Hello,

Appologies in advance - I am a total clueless newbie. I did try a
google search of the archieve, but no luck.

Last year, I bought a cottage in the Muskokas in Central Ontario. The
cottage was built in 1993, is well insulated and is lived in all year
round by the previous owners until I bought it. The primary heating
source is an efficient wood stove, but there are base-board electric
heaters. The cottage has post and beam construction, and there is 5-6
feet under the cottage, with a dirt floor (what I call the crawlspace).
The walls of the crawlspace are cinderblock, but are insulated. The
"roof" of the crawlspace (which is also the floor of the cottage) is
not insulated - it is bare wood covered in carpet upstairs. The
cottage has heated lines bringing the water from the lake, and the
pipes run in the crawlspace (with the water heater etc.)

Last year, my first year with the cottage, I left the heaters on at
about 15 degrees C when I wasn't there, but the pipes froze on me when
the weather hit - 20 or 30. The previous owner never had a problem
with the pipes freezing, but then living there year round, the place
was always warm (and presumably some heat went through the floor and
kept the crawlspeace warm) and the water was being used. The copper
pipes are insulated with that grey foam stuff.

My initial thought was to use something like this
http://www.heatline.com/palprod.htm , but I was advised that if the
power went out (which it does from time to time), the heat would
dissipate quickly and things would freeze. So I might be better to
insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace and put a heat source down
there.

I am looking for any suggestions overall, but if the advice to heat the
crawlspace is right, what type of heating can/should I use, given that
it is going to be on a dirt floor (or maybe a sheet of metal or
something on a dirt floor) and will be left alone for a few weeks at a
time.

Is there a heater with a themostat that I can use in this application?
If so, presumably I would then insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace.

Sorry for the long question.

Regards,

Gideon

Any heatsource or power needed can fail, even a new set up, and freeze
the pipes when you leave, Safest is to drain them , put antifreeze in
traps and have no worry. Im set up so its a 1 minute job, turn off main,
open line drain, open faucets, pour in antifreeze. Then I also dont have
the cost of wasted heat.

Might be able to use just a 100 watt light bulb! May want to experiment to
see what is needed so you only use the minimum amount of heat required and
save on the heating cost. They make wireless indoor/outdoor thermometers
which have a wireless remote sensor, might want to stick the remote in the
crawlspace with one lightbulb, two lightbulbs, or additional heating if that
does not work. (Place temp sensor away from bulb of course.)


wrote in message
Hello,

Appologies in advance - I am a total clueless newbie. I did try a
google search of the archieve, but no luck.

Last year, I bought a cottage in the Muskokas in Central Ontario. The
cottage was built in 1993, is well insulated and is lived in all year
round by the previous owners until I bought it. The primary heating
source is an efficient wood stove, but there are base-board electric
heaters. The cottage has post and beam construction, and there is 5-6
feet under the cottage, with a dirt floor (what I call the crawlspace).
The walls of the crawlspace are cinderblock, but are insulated. The
"roof" of the crawlspace (which is also the floor of the cottage) is
not insulated - it is bare wood covered in carpet upstairs. The
cottage has heated lines bringing the water from the lake, and the
pipes run in the crawlspace (with the water heater etc.)

Last year, my first year with the cottage, I left the heaters on at
about 15 degrees C when I wasn't there, but the pipes froze on me when
the weather hit - 20 or 30. The previous owner never had a problem
with the pipes freezing, but then living there year round, the place
was always warm (and presumably some heat went through the floor and
kept the crawlspeace warm) and the water was being used. The copper
pipes are insulated with that grey foam stuff.

My initial thought was to use something like this
http://www.heatline.com/palprod.htm , but I was advised that if the
power went out (which it does from time to time), the heat would
dissipate quickly and things would freeze. So I might be better to
insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace and put a heat source down
there.

I am looking for any suggestions overall, but if the advice to heat the
crawlspace is right, what type of heating can/should I use, given that
it is going to be on a dirt floor (or maybe a sheet of metal or
something on a dirt floor) and will be left alone for a few weeks at a
time.

Is there a heater with a themostat that I can use in this application?
If so, presumably I would then insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace.

Sorry for the long question.

Regards,

Gideon

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

Appologies in advance - I am a total clueless newbie. I did try a
google search of the archieve, but no luck.

Last year, I bought a cottage in the Muskokas in Central Ontario. The
cottage was built in 1993, is well insulated and is lived in all year
round by the previous owners until I bought it. The primary heating
source is an efficient wood stove, but there are base-board electric
heaters. The cottage has post and beam construction, and there is 5-6
feet under the cottage, with a dirt floor (what I call the crawlspace).
The walls of the crawlspace are cinderblock, but are insulated. The
"roof" of the crawlspace (which is also the floor of the cottage) is
not insulated - it is bare wood covered in carpet upstairs. The
cottage has heated lines bringing the water from the lake, and the
pipes run in the crawlspace (with the water heater etc.)

Last year, my first year with the cottage, I left the heaters on at
about 15 degrees C when I wasn't there, but the pipes froze on me when
the weather hit - 20 or 30. The previous owner never had a problem
with the pipes freezing, but then living there year round, the place
was always warm (and presumably some heat went through the floor and
kept the crawlspeace warm) and the water was being used. The copper
pipes are insulated with that grey foam stuff.

My initial thought was to use something like this
http://www.heatline.com/palprod.htm , but I was advised that if the
power went out (which it does from time to time), the heat would
dissipate quickly and things would freeze. So I might be better to
insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace and put a heat source down
there.

I am looking for any suggestions overall, but if the advice to heat the
crawlspace is right, what type of heating can/should I use, given that
it is going to be on a dirt floor (or maybe a sheet of metal or
something on a dirt floor) and will be left alone for a few weeks at a
time.

Is there a heater with a themostat that I can use in this application?
If so, presumably I would then insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace.

Sorry for the long question.

Regards,

Gideon

I grew up in Iowa on a farm that when the water line in the ground was put
in was not deep enough in spots. On the coldest nights Dad would leave the
water tap on just a crack so that the pump would come on a few times a
night. Seemed to solve the issues on the really cold nights.

If your going to use electric heat tape. Make sure you insulate over the
tape and pipe. It might help the run time on the electric.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

Appologies in advance - I am a total clueless newbie. I did try a
google search of the archieve, but no luck.
snipped.....

My initial thought was to use something like this
http://www.heatline.com/palprod.htm , but I was advised that if the
power went out (which it does from time to time), the heat would
dissipate quickly and things would freeze. So I might be better to
insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace and put a heat source down
there.

I am looking for any suggestions overall, but if the advice to heat the
crawlspace is right, what type of heating can/should I use, given that
it is going to be on a dirt floor (or maybe a sheet of metal or
something on a dirt floor) and will be left alone for a few weeks at a
time.

Is there a heater with a themostat that I can use in this application?
If so, presumably I would then insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace.

Sorry for the long question.

Regards,

Gideon

What type of heater are you thinking of? An electric one faces the same
issues
as using heat tape (ie. lose power, things cool off). I've done this.
I installed a drain at the lowest point of my system. When I leave, I turn
off
the main, open the drain, and fill all my sinks/toilet/drains with RV
antifreeze.
I have heat tape/insulation on all the lines under the cabin for when we are
up there
but I haven't had an issue yet. The added benefit to just shutting the
water off
is you eliminate the potential for a burst line or leak (I've got a
washer/dryer) when I'm not there.
HTH
Cheers,
cc

I grew up in Iowa on a farm that when the water line in the ground was put
in was not deep enough in spots. On the coldest nights Dad would leave
the
water tap on just a crack so that the pump would come on a few times a
night. Seemed to solve the issues on the really cold nights.

Which would only work if something was pumping the water along. Should
power go out you're still stuck.

If it's going to remain unheated and unoccupied then the only sensible thing
to do is drain the lines.

wrote:
Hello,

Appologies in advance - I am a total clueless newbie. I did try a
google search of the archieve, but no luck.

Last year, I bought a cottage in the Muskokas in Central Ontario. The
cottage was built in 1993, is well insulated and is lived in all year
round by the previous owners until I bought it. The primary heating
source is an efficient wood stove, but there are base-board electric
heaters. The cottage has post and beam construction, and there is 5-6
feet under the cottage, with a dirt floor (what I call the crawlspace).
The walls of the crawlspace are cinderblock, but are insulated. The
"roof" of the crawlspace (which is also the floor of the cottage) is
not insulated - it is bare wood covered in carpet upstairs. The
cottage has heated lines bringing the water from the lake, and the
pipes run in the crawlspace (with the water heater etc.)

Last year, my first year with the cottage, I left the heaters on at
about 15 degrees C when I wasn't there, but the pipes froze on me when
the weather hit - 20 or 30. The previous owner never had a problem
with the pipes freezing, but then living there year round, the place
was always warm (and presumably some heat went through the floor and
kept the crawlspeace warm) and the water was being used. The copper
pipes are insulated with that grey foam stuff.

My initial thought was to use something like this
http://www.heatline.com/palprod.htm , but I was advised that if the
power went out (which it does from time to time), the heat would
dissipate quickly and things would freeze. So I might be better to
insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace and put a heat source down
there.

I am looking for any suggestions overall, but if the advice to heat the
crawlspace is right, what type of heating can/should I use, given that
it is going to be on a dirt floor (or maybe a sheet of metal or
something on a dirt floor) and will be left alone for a few weeks at a
time.

Is there a heater with a themostat that I can use in this application?
If so, presumably I would then insulate the ceiling of the crawlspace.

Sorry for the long question.

Regards,

Gideon


First thing you do is cover that dirt floor with 6
mil plastic. If you are going to be down there,
then throw some board on top of the plastic where
you wall.

Second, make sure the water supply pipe is buried
below the freeze line and that it is well
insulated where it comes into the crawlspace. If
it comes out of the ground, then construct a 2
square foot box (no bottom or top around the pipe
and fill to a 1 foot depth of insulation.

That said, if you kept the set at 15 C it should
never have frozen. You say the cinder block is
well insulated? how? You should have at least 3"
of insulation and it should run from the floor
above to the bottom of the wall. Note that a lot
of people insulate to the top of the concrete wall
and then fail to insulate the wood space from the
top of the concrete to the sub floor above. (you
con lose a lot of heat if that 8" or 10" space is
not insulated.

The best way to insulate in your case is to
insulate just the walls and not insulate the
bottom of the floor. At some temperature probably
-5 C or so you need some heat in the crawl space.
and let that heat filter up to protect the pipes
above the crawlspace.

Ransley suggests draining, which is a good option.
You have lots of space in the crawl space, so
make sure the plumbing has slanted runs and put
drains in at the low spots and put containers
(plastic garbage cans) in to hold the drain water.
The biggest problem is the water heater so
attach a hose to the heater drain valve and leave
it coiled there or install a permanent pipe to
drain outside. Although the water heater could
take more than an hour to drain (don't forget to
pull the breaker on the water heater) the rest
shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to open the
drains and then open upstairs taps. That is, it
should only take an hour or so to get the water
system ready for use or drained.

m Ransley wrote:
Any heatsource or power needed can fail, even a new set up, and freeze
the pipes when you leave,

Thanks. I do know that, but if my power goes out, it doesn't (usually)
go out for all that long, and my thought was that if the power is out
for few hours at minus 30, then if the pipes alone are heated in a
freezing crawlspace, it will not take long to freeze, but if the whole
crawlspace was, say, 15 C, then it would take a lot longer to cool off,
by which time the power would be back up.

Safest is to drain them , put antifreeze in
traps and have no worry. Im set up so its a 1 minute job, turn off main,
open line drain, open faucets, pour in antifreeze. Then I also dont have
the cost of wasted heat.

I agree that this is the safest way to go, but I was hoping to avoid
having to go through that every week or two. I was hoping that there
is a solution that works that would avoid it.

Thanks again,

Gideon

SQLit wrote:

I grew up in Iowa on a farm that when the water line in the ground was put
in was not deep enough in spots. On the coldest nights Dad would leave the
water tap on just a crack so that the pump would come on a few times a
night. Seemed to solve the issues on the really cold nights.

I have adopted that as a stop gap at the moment.

If your going to use electric heat tape. Make sure you insulate over the
tape and pipe. It might help the run time on the electric.

Thanks.

Gideon

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

What type of heater are you thinking of?

Whatever works the best! My girlfriend's father suggested propane, but
I have visions of an unattended propane heater blowing up my cottage.
Is this a realistic concern?

An electric one faces the same
issues
as using heat tape (ie. lose power, things cool off).

I was thinking of electric, hoping that the larger area wouldn't cool
off fast enough for the pipes to freeze if the power went out for a few
hours. My intitial post was sort of seeking input on whether there is
a heater (preferably with a thermostat) that I could safely leave on
when I'm not there.

I've done this.
I installed a drain at the lowest point of my system. When I leave, I turn
off
the main, open the drain, and fill all my sinks/toilet/drains with RV
antifreeze.
I have heat tape/insulation on all the lines under the cabin for when we are
up there
but I haven't had an issue yet. The added benefit to just shutting the
water off
is you eliminate the potential for a burst line or leak (I've got a
washer/dryer) when I'm not there.

The cottage was built so that the water can be drained, but there is a
hot water heater and (excuse the clueless term) large tank with water
and air that is part of the pumping system. I would hate to have to
drain and refill everything every week or two. OTOH, maybe there's no
realistic alternative.

Thanks, cc.

Gideon

George E. Cawthon wrote:

First thing you do is cover that dirt floor with 6
mil plastic. If you are going to be down there,
then throw some board on top of the plastic where
you wall.

Second, make sure the water supply pipe is buried
below the freeze line and that it is well
insulated where it comes into the crawlspace. If
it comes out of the ground, then construct a 2
square foot box (no bottom or top around the pipe
and fill to a 1 foot depth of insulation.

I will look next time I'm up.

That said, if you kept the set at 15 C it should
never have frozen.

Well, I kept the "upstairs" at 15 C. I am not sure how well the heater
travels down to the crawlspace (hence my thought of heating the
crawlspace).

You say the cinder block is
well insulated? how?

It is insulated with the rigid foam insulation. I haven't measured it,
but I may do that. There is an access door (from outside), that wasn't
sealed properly last year when I had freezing problem. I believe I
have it insulated now (with the rigid foam and some Fiberglass pink).

You should have at least 3"
of insulation and it should run from the floor
above to the bottom of the wall. Note that a lot
of people insulate to the top of the concrete wall
and then fail to insulate the wood space from the
top of the concrete to the sub floor above. (you
con lose a lot of heat if that 8" or 10" space is
not insulated.

Another thing I will check when I get back up there!

The best way to insulate in your case is to
insulate just the walls and not insulate the
bottom of the floor. At some temperature probably
-5 C or so you need some heat in the crawl space.
and let that heat filter up to protect the pipes
above the crawlspace.

That's what I was thinking (still need an answer whether there is a
heater I can leave down there unattended). As the outside temperature
will likely get to minus 20 or 30 C (as it did last year), I was
looking for help.

Ransley suggests draining, which is a good option.

As I said to the other helpful posters, I am trying to avoid that, if I
can.

Regards (and thanks),

Gideon

wrote in message
oups.com...

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

What type of heater are you thinking of?

Whatever works the best! My girlfriend's father suggested propane, but
I have visions of an unattended propane heater blowing up my cottage.
Is this a realistic concern?

I had a wall hung unit at my cabin that burned propane. Used to leave it
on all the time during the winter and never had any issues. It was one of
those ventless ones though and it stunk like hell. I wouldn't want to run
it under the house. I have since retired the wall hung unit and installed
a forced air furnace under the house which as a bonus, keeps the crawl space
pretty warm.


An electric one faces the same
issues
as using heat tape (ie. lose power, things cool off).

I was thinking of electric, hoping that the larger area wouldn't cool
off fast enough for the pipes to freeze if the power went out for a few
hours. My intitial post was sort of seeking input on whether there is
a heater (preferably with a thermostat) that I could safely leave on
when I'm not there.

At the end of the day, any time you leave something "on" there is a level of
risk, particularly if you're not there to react quickly if need be. I leave
my furnace on up there on the lowest setting and hope I don't get back up
there and find a pile of ashes. One reason I drain my lines is so I don't
get up there and find a swimming pool in the place.


I've done this.
I installed a drain at the lowest point of my system. When I leave, I
turn
off
the main, open the drain, and fill all my sinks/toilet/drains with RV
antifreeze.
I have heat tape/insulation on all the lines under the cabin for when we
are
up there
but I haven't had an issue yet. The added benefit to just shutting the
water off
is you eliminate the potential for a burst line or leak (I've got a
washer/dryer) when I'm not there.

The cottage was built so that the water can be drained, but there is a
hot water heater and (excuse the clueless term) large tank with water
and air that is part of the pumping system. I would hate to have to
drain and refill everything every week or two. OTOH, maybe there's no
realistic alternative.

So you're on a well/pump. The expansion tank is there to buffer the pump
from running all the time. Honestly, that tank, I'm guessing, doesn't hold
all that much water. On my water heater, I drain about 1/2 of it
out...plenty of room for expansion should the water freeze. I don't know,
a few gallons of water vs. frozen/burst pipes and a real mess to deal
with....I'd probably go the drain route (actually, I already have). I'm
sure there are other alternatives that I'm not aware of but draining seems
like the less risky of the ones I know.
Cheers,
cc

So power outages dont last where you are, well get a major ice storm
and 5 days can happen. best is drain, but at least turn off the main 5
gpm can ruin a house fast, its your house.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
So power outages dont last where you are, well get a major ice storm
and 5 days can happen. best is drain, but at least turn off the main 5
gpm can ruin a house fast, its your house.


Not sure why this comment? I do drain my lines as I mentioned in earlier
posts. I basically shut off and drain my lines any time I'm not there
(summer included).
Cheers,
cc

wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote:


First thing you do is cover that dirt floor with 6
mil plastic. If you are going to be down there,
then throw some board on top of the plastic where
you wall.

Second, make sure the water supply pipe is buried
below the freeze line and that it is well
insulated where it comes into the crawlspace. If
it comes out of the ground, then construct a 2
square foot box (no bottom or top around the pipe
and fill to a 1 foot depth of insulation.


I will look next time I'm up.

That said, if you kept the set at 15 C it should
never have frozen.


Well, I kept the "upstairs" at 15 C. I am not sure how well the heater
travels down to the crawlspace (hence my thought of heating the
crawlspace).


You say the cinder block is
well insulated? how?


It is insulated with the rigid foam insulation. I haven't measured it,
but I may do that. There is an access door (from outside), that wasn't
sealed properly last year when I had freezing problem. I believe I
have it insulated now (with the rigid foam and some Fiberglass pink).


You should have at least 3"
of insulation and it should run from the floor
above to the bottom of the wall. Note that a lot
of people insulate to the top of the concrete wall
and then fail to insulate the wood space from the
top of the concrete to the sub floor above. (you
con lose a lot of heat if that 8" or 10" space is
not insulated.


Another thing I will check when I get back up there!

The best way to insulate in your case is to
insulate just the walls and not insulate the
bottom of the floor. At some temperature probably
-5 C or so you need some heat in the crawl space.
and let that heat filter up to protect the pipes
above the crawlspace.


That's what I was thinking (still need an answer whether there is a
heater I can leave down there unattended). As the outside temperature
will likely get to minus 20 or 30 C (as it did last year), I was
looking for help.

Ransley suggests draining, which is a good option.


As I said to the other helpful posters, I am trying to avoid that, if I
can.

Regards (and thanks),

Gideon

It sounds like you have it generally in hand and
just need to make sure you don't have any air
leaks. The plastic over the dirt will improve
temperature control. As one other person
suggested, a light bulb can be used for a heater.

Years ago, I constructed a play house for my son;
it was 9'x9' with two 7' high stories. The bottom
story is used for storage. We try to keep the
temperature in the bottom from falling below 40 F
(about 8 C) because we store canned goods and
potatoes there. We heat the lower level with a
75 light bulb when the temperature drops below 32
F (0 C.) by turning the bulb on for a few hours
each day. When temperatures drop below 0 F
(about-16 C), we run a 750 W heater for a few
hours each day. You could probably keep your
crawlspace above freezing with two 100W bulbs
operating all the time and a small heater with the
thermostat set to go on at 30-35 degrees.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

You could probably keep your
crawlspace above freezing with two 100W bulbs
operating all the time and a small heater with the
thermostat set to go on at 30-35 degrees.

Any recommendations for a heater like this that would be the least
dangerous to leave unnattended?

Thanks,

Gideon

You could probably keep your
crawlspace above freezing with two 100W bulbs
operating all the time and a small heater with the
thermostat set to go on at 30-35 degrees.

Any recommendations for a heater like this that would be the least
dangerous to leave unnattended?

You can probably buy a complete rig designed for wellhouses,
but I still don't understand why you want to heat the whole
crawlspace when the only thing you need to keep warm is the
pipes.

replying to Goedjn, Gary wrote:
You ever get an answer/

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