We've added a screened porch to our deck on the back of the house. Would
this typically be considered an outside or inside environment for
electrical? Should conduit be used to wire an outlet and ceiling fan
circuit?

Thanks,
Tom

"Tom" wrote in message
news
We've added a screened porch to our deck on the back of the house. Would
this typically be considered an outside or inside environment for
electrical? Should conduit be used to wire an outlet and ceiling fan
circuit?

Thanks,
Tom

Screened = open

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"Tom" wrote in message
news
We've added a screened porch to our deck on the back of the house.
Would
this typically be considered an outside or inside environment for
electrical? Should conduit be used to wire an outlet and ceiling fan
circuit?

Thanks,
Tom

Screened = open

Don't know what code says, but from a practical aspect, I'd treat any
non-heated and/or humid space as 'outside', fully enclosed or not. Seen
enough rusted fittings and connections even in unheated attached garages.
Condensation is a bitch, even if mother nature can't rain on it directly.
Conduit and weather-rated fixtures are cheaper than redoing the work a few
years down the line. Just IMHO, of course, YMMV.

aem sends...

In article , wrote:

Conduit would be good, but if you want to avoid using it, use UF
cable. The stuff made for underground.

Careful...

"Type UF cable shall not be used ... where exposed to direct rays of the sun,
unless identified as sunlight-resistant." [NEC, Art. 339-3(b)]




--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

I think that the National Electrical Code would define this as a "Damp"
location and should be wired using materials approved for that environment.
The ceiling fan would need to be approved for damp locations and the
receptacle should be GFCI protected.

You can use metal or PVC conduit, Type NMC cable, Type MC cable, and Type UF
cable.

John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"Tom" wrote in message
news
We've added a screened porch to our deck on the back of the house. Would
this typically be considered an outside or inside environment for
electrical? Should conduit be used to wire an outlet and ceiling fan
circuit?

Thanks,
Tom

According to John Grabowski :
I think that the National Electrical Code would define this as a "Damp"
location and should be wired using materials approved for that environment.
The ceiling fan would need to be approved for damp locations and the
receptacle should be GFCI protected.

You can use metal or PVC conduit, Type NMC cable, Type MC cable, and Type UF
cable.

It's been my experience (Canadian inspectors), that anything with a
real roof over it is considered "indoors", within reason, but that
may have changed since.

It used to be, and may still be, for example, that outdoor outlets
didn't have to be GFCI if they were on a deck, with more than 8'
between them and an unobstructed path to the dirt. You don't
need conduit, wiring still has to comply with indoor rules for
protection.

Given our wiring code, everything assumes "damp" (we're not allowed
to use ordinary NM, everything's NMD or better), so classifying it
as a "damp location" would make no difference.

But it doesn't hurt to go further than the minimum. I wouldn't
conduit in-wall or in-roof wiring. Wiring physically exposed
on walls, underside of ceiling, or exposed to the sun in any way,
would be PVC conduit. I'd use weatherproof boxes and GFCIs, 8'
path to dirt or not.

I'd be very hesitant about installing a ceiling fan. Corrosion
issues. Unless, perhaps, under a very large roof, recessed above
the eaves.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Okay, treating the porch as outside with PVC conduit seems like the safest
approach. I really want a ceiling fan and in my installation it will be
well protected from the elements and tucked into the rafters of a shingled
roof.

Here's another issue I'd appreaciate help with. The obvious way to get
power into the porch is to punch through the stucco and tap into an outlet
on an inside wall. There isn't much on this circuit and every other route I
can think of would require a lot of creative carpentry. The problem is that
this is a very old house and there is no ground on this circuit. What is
the proper way to establish a ground for this circuit? Re-wiring the whole
circuit is very impractical. Can I ground to a water pipe? Can I run a
ground wire along the outside of the house to the service ground? Would the
ground fault interrupter eliminate the need for a ground?

Thanks,
Tom

"Tom" wrote in message
news
We've added a screened porch to our deck on the back of the house. Would
this typically be considered an outside or inside environment for
electrical? Should conduit be used to wire an outlet and ceiling fan
circuit?

Thanks,
Tom

"Easiest way to ground a computer?" was discussed in the
newsgroup alt.home.repair in the week after 5 May 2005.
Grounding, GFCI, and other solutions as discussed there
answers your questions. Answered there (and in other places)
is why/where grounding to pipes is illegal; but worse, not
desirable.

BTW, I recall the code demands specific wall receptacles be
included in a porch and in the ground beneath that porch
area. Numerous conditions on that requirement which I will
not relate because I may not relate all the numbers correctly
from memory.

Tom wrote:
Okay, treating the porch as outside with PVC conduit seems like the
safest approach. I really want a ceiling fan and in my installation
it will be well protected from the elements and tucked into the
rafters of a shingled roof.

Here's another issue I'd appreaciate help with. The obvious way to
get power into the porch is to punch through the stucco and tap
into an outlet on an inside wall. There isn't much on this circuit
and every other route I can think of would require a lot of
creative carpentry. The problem is that this is a very old house
and there is no ground on this circuit. What is the proper way to
establish a ground for this circuit? Re-wiring the whole circuit
is very impractical. Can I ground to a water pipe? Can I run a
ground wire along the outside of the house to the service ground?
Would the ground fault interrupter eliminate the need for a ground?

In article , "Tom" wrote:

Here's another issue I'd appreaciate help with. The obvious way to get
power into the porch is to punch through the stucco and tap into an outlet
on an inside wall. There isn't much on this circuit and every other route I
can think of would require a lot of creative carpentry.

OK so far...

The problem is that
this is a very old house and there is no ground on this circuit. What is
the proper way to establish a ground for this circuit?

Install a ground-fault circuit interrupter. You won't have a ground, but you
*will* be protected against ground faults. The GFCI will include several
stickers that say "No Equipment Ground" - place these stickers on every outlet
that is protected by that GFCI.

Re-wiring the whole
circuit is very impractical. Can I ground to a water pipe?

No. Illegal and dangerous. If a ground fault should occur, that would
electrify the water pipe.

Can I run a
ground wire along the outside of the house to the service ground?

No. Code requires that all conductors for any circuit be in the same cable,
raceway, conduit, etc.

Would the ground fault interrupter eliminate the need for a ground?

Yes.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Tom wrote:
Okay, treating the porch as outside with PVC conduit seems like the safest
approach. I really want a ceiling fan and in my installation it will be
well protected from the elements and tucked into the rafters of a shingled
roof.

Here's another issue I'd appreaciate help with. The obvious way to get
power into the porch is to punch through the stucco and tap into an outlet
on an inside wall. There isn't much on this circuit and every other route I
can think of would require a lot of creative carpentry. The problem is that
this is a very old house and there is no ground on this circuit. What is
the proper way to establish a ground for this circuit? Re-wiring the whole
circuit is very impractical. Can I ground to a water pipe? Can I run a
ground wire along the outside of the house to the service ground? Would the
ground fault interrupter eliminate the need for a ground?

Thanks,
Tom

"Tom" wrote in message
news
We've added a screened porch to our deck on the back of the house. Would
this typically be considered an outside or inside environment for
electrical? Should conduit be used to wire an outlet and ceiling fan
circuit?

Thanks,
Tom




You can extend the circuit. The equipment grounding conductor would be
run to any accessable point on the grounding electrode system. (The
water pipe in the house in the house is not part of the electrode system
exept for the first 5 feet where the water comes into the building
assuming the water service is metal)

The electrical code reads as follows:

250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately
derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment
grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as
indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non–grounding-type
receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit
extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment
grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be
permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).
(A) For Grounded Systems. The connection shall be made by bonding the
equipment grounding conductor to the grounded service conductor and the
grounding electrode conductor.
(B) For Ungrounded Systems. The connection shall be made by bonding the
equipment grounding conductor to the grounding electrode conductor.
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions.
The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a
branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of
the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described
in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the
branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the
service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the
service equipment enclosure
FPN: See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting
type of receptacle.

Good luck Don