We're going to be getting some estimates for geothermal for our house and I
wondered if anyone here could give an estimate I could use for reference
against the quotes I'll be getting. Here's our info:

Location: Northern Virginia, just north of Manassas, about 30 miles west of DC.

Heat range: As low as 6 deg in winter, to about 95 in summer.

House: Two story colonial with about 2400 sq ft. No basement, just a crawl
space.

Current hvac: Central heating/cooling. Fairly new oil furnace (Armstrong Air
Ultra 80) and aging Ruud A/C.

We don't use the A/C that much, because we have installed fans in the kitchen,
bedroom, etc. We keep the house at about 70 deg in the winter.

Last heating season, we used about 900 gallons of oil (it was colder than
normal).

We have an acre and a half, so there's plenty of room to drill or trench.

Local dealers sell Waterfurnace and Econar.

Our main motivation is the price of heating oil contracts which went from
$1.25/gallon last year to $2.00 for this year. Probably be $3/gallon next year.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or rough guesses about what it would cost to switch
to geothermal.


--
Tony Karp, TLC Systems Corp
Techno-Impressionist Museum: http://www.techno-impressionist.com
TLC Systems: http://www.tlc-systems.com

"Tony Karp" tkarp AT tlc DASH systems DOT com wrote

Our main motivation is the price of heating oil contracts which went from
$1.25/gallon last year to $2.00 for this year. Probably be $3/gallon next
year.


We were selling oil at $1.64 a gallon all last winter (we are right across
the river from you), but I agree: Who know what it will be next year.

I have an air source heatpump that I am very happy with, but my only
suggestion to you is to call a MINIMUM of 3 companies to come out and give
you a price. However, as many have stated here before, it's the INSTALLER
that is more important than the equipment. Ask your friends or neighbors who
they use. Someone with a proven track record of professional installations
and reliable service is who you want to go with. Don't base your decision on
price.

Tony Karp tkarp AT tlc DASH systems DOT com wrote:

We're going to be getting some estimates for geothermal for our house...

You might also consider a sunspace or solar siding.

Northern Virginia, just north of Manassas, about 30 miles west of DC.

NREL says 1040 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls a south wall on an average 30.6 F day
with a 40.1 daily max in Stirling VA, when a square foot of south glazing
might collect 0.9x1040 = 936 Btu and lose 6h(80-35)1ft^2/R1 = 270, for a net
gain of 666 [evil] Btu/day.

Last heating season, we used about 900 gallons of oil (it was colder than
normal).

So you need about 900x100KBtu/5006DD = 18K Btu/DD, eg (65-30.6)18K
= 618K Btu on an average January day, which might come from 618K/666
= 929 ft^2 of transparent polycarbonate siding.

More house insulation and airtightness could help as well.

Nick

In our area the ground loop adds about $3,000.00 per ton to the
installed price of a heat pump. You will need to size the WS HP for
heating load, OR size it for cooling load and add backup heat for the
difference between the house heat load and WSHP heating capacity. If
humidity is not a problem in the summer, sizing for heat load will give
highest insatallation cost and lowest winter operation cost. If
humidity IS a problem, Size for cooling load; lowest installation cost
and lowest summer operation cost, but higher winter operation cost.

Water Furnace has an excellent reputation. I don't know the other
brand.

Get a load calculation done. See if your power has a rebate program.
They might do the load calculation free, ours does.

Stretch

Tony Karp tkarp AT tlc DASH systems DOT com wrote:

Geothermal estimate was high 30s. Way too high for a house like this one.

We will probably be replacing the A/C in the next year or so, and I'll look at
one with a heat pump then

In the meantime, we'll be looking at ways to make the house energy efficient.
Last year, we replaced the windows. This year, we're replacing the front door
(it's very thin) and adding insulation above the house.

I was thinking also of adding a ridge vent above the house. We already have
gable vents with a fan, but that doesn't seem to do much.


We're going to be getting some estimates for geothermal for our house and I
wondered if anyone here could give an estimate I could use for reference
against the quotes I'll be getting. Here's our info:

Location: Northern Virginia, just north of Manassas, about 30 miles west of DC.

Heat range: As low as 6 deg in winter, to about 95 in summer.

House: Two story colonial with about 2400 sq ft. No basement, just a crawl
space.

Current hvac: Central heating/cooling. Fairly new oil furnace (Armstrong Air
Ultra 80) and aging Ruud A/C.

We don't use the A/C that much, because we have installed fans in the kitchen,
bedroom, etc. We keep the house at about 70 deg in the winter.

Last heating season, we used about 900 gallons of oil (it was colder than
normal).

We have an acre and a half, so there's plenty of room to drill or trench.

Local dealers sell Waterfurnace and Econar.

Our main motivation is the price of heating oil contracts which went from
$1.25/gallon last year to $2.00 for this year. Probably be $3/gallon next year.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or rough guesses about what it would cost to switch
to geothermal.


--
Tony Karp, TLC Systems Corp
Techno-Impressionist Museum: http://www.techno-impressionist.com
TLC Systems: http://www.tlc-systems.com

Tony Karp tkarp AT tlc DASH systems DOT com wrote:

Geothermal estimate was high 30s. Way too high for a house like this one.

We will probably be replacing the A/C in the next year or so, and I'll look at
one with a heat pump then

In the meantime, we'll be looking at ways to make the house energy efficient.
Last year, we replaced the windows. This year, we're replacing the front door
(it's very thin) and adding insulation above the house.

I was thinking also of adding a ridge vent above the house. We already have
gable vents with a fan, but that doesn't seem to do much.


We're going to be getting some estimates for geothermal for our house and I
wondered if anyone here could give an estimate I could use for reference
against the quotes I'll be getting. Here's our info:

Location: Northern Virginia, just north of Manassas, about 30 miles west of DC.

Heat range: As low as 6 deg in winter, to about 95 in summer.

House: Two story colonial with about 2400 sq ft. No basement, just a crawl
space.

Current hvac: Central heating/cooling. Fairly new oil furnace (Armstrong Air
Ultra 80) and aging Ruud A/C.

We don't use the A/C that much, because we have installed fans in the kitchen,
bedroom, etc. We keep the house at about 70 deg in the winter.

Last heating season, we used about 900 gallons of oil (it was colder than
normal).

We have an acre and a half, so there's plenty of room to drill or trench.

Local dealers sell Waterfurnace and Econar.

Our main motivation is the price of heating oil contracts which went from
$1.25/gallon last year to $2.00 for this year. Probably be $3/gallon next year.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or rough guesses about what it would cost to switch
to geothermal.


--
Tony Karp, TLC Systems Corp
Techno-Impressionist Museum: http://www.techno-impressionist.com
TLC Systems: http://www.tlc-systems.com

Tony Karp wrote:

Tony Karp tkarp AT tlc DASH systems DOT com wrote:

Geothermal estimate was high 30s. Way too high for a house like this one.

WHY??? What was the estimate for the conventional system? Something
doesn't sound right at all.

We did a Water Furnace retrofit (trench) into a ranch w/ full finished
basement of roughly same size (actually about 3200 sq-ft total) for
roughly $5k over conventional in Eastern TN--not much different
climatically than your area, either.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Tony Karp wrote:

Tony Karp tkarp AT tlc DASH systems DOT com wrote:

Geothermal estimate was high 30s. Way too high for a house like this one.

WHY??? What was the estimate for the conventional system? Something
doesn't sound right at all.

We did a Water Furnace retrofit (trench) into a ranch w/ full finished
basement of roughly same size (actually about 3200 sq-ft total) for
roughly $5k over conventional in Eastern TN--not much different
climatically than your area, either.

One of my customers wanted one and my company does not install geothermal
units. She had a 2 1/2 ton system put in for just under $11K. Don't know if
that is a good price or not.......

That was why I posted the specs for our house here and asked for a guesstimate.

The high 30's was an over-the-phone estimate from a local contractor, given the
same info I originally posted here.

They said I would probably need a four ton unit.

We have an oil furnace, but that would be have to be replaced with an electric
furnace for supplementing the geothermal. We went down to almost zero last
winter.

Duane Bozarth wrote:

Tony Karp wrote:

Tony Karp tkarp AT tlc DASH systems DOT com wrote:

Geothermal estimate was high 30s. Way too high for a house like this one.

WHY??? What was the estimate for the conventional system? Something
doesn't sound right at all.

We did a Water Furnace retrofit (trench) into a ranch w/ full finished
basement of roughly same size (actually about 3200 sq-ft total) for
roughly $5k over conventional in Eastern TN--not much different
climatically than your area, either.


--
Tony Karp, TLC Systems Corp
Techno-Impressionist Museum: http://www.techno-impressionist.com
TLC Systems: http://www.tlc-systems.com

Tony Karp wrote:

That was why I posted the specs for our house here and asked for a guesstimate.

The high 30's was an over-the-phone estimate from a local contractor, given the
same info I originally posted here.

They said I would probably need a four ton unit.

We have an oil furnace, but that would be have to be replaced with an electric
furnace for supplementing the geothermal. We went down to almost zero last
winter.

....

An "electric furnace" other than some (standard) resistance "emergency
heat" resistance elements shouldn't be necessary at all if you have
sufficient ground loop capacity--and if you don't have sufficient ground
loop capacity you don't have a geothermal system. It got to -22F one
morning in Knoxville and the backup heaters only ran for a short time at
that. Our installation had an outside thermocouple set up to keep the
resistance heaters off until air temps were below 20F -- never felt a
need to raise that setpoint.

You need an onsite sizing calculation and evaluation for loop
placement/installation by a competent Water Furnace
distributor/installer. I'm guessing it will cost from $5k to $10k more
than a high SEER good quality air exchange system, but ime the operating
costs will compensate for a great deal of that and the comfort factor of
the higher quality heat relative to the air exchange unit will make you
relish it. Plus, the lack of noisy air exchanger outside for the air
conditioning unit is another plus....

I think we will try again next year.

Right now, we have a full list of repairs/improvements: Replacing screened
porch and patio, tightening up house, adding new insulation, extending the
heating/AC into other parts of the house, etc, etc.

I was surprised by the high over-the-phone estimate we got, and there may have
been a misunderstanding. Next time, I'll have them come out to the house and
take measurements.

--

Duane Bozarth wrote:
An "electric furnace" other than some (standard) resistance "emergency
heat" resistance elements shouldn't be necessary at all if you have
sufficient ground loop capacity--and if you don't have sufficient ground
loop capacity you don't have a geothermal system. It got to -22F one
morning in Knoxville and the backup heaters only ran for a short time at
that. Our installation had an outside thermocouple set up to keep the
resistance heaters off until air temps were below 20F -- never felt a
need to raise that setpoint.

You need an onsite sizing calculation and evaluation for loop
placement/installation by a competent Water Furnace
distributor/installer. I'm guessing it will cost from $5k to $10k more
than a high SEER good quality air exchange system, but ime the operating
costs will compensate for a great deal of that and the comfort factor of
the higher quality heat relative to the air exchange unit will make you
relish it. Plus, the lack of noisy air exchanger outside for the air
conditioning unit is another plus....


--
Tony Karp, TLC Systems Corp
Techno-Impressionist Museum: http://www.techno-impressionist.com
TLC Systems: http://www.tlc-systems.com

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Tony Karp wrote:

That was why I posted the specs for our house here and asked for a
guesstimate.

The high 30's was an over-the-phone estimate from a local contractor,
given the
same info I originally posted here.

They said I would probably need a four ton unit.

We have an oil furnace, but that would be have to be replaced with an
electric
furnace for supplementing the geothermal. We went down to almost zero
last
winter.

...

An "electric furnace" other than some (standard) resistance "emergency
heat" resistance elements shouldn't be necessary at all if you have
sufficient ground loop capacity--and if you don't have sufficient ground
loop capacity you don't have a geothermal system. It got to -22F one
morning in Knoxville and the backup heaters only ran for a short time at
that. Our installation had an outside thermocouple set up to keep the
resistance heaters off until air temps were below 20F -- never felt a
need to raise that setpoint.

Duane, when I took a geo class, I found out all Geo units come (fairly)
standard with resistance heat back-up. I didn't think much of it at the
time, but what would happen if you blew a compressor (or a similar problem)
during the winter. Heat is a necessity, AC is a luxury(or so they say).


You need an onsite sizing calculation and evaluation for loop
placement/installation by a competent Water Furnace
distributor/installer. I'm guessing it will cost from $5k to $10k more
than a high SEER good quality air exchange system, but ime the operating
costs will compensate for a great deal of that and the comfort factor of
the higher quality heat relative to the air exchange unit will make you
relish it. Plus, the lack of noisy air exchanger outside for the air
conditioning unit is another plus....

HeatMan wrote:

....
An "electric furnace" other than some (standard) resistance "emergency
heat" resistance elements shouldn't be necessary at all if you have
....

Duane, when I took a geo class, I found out all Geo units come (fairly)
standard with resistance heat back-up. I didn't think much of it at the
time, but what would happen if you blew a compressor (or a similar problem)
during the winter. Heat is a necessity, AC is a luxury(or so they say).

What about "some (standard) resistance "emergency heat" resistance
elements" was unclear in my previous post????

If the unit isn't working, yes, the resistance heating elements will
come on--what I was pointing out is that there should have been nothing
about an alternate electric furnace in the cost proposal as was
apparently told to the OP. The geothermal heat source/sink should be
adequate for normal heating/cooling source/sink for something like 95%
so the "emergency" elements are simply that. If the system is sized
such that they are required for a significant fraction of the heating
period, the system is too small and will not be cost-effective. As
for the "necessity" argument, if your gas furnace blower were to fail or
you were to lose electric service when it were cold you could easily be
w/o heat, too.

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
HeatMan wrote:

...
An "electric furnace" other than some (standard) resistance "emergency
heat" resistance elements shouldn't be necessary at all if you have
...

Duane, when I took a geo class, I found out all Geo units come (fairly)
standard with resistance heat back-up. I didn't think much of it at the
time, but what would happen if you blew a compressor (or a similar
problem)
during the winter. Heat is a necessity, AC is a luxury(or so they say).

What about "some (standard) resistance "emergency heat" resistance
elements" was unclear in my previous post????

If the unit isn't working, yes, the resistance heating elements will
come on--what I was pointing out is that there should have been nothing
about an alternate electric furnace in the cost proposal as was
apparently told to the OP. The geothermal heat source/sink should be
adequate for normal heating/cooling source/sink for something like 95%
so the "emergency" elements are simply that. If the system is sized
such that they are required for a significant fraction of the heating
period, the system is too small and will not be cost-effective. As
for the "necessity" argument, if your gas furnace blower were to fail or
you were to lose electric service when it were cold you could easily be
w/o heat, too.

yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.....

HeatMan wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
HeatMan wrote:

...
An "electric furnace" other than some (standard) resistance "emergency
heat" resistance elements shouldn't be necessary at all if you have
...

Duane, when I took a geo class, I found out all Geo units come (fairly)
standard with resistance heat back-up. I didn't think much of it at the
time, but what would happen if you blew a compressor (or a similar
problem)
during the winter. Heat is a necessity, AC is a luxury(or so they say).

What about "some (standard) resistance "emergency heat" resistance
elements" was unclear in my previous post????

If the unit isn't working, yes, the resistance heating elements will
come on--what I was pointing out is that there should have been nothing
about an alternate electric furnace in the cost proposal as was
apparently told to the OP. The geothermal heat source/sink should be
adequate for normal heating/cooling source/sink for something like 95%
so the "emergency" elements are simply that. If the system is sized
such that they are required for a significant fraction of the heating
period, the system is too small and will not be cost-effective. As
for the "necessity" argument, if your gas furnace blower were to fail or
you were to lose electric service when it were cold you could easily be
w/o heat, too.

yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.....

????????