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#41
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
JoeSixPack wrote:
wrote in message ... Jim & Lil wrote: wrote: I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would power both 240 and 120 outlets. As dangerous as this is, is this even possible? Sounds possible, and safe, unless you guzzle too much beer. You might hang a big tag on the generator that says "Turn off the main breaker!" For the added piece of mind, a generator/main selector switch is a modest investment. Power failures can result in stress and confusion that make things like leaving the main breaker on a virtual certtainty at some point. Why take the chance to save a few bucks. Reminds me of a accident we had while I was in the navy. Old Gearing class destroyer with manual transfer to shorepower. Someone forgot the other breaker and the shipboard distribution transformer exploded. When it recieved BOTH ship generator and shorepower.The hot oil from the transformer took out half the electrical gang in the engineering compartment.A 1/2 hour "all hands" firefight ensued after towards. Had to rebuild all the shipboard generators a short time later. ...One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even with your main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line via the neutral wire... That seems a very unlikely hazard, since it requires 1) a grid power failure, and 2) a hot to neutral connection that doesn't blow your own breaker, and 3) a neutral wire that doesn't end up attached to ground somewhere outside your house. Nick Unless I'm mistaken, some 240V outlets do not have the neutral wire connected to the mains. Only a ground wire, which is insufficient to power the 120V circuits. This would result in 240 service only in the house wiring, when feeding in from a generator. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#42
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Never! In Ontario.
Contractors are not called for emergencies in our area and if they are ever caught working to less than Ontario regulations they are "kicked off" the job and may have charges laid on them. 10K - $100K are common if there is an injury involved. People are tired of paying for accidents and the Legislators are trying to stop it from happenning at any cost. You do **NOT*** have rights as in a court. There is no 5th amendment. If they find you wrong. You're f**cked You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. "Spud" wrote in message ... "Steve Kraus" wrote in message nk.net... Me wrote: Your thinking is just plain wrong..... No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the generator output to ground. What about the downed power line your neighbors, and you. http://www.google.com/ In the aftermath of a disaster there are circumstances that circumvent conventional safety procedures. The utility companies rely heavily on independent construction firms to quickly restore utility lines. Private contractor employees are sometimes less familiars with the territory and the established utility company procedures. On top of everything else there is the stress caused by working long hours in inclement conditions and the pressure to restore power to thousands of customers some of whom are in dire need. A line crew was dispatched at night to restore power to a small restaurant in a mountainous area. The restaurant was served by a 3-phase, 12.47-kV, tapline, three spans in length. "The crew found that tree limbs had fallen into a corner pole (one span from the restaurant) short-circuiting the line and blowing the fuses back at the tap pole. They also discovered that the restaurant was using a generator to maintain service." The foreman confirmed that the main breaker at the restaurant was open, isolating the utility service. The crew tested and grounded the line a the tap pole and began repairs. When one lineman climbed the corner pole to remove limbs, he discovered that the jumpers and connectors were damaged and decided to replace them. "When he removed the jumpers, he was positioned in such a way that he was in contact with the under grounded portion of the line," continues Drew. For some reason, the restaurant owner was checking the generator and inadvertently closed the main breaker, backing power through the transformer bank and energizing the line up to the open jumpers. The lineman received a severe shock and died. 8/29/2005 As the number of personal electric generators grows, so does the threat of injury to utility workers and generator operators. If you connect a generator to your electrical panel without isolating it, it s simply a disaster waiting to happen. A generator thats connected to the power system can result in power lines being energized to line voltage of 7,200 volts or higher, whether theyre on the ground or still in the air. If your generator is not isolated from the Cullman EC distribution system, the transformer at your location acts in reverse and can actually step-up the normal household voltage of your generator to our system voltage. If your generator has energized power lines that are on the ground, the energized lines could prove to be a safety hazard to you, your family, and especially the linemen working to restore power. As a matter of fact, a utility worker who was repairing damage from Hurricane Dennis was killed this past July in south Alabama because of an improperly installed generator. It is up to you to ensure the safety Alabama, July 14, 2005 - Sumter Electric Cooperative (SECO) officials report that a South Carolina lineman helping to restore power in Alabama after the damage caused by Hurricane Dennis was killed late Tuesday, reportedly by an improperly installed customer generator.Alabama authorities are looking for the person responsible and indicate that charges are pending all electric connections must comply with the National Electrical Code. You may be liable for damage to property or injury to people that may result from an improperly installed or operation of an emergency generator. |
#43
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
We don't use potential or current indicator and our "ground straps" are not
straps at all but rather 2/0 or larger copper, tested for impedance, less than 0.02 (forget value) resistance. The phases are connected to the ground and/or neutral conductor and then with equipotential grounding techniques our feet are connected to that potential also in one or maore of many ways. Now we are standing in a certified, insulated to 1KV per inch tested every 6 months, boom mounted bucket doing overhead work. For U/G work we have 10Kv insulated boots on (law), 20kV insulated class 2 rubber gloves or whatever class necesasry for system voltage, flash glasses and an insulated hardhat. Nothing is ever considered dead unless grounded. Nothing is ever ground without testing first. Nothing is ever tested without a legally registered process and documented procedure, checked by at least two other certified people to switch the piece of line or equipment out. This involves tagged locks and so on and so on. People caught violating any process can and will be fired upon multiple or careless usage at any part. In short, I do not agree with backfeeding carelessness but the excuse is mostly crap but they have to tell you something to stop it. "Me" wrote in message ... In article , "Solar Flare" wrote: How would any lineman know? If they have been "zapped" by this high voltage spike you speak of, they wouldn't be telling you about it usually. If they are putting grounds on a line with their bare hands it won't take a wild generator to kill them. "Me" wrote in message ... They wouldn't have need to tell "Me", as I have been there, and seen that, many times, in one of my previous lives. Have you ever really looked at the Grounding Straps used by the Pro's? Have you ever noticed that they have builtin devices that show if they go "Hot" while connected? Where did the "Bare Hands" come from? All the linemen, I have ever known work with UL Approved Insulated Gloves, and HotSticks, but that doesn't mean they never get zapped or tingled on occasion. Me |
#44
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a
generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a small generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid. Consider that if a generator is being used then the grid is not intact and how much of it may be connected to a particular house is variable. It could be that your service is down, in which case you can only energize your service lines, possibly on the ground. It may be that your transformer fuse is blown or the primary is totally disconnected, in which case you may energize your neighbors house and the high voltage terminal of the transformer. A small generator is perfectly capable of doing this. The problem is not energizing the normal loads but energizing lines which may not have any load and are presumed to be dead. I am sure that linemen are aware of the dangers of possible backfeeding but others may not be and are not aware of an energized line hidden in debris. Why create even a potential hazard to people and property under emergency circumstances if not necessary? There would not be rules and regulations regarding backfeeding if there were no hazards involved. A hazard does not mean you can't ever do it without anything bad happening, but that the possibility is significant. Don Young "Steve Kraus" wrote in message nk.net... Me wrote: Your thinking is just plain wrong..... No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the generator output to ground. |
#45
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Me" wrote in message ... In article , "Toller" wrote: Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. Well it is easy to see that you "Don't think" period. Just what do you think happens when your genset tries to energize a segment of the grid by backfeeding thru the PolePig out on your pole? Does that one or two second pulse before you little gensets goes up in smoke, show up on the primary side of the PolePig? At what voltage does that impluse show up at?. How far does that pulse go, before it dies of IR losses? When you complete your 100 level College Course on Power & Transmission come back and tell us all about it. Untill then, don't spread your intelligence around to deeply cause your not fertilizing any crops..... Me Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"? |
#46
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
According to Don Young :
All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a small generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid. Consider that if a generator is being used then the grid is not intact and how much of it may be connected to a particular house is variable. It could be that your service is down, in which case you can only energize your service lines, possibly on the ground. It may be that your transformer fuse is blown or the primary is totally disconnected, in which case you may energize your neighbors house and the high voltage terminal of the transformer. A small generator is perfectly capable of doing this. The problem is not energizing the normal loads but energizing lines which may not have any load and are presumed to be dead. I am sure that linemen are aware of the dangers of possible backfeeding but others may not be and are not aware of an energized line hidden in debris. Why create even a potential hazard to people and property under emergency circumstances if not necessary? There would not be rules and regulations regarding backfeeding if there were no hazards involved. A hazard does not mean you can't ever do it without anything bad happening, but that the possibility is significant. It's worth remembering that in the case of most major events such as our ice storm, or the hurricanes of this season, it's not just one line break, it's _thousands_. The segment a generator might _try_ to energize could be just your lines lying on the ground, just your neighbors on the same pole pig, or larger. Certainly, if it's anything much more than that, your generator will stall (and/or smoke) out. But if it ain't, you may have created a booby trap between you and the pole awaiting anybody who walks too near, or your neighbor's house, or up on a pole. Possibly considerably higher than 120V. Ie: if we backfed the feed with a generator with a break between the last two poles coming to our house, there's a live 4KV line on the ground waiting to bite _anyone_ walking along our driveway. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#47
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
According to Toller :
Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"? Who said anything about 80 square miles? If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever. Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried. In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away, the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses' feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#48
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Oh, gee. Don't get started askign for specifics. Usenet is for wild ass statements completely lackig in truth. Since you asked, Myrtle Bingle was using her suicide cord in a power cut in Arkansas in 1956. She neglected to turn off the mains, and killed David Petersen, who was working on the line outside her house. Myrtle was a darky, and she was promptly arrested and tried. Spent the rest of her life in prison. Died last year. Remember, now, this is Usenet. You can't believe everything you read. Here are two Fatality Assessment and Control Evaluation (FACE) reports on the deaths of outside wiremen do to generator back feeds. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9002.html http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9005.html -- Tom Horne Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you. |
#49
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Toller wrote:
Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location of lineman? But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable. And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to. |
#50
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Toller" wrote in message ... "Me" wrote in message ... In article , "Toller" wrote: Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. Well it is easy to see that you "Don't think" period. Just what do you think happens when your genset tries to energize a segment of the grid by backfeeding thru the PolePig out on your pole? Does that one or two second pulse before you little gensets goes up in smoke, show up on the primary side of the PolePig? At what voltage does that impluse show up at?. How far does that pulse go, before it dies of IR losses? When you complete your 100 level College Course on Power & Transmission come back and tell us all about it. Untill then, don't spread your intelligence around to deeply cause your not fertilizing any crops..... Me Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"? Last outage we had here, we lost a 13.8kv fuse on the main highway. My house and 10 others in the development. Happened during the day, with not many folks home. I'm pretty sure a 5kw generator would have energized the line for more than just a few seconds. Folks have to remember that the load on the grid segment is highly variable. During the day, a house might only have a hundred watts or so unless the fridge kicks on. Add a thermostat for the furnace and you might have 300 watts (furnace blowers don't connect across the line until you energize the line). So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses. And that would have made 13.8kV on the downstream side of that fuse out by the main highway (some 300 yards away from my neighbor's generator). Do you *really* want to rely on how many lights the neighbor has switched on? Sure if there is a lot of loads turned on at the moment, your generator would stall out/smoke very quickly. But if all the lights are off (and the TV/computer shut off when the power goes off, so they won't come back on), then a house isn't always the same load and the generator may survive a bit longer. I remember hurricane Frederick, back in '79. Power was out for weeks to some areas. But when the utility started powering up sub-stations, they would overheat because the long outage had effectively synchronized everyones load demand. Equipment is normally sized based on a certain amount of diversity factor between you and your neighbor's A/C, 'fridge, etc... Leave the power off long enough and when it comes back they *all* want to start at once. Ka-BOOM!!! goes the sub-station. Predicting the amount of load drawn by a small group of houses can be a bit tricky. daestrom |
#51
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... According to Toller : Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"? Who said anything about 80 square miles? I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles. If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever. Yeh, and then what? Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried. Ah, but that hasn't happed to me. In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away, the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses' feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment. That's true in your case, but not in mine. Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses? I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a lineman on my feed when I turn it on? And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the voltage. Still, I have transfer switch now. |
#52
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
George wrote:
...Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary... No, you thoughtfully throw the main breaker. Nick |
#53
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your
area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing. The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no other excuse not to. Your gas Your solar Your expenses Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs) Your expertise Your hard work. Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball? "I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done" "Toller" wrote in message ... "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... According to Toller : Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"? Who said anything about 80 square miles? I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles. If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever. Yeh, and then what? Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried. Ah, but that hasn't happed to me. In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away, the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses' feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment. That's true in your case, but not in mine. Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses? I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a lineman on my feed when I turn it on? And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the voltage. Still, I have transfer switch now. |
#54
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Solar Flare wrote:
A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing. The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no other excuse not to. Your gas Your solar Your expenses Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs) Your expertise Your hard work. Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball? "I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done" That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage themselves. As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack will be documented and the guilty party held for the police. Pete C. |
#55
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours?
LOL "Pete C." wrote in message ... Solar Flare wrote: A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing. The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no other excuse not to. Your gas Your solar Your expenses Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs) Your expertise Your hard work. Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball? "I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done" That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage themselves. As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack will be documented and the guilty party held for the police. Pete C. |
#56
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
wrote:
George wrote: ...Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary... No, you thoughtfully throw the main breaker. Nick Apparently, thinking is not a highly held attribute among many posters to this newsgroup. Here's a simple solution: http://www.aecc.com/be-prepared/standby-generator/ Here is another: http://www.outbackmarine.com.au/Mast...?TypeID=299#74 -- Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html |
#57
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
George wrote:
Toller wrote: Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location of lineman? But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable. And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to. Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect. The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures. There are far more reports of utility linemen being killed or injured by other careless actions than by improperly connected generators. One report I read that springs to mind (the lineman survived this one) is where a drunk driver had plowed a pad mount transformer off the pad and tossed it a few hundred feet. The lineman arrived, walked over the the pad and saw that the high voltage cables with the "elbow" connectors looked to be in good shape so he picked one up, grabbed a rag from his pocket and proceeded to wipe some dirt out of the connector. He hadn't checked to see if things were still live and regained consciousness a short while later with the cops paying more attention to him than the drunk driver. Pete C. |
#58
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Solar Flare wrote:
All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours? LOL Uh huh. Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes. Pete C. "Pete C." wrote in message ... Solar Flare wrote: A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing. The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no other excuse not to. Your gas Your solar Your expenses Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs) Your expertise Your hard work. Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball? "I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done" That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage themselves. As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack will be documented and the guilty party held for the police. Pete C. |
#59
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
I didn't either but the topic at hand was "brick dodgeball vs the tough guy".
"Pete C." wrote in message ... Solar Flare wrote: All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours? LOL Uh huh. Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes. Pete C. "Pete C." wrote in message ... Solar Flare wrote: A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing. The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no other excuse not to. Your gas Your solar Your expenses Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs) Your expertise Your hard work. Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball? "I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done" That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage themselves. As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack will be documented and the guilty party held for the police. Pete C. |
#60
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Exactly! My, and many other's, point! Well said.
It is still advisabe to use transfer switches for generators. Take all the safety precautions you can. The nightmares and the legal fees may not be worth what could happen to you or another human being. Despite the bull**** the Electrical Utilities dish out to the simpleton public. "Pete C." wrote in message ... Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect. The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures. Pete C. |
#61
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses. Yes, but for the third time, it is 2kw. It tripped once when both the refrigerator and freezer came on at the same time. 10 houses? 2 houses would be extraordinary. |
#62
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
According to Pete C. :
Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes. You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your generator? In emergencies people do wierd things. Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#63
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!" "Pete C." wrote in message ... : George wrote: : : Toller wrote: : : Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my : generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My : 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. : : : : So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location : of lineman? : : But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary : is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So : you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in : my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable. : : And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and : scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to. : : Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main : breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect. : : The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and : backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman : directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've : seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home : generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired : lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures. : : There are far more reports of utility linemen being killed or injured by : other careless actions than by improperly connected generators. One : report I read that springs to mind (the lineman survived this one) is : where a drunk driver had plowed a pad mount transformer off the pad and : tossed it a few hundred feet. The lineman arrived, walked over the the : pad and saw that the high voltage cables with the "elbow" connectors : looked to be in good shape so he picked one up, grabbed a rag from his : pocket and proceeded to wipe some dirt out of the connector. He hadn't : checked to see if things were still live and regained consciousness a : short while later with the cops paying more attention to him than the : drunk driver. : : Pete C. |
#64
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Toller" wrote in message ... : : So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses. : : Yes, but for the third time, it is 2kw. It tripped once when both the : refrigerator and freezer came on at the same time. 10 houses? 2 houses : would be extraordinary. : : And less than one's enough to kill someone. |
#65
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Pop" wrote in message ... Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!" Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills. Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts. Vaughn |
#66
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Vaughn wrote: "Pop" wrote in message ... Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!" Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills. Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts. Vaughn Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting their generators to their electrical systems. They talk about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw the breakers. The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads. They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you ask me. Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code requires it for the safety of everyone involved! |
#67
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Waldo wrote:
Vaughn wrote: "Pop" wrote in message ... Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!" Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills. Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts. Vaughn Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting their generators to their electrical systems. They talk about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw the breakers. There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the link bar. A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel. The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads. They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you ask me. The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC. Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable. Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code requires it for the safety of everyone involved! It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in permanent installations. Pete C. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Pete C. : Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes. You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your generator? In emergencies people do wierd things. Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. If they could steal a 3,000# skid mounted diesel generator blocked in by several cars and not wake me up in the process I'd be very very surprised. Pete C. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Chris Lewis wrote: You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your generator? In emergencies people do wierd things. Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews. -- that may be true, I couldn't say but I am really bothered by the very racist hurricane thing they are doing now, what with naming them after GREEK LETTERS. What do the Greeks have to do with US hurricanes anyway. It's not like they even start in the Aegean or anything mk5000 "i'm very curious about different systems, and time you plunge into an early-adopter situation, there re unknown risks. But I felt that we could navigate it. It tourned out to be true"--Walter Murch |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
They ran out of American names
Billy Bob Billy Rae Billy Sue Billy Jean Billy Joe Billy Graham "marika" wrote in message ups.com... Chris Lewis wrote: You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your generator? In emergencies people do wierd things. Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews. -- that may be true, I couldn't say but I am really bothered by the very racist hurricane thing they are doing now, what with naming them after GREEK LETTERS. What do the Greeks have to do with US hurricanes anyway. It's not like they even start in the Aegean or anything mk5000 "i'm very curious about different systems, and time you plunge into an early-adopter situation, there re unknown risks. But I felt that we could navigate it. It tourned out to be true"--Walter Murch |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Don Young" wrote in message ... All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a small generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid. But at least once, it was energized sufficiently to kill a lineman. That justifies this discussion Don Young "Steve Kraus" wrote in message nk.net... Me wrote: Your thinking is just plain wrong..... No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the generator output to ground. It's not megawatts, or watts that kill you, it's current. Even milliamps can kill when penetrating the skin. Those milliamps can enter the body quite easily at higher voltages. Backfeeding through a transformer can produce voltages quite sufficient to conduct those milliamps through a human body. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Toller" wrote in message ... "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... According to Toller : Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"? Who said anything about 80 square miles? I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles. If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever. Yeh, and then what? Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried. Ah, but that hasn't happed to me. In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away, the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses' feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment. That's true in your case, but not in mine. Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses? I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a lineman on my feed when I turn it on? And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the voltage. Still, I have transfer switch now. Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down from say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone toucing the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current (milliamps in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge to reach dangerous conclusions. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Pete C." wrote in message ... George wrote: Toller wrote: Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location of lineman? But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable. And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to. Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect. The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures. Stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Backfeeding generators can and do kill linemen. http://www.clatskaniepud.com/Generators.htm http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vh...es/generat.htm http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/portgen.html http://eweb.org/home/energy/generator/index.htm A few of the many, many links that warn of this hazard. You are a hazard. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. As dangerous as this is, is this even possible? All I can say is that here in SE Florida since Hurricane Wilma this week, with 6 million people out of power, with my neighborhood as a sample, there must be about 1 million backfed generators hooked up and running. It is not just commonplace; it is the norm. One neighbor had a (gypsy) electrician install a 4-wire twist-lock socket in his garage specifically for backfeeding through a suicide cord. Just stand in the electrical aisle of Home Depot for 5 minutes. You will see a steady stream of people buying wire and plugs and asking how to make a backfeed connection. The same thing happened on a slightly smaller but still massive scale last year after Hurricanes Jeanne and Frances. I don't recall any reports of utility workers or users being harmed by the practice. There were certainly more people poisoned by carbon monoxide from generators than hurt or killed by electrocution from backfeeding or other misuse. Do you know what a step-down transformer does? It converts 7200 volts to 240 & 120 volts. Do you know what happens when you backfeed 240 volts through it? It puts 7200 volts back into the line. Do you know how little current it takes to kill you at such a voltage? Very little. Your limited knowledge and limited reasoning power are forming dangerous conclusions. Stop doing that. Someone may get killed because of what you are saying. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
I'm not an electrician but here's my 2 cents. You can't ever let your generator feed back down the power lines. The main breaker must be off and must stay off. It doesn't matter if your generator can't possibly power the whole neighborhood or the whole grid..If people hook up generators to their house wireing, even for a few seconds, without isolating the house from the line,.sooner or later, somewhere, the right set of conditions will exist to electrocute a lineman. You can't take that chance. The main breaker must be off. There must be no chance that anyone will turn the main breaker back on before the generator connection is removed. I can see a lot of ways for this to go wrong. I don't see where there's risk of back feeding through the neutral line any more than there would be if you have a proper generator transfer switch. Does a transfer switch isolate the neutral? |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"JoeSixPack" wrote in message news:98i9f.92972$Io.20491@clgrps13... But at least once, it was energized sufficiently to kill a lineman. That justifies this discussion No; we have had to too many times before. The world is not a perfectly safe place and far more people use far more common ways to kill themselves and others with gennys. Vaughn (a guy with a transfer panel) |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
JoeSixPack wrote:
"Toller" wrote in message ... "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... According to Toller : Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"? Who said anything about 80 square miles? I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles. If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever. Yeh, and then what? Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried. Ah, but that hasn't happed to me. In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away, the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses' feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment. That's true in your case, but not in mine. Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses? I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a lineman on my feed when I turn it on? And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the voltage. Still, I have transfer switch now. Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down from say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone toucing the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current (milliamps in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge to reach dangerous conclusions. Um, it only take milliamps to kill you at 120/240 volts as well. The only difference between 120/240 and 7,200 is amount of insulation required to protect you. Pete C. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
JoeSixPack wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message ... George wrote: Toller wrote: Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so. So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location of lineman? But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable. And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to. Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect. The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures. Stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Backfeeding generators can and do kill linemen. http://www.clatskaniepud.com/Generators.htm http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vh...es/generat.htm http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/portgen.html http://eweb.org/home/energy/generator/index.htm A few of the many, many links that warn of this hazard. You are a hazard. There is absolutely no misinformation in what I posted. The links you list border on misinformation in their omissions. I indicated that if you screw up and back feed the mains you will provide an opportunity for a careless lineman to kill themselves, not kill them directly. This is a *fact*. A lineman following established procedures will *not* be killed by a back feeding generator. As I've noted, every case I've seen where a lineman was "killed by an improperly connected generator" has clearly shown that the lineman in question did not follow proper procedures. If you have references to a case where a lineman followed procedures and was killed by an "improperly connected generator" I'd like to see it. I bet you also believe you can't put metal in a microwave oven... Pete C. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Pete C." wrote in message ... JoeSixPack wrote: Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down from say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone toucing the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current (milliamps in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge to reach dangerous conclusions. Um, it only take milliamps to kill you at 120/240 volts as well. The only difference between 120/240 and 7,200 is amount of insulation required to protect you. Pete C. Exactly right. It only takes milliamps to kill you, but the greater the voltage, the more milliamps are driven through your skin and into your body. |
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