I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!

MOVE

"KLS" wrote in message
...
I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!

Bill wrote:
MOVE

"KLS" wrote in message
...
I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!


Check your deed- are these actually separate driveways, or a shared
driveway, with each lot having a usage easement on the neighboring lot,
to drive a car in and out? (common on old narrow urban lots.)

If actually separate driveways, is each side wide enough to use with
modern cars, or do you have to use part of each other's drive to get in
and out? IOW, do YOU need there to be a smooth joint between the
driveways? A 2-inch ridge may be plenty to solve (your half of) the
water problem, but could not be called a spite fence.

Hard to give advice without seeing it, but sounds like both drives need
to be redone, and graded properly this time. If there is slope to a low
point (preferably back to the street), one solution is a slit drain down
the property line. They sell preformed U-shaped sections that lock
together, with a lift-off cover so you can clean the leaves out. If city
will let you drain into the street, or a convenient storm sewer
collector box, that would be an ideal solution. At a minimum, your drive
should be a mirror image of theirs, slope-wise, so any ponding occurs at
the property line. You don't need much slope- 1/4 or 3/8 inch per foot.
Call it a couple inches over 8 feet.

I'll throw in- I Am Not A Lawyer, but IIRC, you could haul neighbor into
court to force them to mitigate the effects of water draining off their
property and structure. As in 'if their house wasn't there, I wouldn't
have a wet basement.' But such cases are often more trouble than they
are worth, money-wise, and you end up with a ****y neighbor staring at
you every time you open garage door.

--
aem sends...

"KLS" ...
I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!

I like aem's thought on installing a barrier between the 2 driveways to keep
their water on their side. Have your driveway be a few inches higher than
theirs. One can still drive up that lip if needed.

Another approach would be to grade your side so the water goes away from
your house toward the middle of the 2 driveways.
Tomes

KLS wrote:

I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here?

If you're in Texas, you don't have the right to correct a problem on
your property by exporting it to someone else's property. For example,
my downhill neighbor didn't like water running down the hill across my
property and onto his. He leveled his yard and built a large dam
against the fence. When it rained, his yard was OK, but mine had six
inches of water in it.

Further, state law requires the developer to submit a drainage plan for
the subdivision, and no one is allowed to change it without approval.

Do you have a lawyer friend? Take him to lunch and ask about these
issues.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 01:43:36 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

Bill wrote:
MOVE

Financially not an option right now, but a great idea nonetheless!

"KLS" wrote in message
...

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.
[details cut]
My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

Check your deed- are these actually separate driveways, or a shared
driveway, with each lot having a usage easement on the neighboring lot,
to drive a car in and out? (common on old narrow urban lots.)

They are clearly separate driveways, each side wide enough to
accommodate the neighbor's Ford F150 truck.

If actually separate driveways, is each side wide enough to use with
modern cars, or do you have to use part of each other's drive to get in
and out? IOW, do YOU need there to be a smooth joint between the
driveways? A 2-inch ridge may be plenty to solve (your half of) the
water problem, but could not be called a spite fence.

We have thought about this, and now that you mention it, I'll see
whether something like this would be a huge additional expense. I
worry whether it makes the driveway resurfacing and regrading more
complicated, though.

Hard to give advice without seeing it, but sounds like both drives need
to be redone, and graded properly this time. If there is slope to a low
point (preferably back to the street), one solution is a slit drain down
the property line. They sell preformed U-shaped sections that lock
together, with a lift-off cover so you can clean the leaves out. If city
will let you drain into the street, or a convenient storm sewer
collector box, that would be an ideal solution. At a minimum, your drive
should be a mirror image of theirs, slope-wise, so any ponding occurs at
the property line. You don't need much slope- 1/4 or 3/8 inch per foot.
Call it a couple inches over 8 feet.

This is likely more than we're willing to do. You're absolutely right
the drives should be done at the same time, and I'm really ****ed off
they won't do theirs after verbally saying they would last fall.

I'll throw in- I Am Not A Lawyer, but IIRC, you could haul neighbor into
court to force them to mitigate the effects of water draining off their
property and structure. As in 'if their house wasn't there, I wouldn't
have a wet basement.' But such cases are often more trouble than they
are worth, money-wise, and you end up with a ****y neighbor staring at
you every time you open garage door.

They're already ****y, and they're pouring money into their house, but
not the driveway, another reason I'm ****ed off. I think your 2-inch
lip idea is the best approach.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:00:38 +0000 (UTC), "SteveB"
wrote:

KLS wrote:

I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here?

If you're in Texas, you don't have the right to correct a problem on
your property by exporting it to someone else's property. For example,
my downhill neighbor didn't like water running down the hill across my
property and onto his. He leveled his yard and built a large dam
against the fence. When it rained, his yard was OK, but mine had six
inches of water in it.

Further, state law requires the developer to submit a drainage plan for
the subdivision, and no one is allowed to change it without approval.

This all makes sense, but I don't think it applies to our situation as
whatever solution we choose would be entirely within the parameters of
the project, and nothing as excessive as your neighbor's dam. We're
in New York.

In article , KLS wrote:
I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!

Install a 6 foot concrete wall lining your driveway.

greg

Bill wrote:
MOVE

Financially not an option right now, but a great idea nonetheless!


What about one of those drains that has a grid type cover? The type I have
seen at a garage apron connection.

Sounds like no matter what you do, your neighbor will complain.

Having a two inch lip at the edge will probably break up.

Good luck. So much for the saying 'good fences make good neighbors'.

On Jul 22, 7:44*pm, KLS wrote:
I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. *It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. *Both driveways slope toward our foundation. *As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. *Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: *they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. *I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. *Am I
missing something here? *I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!

Call your city , they will direct you to someone with a few ideas.

In article , KLS says...

I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!

No way to address this that fixes your issue, and at least doesnt add to runoff
(if any) toward their house, that you can do and be done with it?

Banty

In article , KLS says...

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 01:43:36 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

Bill wrote:
MOVE

Financially not an option right now, but a great idea nonetheless!

"KLS" wrote in message
...

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.
[details cut]
My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

Check your deed- are these actually separate driveways, or a shared
driveway, with each lot having a usage easement on the neighboring lot,
to drive a car in and out? (common on old narrow urban lots.)

They are clearly separate driveways, each side wide enough to
accommodate the neighbor's Ford F150 truck.

If they're separate, you might incorporate a french drain as part of your
solution?


If actually separate driveways, is each side wide enough to use with
modern cars, or do you have to use part of each other's drive to get in
and out? IOW, do YOU need there to be a smooth joint between the
driveways? A 2-inch ridge may be plenty to solve (your half of) the
water problem, but could not be called a spite fence.

We have thought about this, and now that you mention it, I'll see
whether something like this would be a huge additional expense. I
worry whether it makes the driveway resurfacing and regrading more
complicated, though.

Hard to give advice without seeing it, but sounds like both drives need
to be redone, and graded properly this time. If there is slope to a low
point (preferably back to the street), one solution is a slit drain down
the property line. They sell preformed U-shaped sections that lock
together, with a lift-off cover so you can clean the leaves out. If city
will let you drain into the street, or a convenient storm sewer
collector box, that would be an ideal solution. At a minimum, your drive
should be a mirror image of theirs, slope-wise, so any ponding occurs at
the property line. You don't need much slope- 1/4 or 3/8 inch per foot.
Call it a couple inches over 8 feet.

This is likely more than we're willing to do. You're absolutely right
the drives should be done at the same time, and I'm really ****ed off
they won't do theirs after verbally saying they would last fall.

If they're separate as you say, they don't have to be done at the same time.


I'll throw in- I Am Not A Lawyer, but IIRC, you could haul neighbor into
court to force them to mitigate the effects of water draining off their
property and structure. As in 'if their house wasn't there, I wouldn't
have a wet basement.' But such cases are often more trouble than they
are worth, money-wise, and you end up with a ****y neighbor staring at
you every time you open garage door.

They're already ****y, and they're pouring money into their house, but
not the driveway, another reason I'm ****ed off. I think your 2-inch
lip idea is the best approach.

Eh, too in-your-face, too temporary.

With these neighbors, I'd find some solution that leaves them out of it for
goodd.

Banty

In article , Banty wrote:
In article , KLS says...

I may post this over on alt.home.repair, but I'm hoping the collective
wisdom will chime in over here instead!

We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.

They are being dickheads, plain and simple, in two ways: they refuse
to participate in this project (they say they'll do their half next
year, and this is after we have already put off doing this project
from last fall when they pled poverty back then), and they are asking
us to make sure our new driveway doesn't direct water toward their
house, which I find to be richly ironic given their absent gutter lo
these recent years.

My question is how best to handle this. I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house. Am I
missing something here? I am planning to tell them that if they're so
concerned about rainwater runoff, they should install a gutter on
their house and control at least that part of it if they insist on not
cooperating with us.

All thoughts welcome; I will be checking this group for responses.
Thanks!

No way to address this that fixes your issue, and at least doesnt add to runoff
(if any) toward their house, that you can do and be done with it?

Well my 6 foot walls would work.

A 2 inch would also work.

A drain sounds like the best bet.

greg

I think you can take them to court if you can demonstrate that the rain is
indeed causing you hardship.

--
Message posted via http://www.homekb.com

On 23 Jul 2008 10:34:26 -0700, Banty wrote:

In article , KLS says...
We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.
[details cut]
No way to address this that fixes your issue, and at least doesnt add to runoff
(if any) toward their house, that you can do and be done with it?

Not easily nor without great expense to us, something I won't spend $$
on since we are not in a hot housing market.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:13:25 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

Call your city , they will direct you to someone with a few ideas.

This is a great idea that I'm going to try to do tomorrow afternoon.
Thanks for mentioning it!

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:48:02 GMT, (GregS)
wrote:

In article , Banty wrote:
In article , KLS says...
We need to resurface our driveway. It directly abuts the neighbor's
driveway. Both driveways slope toward our foundation. As I'm sure
you can imagine, the water infiltration is substantial, and I'm sick
of it. Furthermore, the neighbors don't have a gutter on their roof,
so all the rainwater from THEIR roof runs right off onto both
driveways and into our foundation.
[molto snippo]
No way to address this that fixes your issue, and at least doesnt add to runoff
(if any) toward their house, that you can do and be done with it?

Well my 6 foot walls would work.

And would be considered a spite wall, not something I want to deal
with in court, appealing though this idea is.

A 2 inch would also work.

True.

A drain sounds like the best bet.

Probably, but what ****es me off about that idea is that my drain
would take their rainwater (can you tell I'm feeling vengeful?). I
should investigate those options, too, though.

KLS wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 04:00:38 +0000 (UTC), "SteveB"
wrote:

KLS wrote:

I feel that I have no
obligation to spend extra time or money addressing the runoff issue
beyond what I need to achieve avoiding water entering my house.
Am I missing something here?

If you're in Texas, you don't have the right to correct a problem on
your property by exporting it to someone else's property. For
example, my downhill neighbor didn't like water running down the
hill across my property and onto his. He leveled his yard and built
a large dam against the fence. When it rained, his yard was OK, but
mine had six inches of water in it.

Further, state law requires the developer to submit a drainage plan
for the subdivision, and no one is allowed to change it without
approval.

This all makes sense, but I don't think it applies to our situation as
whatever solution we choose would be entirely within the parameters of
the project, and nothing as excessive as your neighbor's dam. We're
in New York.

I mentioned those issues just as incentive for you to check the
legality of whatever you finally decide to do. I'd hate to see you pay
to have it ripped out and redone. After all, you're the nice guy in
this issue.

How about changing the grade of your half of the driveway so that it
slopes toward the property line, making the property line the low spot.
Would the water will drain out to the street?

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX

A drain sounds like the best bet.

Probably, but what ****es me off about that idea is that my drain
would take their rainwater (can you tell I'm feeling vengeful?). *I
should investigate those options, too, though.

man, you need to get over that. They said the can't afford to do the
driveway now.
what part of that don't you understand? you don't want their runoff to
go into your
garage, i can see that. But you also don't want it to go into your
drain? come on.
are you trying to fix your problem, or change the laws of physics?

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:09:30 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



A drain sounds like the best bet.

Probably, but what ****es me off about that idea is that my drain
would take their rainwater (can you tell I'm feeling vengeful?). *I
should investigate those options, too, though.

man, you need to get over that. They said the can't afford to do the
driveway now.

They said last fall they'd be able to do it this year, and they're
essentially reneging on a verbal agreement, giving us the finger by
spending their money on an inground pool among other big house
projects. This driveway repaving is not a lot of money in the grand
scheme of things, and their refusal to participate in resolving a
problem they're helping to create isn't going over well, either.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:48:22 +0000 (UTC), "SteveB"
wrote:

How about changing the grade of your half of the driveway so that it
slopes toward the property line, making the property line the low spot.
Would the water will drain out to the street?

I'd like to do that, but they're telling me not to because they don't
want that water drifting toward their house, after years of us putting
up with their roof rainwater runoff in our basement. We can grade the
last quarter of the driveway to drain to the street, but the middle
half is essentially level. A paving contractor is coming over
tonight, and I've got an email out to the city neighborhood
empowerment center, who'll be able to tell me local regulations, etc.

KLS wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:48:22 +0000 (UTC), "SteveB"
wrote:

How about changing the grade of your half of the driveway so that it
slopes toward the property line, making the property line the low
spot. Would the water will drain out to the street?

I'd like to do that, but they're telling me not to because they don't
want that water drifting toward their house, after years of us putting
up with their roof rainwater runoff in our basement. We can grade the
last quarter of the driveway to drain to the street, but the middle
half is essentially level. A paving contractor is coming over
tonight, and I've got an email out to the city neighborhood
empowerment center, who'll be able to tell me local regulations, etc.

They're not being very consistent, are they? It's OK for their water to
run toward your house, but *not* OK for your water to run toward
theirs? Even though it will stop at the property line because it's the
low spot?

I've only heard your side of the story, but it sounds like they're
being obstinate on purpose. It sounds like you have all your ducks in a
row. Good luck, and let us know what your experts say.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX

So whatever happened with this????
Curious Tomes

"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:48:22 +0000 (UTC), "SteveB"
wrote:

How about changing the grade of your half of the driveway so that it
slopes toward the property line, making the property line the low spot.
Would the water will drain out to the street?

I'd like to do that, but they're telling me not to because they don't
want that water drifting toward their house, after years of us putting
up with their roof rainwater runoff in our basement. We can grade the
last quarter of the driveway to drain to the street, but the middle
half is essentially level. A paving contractor is coming over
tonight, and I've got an email out to the city neighborhood
empowerment center, who'll be able to tell me local regulations, etc.