretty and is nice to work with but 'blooms' under just about any
varnish so it's not used much in cabinet making and such. (I've heard
that it will not bloom when French Polish is used). Farmers used to use
it for fenceposts that would last up to 70 years in the ground without
any chemical treatment whatsoever. Works well, similar to Kauri.

Kahikatea - early settlers used to call it 'yellow pine' and it tends to
be buttery yellow in colour when freshly planed. Good to work with,
doesn't shatter like Rimu, has a lot of spring. Sadly does not hold up
to weather at all, even when treated. Makes nice timber for shelves etc
though. NZ butter used to be shipped in boxes made from Kahikatea
because it is flavour neutral. Hard to obtain these days, but not for
lack of trees.

there are a few more members of the family ...

-Peter


--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Em" wrote:

Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty
of softwoods that are not conifers.


Name one.


Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing
with it.


Botanically speaking, magnolia is a hardwood.

Not really. Hardwood and softwood are not
botanical classifications.


Botanically speaking, balsa is a hardwood, and southern yellow pine is a
softwood.
Same problem, has nothing to do with botanical
classifications.

Brock Ulfsen wrote:
Em wrote:

Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are
plenty of softwoods that are not conifers.
Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build
ANYthing with it.
And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any
hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting
any softwood.
The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less
dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and
softness.
-BAM


Balsa is a hardwood. Most softwoods are easier to cut tham Balsa.

Bunya Pine is a softwood. It is insanely hard.

As the OP said, it is a taxonomic division (although his source is
wrong, many Hardwoods are evergreen)

...Brock.

The confusion is caused by people mixing two
different classifications. There are botanical
(scientific) classifications as
well as commercial and other classifications. The
situation is similar to tree names where you need
to know the scientific name to be sure of what
another person is talking about because, trees
also have common names, commercial names, etc.

Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division
or classification of hardwoods and softwoods.
Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and
building trades terms based on the hardness of the
wood. To further complicate, sources try to
simplify the definition by equating hardwood and
softwoods to some botanical classification. But,
they don't fit any botanical classification very
well and that is the source of the confusion.

In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Em"
wrote:

Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty
of softwoods that are not conifers.


Name one.


Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing
with it.


Botanically speaking, magnolia is a hardwood.

Not really. Hardwood and softwood are not
botanical classifications.

Picky, picky, picky. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are lumber industry terms that
are exactly synonymous with the botanical terms "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm"
respectively. Happy now?


Botanically speaking, balsa is a hardwood, and southern yellow pine is a
softwood.
Same problem, has nothing to do with botanical
classifications.

Same answer. Were you born this pedantic, or did you train?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division
or classification of hardwoods and softwoods.

Not correct.

Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and
building trades terms based on the hardness of the
wood.

That is simply false. Longleaf pine, for example, is considerably harder than
yellow poplar; however, the former is classified as a softwood by the lumber
industry, and the latter as a hardwood.

The lumber industry distinction between hardwood and softwood is based
*loosely* on the fact that most hardwood trees are harder than most softwood
trees -- but, as noted above, that is not always the case.


To further complicate, sources try to
simplify the definition by equating hardwood and
softwoods to some botanical classification. But,
they don't fit any botanical classification very
well and that is the source of the confusion.

The confusion is entirely on your part, sir. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are
exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. If you
disagree, it's up to you to provide counterexamples.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Anybody heard of IronWood trees? They grow along streams and rivers
here in N.C. Hard or soft, botanically? I know their density and weight
make them properly named. Hugh

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division
or classification of hardwoods and softwoods.

Not correct.

Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and
building trades terms based on the hardness of the
wood.

That is simply false. Longleaf pine, for example, is considerably harder than
yellow poplar; however, the former is classified as a softwood by the lumber
industry, and the latter as a hardwood.

The lumber industry distinction between hardwood and softwood is based
*loosely* on the fact that most hardwood trees are harder than most softwood
trees -- but, as noted above, that is not always the case.


To further complicate, sources try to
simplify the definition by equating hardwood and
softwoods to some botanical classification. But,
they don't fit any botanical classification very
well and that is the source of the confusion.

The confusion is entirely on your part, sir. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are
exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. If you
disagree, it's up to you to provide counterexamples.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Exactly. That is the way I was taught back in a HS science class.

Harry K

Houston wrote:
Anybody heard of IronWood trees? They grow along streams and rivers
here in N.C. Hard or soft, botanically? I know their density and weight
make them properly named. Hugh

I 'think' I have seen one but not sure. My understanding is that they
are deciduous and thus by definition are softwood.

Harry K

Houston wrote:
Anybody heard of IronWood trees? They grow along streams and rivers
here in N.C. Hard or soft, botanically? I know their density and weight
make them properly named. Hugh

OOPS! By definition they are HARDWOOD.

Harry K

All you need to know is that hardwoods are better to burn in your
woodstove. I don't burn softwoods at all, just let them rot when they
fall...




James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
"Em" wrote in message
om...

And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any
hardwood

with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood.
The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense
and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness.
-BAM


Better study up on just what a hardwood and softwood are Em. There are
plenty of softwoods that are harder than hardwoods and vice versa. Take
Southern Yellow Pine for instance....softwood but is pretty darned hard.
Likewise, balsa wood is a hardwood....hmmm, that's pretty easy to cut
actually. The distinction has nothing to do with the wood's actual
hardness but as the OP quoted, with the way the tree grows (conifer,
deciduous, etc...).
Cheers,
cc

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:


Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division
or classification of hardwoods and softwoods.


Not correct.

Take some botany classes or just take one--taxonomy.


Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and
building trades terms based on the hardness of the
wood.


That is simply false. Longleaf pine, for example, is considerably harder than
yellow poplar; however, the former is classified as a softwood by the lumber
industry, and the latter as a hardwood.

Well at least you agree it is an industry
classification. If it isn't generally based on
the hardness of the wood, I wonder why the two
categories are "softwood" and "hardwood."

The lumber industry distinction between hardwood and softwood is based
*loosely* on the fact that most hardwood trees are harder than most softwood
trees -- but, as noted above, that is not always the case.

You are right, it is loose, so loose than the
wheel fell off.




To further complicate, sources try to
simplify the definition by equating hardwood and
softwoods to some botanical classification. But,
they don't fit any botanical classification very
well and that is the source of the confusion.


The confusion is entirely on your part, sir. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are
exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. If you
disagree, it's up to you to provide counterexamples.

I'm confused? I know exactly what the terms
angiosperm and gymnosperm mean. And if I didn't,
I could go to any botany book and find the
definition.

If the industry equates angiosperm and gymnosperm
to hardwood and softwood, why don't they just say
angiosperm and gymnosperm and be correct? You
already gave examples of gymnosperms that are
harder than angiosperms.

My point is that defining hardwood/softwood that
way is useless, senseless, irresponsible, and
confusing. The fact that this thread is so long
confirms that.

Houston wrote:
Anybody heard of IronWood trees? They grow along streams and rivers
here in N.C. Hard or soft, botanically? I know their density and weight
make them properly named. Hugh


Uhh, density equates pretty much to hardness. And
hard or soft is not a botanical classification.

Harry K wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:


Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division
or classification of hardwoods and softwoods.

Not correct.


Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and
building trades terms based on the hardness of the
wood.

That is simply false. Longleaf pine, for example, is considerably harder than
yellow poplar; however, the former is classified as a softwood by the lumber
industry, and the latter as a hardwood.

The lumber industry distinction between hardwood and softwood is based
*loosely* on the fact that most hardwood trees are harder than most softwood
trees -- but, as noted above, that is not always the case.



To further complicate, sources try to
simplify the definition by equating hardwood and
softwoods to some botanical classification. But,
they don't fit any botanical classification very
well and that is the source of the confusion.

The confusion is entirely on your part, sir. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are
exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. If you
disagree, it's up to you to provide counterexamples.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


Exactly. That is the way I was taught back in a HS science class.

Harry K


Then you had a lousy science teacher! No decent
biologist or botanist would say that, and the
physics and chemistry teachers probably wouldn't
know or care.