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#1
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting
awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do with the "hardness" of the wood! From the link below... "The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual hardness of the wood." "Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees." "Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks." Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species... http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf |
#2
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty
of softwoods that are not conifers. Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. -BAM "Bill" wrote in message ... Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do with the "hardness" of the wood! From the link below... "The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual hardness of the wood." "Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees." "Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks." Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species... http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf |
#3
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"Em" wrote in message om... Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty of softwoods that are not conifers. Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. Magnolia is a hardwood. I think you missed the point of the post. |
#5
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"MikeP" wrote in message
...Balsa is classified as a hardwood and is very soft, easy to cut and light... OK, now I'm REALLY learning something today! This is getting interesting... |
#6
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
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#7
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"Em" wrote in message om... And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. -BAM Better study up on just what a hardwood and softwood are Em. There are plenty of softwoods that are harder than hardwoods and vice versa. Take Southern Yellow Pine for instance....softwood but is pretty darned hard. Likewise, balsa wood is a hardwood....hmmm, that's pretty easy to cut actually. The distinction has nothing to do with the wood's actual hardness but as the OP quoted, with the way the tree grows (conifer, deciduous, etc...). Cheers, cc |
#8
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"Em" wrote in message om... And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. -BAM Better study up on just what a hardwood and softwood are Em. There are plenty of softwoods that are harder than hardwoods and vice versa. Take Southern Yellow Pine for instance....softwood but is pretty darned hard. Likewise, balsa wood is a hardwood....hmmm, that's pretty easy to cut actually. The distinction has nothing to do with the wood's actual hardness but as the OP quoted, with the way the tree grows (conifer, deciduous, etc...). Cheers, cc |
#9
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
All you need to know is that hardwoods are better to burn in your
woodstove. I don't burn softwoods at all, just let them rot when they fall... James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote: "Em" wrote in message om... And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. -BAM Better study up on just what a hardwood and softwood are Em. There are plenty of softwoods that are harder than hardwoods and vice versa. Take Southern Yellow Pine for instance....softwood but is pretty darned hard. Likewise, balsa wood is a hardwood....hmmm, that's pretty easy to cut actually. The distinction has nothing to do with the wood's actual hardness but as the OP quoted, with the way the tree grows (conifer, deciduous, etc...). Cheers, cc |
#10
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
If your hardwood is not hard, I suggest you get some viagra !!!
Take a couple pills and your woody will get real hard... On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 04:44:49 GMT, Rob wrote: All you need to know is that hardwoods are better to burn in your woodstove. I don't burn softwoods at all, just let them rot when they fall... James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote: "Em" wrote in message om... And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. -BAM Better study up on just what a hardwood and softwood are Em. There are plenty of softwoods that are harder than hardwoods and vice versa. Take Southern Yellow Pine for instance....softwood but is pretty darned hard. Likewise, balsa wood is a hardwood....hmmm, that's pretty easy to cut actually. The distinction has nothing to do with the wood's actual hardness but as the OP quoted, with the way the tree grows (conifer, deciduous, etc...). Cheers, cc |
#11
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"Rob" wrote in message
All you need to know is that hardwoods are better to burn in your woodstove. I don't burn softwoods at all, just let them rot when they fall... Well now we are getting to the crux of the matter here, and the main reason I was learning about this to begin with... For burning wood in a woodstove, I have read that "hardwoods" are better (seasoned of course). Now with my new understanding that there can be "hard" or dense "hardwoods" or soft (not dense) hardwoods and hard or soft softwoods... -Is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hard" or "dense" hardwood *or* a seasoned "hard" or "dense" softwood for burning in a woodstove? -Or is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hardwood" in a woodstove be it hard (dense) or soft (not dense), and not a "softwood"? -Or is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hardwood" in a woodstove that is hard (dense), but not a soft (not dense) hardwood, and not a softwood? |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Bill wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message All you need to know is that hardwoods are better to burn in your woodstove. I don't burn softwoods at all, just let them rot when they fall... Well now we are getting to the crux of the matter here, and the main reason I was learning about this to begin with... For burning wood in a woodstove, I have read that "hardwoods" are better (seasoned of course). Now with my new understanding that there can be "hard" or dense "hardwoods" or soft (not dense) hardwoods and hard or soft softwoods... -Is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hard" or "dense" hardwood *or* a seasoned "hard" or "dense" softwood for burning in a woodstove? -Or is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hardwood" in a woodstove be it hard (dense) or soft (not dense), and not a "softwood"? -Or is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hardwood" in a woodstove that is hard (dense), but not a soft (not dense) hardwood, and not a softwood? I burn a lot of wood, but I don't claim to be a universal expert on wood burning. Where I live the forests are 95%+ hardwoods and hardwoods are known by us in this region to be the better trees to burn largely because they do not create the creosote that softwoods do. I know people on this board who live in regions where the forests are primarily softwoods will say that they do fine burning softwoods. The native and/or common softwoods we have here in Pennsylvania such as Hemlock, various pines, Juniper (comnmonly called cedar here), or varieties of spruce or firs planted by people, and others are never burned in a woodstove or fireplace by anyone I know. The woods I have in my woods, shown in my preference for burning are as follows: 1) Oak of any type 2) Ash (not as high BTUs as oak, but a good burner and easy to split) 3) Sassafras (burns nice and warm in a stove, not great for a fireplace because it will send burning embers across the room) 4) Maple of any type 5) Various other less used species such as Hickory, Aspen, and others I almost never burn some "softer" hardwoods such as sweet gum, willow of any variety or poplar. |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Here is a very handy website I came across when I was looking into
getting wood for my woodstove. It has a chart with many woods and how good they are for a fire. http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/forestry/g881.htm Regards, Gideon |
#14
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , "Bill" wrote:
Well now we are getting to the crux of the matter here, and the main reason I was learning about this to begin with... For burning wood in a woodstove, I have read that "hardwoods" are better (seasoned of course). Now with my new understanding that there can be "hard" or dense "hardwoods" or soft (not dense) hardwoods and hard or soft softwoods... -Is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hard" or "dense" hardwood *or* a seasoned "hard" or "dense" softwood for burning in a woodstove? No. Softwoods should not be burned in a fireplace or woodstove if hardwoods are available to you. Most softwoods contain resins that cause creosote buildup in the chimney or flue, which increases the risk of chimney fires. If you must burn softwoods, make sure to have your chimney cleaned frequently. Please note that some hardwoods, notably beech, *also* present this risk. -Or is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hardwood" in a woodstove be it hard (dense) or soft (not dense), and not a "softwood"? Yes. -Or is it correct to say that it is best to use a seasoned "hardwood" in a woodstove that is hard (dense), but not a soft (not dense) hardwood, and not a softwood? Well, that too. The denser the wood, the higher its fuel value in a given volume. A hundred pounds of wood has the same fuel value, whether it's a hundred pounds of hickory or yellow-poplar. Of course, the latter is a much larger pile than the former, and you'll have to stoke your stove much more often. Also, the denser hardwoods (hickory, white oak, sugar maple) tend to burn to coals, while most of the less-dense hardwoods (poplar, sycamore, silver maple) burn to ashes. Coals make a longer-lasting, hotter fire. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#15
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Bill wrote:
For burning wood in a woodstove, I have read that "hardwoods" are better (seasoned of course). The best rule of thumb is "the more a cubic foot of it weighs when completely dry, the better it is for firewood". If you are burning round sticks, the ones with the tightest growth rings last longest, all else equal. |
#16
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 04:25:14 GMT, "Em" wrote:
-snip- And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. -snip- Go to your local borg and pick up a piece of poplar from the hardwood section. Repeat with some yellow pine in the softwoods. You'll find the yellow pine much harder. Re-read the original post. Jim |
#17
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In misc.rural Jim Elbrecht wrote:
: Go to your local borg and pick up a piece of poplar from the hardwood : section. Repeat with some yellow pine in the softwoods. You'll : find the yellow pine much harder. : Re-read the original post. Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is? The softest hardwood? |
#18
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , wrote:
Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is? The softest hardwood? The softest hardwood has gotta be balsa. Dunno about the hardest softwood... longleaf pine is certainly one of the hardest in North America, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some tropical gymnosperms that are much harder. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#19
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
wrote in message
Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is? How about Pacific Yew? I have a friend who has his barn poles made from this wood. I was trying to drive nails into this stuff and every single nail bent. This is the wood which got me interested in this topic to begin with. Pacific Yew... http://www.thenakedplank.com/Yew-pacific.html Softwoods of North America... (Yew - acrobat page121, document page 117) http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr102.pdf |
#20
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article ,
(Bill) says... wrote in message Does anyone know what the hardest softwood is? How about Pacific Yew? I have a friend who has his barn poles made from this wood. I was trying to drive nails into this stuff and every single nail bent. This is the wood which got me interested in this topic to begin with. Pacific Yew... http://www.thenakedplank.com/Yew-pacific.html That would get my vote. The stuff is not only so hard it is difficult to work, but it is also incredibly tough. Makes good bows. If you shape the bow so there is sapwood on the outside and heartwood on the inside, it will give you a natural compound bow. -- http://home.teleport.com/~larryc |
#21
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , "Em" wrote:
Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty of softwoods that are not conifers. Name one. Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. Botanically speaking, magnolia is a hardwood. And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. Botanically speaking, balsa is a hardwood, and southern yellow pine is a softwood. Methinks you need to go back and read what the OP wrote. *Much* more carefully this time. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. You are confusing "softwood" with "soft wood", and "hardwood" with "hard wood". Not the same at all, as the OP's post makes abundantly clear. -BAM "Bill" wrote in message ... Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do with the "hardness" of the wood! From the link below... "The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual hardness of the wood." "Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees." "Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks." Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species... http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#22
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Em" wrote: Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty of softwoods that are not conifers. Name one. Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. Botanically speaking, magnolia is a hardwood. Not really. Hardwood and softwood are not botanical classifications. Botanically speaking, balsa is a hardwood, and southern yellow pine is a softwood. Same problem, has nothing to do with botanical classifications. |
#23
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote: In article , "Em" wrote: Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty of softwoods that are not conifers. Name one. Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. Botanically speaking, magnolia is a hardwood. Not really. Hardwood and softwood are not botanical classifications. Picky, picky, picky. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are lumber industry terms that are exactly synonymous with the botanical terms "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. Happy now? Botanically speaking, balsa is a hardwood, and southern yellow pine is a softwood. Same problem, has nothing to do with botanical classifications. Same answer. Were you born this pedantic, or did you train? -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#24
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , "Em" wrote:
Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. Bzzt! Thanks for playing. Magnolia is harder than yellow poplar. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#25
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Em wrote:
Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty of softwoods that are not conifers. Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. -BAM Balsa is a hardwood. Most softwoods are easier to cut tham Balsa. Bunya Pine is a softwood. It is insanely hard. As the OP said, it is a taxonomic division (although his source is wrong, many Hardwoods are evergreen) ....Brock. |
#26
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Brock Ulfsen wrote:
Em wrote: Commercially available softwood may be mostly conifers, but there are plenty of softwoods that are not conifers. Take the magnolia for example. It's so soft that you couldn't build ANYthing with it. And hardwoods are definitely harder than softwoods. Just cut any hardwood with a handsaw and you'll see it takes longer than cutting any softwood. The truth I have discovered is that softwoods grow faster and less dense and hardwoods grow slower and denser, and thus the hardness and softness. -BAM Balsa is a hardwood. Most softwoods are easier to cut tham Balsa. Bunya Pine is a softwood. It is insanely hard. As the OP said, it is a taxonomic division (although his source is wrong, many Hardwoods are evergreen) ...Brock. The confusion is caused by people mixing two different classifications. There are botanical (scientific) classifications as well as commercial and other classifications. The situation is similar to tree names where you need to know the scientific name to be sure of what another person is talking about because, trees also have common names, commercial names, etc. Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division or classification of hardwoods and softwoods. Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and building trades terms based on the hardness of the wood. To further complicate, sources try to simplify the definition by equating hardwood and softwoods to some botanical classification. But, they don't fit any botanical classification very well and that is the source of the confusion. |
#27
Posted to alt.building.construction,alt.home.repair,misc.rural
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:
Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division or classification of hardwoods and softwoods. Not correct. Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and building trades terms based on the hardness of the wood. That is simply false. Longleaf pine, for example, is considerably harder than yellow poplar; however, the former is classified as a softwood by the lumber industry, and the latter as a hardwood. The lumber industry distinction between hardwood and softwood is based *loosely* on the fact that most hardwood trees are harder than most softwood trees -- but, as noted above, that is not always the case. To further complicate, sources try to simplify the definition by equating hardwood and softwoods to some botanical classification. But, they don't fit any botanical classification very well and that is the source of the confusion. The confusion is entirely on your part, sir. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. If you disagree, it's up to you to provide counterexamples. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#28
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Doug Miller wrote: In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote: Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division or classification of hardwoods and softwoods. Not correct. Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and building trades terms based on the hardness of the wood. That is simply false. Longleaf pine, for example, is considerably harder than yellow poplar; however, the former is classified as a softwood by the lumber industry, and the latter as a hardwood. The lumber industry distinction between hardwood and softwood is based *loosely* on the fact that most hardwood trees are harder than most softwood trees -- but, as noted above, that is not always the case. To further complicate, sources try to simplify the definition by equating hardwood and softwoods to some botanical classification. But, they don't fit any botanical classification very well and that is the source of the confusion. The confusion is entirely on your part, sir. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. If you disagree, it's up to you to provide counterexamples. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. Exactly. That is the way I was taught back in a HS science class. Harry K |
#29
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote: Most importantly, there is no taxonomic division or classification of hardwoods and softwoods. Not correct. Take some botany classes or just take one--taxonomy. Those terms are primarily commercial, logging, and building trades terms based on the hardness of the wood. That is simply false. Longleaf pine, for example, is considerably harder than yellow poplar; however, the former is classified as a softwood by the lumber industry, and the latter as a hardwood. Well at least you agree it is an industry classification. If it isn't generally based on the hardness of the wood, I wonder why the two categories are "softwood" and "hardwood." The lumber industry distinction between hardwood and softwood is based *loosely* on the fact that most hardwood trees are harder than most softwood trees -- but, as noted above, that is not always the case. You are right, it is loose, so loose than the wheel fell off. To further complicate, sources try to simplify the definition by equating hardwood and softwoods to some botanical classification. But, they don't fit any botanical classification very well and that is the source of the confusion. The confusion is entirely on your part, sir. "Hardwood" and "softwood" are exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. If you disagree, it's up to you to provide counterexamples. I'm confused? I know exactly what the terms angiosperm and gymnosperm mean. And if I didn't, I could go to any botany book and find the definition. If the industry equates angiosperm and gymnosperm to hardwood and softwood, why don't they just say angiosperm and gymnosperm and be correct? You already gave examples of gymnosperms that are harder than angiosperms. My point is that defining hardwood/softwood that way is useless, senseless, irresponsible, and confusing. The fact that this thread is so long confirms that. |
#30
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"Bill" wrote in message ... Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do with the "hardness" of the wood! From the link below... "The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual hardness of the wood." "Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees." "Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks." Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species... http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are they hard or soft wood? And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood? I'm not sure the Univ of Tenn is the defining authority here. |
#31
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , "Chas Hurst" wrote:
Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are they hard or soft wood? Being angiosperms, they're hardwoods. And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood? Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods. I'm not sure the Univ of Tenn is the defining authority here. Perhaps not, but they agree completely with the source that *is* the defining authority: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp.../fplgtr113.htm -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#32
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article , "Chas Hurst" wrote: Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are they hard or soft wood? Being angiosperms, they're hardwoods. Say you, but the original article also included deciduous in the definition. The above are not deciduous. And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood? Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods. Again, the original article included evergreen in it's definition of softwood, yet there are gymnosperms that are deciduous. An ambiguous definition isn't one. |
#33
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article , "Chas Hurst" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message om... In article , "Chas Hurst" wrote: Well, there are evergreen angisperms, azalea, rhododendron, holly, are they hard or soft wood? Being angiosperms, they're hardwoods. Say you, but the original article also included deciduous in the definition. The above are not deciduous. But, being angiosperms, they're hardwoods. And there are deciduous gymnosperms, larch? are they hard or soft wood? Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods. Again, the original article included evergreen in it's definition of softwood, yet there are gymnosperms that are deciduous. Being gymnosperms, they're softwoods, whether they're deciduous or not. An ambiguous definition isn't one. The terms "hardwood" and "softwood" are exactly synonymous with "angiosperm" and "gymnosperm" respectively. The overwhelming majority of gymnosperms are evergreen, and the overwhelming majority of temperate-zone angiosperms are deciduous. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#34
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Again, the original article included evergreen in it's definition of
softwood, yet there are gymnosperms that are deciduous. An ambiguous definition isn't one. The Forest Products Laboratory publishes the Wood Handbook, which is usually regarded as the authority on wood and wood-base products. (Not the sole authority, but neither is it contested.) Under Hardwoods & softwoods: "Trees are divided into two broad classes, usually referred to as hardwoods and softwoods. These names can be confusing since some softwoods are actually harder than some hard-woods, and conversely some hardwoods are softer than some softwoods. For example, softwoods such as longleaf pine and Douglas-fir are typically harder than the hardwoods basswood and aspen. Botanically, hardwoods are Angiosperms; the seeds are enclosed in the ovary of the flower. Anatomically, hardwoods are porous; that is, they contain vessel elements. A vessel element is a wood cell with open ends; when vessel elements are set one above another, they form a continuous tube (vessel), which serves as a conduit for transporting water or sap in the tree. Typically, hardwoods are plants with broad leaves that, with few exceptions in the temperate re-gion, lose their leaves in autumn or winter. Most imported tropical woods are hardwoods. Botanically, softwoods are Gymnosperms or conifers; the seeds are naked (not enclosed in the ovary of the flower). Anatomically, softwoods are nonporous and do not contain vessels. Softwoods are usually cone-bearing plants with needle- or scale-like evergreen leaves. Some softwoods, such as larches and baldcypress, lose their needles during autumn or winter. Major resources of softwood species are spread across the United States, except for the Great Plains where only small areas are forested. Softwood species are often loosely grouped in three general regions, as shown in Table 1-1. Hardwoods also occur in all parts of the United States, although most grow east of the Great Plains. Hardwood species are shown by region in Table 1-2." |
#35
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Live oak, some call them "evergreens" although they don't resemble any
conifer, drop their leaves not at the end of the growing season, but, at the beginning of spring. Leaves are soon replaced in less than a week. If one is not paying attention, one might think they never lose their leaves. Just an addendum to the defintion provided by the original post. They're hardwood if anyone is perplexed. -- Lil' Dave Beware the rule quoters, the corp mindset, the Borg Else you will be absorbed "Bill" wrote in message ... Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do with the "hardness" of the wood! From the link below... "The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual hardness of the wood." "Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees." "Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks." Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species... http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf |
#36
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Jim wrote:
Live oak, some call them "evergreens" although they don't resemble any conifer, drop their leaves not at the end of the growing season, but, at the beginning of spring. Leaves are soon replaced in less than a week. If one is not paying attention, one might think they never lose their leaves. Just an addendum to the defintion provided by the original post. They're hardwood if anyone is perplexed. If you've ever had one growing in your yard, you'll never think they don't lose their leaves. -- "It used to just be CIA agents with ear-pieces who walked round with preoccupied, faraway expressions, and consequently regarded all the little people as irrelevant scum." Lynne Truss |
#37
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
"Bill" writes:
Well you learn something everyday and I sure learned something interesting awhile ago. Seems that the terms hardwood and softwood have nothing to do with the "hardness" of the wood! From the link below... "The terms softwood and hardwood are used to reference the taxonomical division that separates a species and have little to do with the actual hardness of the wood." "Hardwood trees have broad leaves and are deciduous - they lose their leaves at the end of the growing season. Hardwoods are angiosperms - using flowers to pollinate for seed reproduction. Oaks, maples, birches and fruit trees are examples of hardwood trees." "Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks." Wood Identification for Hardwood and Softwood Species... http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publi...les/PB1692.pdf Well, "when I use a word, it means precisely what I want it to mean". At least one dictionary I found offers a 3rd definition: [Macquarie] Word: hardwood Pron: ['hadwyd] 1 n. - Bot. any of the generally broadleaved, angiospermous trees with sieve tubes for the conduction of nutrient solutions, most of which have hard wood, as the eucalypts, but some of which have soft wood, as the balsa. 2 - the wood of such a tree. 3 - (in popular use) any wood which is hard. |
#38
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
I thought this was a post about Lyle! Haven't seen hide nor hair of
him in a while. Wonder what he's up to... R |
#39
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
Don't know... I sort of miss him in a strange kind of way......
S. "RicodJour" wrote in message oups.com... I thought this was a post about Lyle! Haven't seen hide nor hair of him in a while. Wonder what he's up to... R |
#40
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Hardwood not hard, softwood not soft! (necessarily)
In article ,
(Bill) says... "Softwood trees are conifers (evergreens), have needles or scale-like foliage and are not deciduous. Softwoods are gymnosperms, meaning they do not have flowers and use cones for seed reproduction. Examples of softwoods include pines, spruces, firs and hemlocks." I have my doubts about this article. One of my favorite flowers is the sugar pine blossom, which is a great big flower about 5" in diameter that blossoms in the early spring. Incense cedar is blossoming now, and the scent of cedar blossoms is filling the air. The dawn redwood is deciduous in cool climates, while madrone (arbutus menziesi) is a broad leaf, flowering evergreen with deciduous bark. Anyway, conifers definitely have blossoms. In some cases they are even showy. The cone is just a seed case that appears after the blossom fades. -- http://home.teleport.com/~larryc |
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