"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 5/29/2011 10:03 PM, Robert Green wrote:
...

No, I beg to differ. I always feel much more comfortable encountering
service personnel and such knowing as much as I can learn elsewhere. I
believe the OP has learned a great deal from this thread and could get
to
the point where an encounter isn't even necessary. His bill probably
holds
the sad tale of a one time excursion into a higher rate zone that's cost
him
big time. I'll bet he now becomes very aggressive managing his peak
load.
...

I get no feeling OP has really learned a thing...it seems to all just
pass over as it doesn't fit into the preconceived notion.

I'd be reluctant to say that. Once a thread gets to a certain level of
"tension" it becomes more a question of ¿Quien es mas Macho?

His complaint is he has a few months w/ very high usage; not that the $
amount is high at relatively low total usage (as would be the symptom of
a demand-induced premium). I think the likelihood he actually has a
demand meter is very low.

Checking what I have for the beginning of the thread (and my newserver gets
swamped when those Teranewsians' server fails g) he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:

1) when coming up with a total current measurement, do I include the
current flowing on the neutral line?

2) He was looking how to calculate the "worst case" (all loads operating
simultaneously I assume)

3) He wanted to know if there was an error in how he intended to calculate a
maximum load.

That's at least why I recommended the Kil-O-Watt. He described a large
number of easily tested, non-hardwired loads on his premises.

I do see in reviewing the thread from top down that his 1st line reply to
RBM was:

"RBM used improper usenet message composition style by full-quoting:"

Maybe that's his newsreader automatically set to net-nanny "FULL ON" (-: So
maybe you're right, the OP has a bit to learn about not biting the hand
that's feeding him and was contributory in this interesting thread turning
slightly sour. My mistake.

From the numbers on usage he posted before, it appears to be a fairly
consistent usage w/ a couple of months extreme outliers. Both of those
are early in different years; my hypothesis is that the other months
are, for the most part, estimated rather than actually read and the one
annual blip is the catchup because they've not updated the average usage
to reflect actual since it was set up (probably before OP bought the
building).

Because I've had my own tangles with bad meters and something the phone
company called a "left on" connection (that actually turned into a national
security matter), I pay attention to news reports of billing errors. This
could just as easily be a screw-up with his electric company's billing
systems. They are forever futzing with their programs to account for new
"revenue streams" and fees and could have made any number of mistakes.
Based on the level of errors I've seen reported in DoD studies, shift
happens. A decimal point here and there, the wrong variable name, etc.

While you may be perfectly correct in why the readings show the way they do,
there are a lot of other explanations. But it terms of learning, I think we
(and perhaps he) have learned some critical things. You can't meter the
neutral of a three-phase feeder and expect to get information about total
usage, only the level of imbalance of the downstream circuits. We've
learned that it's unusual not to be able to see your meter whenever you
choose to, but apparently not universal. That's something for the OP to
work out between himself, the power company and his landlord. As nearly
everyone has said, to solve the puzzle more information is needed.

But I don't think it could ever hurt him to spend $25 on a Kil-O-Watt meter.
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage, and the KOW
will do that far better for the gear he has than any tong meter I know of.
It calculates true wattage and can measure average usage over long periods
of time. Going to the power company to investigate further knowing *exactly*
what he's got in his office will let them know that he's done his homework,
at least. That's important in dealing with them.

--
Bobby G.

"When the universe comes to destroy man, man will still be nobler than that
which tries to destroy him, because in his death man knows he is dying and
of its victory, the universe knows absolutely nothing." - Pascal

On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message ...
....

... he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:

1) when coming up with a total current measurement, do I include the
current flowing on the neutral line?

2) He was looking how to calculate the "worst case" (all loads operating
simultaneously I assume)

3) He wanted to know if there was an error in how he intended to calculate a
maximum load.

That's at least why I recommended the Kil-O-Watt. He described a large
number of easily tested, non-hardwired loads on his premises.
....
From the numbers on usage he posted before, it appears to be a fairly
consistent usage w/ a couple of months extreme outliers. Both of those
are early in different years; my hypothesis is that the other months
are, for the most part, estimated rather than actually read and the one
annual blip is the catchup because they've not updated the average usage
to reflect actual since it was set up (probably before OP bought the
building).

Because I've had my own tangles with bad meters and something the phone
company called a "left on" connection (that actually turned into a national
security matter), I pay attention to news reports of billing errors. This
could just as easily be a screw-up with his electric company's billing
systems. ...

Indeed it could...


While you may be perfectly correct in why the readings show the way they do,
there are a lot of other explanations. But it terms of learning, I think we
(and perhaps he) have learned some critical things. You can't meter the
neutral of a three-phase feeder and expect to get information about total
usage, only the level of imbalance of the downstream circuits. We've
learned that it's unusual not to be able to see your meter whenever you
choose to, but apparently not universal. That's something for the OP to
work out between himself, the power company and his landlord. As nearly
everyone has said, to solve the puzzle more information is needed.

But I don't think it could ever hurt him to spend $25 on a Kil-O-Watt meter.
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage, and the KOW
will do that far better for the gear he has than any tong meter I know of.
....

I never said (and hopefully didn't imply by poor wording) my idea was
the only possible explanation; simply a theory (apparently refuted,
eventually).

OP is the (new, but not terribly so iirc 6yr) owner of the building so
I'd presume he has some pull w/ the landlord... It would seem
anything about the lock on the cabinet/meter that he would be allowed to
do by whatever limitations placed by the utility/city could have been
resolved in that time. If the limitation is only inertia on his part,
that's another kettle...there's insufficient information to know _why_
it is currently as it is.

It's a commercial building w/ 3-phase service and the loads he mentioned
were a few computers, basically. The Kil-O-Watt meter can monitor them
but it'll do nothing for what is most likely by far the majority of the
load which will be the 3-phase lighting, possibly water heater and other
service loads. It'll be measuring the noise around the edges.

The characteristics of the peculiarities aren't likely to be explained
by a loading issue anyway imo. The doubling of the readings in months
that are roughly a year apart is just not credible as an ordinary event
of somebody left the lights on over a weekend. It's either an
accounting issue, an error in the reading or the like that is
artificially being induced somewhat like your above suggestion (or mine
of a different yet similar mechanism) or there's a _major_ intermittent
load or fault somewhere on the system.

Either of those isn't going to be found by a minimal one-time
guesstimate of the maximum possible monthly usage even if he measures an
instantaneous 3-phase usage correctly and it certainly won't be found by
poking around on one computer supply at a time.

$0.02, imo, ymmv, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
....

... he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:
....
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage,...

I did intend to indicate and give credit that he did recognize he needed
the full 3-phase usage only that it seemed as though had hard time
coping with what he proposed is too rudimentary to help much (or at all)
in resolving his problem...in that even if he knew the answer he
proposed it doesn't get anywhere at the root cause of the symptom.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
...

... he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:
...
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage,...

I did intend to indicate and give credit that he did recognize he needed
the full 3-phase usage only that it seemed as though had hard time
coping with what he proposed is too rudimentary to help much (or at all)
in resolving his problem...in that even if he knew the answer he
proposed it doesn't get anywhere at the root cause of the symptom.

Agreed. He's gonna have to call the power company, like it or not. At this
point he at least needs their interpretation of the bill. Then he can
either accept it or refute their explanation but at least he would have a
better understanding of what's (allegedly) going on.

--
Bobby G.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
...

... he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:

1) when coming up with a total current measurement, do I include the
current flowing on the neutral line?

2) He was looking how to calculate the "worst case" (all loads operating
simultaneously I assume)

3) He wanted to know if there was an error in how he intended to
calculate a
maximum load.

That's at least why I recommended the Kil-O-Watt. He described a large
number of easily tested, non-hardwired loads on his premises.
...
From the numbers on usage he posted before, it appears to be a
fairly
consistent usage w/ a couple of months extreme outliers. Both of those
are early in different years; my hypothesis is that the other months
are, for the most part, estimated rather than actually read and the one
annual blip is the catchup because they've not updated the average
usage
to reflect actual since it was set up (probably before OP bought the
building).

Because I've had my own tangles with bad meters and something the phone
company called a "left on" connection (that actually turned into a
national
security matter), I pay attention to news reports of billing errors.
This
could just as easily be a screw-up with his electric company's billing
systems. ...

Indeed it could...


While you may be perfectly correct in why the readings show the way they
do,
there are a lot of other explanations. But it terms of learning, I
think we
(and perhaps he) have learned some critical things. You can't meter the
neutral of a three-phase feeder and expect to get information about
total
usage, only the level of imbalance of the downstream circuits. We've
learned that it's unusual not to be able to see your meter whenever you
choose to, but apparently not universal. That's something for the OP to
work out between himself, the power company and his landlord. As nearly
everyone has said, to solve the puzzle more information is needed.

But I don't think it could ever hurt him to spend $25 on a Kil-O-Watt
meter.
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage, and the
KOW
will do that far better for the gear he has than any tong meter I know
of.
...

I never said (and hopefully didn't imply by poor wording) my idea was
the only possible explanation; simply a theory (apparently refuted,
eventually).

I realize that and shouldn't have made it sound otherwise. The thread took
many excursions.

OP is the (new, but not terribly so iirc 6yr) owner of the building so
I'd presume he has some pull w/ the landlord...

Yes, I began to realize how much information I had missed. It's been a
long, long time since my last reading comprehension test. I am not sure I
would match my old scores, but then again, the stakes here couldn't be
lower, so that might affect my focus. (-:

It would seem
anything about the lock on the cabinet/meter that he would be allowed to
do by whatever limitations placed by the utility/city could have been
resolved in that time. If the limitation is only inertia on his part,
that's another kettle...there's insufficient information to know _why_
it is currently as it is.

I suspect it was never a problem until it became one. Probably best to be
resolved no matter what. I'd feel uncomfortable not being able to read my
meter whenever I chose. Got an incredibly cheap CCTV cam with a long lens
to be able to read it during (most) of the day. There are times when the
glare is just too much and the IR lights from the camera simply bounce off
the glass case. I once tried one of those "mount on the meter" devices that
count the dark spot rotation and send pulses to an indoor reader/PC
interface. It worked sort of well but was "flagged" by the meter reader as
(paraphrasing) "unregistered customer device attached to meter" with a card
on the door saying it had to be removed forthwith. Apparently very strong
neodymium magnets can be used to tamper with the meters, so I read once on
the web, but I also believe the have developed anti-tampering devices to
detect the proximity of a super magnet. Probably just a tiny magnetic
sphere under a foil seal that would rip through when attracted by a strong
field. But I digress, as I sit playing with a neodymium magnet so strong
the had to ship in a box within two other boxes to avoid it "eating" its way
out of the box during transit. In addition to being a voltmeter hoarder, I
am a magnet freak.

It's a commercial building w/ 3-phase service and the loads he mentioned
were a few computers, basically.

I thought he said 15 computers. I'll have to remember to look. Yes, 15.
Touché! When I switched the 10 active PC's in the house from towers to
laptops that had aggressive power management (that actually worked) I saved
at least $300 a year. Those towers ran from 130 to 250 watts each 24x7
without the CRT monitors. The laptops? From 8 to 17 watts each with
monitors active. That's an even bigger savings than switching to CFL bulbs.

I think there's serious money to be recouped in the what might seem to be
the fringe areas but IMHO is really the battleground where serious savings
can be extracted over the long run. Most businesses I've seen are horrible
under-insulated with enormous heat losses. A handheld IR thermometer or a
rented IR thermal vision camera might help tighten those up. As a building
owner, he does get long-term payback for those sorts of improvement unlike
an ordinary tenant.

The Kil-O-Watt meter can monitor them
but it'll do nothing for what is most likely by far the majority of the
load which will be the 3-phase lighting, possibly water heater and other
service loads. It'll be measuring the noise around the edges.

I thought of it as more of an adjunct to the tong meter he already has that
can measure those loads pretty easily at the panel - normally, with normal
circuit panels that expose a single wire to a breaker that a tong meter can
encircle, that is. Who knows what's in his Caligari cabinet.

The clip-on readings combined with the KOW readings should equal his metered
load if you plug in a hidden value of how long each piece of equipment was
actually ON drawing power. But IIRC and IOD, he wanted to know the "full
on" consumption of his premises - how much the place could possible draw in
a day. The KOW and the tong meter could conceivably deliver that number
independently of a possibly defective meter.

The characteristics of the peculiarities aren't likely to be explained
by a loading issue anyway imo. The doubling of the readings in months
that are roughly a year apart is just not credible as an ordinary event
of somebody left the lights on over a weekend. It's either an
accounting issue, an error in the reading or the like that is
artificially being induced somewhat like your above suggestion (or mine
of a different yet similar mechanism) or there's a _major_ intermittent
load or fault somewhere on the system.

A couple of space heaters left on all day and night can suck up enormous
amount of power. I know employees and I've known of more than one (there
were actually quite a few, sadly) that lived for a while at work without
their bosses knowing about it. Divorce, kicked out, evicted, car repo'ed.
One guy had installed himself at a not-yet-abandoned Nike site when his wife
kicked him out. I know some small businessmen that live in their offices
when it's really, really busy and even when it's not.

Either of those isn't going to be found by a minimal one-time
guesstimate of the maximum possible monthly usage even if he measures an
instantaneous 3-phase usage correctly and it certainly won't be found by
poking around on one computer supply at a time.

$0.02, imo, ymmv, etc., etc., etc., ...

It would keep him busy. Deny *that's* a good thing. (-: Seriously,
though, there isn't any small business I couldn't save $100 a year. I'd do
it by analyzing what standby loads consume enough juice to warrant
powerstripping and/or timer or manual control. Lots of loads that don't
really need to draw current 24x7 are left on, drawing a considerable amount
of juice in the aggregate.

Without knowing one iota about how the OP uses his PC's, I can only suggest
that to some users, there are considerable power savings to be had with
aggressive power management. He indicated about a 12-15 amp standby load
when he tonged all three phases with everything except the PC's and/or the
UPS's off. That does not add up correctly at all to the usage on his bills.
Thoroughness would impress the Public Service Commission if he ever needs to
get that far to get a refund or even a full explanation.

--
Bobby G.