"
The knick knacks people (many immigrants) bring over such as cake
mixers, juicers, entertainment systems (TVs, VCRs, stereo equipment

) ,

If you're trying to use a foreign TV or VCR in the US, the voltage
issue is the least of your problems...

Greetings,

I prefer to view videos originally shot in PAL video in PAL format.
The NTSC disc would involve both frame-rate conversion and a slight
lowering of picture resolution. It isn't a problem -- it's a better
product.

Hope this helps,
William

PS: Would you throw out all your home videos if you moved abroad?

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
. ..
All you need to do is to buy a 240V breaker for the main breaker box
and wire it to your outlet receptacle. You can do that yourself. ...

I have a feeling that anyone who does not know who to call is not going
to be qualified to DIY even with a book.

Ya gotta start somewhere gents. In fact I've learned to do many DIY things,
and have even gone on to do them professionally. However, since I'm having
this addition built by a builder, I won't bother to learn more than I need
to know to make sure the job is done right.

wrote in message
oups.com...


I think this is a classic. The OP didn't even know that he already has
240V at the electric panel,

I did know that of course. I do have a clothes dryer plugged (and hey, at
least I installed the 240v cord on that one!) I wasn't clear in my original
question, and anyway I like things explained like I'm a total beginner even
if I know 50% of the answer already. What I'm ultimately looking for here
is not necessarily 240v - actually I'd like to avoid 240v if possible. I'm
looking for a balanced line. Now I know the line at the pole is 240v
balanced. What I didn't know is if the line at the house was the same, but
I assumed it was. I wasn't sure if I was going to have to make a request to
the electric company to get that balanced power directly. So if anyone
could tell me the easiest way to get a balanced line, even if I have to step
down the 240 to 12)?

jeffc wrote:
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
. ..
All you need to do is to buy a 240V breaker for the main breaker box
and wire it to your outlet receptacle. You can do that yourself.
...

I have a feeling that anyone who does not know who to call is not
going to be qualified to DIY even with a book.

Ya gotta start somewhere gents. In fact I've learned to do many DIY
things, and have even gone on to do them professionally. However,
since I'm having this addition built by a builder, I won't bother to
learn more than I need to know to make sure the job is done right.

Jeff, this was in no way intended as a lack of respect for you.

It was intended to indicate that "All you need to do is.." may not be
sufficient instructions for someone who may not understand enough to fill in
the parts that were not listed. Handling electricity and wiring can be
dangerous, if not done right. Even if it is done in a way that would
logically seem safe, it might not be according to code and if the next
person working on it does not know that, they could be injured making an
assumption (which of course they should never do).

I do suggest that if you want to take on this job and make any changes
to your wiring, that you consider beginning with a good book on wiring.
Even if we were to give you step by step instructions for a normal
situation, there is always that chance that you are up against something not
according to code (see paragraph above) and that could get you killed. The
full book better covers those things and other unexpected things that you
don't see yet.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

" wrote in message
ups.com...
"Doug Miller" wrote in message

.com...
In article ,
wrote:

Hey guys. Go to your kitchen duplex outlet with a multimeter set
to
measure VAC. Measure across the top and bottom small slots on
the
right hand side. It should read 240 Vac thereabouts.

Not in most installations in the United States, it won't. You'll
see
ZERO

.

Yes, and when you DO see 240 volts, in most cases there would be a
red
wire...

I don't know why he thinks all receptacles are split wired

Greetings Rick,

While I have never seen a non-switched split-wired kitchen
receptacle
within the US I understand that they are the norm in Canada. In
Canada
the kitchen receptacles would use a 240V breaker and therefore one
would be on Pole A and the other on Pole B.

They're out there in the US, too-guess it depends on the electricians
and inspectors preference. Of course they have to be on opposite
poles.


What PaPaPeng suggests is not too far out of the question under
these
circumstances. PaPaPeng simply didn't know the circumstances so he
made some up. He went a little too far filling in the blanks and he
overgeneralized wiring based on his one reference implimentation.

Like just disconnecting the neutral and taping it up? Fine, if there
are no recepticals downstream...

Making up circumstances is not the best thing to do when offering
advice on electrical wiring to someone who doens't have basic
skills...



To be very clear I am NOT saying that PaPaPeng suggestion is the way
to
go -- only that it isn't the product of a raving lunatic's mind and
could almost work under special circumstances likely NOT what the OP
will encounter in his home.

The OP is probably not in Canada and PaPaPeng does not appear to
have
all the information but what he suggests is not too far out of the
question under these circumstances.

Hope this helps,
William

jeffc wrote:
"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...

I have a feeling you have a 240V appliance from a 240V system country
that is too pricey to throw out. If it is only a single 240 consumer
appliance that doesn't draw too much power its a lot easier just to
buy a 115V to 240V step up transformer


Actually the situation is the opposite. I want a balanced line for my
pretentious, snobbis audiophile dedicated sound room. But I'm really not
keen on buying amplifiers specially keyed for this puropse, although they do
sell them. What I'd prefer is to have the balanced line, but to use it with
regular 120v audio gear. What I might actually want is a step *down*
transformer. What do you think?


Jeff,

You only need a isolation transformer, I think. Try Hammond Power Solutions.

Jake

In article . com, " wrote:

What PaPaPeng suggests is not too far out of the question under these
circumstances.

Yes, it is. As I noted in another post, it's dangerous, it violates Code, and
there's a coin-toss probability that it won't work anyway.

PaPaPeng simply didn't know the circumstances so he
made some up.

Yeah, that's always a good idea when giving electrical advice...

He went a little too far filling in the blanks and he
overgeneralized wiring based on his one reference implimentation.

Somewhat of an understatement. :-)

To be very clear I am NOT saying that PaPaPeng suggestion is the way to
go -- only that it isn't the product of a raving lunatic's mind

Perhaps not, but it certainly *is* the product of someone who doesn't know
what he's talking about.

could almost work under special circumstances likely NOT what the OP
will encounter in his home.

So why are you defending it?
The OP is probably not in Canada and PaPaPeng does not appear to have
all the information but what he suggests is not too far out of the
question under these circumstances.

Yes, it is "too far out of the question." It absolutely *is* a Code
violation. It absolutely *is* dangerous. It absolutely has only a 50%
probability of working at all IF the wiring is as he suggests - which, in the
US, is vanishingly unlikely.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 13:25:55 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

The probability is exactly 50% that any two random 120V circuits will be on
the *same* leg of the 240V service. Thus, there's a 50% probability that there
is ZERO potential between the two hot wires, and the outlet won't work at all.

The main power supply that goes into you breaker box is 240 Vac. The
cable has four conductors - black, red, white and ground. The black
and the red conductors are each connected to its own common bar that
you insert your breakers to. The two banks of breakers correspond to
the two bars. Each bar measures 115V against the common neutral
(white). If you measure across the two bars (Black and Red) you will
get 240 Vac.

But you specifically referred to two black wires and two neutrals, which means
two separate 120V circuits - not a multiwire 240V circuit.

[snip irrelevantia]

Only KITCHEN receptacles are connected to a paired 115 V breaker in
the breaker box. The paired breaker straddles the two bars on the
breaker box. If you measure the voltage across the wire that comes
out each breaker you should get 240 V. Therefore you can rewire a
KITCHEN outlet to give 240 V.

Kitchen receptacles are not necessarily wired that way.

And there's still the problem that you've disconnected the neutrals from any
downstream outlets.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Yes, it is "too far out of the question." It absolutely *is* a Code
violation. It absolutely *is* dangerous. It absolutely has only a 50%
probability of working at all IF the wiring is as he suggests - which, in the
US, is vanishingly unlikely.


Doug, what you say and have said numerous times in this thread is
absolutely correct. I admire you for hanging on this long without giving up.

Sometimes, though, people are always gonna try and take the easy way out.

For the OP, the responders and whoever else is still watching this
thread... Doug, and several other posters, have told you what was
suggested is wrong, dangerous, and frankly, stupid.

.... as is giving electrical advice when you don't know all the particulars.

Take it from a electrical contractor that is sometimes called upon to
help investigate the causes of electrical fires: This could easily cause
a fire or get somebody electrocuted.

Good Luck, Doug (-;.

Jake

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "toller" wrote:

And so is toller. If he doesn't know that one leg of 120 is neutral then
he should go learn something about electrical wiring before posting his
opinions.


First, look "neutral" up in the dictionary.
Second, drop dead you dumb POS.


s******

*You* wrote that most 240V circuits *do* have neutrals, and 120V circuits
*don't*.

So who's the "dumb POS" ?


I think technically a neutral carries the unbalanced current of 2
conductors that are out of phase. Then 120V ckts don't have a neutral
(it is the grounded conductor) and 240V ckts may. I don't think the NEC
uses the term "neutral".

However "neutral" is commonly used to refer to the "grounded conductor".

This is not intended to place value on the advice of the posters.

Bud--

"Bud" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "toller"
wrote:

And so is toller. If he doesn't know that one leg of 120 is neutral
then
he should go learn something about electrical wiring before posting his
opinions.


First, look "neutral" up in the dictionary.
Second, drop dead you dumb POS.


s******

*You* wrote that most 240V circuits *do* have neutrals, and 120V
circuits
*don't*.

So who's the "dumb POS" ?


I think technically a neutral carries the unbalanced current of 2
conductors that are out of phase. Then 120V ckts don't have a neutral
(it is the grounded conductor) and 240V ckts may.

Oooo! Someone who knows what they are talking about! (well almost, except
for that "out of phase" bit) A true rarity here.

According to Joseph Meehan :
Which may be protected by two independent breakers, meaning one side may
stay hot when the other has been tripped which is a really big NO NO.

Kitchen splits in Canada have always required tiebarred breakers.
I'm not sure about kitchen splits in the US. They existed, but I don't
know of the codes then.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to John Smith :

"Bud" wrote in message
...

I think technically a neutral carries the unbalanced current of 2
conductors that are out of phase. Then 120V ckts don't have a neutral
(it is the grounded conductor) and 240V ckts may.

Oooo! Someone who knows what they are talking about! (well almost, except
for that "out of phase" bit) A true rarity here.

"Out of phase" is the correct terminology here. The two legs of a 240V
circuit _are_ out of phase with each other. If they were in-phase with
each other, the voltage between the two would be zero.

This has NO relation to 2 (or 3) phase wiring. A multiwire branch
is NOT a 2 phase circuit.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to jeffc :

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...

I have a feeling you have a 240V appliance from a 240V system country
that is too pricey to throw out. If it is only a single 240 consumer
appliance that doesn't draw too much power its a lot easier just to
buy a 115V to 240V step up transformer

Actually the situation is the opposite. I want a balanced line for my
pretentious, snobbis audiophile dedicated sound room. But I'm really not
keen on buying amplifiers specially keyed for this puropse, although they do
sell them. What I'd prefer is to have the balanced line, but to use it with
regular 120v audio gear. What I might actually want is a step *down*
transformer. What do you think?

You could get a 240V to 120V step-down transformer and run it that way.

But a 120V isolation transformer would probably be cheaper. While it'd
be balanced in a sense, the real problem is that both lines are now
"floating" (no ground reference). Which can lead to its own noise
problems. So, you buy a 120V isolation with a center tap on the
secondary, and ground that. Properly balanced.

[Don't try this with some tube gear!]

But frankly, you'd be better off with line filters.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

) said...

While I have never seen a non-switched split-wired kitchen receptacle
within the US I understand that they are the norm in Canada. In Canada
the kitchen receptacles would use a 240V breaker and therefore one
would be on Pole A and the other on Pole B.

Split outlets were the only way to go in kitchens in Canada until the
recent code update in 2003. Now a 20A circuit can power a non-split
T-slot outlet in place of a 15A split circuit.

This change was put in place to support another change in the code that
came into effect Jan 1, 2004: kitchen counter outlets within 1 metre of
a sink must now be GFCI protected. Since split GFCI outlets are very
hard to find (does anyone even make them??!) and 2-pole GFCI breakers
are somewhat expensive, the 20A/T-slot solution was adopted.

The OP is probably not in Canada and PaPaPeng does not appear to have
all the information but what he suggests is not too far out of the
question under these circumstances.

Though it was not too far out, it was not very practical.

I saw a few posts that qualified the suggestion with making sure there
were no other outlets, particuarly downstream, on the circuit. This would
not be too much of an issue with the circuit for kitchen split outlets as
the Canadian code here dictates that no more than two outlets may be on
the same circuit, and then they must not be consecutive along the
countertop (wheelchair-accessible outlets notwithstanding).

However, to suggest that such a circuit could be taken away for another
use is not likely a feasable option as the code probably requires all
the outlets that exist already.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

Joseph Meehan wrote:
jeffc wrote:

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
m...

All you need to do is to buy a 240V breaker for the main breaker box
and wire it to your outlet receptacle. You can do that yourself.
...

I have a feeling that anyone who does not know who to call is not
going to be qualified to DIY even with a book.

Ya gotta start somewhere gents. In fact I've learned to do many DIY
things, and have even gone on to do them professionally. However,
since I'm having this addition built by a builder, I won't bother to
learn more than I need to know to make sure the job is done right.


Jeff, this was in no way intended as a lack of respect for you.

It was intended to indicate that "All you need to do is.." may not be
sufficient instructions for someone who may not understand enough to fill in
the parts that were not listed. Handling electricity and wiring can be
dangerous, if not done right. Even if it is done in a way that would
logically seem safe, it might not be according to code and if the next
person working on it does not know that, they could be injured making an
assumption (which of course they should never do).

I do suggest that if you want to take on this job and make any changes
to your wiring, that you consider beginning with a good book on wiring.
Even if we were to give you step by step instructions for a normal
situation, there is always that chance that you are up against something not
according to code (see paragraph above) and that could get you killed. The
full book better covers those things and other unexpected things that you
don't see yet.


Yep, I think there needs to be sufficient respect shown to the job
itself. Im an electrical engineer, and I just did lots of wiring on my
mothers house. 120V aint too bad. Overall the danger in installing
120V and 240V is equal. Bad install means hazard for the person living
at the residence.

But to the installer 240V means much more danger to himself. Being able
to issue a few expletives is a luxury of still being alive...

As an EE I know how electricity works, but that does not mean I know
anything about the safety standards electricians have developed over the
years. I even read the DIY book in the store. Looks so simple.

But I have a wife and son, and I refuse to touch 240V. Fear is good.

As for assumptions. I recall one day turning off the circuit breaker in
the breaker box, then proceeding to install a new outlet/switch at my
mothers other house. I got a nasty shock. My mom laughed and said
something about my father's wiring the house. Even professionals can
make mistakes.



--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door() into
the sheepfold{}, but climbeth up some other *way, the same is a thief
and a robber."

GnuPG Key Fingerprint:
82A6 8893 C2A1 F64E A9AD 19AE 55B2 4CD7 80D2 0A2D

For a free Java interface to Freechess.org see
http://www.rigidsoftware.com/Chess/chess.html

CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:

As for assumptions. I recall one day turning off the circuit breaker
in the breaker box, then proceeding to install a new outlet/switch at
my mothers other house. I got a nasty shock. My mom laughed and said
something about my father's wiring the house. Even professionals can
make mistakes.

I agree with what you wrote. I will add one time I was replacing a hall
light. I turned the light on and when down to the basement to unscrew the
fuse I thought was it. No luck, on the second try I came back up and the
light was out so I went to work. After loosening everything I was pulling
the fixture down when I was suddenly showered in sparks. As it turns out
the lamp had burned out while I was loosening that second fuse. It was yet
another circuit. Needless to say, I was lucky and pulled both mains (it was
a duplex with two entries) before continuing.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert" wrote in message
...

I do suggest that if you want to take on this job and make any
changes to your wiring, that you consider beginning with a good book on
wiring.

That is of course what I'd do, but I'll be hiring someone to do this one :-)

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
.. .

I agree with what you wrote. I will add one time I was replacing a
hall light. I turned the light on and when down to the basement to
unscrew the fuse I thought was it. No luck, on the second try I came back
up and the light was out so I went to work.

Not directed at you as you already know, but I would not recommend doing any
work on wires unless you have a multimeter to test the actual circuit with.
You should first, of course, ensure that the multimeter is working correctly
and you're using it correctly.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

You could get a 240V to 120V step-down transformer and run it that way.

But a 120V isolation transformer would probably be cheaper. While it'd
be balanced in a sense, the real problem is that both lines are now
"floating" (no ground reference). Which can lead to its own noise
problems.

Even if all the gear being used is run on that same circuit? I would think
there would be no grounding and thus no potential ground loop.

According to jeffc :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

You could get a 240V to 120V step-down transformer and run it that way.

But a 120V isolation transformer would probably be cheaper. While it'd
be balanced in a sense, the real problem is that both lines are now
"floating" (no ground reference). Which can lead to its own noise
problems.

Even if all the gear being used is run on that same circuit? I would think
there would be no grounding and thus no potential ground loop.

There's more to noise than ground loops. An entirely floating AC loop is more
likely to pick up and induce RF noise into a power supply, for example.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.