Live in Indianapolis, @ 1,700 sq. ft. single story ranch style brick house
built in the early 1950's with a crawl space and hot water/gas heat.
Central A/C was retro-fitted in the early 80's, with all the vents insulated
and the duct work (the insulated flexible tubes/hoses) running in the attic.

We paid $250-320 per month from December to March last year (yikes).
However, in spite of the prices being 25-30% higher that year than the year
previous, our bills were about the same.

Why? Answer: 1.) I replaced the skirt under our front door (the previous
one was missing about 7 inches of it, so you could see light inside when
sitting in our car outside and 2.) there was a 6ft.x 6ft. square area in our
attic (just above our bed in fact) that had NO insulation. Tossed some
(about 8 inches) of the fiberfill over it and it made a HUGE difference. As
a result, our bills at least stayed flat compared to the year before.

Anyway, I was relating this to my neighbor, and he said he paid about $400
TOTAL last year for the same size house with same attachments/features. The
differences? As follows:

1.) He insulated his crawl space by stapling insulation (R-13) just below
the joists along the rim board of the house and going down to the ground of
the crawl space and out about 2 ft. He stated that the cold comes down thru
the earth and also across out about 18 inches.

2.) He plugged up and insulated over 4 of the 5 grate vents that went to
the crawl space. The fifth he left open to let in some air flow. He
indicated the vents were originally put in to be in code in the 1950's, but
that those codes are now obsolete and that you only had to account for 15
cubic ft. of air flow per minute per person, which is accomplished by the
following...

3.) He cut a 9"x14" hole in the floor near the center of the house and had
it vented to just above the grade in the crawl space. Apparently this
creates enough flow....also...the earth temp in the middle of the crawl
space of 56 degrees heats the cold outside air before it can come up to the
living area. He also indicated that he runs a bathroom fan 24/7 to assist
in drawing the air flow.

4.) He "vented" his gas furnace (in the garage in both houses, his and
mine). He basically cut a 4 inch round hole in his garage window, inserted
a dryer vent fitting into it and then ran aluminum flexible tubing from the
window down onto the floor. He stated that this gives the furnace all the
oxygen it needs, while without this, with the garage being largely sealed,
it doesn't get enough oxygen and the gas flame has some orange to it. He
also said since the garage is on a slab, the earth's temp heats up that air
(the garage has a radiator in it, though not a thermostat). Is this safe?

5.) He dialed down the temp of the water running through the system from
180 degrees to about 110 degrees. He said this causes his electric pump to
run more continuously, but that it is designed for that and that it uses a
minimum of electricity. He also said this makes for a more even keeled
temp, in the system and all around in the living space. Safe?

6.) He also turned down his hot water heater from 140 degrees to 110.

Your thoughts on these are greatly appreciated if you are anything close to
an expert or professional. I am considering implementing all of these.
Should cost less than $250 total, including retrofitting my garage window
for the vent and the insulation.

I also installed some magnetic vinyl over the two air intakes in the ceiling
at either end of my house that are used for the a/c (when I lay on the couch
underneath on of them in the winter, I can feel the cold air cascading
down). I figure if the AC isn't being used, why let warm air up there to
get cooled down and then fall into the living area? Also, should I use
these over the outflow a/c vents in each room in addition to simply closing
them?

Finally, the thing I have the most doubt over is the plugging up the crawl
space vents, except one, then cutting the hole in the floor with a grating
on top of it.

I want to implement all these, but need a little reassurance that I'm not
putting my family at risk. He's on a "level pay" system with our Gas
company of $70/month, and just got his "settle up at the end of the year"
statement, which was accompanied by a check for $355 made out to him. Nice.

Thanks.

"BuddyBiancalana" wrote in message
. ..
Live in Indianapolis, @ 1,700 sq. ft. single story ranch style brick house
built in the early 1950's with a crawl space and hot water/gas heat.
Central A/C was retro-fitted in the early 80's, with all the vents
insulated
and the duct work (the insulated flexible tubes/hoses) running in the
attic.

We paid $250-320 per month from December to March last year (yikes).
However, in spite of the prices being 25-30% higher that year than the
year
previous, our bills were about the same.

Why? Answer: 1.) I replaced the skirt under our front door (the previous
one was missing about 7 inches of it, so you could see light inside when
sitting in our car outside and 2.) there was a 6ft.x 6ft. square area in
our
attic (just above our bed in fact) that had NO insulation. Tossed some
(about 8 inches) of the fiberfill over it and it made a HUGE difference.
As
a result, our bills at least stayed flat compared to the year before.

Anyway, I was relating this to my neighbor, and he said he paid about $400
TOTAL last year for the same size house with same attachments/features.
The
differences? As follows:

1.) He insulated his crawl space by stapling insulation (R-13) just below
the joists along the rim board of the house and going down to the ground
of
the crawl space and out about 2 ft. He stated that the cold comes down
thru
the earth and also across out about 18 inches.

2.) He plugged up and insulated over 4 of the 5 grate vents that went to
the crawl space. The fifth he left open to let in some air flow. He
indicated the vents were originally put in to be in code in the 1950's,
but
that those codes are now obsolete and that you only had to account for 15
cubic ft. of air flow per minute per person, which is accomplished by the
following...

3.) He cut a 9"x14" hole in the floor near the center of the house and had
it vented to just above the grade in the crawl space. Apparently this
creates enough flow....also...the earth temp in the middle of the crawl
space of 56 degrees heats the cold outside air before it can come up to
the
living area. He also indicated that he runs a bathroom fan 24/7 to assist
in drawing the air flow.

4.) He "vented" his gas furnace (in the garage in both houses, his and
mine). He basically cut a 4 inch round hole in his garage window,
inserted
a dryer vent fitting into it and then ran aluminum flexible tubing from
the
window down onto the floor. He stated that this gives the furnace all the
oxygen it needs, while without this, with the garage being largely sealed,
it doesn't get enough oxygen and the gas flame has some orange to it. He
also said since the garage is on a slab, the earth's temp heats up that
air
(the garage has a radiator in it, though not a thermostat). Is this safe?

5.) He dialed down the temp of the water running through the system from
180 degrees to about 110 degrees. He said this causes his electric pump
to
run more continuously, but that it is designed for that and that it uses a
minimum of electricity. He also said this makes for a more even keeled
temp, in the system and all around in the living space. Safe?

6.) He also turned down his hot water heater from 140 degrees to 110.

Your thoughts on these are greatly appreciated if you are anything close
to
an expert or professional. I am considering implementing all of these.
Should cost less than $250 total, including retrofitting my garage window
for the vent and the insulation.

I also installed some magnetic vinyl over the two air intakes in the
ceiling
at either end of my house that are used for the a/c (when I lay on the
couch
underneath on of them in the winter, I can feel the cold air cascading
down). I figure if the AC isn't being used, why let warm air up there to
get cooled down and then fall into the living area? Also, should I use
these over the outflow a/c vents in each room in addition to simply
closing
them?

Finally, the thing I have the most doubt over is the plugging up the crawl
space vents, except one, then cutting the hole in the floor with a grating
on top of it.

I want to implement all these, but need a little reassurance that I'm not
putting my family at risk. He's on a "level pay" system with our Gas
company of $70/month, and just got his "settle up at the end of the year"
statement, which was accompanied by a check for $355 made out to him.
Nice.

Thanks.

We used to plug the crawl space holes with bales of straw in the winter, (on
the farm)
I always thought it had to do more with critters than heating the house. I
cover the ventulator on my roof in the winter.

The manufacture of the heater would know more about the fresh air needs of a
given unit. I know that ducting fresh air in for combustion is a good idea.
How ever 4 inches seems pretty small for a furnance. I have more than 20
square inches just for a 30 gallon water heater.

Neighbors lie sometimes to impress you...

The rest of my comments are in line.

"BuddyBiancalana" wrote in message
. ..
Live in Indianapolis, @ 1,700 sq. ft. single story ranch style brick house
built in the early 1950's with a crawl space and hot water/gas heat.
Central A/C was retro-fitted in the early 80's, with all the vents
insulated
and the duct work (the insulated flexible tubes/hoses) running in the
attic.

We paid $250-320 per month from December to March last year (yikes).
However, in spite of the prices being 25-30% higher that year than the
year
previous, our bills were about the same.

Why? Answer: 1.) I replaced the skirt under our front door (the previous
one was missing about 7 inches of it, so you could see light inside when
sitting in our car outside and 2.) there was a 6ft.x 6ft. square area in
our
attic (just above our bed in fact) that had NO insulation. Tossed some
(about 8 inches) of the fiberfill over it and it made a HUGE difference.
As
a result, our bills at least stayed flat compared to the year before.

Good start.

Anyway, I was relating this to my neighbor, and he said he paid about $400
TOTAL last year for the same size house with same attachments/features.
The
differences? As follows:

1.) He insulated his crawl space by stapling insulation (R-13) just below
the joists along the rim board of the house and going down to the ground
of
the crawl space and out about 2 ft. He stated that the cold comes down
thru
the earth and also across out about 18 inches.

Good idea, but I'd take it a step further. Do all that and lay a sheet of
haevy plastic (visqueen) on the dirt. That will trap moisture.

2.) He plugged up and insulated over 4 of the 5 grate vents that went to
the crawl space. The fifth he left open to let in some air flow. He
indicated the vents were originally put in to be in code in the 1950's,
but
that those codes are now obsolete and that you only had to account for 15
cubic ft. of air flow per minute per person, which is accomplished by the
following...

Nope. No way. That will really hurt more than help, especially if he didn't
lay any plastic down. If he didn't lay plastic, he's working on a major
mold problem. At the box stores, there are thermostatic vents for your
crawl. Install them instead. That way, when it does warm up under the
house, it will open the vents to cool down.

3.) He cut a 9"x14" hole in the floor near the center of the house and had
it vented to just above the grade in the crawl space. Apparently this
creates enough flow....also...the earth temp in the middle of the crawl
space of 56 degrees heats the cold outside air before it can come up to
the
living area. He also indicated that he runs a bathroom fan 24/7 to assist
in drawing the air flow.

Do what? That one went right over my head.

4.) He "vented" his gas furnace (in the garage in both houses, his and
mine). He basically cut a 4 inch round hole in his garage window,
inserted
a dryer vent fitting into it and then ran aluminum flexible tubing from
the
window down onto the floor. He stated that this gives the furnace all the
oxygen it needs, while without this, with the garage being largely sealed,
it doesn't get enough oxygen and the gas flame has some orange to it. He
also said since the garage is on a slab, the earth's temp heats up that
air
(the garage has a radiator in it, though not a thermostat). Is this safe?

Maybe yes, maybe no. Codes require 1 square inch per 1,000 BTU's if there
is a direct connection between the appliance and the outside. As I
remember, it's 5 square inches per 1,000 BTU's if it's ducted like you say
his is. Better bet would be to drop some money and get a sealed combustion
unit.

BTW, furnaces heat air, boilers heat water.

5.) He dialed down the temp of the water running through the system from
180 degrees to about 110 degrees. He said this causes his electric pump
to
run more continuously, but that it is designed for that and that it uses a
minimum of electricity. He also said this makes for a more even keeled
temp, in the system and all around in the living space. Safe?

Uh, safe? Probably. Sane? No. If your house had a heat load run on it
and it has a boiler, it's a pretty safe bet that it was designed for the
water temp to be at 180°. In extreme cold weather, 110° water won't keep
the house warm. It's a good idea, but I'd go with something more like
outdoor reset. ODR is like cruise control for the heating system. At 65°
outside, the water temp may be at 95°. At design temp (15°?), water temp
would be at 180°. The water temp varies with the outdoor temp.

6.) He also turned down his hot water heater from 140 degrees to 110.

Nuts. Plain crazy. Leigonella bacteria THRIVE at about that temp (actually
a little lower). Besides, dishwashers need about 130° water to clean the
dishes correctly. In my area, it's cheaper to heat water with gas than 110v
household current.

Your thoughts on these are greatly appreciated if you are anything close
to
an expert or professional. I am considering implementing all of these.
Should cost less than $250 total, including retrofitting my garage window
for the vent and the insulation.

My suggestion, less the boiler and ODR will be a bit more than $250, but the
payback should be better.

I also installed some magnetic vinyl over the two air intakes in the
ceiling
at either end of my house that are used for the a/c (when I lay on the
couch
underneath on of them in the winter, I can feel the cold air cascading
down). I figure if the AC isn't being used, why let warm air up there to
get cooled down and then fall into the living area? Also, should I use
these over the outflow a/c vents in each room in addition to simply
closing
them?

As long as you remove them before AC season, that won't hurt anything.

Finally, the thing I have the most doubt over is the plugging up the crawl
space vents, except one, then cutting the hole in the floor with a grating
on top of it.

Read my comments above.

I want to implement all these, but need a little reassurance that I'm not
putting my family at risk. He's on a "level pay" system with our Gas
company of $70/month, and just got his "settle up at the end of the year"
statement, which was accompanied by a check for $355 made out to him.
Nice.

Did you see the check? Around here, they credit your account by lowering
the payments. That would mean $30 less per month. Read my first line....

8" of fiberfill is apx R 28 probably under your code minimum and well
below optimum. Do some research , Dow, Owens Corning, "Energy Star"
give insulation ratings, you are zone 6? Probably R 50 is optimal.

Sure insulate the crawlspace floor joists as well as possible, R 13 is
not enough , cutting a hole makes no sence to me as mold is also down
there. as well as cold air. Running a bath fan is only necessary if
humidity is excessive and house extremely tight. In winter keeping all
vents closed is logical, Covering the dirt floor with plastic will keep
out moisture

Turn your water heater down till you only have a hot water only shower.
Mine is at 92

A boiler pump takes apx 150 watts and costs apx 15$ a month to run 24x7
I would up the temp as electricity is still more than Ng. 110 f wont
keep you warm when its cold out

BuddyBiancalana writes:

Anyway, I was relating this to my neighbor, and he said he paid about
$400 TOTAL last year for the same size house with same
attachments/features. The differences? As follows:

1.) ...

7.) He's pulling your leg.

If he had a high efficiency funace, tankless water heater, new tri pane
windows, and dounle code insulation 400 yr is possible, Im zone 5 and
went from 1800 yr to 465 for 1800 sq, but it means sacrificing comfort-
a game to keep bills down. Ask to see his bills

6.) He also turned down his hot water heater from 140 degrees to 110.


I don't think this last bit actually saves all that much, and my
understanding is that temperatures between 40f and 140f should be
avoided as not being sufficiently hostile to disease-causing
organisms.

Follow this link on crawlspaces. Your neighbor sounds dangerous. A
little bit of knowledge.....

Crawlspace problems
http://www.contractingbusiness.com/C...S=&NI L=false


Stretch