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#1
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with anECM motor?
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? |
#2
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 5:09*pm, Some Guy wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? What is an ECM motor? Just a few thoughts. Most conventional induction motors don't get that warm, so how much electricity are they wasting? Also; let's say that it is a 200 watt (quarter horsepower motor?) and you can 'save' one quarter of that consumption. Also the motor runs half the time? So saving = 0.05 kilowatts x 24/2 = 0.6 kilowatt hours per day. At 10 cents per k.watt.hr that = 6 cents per day. Roughly $25 per year? Versus cost of new motor? On other hand that 'wasted' electricity is dissipated within the house as heat so the furnace would have to run a few more minutes, burning a little more oil/gas each time to compensate? Might realise more gains by making furnace itself more efficient? |
#3
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with an ECM motor?
terry wrote:
On Dec 21, 5:09 pm, Some Guy wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? What is an ECM motor? Just a few thoughts. Most conventional induction motors don't get that warm, so how much electricity are they wasting? Also; let's say that it is a 200 watt (quarter horsepower motor?) and you can 'save' one quarter of that consumption. Also the motor runs half the time? So saving = 0.05 kilowatts x 24/2 = 0.6 kilowatt hours per day. At 10 cents per k.watt.hr that = 6 cents per day. Roughly $25 per year? Versus cost of new motor? On other hand that 'wasted' electricity is dissipated within the house as heat so the furnace would have to run a few more minutes, burning a little more oil/gas each time to compensate? But the motor is outside the conditioned-air area, so it won't affect the heating/cooling. Assuming the motor costs $200, according to your calculations you would break even in only eight years. However, there is the opportunity cost to consider. $200 in a savings account instead of a new motor, at 6% interest, generates $12 per year, making the savings only $13. At that rate, the break-even point occurs in fifteen years. Then there's the labor to install the motor, increased taxes, and other variables. |
#4
Posted to alt.home.repair, misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 1:46*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
terry wrote: On Dec 21, 5:09 pm, Some Guy wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? What is an ECM motor? Just a few thoughts. Most conventional induction motors don't get that warm, so how much electricity are they wasting? Also; let's say that it is a 200 watt (quarter horsepower motor?) and you can 'save' one quarter of that consumption. Also the motor runs half the time? So saving = 0.05 kilowatts x 24/2 = 0.6 kilowatt hours per day. At 10 cents per k.watt.hr that = 6 cents per day. Roughly $25 per year? Versus cost of new motor? On other hand that 'wasted' electricity is dissipated within the house as heat so the furnace would have to run a few more minutes, burning a little more oil/gas each time to compensate? But the motor is outside the conditioned-air area, so it won't affect the heating/cooling. Assuming the motor costs $200, according to your calculations you would break even in only eight years. However, there is the opportunity cost to consider. $200 in a savings account instead of a new motor, at 6% interest, generates $12 per year, making the savings only $13. At that rate, the break-even point occurs in fifteen years. Then there's the labor to install the motor, increased taxes, and other variables.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Where can you get a 600$ vsdc motor for 200? |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with an ECM motor?
ransley wrote:
On Dec 21, 1:46 pm, "HeyBub" wrote: terry wrote: On Dec 21, 5:09 pm, Some Guy wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? What is an ECM motor? Just a few thoughts. Most conventional induction motors don't get that warm, so how much electricity are they wasting? Also; let's say that it is a 200 watt (quarter horsepower motor?) and you can 'save' one quarter of that consumption. Also the motor runs half the time? So saving = 0.05 kilowatts x 24/2 = 0.6 kilowatt hours per day. At 10 cents per k.watt.hr that = 6 cents per day. Roughly $25 per year? Versus cost of new motor? On other hand that 'wasted' electricity is dissipated within the house as heat so the furnace would have to run a few more minutes, burning a little more oil/gas each time to compensate? But the motor is outside the conditioned-air area, so it won't affect the heating/cooling. Assuming the motor costs $200, according to your calculations you would break even in only eight years. However, there is the opportunity cost to consider. $200 in a savings account instead of a new motor, at 6% interest, generates $12 per year, making the savings only $13. At that rate, the break-even point occurs in fifteen years. Then there's the labor to install the motor, increased taxes, and other variables.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Where can you get a 600$ vsdc motor for 200? Arghh! I read 200 watts as 200 dollars. Sorry. Multiply all my calculations by three (45 years to recover the expense). As for your actual question, I guess I could get a $600 motor for $200 from someone who was silly enough to attempt this project. |
#6
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
HeyBub wrote:
Most conventional induction motors don't get that warm, so how much electricity are they wasting? They don't get warm because in a furnace, they're constantly being cooled by the return airflow hitting them. In general, from what I've read, a 1/4 to 1/2 hp PSC furnace motor is shedding 150 to 300 watts of heat energy when in use. Also; let's say that it is a 200 watt (quarter horsepower motor?) and you can 'save' one quarter of that consumption. At 100% efficiency, 1 hp = 746 watts. Since efficiency falls with motor size, a 1/4 hp motor is at best 50% efficient (see reference below). So it's consuming 373 watts (and shedding 186 watts as heat). I pay 10.6 cents per kw-hour (about 60% of that is for the electricity itself, and the other 40% is for other charges related to it's delivery to me, as well as gov't taxes). In the summer, I'm running my furnace fan constantly. For the average month, that's 730 hours. For a motor that's using 373 watts for 730 hours, that's 272 kw-hours. At 10.6 cents per kw-hour, that's $28.83 per month. Given a usage profile that has me running my fan for 100% during July and August, and tailing off to 20% in February, I project an average monthly usage of 49% for the entire year. That's about 4300 hours, which works out to 1600 kw-hours, which works out to $170. So if I had a conventional 1/4 hp PSC fan motor (50% efficient) running for 4300 hours per year, I'm going to pay $170 per year. If the motor was 100% efficient, I'd be paying $85 - saving $85 per year. At best, for an ECM motor, I'm going to increase my efficiency by 25% (to 75%), so I'm going to save $42 per year. I'd be saving more if I had a bigger motor, possibly saving $85 per year if this was a comparison using 1/2 hp motors. So what is the "over-the-counter" cost of a single speed 1/4 or 1/2 hp ECM motor? Are there any HVAC jobbers here that can answer that? ------------------------ http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings...s_analysis.pdf Good information really starts on page 13. Capacitor-start, 4-pole motors have efficiencies from 50% to 65% (1/4, 1/3 and 1/2 hp) with efficiency increasing along with motor hp. ------------------------ On other hand that 'wasted' electricity is dissipated within the house as heat so the furnace would have to run a few more minutes, burning a little more oil/gas each time to compensate? Most fan usage happens in conjunction with household cooling - not heating. During the non-heating seasons you are going to be running the fan - sometimes without the A/C going. I estimate that out of my hypothetical 4300 hours of fan use per year, 1640 hours will happen with the furnace on (about 38% of the time). Where I live, the climate is similar to Detroit, Buffalo or Toronto. Further south, more fan use will be for cooling than my projection of 62%. Based on this, the heat shed by the fan motor is not beneficial or desirable most of the time. But the motor is outside the conditioned-air area, so it won't affect the heating/cooling. The motor is *inside* the house. And it's placed directly in the circulating air stream. So of course 100% of the heat it's shedding will be transfered to the interior of the living space of the house. Assuming the motor costs $200, according to your calculations you would break even in only eight years. Assuming my savings are between $40 and $80 per year (say, $60) and if the motor costs $180 then it will take 3 years for payback. If the motor is $240, then payback will be 4 years. If the motor is $480, then payback will be 8 years. The idea of earning interest on the money is nice, except that most likely electricity costs will likely also rise, perhaps in a similar way as your proposed 6%, so the opportunity cost factor will be a wash. Especially given the volitile nature of the stock markets, and declining interest rates. The S&P is up only 4.5% now vs the start of the year. Then there's the labor to install the motor, That was going to be done by yours truly, so that's not a factor. increased taxes, Not sure what you mean by that. |
#7
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with an ECM motor?
Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:46:20 -0600 from HeyBub :
However, there is the opportunity cost to consider. $200 in a savings account instead of a new motor, at 6% interest, generates $12 per year, making the savings only $13. Don't forget that interest is taxable, not to mention that a 6% savings account is not realistic. Bankrate.com says CD rates are still around 5% but likely to drop soon; a savings account would be below that. Figure 4% savings account, 28% tax bracket. Interest that you get to keep is $8 times 0.72 a year, $5.76, so the savings would be $19.24 a year and the payback period would be ten years and a few months. Unless, of course, you're able to take advantage of some program that subsidizes replacing inefficient equipment with efficient equipment. Then the payback would be shorter. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com/ "If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/ |
#8
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with an ECM motor?
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:09:25 -0500, Some Guy wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. You'll never recoup the cost. Wait for the unit to wear out and then replace it with something more efficient. If the entire unit is hopelessly inefficient, then retrofitting makes no sense; replace the entire unit. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Does anybody know how to use a web search tool? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? Probably not; the motor is likely to be inside a metal housing. |
#9
Posted to alt.home.repair, misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 9:14*am, AZ Nomad wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 09:09:25 -0500, Some Guy wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. You'll never recoup the cost. *Wait for the unit to wear out and then replace it with something more efficient. *If the entire unit is hopelessly inefficient, then retrofitting makes no sense; *replace the entire unit. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Does anybody know how to use a web search tool? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? Probably not; *the motor is likely to be inside a metal housing. you need the electronics to run it, you cant just replace it my Lennox guy said |
#10
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
ransley wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. you need the electronics to run it, you cant just replace it my Lennox guy said I'm pretty sure that's not correct. From what I can tell, all the electronics are inside the motor. You hook up the main AC supply directly to the motor, just like a conventional AC motor. |
#11
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with an ECM motor?
"Some Guy" wrote in message ...
ransley wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. you need the electronics to run it, you cant just replace it my Lennox guy said I'm pretty sure that's not correct. From what I can tell, all the electronics are inside the motor. You hook up the main AC supply directly to the motor, just like a conventional AC motor. I don't think he was talking about the electronics of the motor. Conventional motors were either ON or OFF and coincided with heat or cooling on or off with a thermostatic delay. The newer ECM motors have a control panel that changes the speed of the blower but at the same time controlling the furnace heat output or the A/C compressor speed. Usually it is just a two stage where there is a low and a high heat or A/C. I don't think you'd get the full benefit by just switching motors if it didn't match the control panel, burner and compressor. -al sung Rapid Realm Technology, Inc. Hopkinton, MA |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
Alan Sung wrote:
From what I can tell, all the electronics are inside the motor. You hook up the main AC supply directly to the motor, just like a conventional AC motor. I don't think he was talking about the electronics of the motor. Conventional motors were either ON or OFF and coincided with heat or cooling on or off with a thermostatic delay. The newer ECM motors have a control panel As part of OEM equipment built into a furnace, an ECM motor will be connected to a control panel. As a replacement part bought over-the-counter, they most probably will not come with any such panel. There will most certainly be more connections on them for wires other than household 120 AC power. There may also be dip-switches or jumpers on them. Presumably it would also come with a data sheet or wiring diagram. that changes the speed of the blower but at the same time controlling the furnace heat output or the A/C compressor speed. An HVAC maker can choose to use an ECM motor as a single-speed, or maybe 2 speed, or continuously variable speed while at the same time altering the heat output of the furnace (or changing the speed of the compressor for AC) if they want to modulate the heat output of the furnace and modulate the blower fan speed at the same time. But it's still the case that an ECM motor is touted as being more efficient *at all speeds and loads* compared to a PSC motor. So even if I just use an ECM motor as a drop-in replacement for a PSC motor, and wire the ECM motor for single-speed operation (which theoretically shouldn't require an external controller board), then I should realize some savings on my electrical bill. And if I have the knowledge, I can rig my own control method such that I can vary the fan speed at will. I could, for example, rig a pot or a switch beside my thermostat so when I'm running the fan only for circulation, I can turn down the speed (and realize even more savings when compared to my PSC motor). I don't think you'd get the full benefit by just switching motors if it didn't match the control panel, burner and compressor. If my current HVAC setup is operating such that I would not gain any increase in "comfort" by having a variable-speed blower fan, then a variable-speed motor would not be of any interest to me. However, ECM refers to a particular type of motor technology. ECM does not defacto mean variable speed. PSC motors can also be rigged for variable speed operation too (with the appropriate external controller). The issue of a controller board keeps cropping up in this thread, and it's a red herring. |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
AZ Nomad wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. You'll never recoup the cost. Wait for the unit to wear out and... Conventional small AC motors (fractional HP motors) are VERY inefficient at converting electricity into motion. I've seen numbers around 50% efficiency. Many new furnaces today come with ECM motors because furnace fans run longer (higher duty cycle) in modern HVAC systems today vs 20+ years ago. If the cost of an ECM motor is, say, less than $200 (for the do-it-yourself-er) then it's highly likely that just replacing a conventional AC motor with an ECM motor in an existing furnace would pay itself back in 1 to 2 years - plus you have the existing motor as a backup if or when the ECM motor breaks down. If the entire unit is hopelessly inefficient, then retrofitting makes no sense; There are many mid-efficiency (80%) furnaces out there that DON't have ECM motors, and there are many older furnaces that with simple additions and modifications to intake and exhaust ducting (and by turning down the burners and adjusting the burner primary air baffles) can bring them to near 80% efficiency. You can convert a 30-year-old 60% efficient furnance to closed-combustion with some ducting and modification to the cabinet's venting for example. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Does anybody know how to use a web search tool? Nobody's posting any over-the-counter or "cash'n'carry" prices for these motors on their websites. I don't think too many of them are being sold for retro-fit or non-HVAC systems. In fact, there may even be supply shortages such that all production is going straight to HVAC manufacturers. Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? Probably not; the motor is likely to be inside a metal housing. My experience with electronically-controlled, variable-speed AC motors (that you find in some treadmills and science-labs fume hoods) is that they are extremely noisy (EM/RF noise) and without a lot of filtering they inject a lot of noise back into the main supply wiring. If there is a lot of high-current switching going on inside an ECM motor, then I would think they too would be electrically noisy. |
#14
Posted to alt.home.repair, misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 10:34*am, Some Guy wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. You'll never recoup the cost. *Wait for the unit to wear out and... Conventional small AC motors (fractional HP motors) are VERY inefficient at converting electricity into motion. *I've seen numbers around 50% efficiency. Many new furnaces today come with ECM motors because furnace fans run longer (higher duty cycle) in modern HVAC systems today vs 20+ years ago. If the cost of an ECM motor is, say, less than $200 (for the do-it-yourself-er) then it's highly likely that just replacing a conventional AC motor with an ECM motor in an existing furnace would pay itself back in 1 to 2 years - plus you have the existing motor as a backup if or when the ECM motor breaks down. If the entire unit is hopelessly inefficient, then retrofitting makes no sense; * There are many mid-efficiency (80%) furnaces out there that DON't have ECM motors, and there are many older furnaces that with simple additions and modifications to intake and exhaust ducting (and by turning down the burners and adjusting the burner primary air baffles) can bring them to near 80% efficiency. *You can convert a 30-year-old 60% efficient furnance to closed-combustion with some ducting and modification to the cabinet's venting for example. This furnace "modification" suggestion sounds very dubious and full of obvious and potentially serious drawbacks to me. Like people screwing around and winding up killing a house full of people with CO or fire. If you have a 60% 30 year old furnace and it's worth increasing it's efficiency, then it's worth getting a new furnace. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Does anybody know how to use a web search tool? Nobody's posting any over-the-counter or "cash'n'carry" prices for these motors on their websites. I don't think too many of them are being sold for retro-fit or non-HVAC systems. In fact, there may even be supply shortages such that all production is going straight to HVAC manufacturers. Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? Probably not; *the motor is likely to be inside a metal housing. My experience with electronically-controlled, variable-speed AC motors (that you find in some treadmills and science-labs fume hoods) is that they are extremely noisy (EM/RF noise) and without a lot of filtering they inject a lot of noise back into the main supply wiring. If there is a lot of high-current switching going on inside an ECM motor, then I would think they too would be electrically noisy. |
#16
Posted to alt.home.repair, misc.consumers.house
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 5:26*pm, Some Guy wrote:
wrote: You can convert a 30-year-old 60% efficient furnance to closed-combustion with some ducting and modification to the cabinet's venting for example. This furnace "modification" suggestion sounds very dubious Not really. *You can create a closed-loop for the intake air very simply with the appropriate additions of ductwork that takes outside air directly into the cabinet and sealing the cabinet so that the combustion side can't mix with household air. *The secondary flue air intake (directly below where the flue starts) can also be sealed and ducted so that it pulls air from a dedicated outside supply duct and not from household air near the furnace. *So in this scenario no outside air can enter the house through the flue, and no combustion products or gasses can enter the interior air of the house. That is exactly what mid and high efficiency furnaces do, and there's no reason the same mods can't be done with low efficiency furnaces that are 20+ years old. Like people screwing around and winding up killing a house full of people with CO or fire. * You're actually making it safer by creating a closed loop. *By doing so, there is no way that the blower can suck air back through the flue. *Given an un-modified low-efficiency furnace, that's exactly what can happen if the house is sealed too tightly and too many exhaust fans are operating in the house. If you have a 60% 30 year old furnace and it's worth increasing it's efficiency, then it's worth getting a new furnace. The furnaces made today are riddled with problems with short-lived heat exchangers, sensors and electronic controllers. Have a look at this site for an example of a poorly-designed secondary heat exchanger: http://furnaceclaims.com/ It's generally accepted within pro hvac circles that there are many new components, ideas and manufacturing techniques cropping up in furnaces over the past few years that don't have the benefit of years of field longevity and durability testing. No it isn't generally accepted. What you're referring to isn't unsolved problems, what it's called is "planned obsolescence". If it doens't break they can't sell you a new one. The hvac industry is a relative late-comer to that game, thats all. |
#17
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with an ECM motor?
(Some Guy) wrote in :
Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? Maybe, maybe not. If you bought a commercial furnace that included one, the complete assembly would have to comply with FCC regulations (or those of your own national regulating body, if you're not in the US) regarding EMI in a household environment, so you shouldn't experience any radio interference. On the other hand, if you just go buy some random motor that happens to fit in your old furnace, you won't know 'til you fire it up. -- Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | |
#18
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor with an ECM motor?
"Some Guy" wrote in message ... Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? http://www.ccht-cctr.gc.ca/ecm_e.html It's a Canadian study but shows some benefits PV |
#19
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 8:09*am, Some Guy wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? ECM motors require a control signal in addition to line voltage. Also, you cannot just wire the power to the motor, it requires a pre- wired molex plug specifically designed to plug into the motor. Likewise for the control signal. A control board is also required, that is, unless you know how to hot wire the motor control signal. There is however a new ECM design avialable called the "Evergreen AH". It is specifically designed as a retrofit for PSC motors. I have no idea how much they cost. They are not rated at this time for furnaces, air handlers only. This limitation can also be worked around by someone with the correct skills. The retrofit isn't really practical from any standpoint, even though it is possible to do. |
#20
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
hvacrmedic wrote:
There is however a new ECM design avialable called the "Evergreen AH". It is specifically designed as a retrofit for PSC motors. http://www.thedealertoolbox.com/ever...82d3b5 e1cd0d They are not rated at this time for furnaces, air handlers only. What's the difference between a furnace-fan motor and an air-handler-fan motor? The retrofit isn't really practical from any standpoint, even though it is possible to do. Seems you're wrong. It's being marketed directly to HVAC repair shops exactly as a replacement for furnace PSC motors. "Evergreen AH is the world’s first high-efficiency ECM replacement motor that is designed to replace factory PSC blower motors in residential air handlers. That means you can now offer your customers the comfort and efficiency of ECM in an easy-to-install replacement motor. Built from the same trusted, field-proven ECM technology that is found in millions of OEM systems nationwide, Evergreen AH uses up to 25% fewer watts in operating mode and up to 74% fewer Watts than a PSC motor in constant fan." http://www.thedealertoolbox.com/serv...82d3b5e 1cd0d See also: http://www.evergreenmotor.com/faq.php |
#21
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 5:42 pm, Some Guy wrote:
hvacrmedic wrote: There is however a new ECM design avialable called the "Evergreen AH". It is specifically designed as a retrofit for PSC motors. http://www.thedealertoolbox.com/ever...=a3eeeffb9e20d... They are not rated at this time for furnaces, air handlers only. What's the difference between a furnace-fan motor and an air-handler-fan motor? There is no difference in the motors. It's the control systems that are different. The retrofit isn't really practical from any standpoint, even though it is possible to do. Seems you're wrong. It's being marketed directly to HVAC repair shops exactly as a replacement for furnace PSC motors. I believe I said as much. This has nothing to do with the practicality of buying one. "Evergreen AH is the world's first high-efficiency ECM replacement motor that is designed to replace factory PSC blower motors in residential air handlers. That means you can now offer your customers the comfort and efficiency of ECM in an easy-to-install replacement motor. Built from the same trusted, field-proven ECM technology that is found in millions of OEM systems nationwide, Evergreen AH uses up to 25% fewer watts in operating mode and up to 74% fewer Watts than a PSC motor in constant fan." http://www.thedealertoolbox.com/serv...PSESSID=a3eeef... See also: http://www.evergreenmotor.com/faq.php Quoting a salespitch isn't the equivalent of enlightenment. You didn't even know that the thing existed until a few minutes ago. In fact you thought (very wrongly) that you could throw a standard ECM motor into any old unit. You should spend some time googling reliable resources and less time stating your own uneducated opinions. |
#22
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
hvacrmedic wrote:
There is no difference in the motors. It's the control systems that are different. What - On Off What else do you need for a control system? Quoting a salespitch isn't the equivalent of enlightenment. You didn't even know that the thing existed until a few minutes ago. I've known about ECM motors for some time. In fact you thought (very wrongly) that you could throw a standard ECM motor into any old unit. What is a "standard" ECM motor? I know that there are drop-in ECM motors - even if they have dip-switches to set their operation in the absence of a control signal. The Evergreen unit isin't the only drop-in replacement. |
#23
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 7:42*pm, Some Guy wrote:
hvacrmedic wrote: There is no difference in the motors. It's the control systems that are different. What - On Off What else do you need for a control system? More than the two words on and off. Quoting a salespitch isn't the equivalent of enlightenment. You didn't even know that the thing existed until a few minutes ago. I've known about ECM motors for some time. You've known they existed. Great. In fact you thought (very wrongly) that you could throw a standard ECM motor into any old unit. * What is a "standard" ECM motor? A "standard" ECM motor is an ECM motor that can be used to replace a PSC motor. For the difference between these and the other ECM motors in thier line-up, you can read the GE literature, or watch the videos listed here. http://www.thedealertoolbox.com/training-videos.php I know that there are drop-in ECM motors - even if they have dip-switches to set their operation in the absence of a control signal. The Evergreen unit isin't the only drop-in replacement. So what's stopping you from dropping one in? I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, but you seem to be posting a lot of opinions in this and other threads that FWIW have been mostly empirically incorrect. I'm done with this particular training session. Come up with another topic that's a bit more interesting. |
#24
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
Some Guy wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Does anyone know what the "over-the-counter" cost is of these motors? Also, do ECM motors generate electrical or RF noise that is either radiated by the motor or fed back into the household wiring, thereby messing up AM radio reception? Hi, Don't even bother. It is DC servorized motor with matching control logic board. High efficiency furnaces are made to take advantage of this variable speed motor. Also they are not as reliable as ordinary motor. If you don't understand how closed loop DC servo motor works.. |
#25
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwithan ECM motor?
Tony Hwang wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Don't even bother. It is DC servorized motor with matching control logic board. High efficiency furnaces are made to take advantage of this variable speed motor. Everything you're saying is true, but it doesn't mean that fundamentally ECM motors are more efficient regardless in what type of furnace they're used in. Even if all I do is use it as a constant-speed replacement for a 50% efficient PSC motor, it will use less electricity. The question is - how much, and what is the over-the-counter cost of a suitable ECM motor (not the HVAC-contractor-installed price). Also they are not as reliable as ordinary motor. That is probably true, and along the lines of planned obsolescence that's designed into modern residential HVAC systems. |
#26
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwithan ECM motor?
On Dec 21, 11:04*pm, Some Guy wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Don't even bother. It is DC servorized motor with matching control logic board. High efficiency furnaces are made to take advantage of this variable speed motor. Everything you're saying is true, but it doesn't mean that fundamentally ECM motors are more efficient regardless in what type of furnace they're used in. Even if all I do is use it as a constant-speed replacement for a 50% efficient PSC motor, it will use less electricity. The question is - how much, and what is the over-the-counter cost of a suitable ECM motor (not the HVAC-contractor-installed price). Also they are not as reliable as ordinary motor. That is probably true, and along the lines of planned obsolescence that's designed into modern residential HVAC systems. I've worked at and with a lot of companies engaged in all kinds of product design during my career. But I never heard any discussion of planned obsolence, which IMO is largely an urban legend. There is a real tradeoff between what it costs to make, how much you can sell it for, and longevity. In my experience, that is where the tradeoff is made. If you made a product that deliberately lasted 10 years, while it could last 20, it wouldn't be long before a competitor whose product did last 20 would start eating your market share because their product was superior. That's how free markets work. The typical funace lasts 20 years. Given the cost, that seems a reasonable lifespan. How many customers would be willing to pay say 30% more for one that lasted another 5 years? Or 50% more for one that lasted another 10? Most people don't even plan to be in their homes that long today. Given that the energy situation and technology is constantly evolving, I don't see a problem with the lifespan or value proposition presented by today's furnaces. |
#27
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwithan ECM motor?
On Dec 22, 8:03*am, wrote:
On Dec 21, 11:04*pm, Some Guy wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Don't even bother. It is DC servorized motor with matching control logic board. High efficiency furnaces are made to take advantage of this variable speed motor. Everything you're saying is true, but it doesn't mean that fundamentally ECM motors are more efficient regardless in what type of furnace they're used in. Even if all I do is use it as a constant-speed replacement for a 50% efficient PSC motor, it will use less electricity. The question is - how much, and what is the over-the-counter cost of a suitable ECM motor (not the HVAC-contractor-installed price). Also they are not as reliable as ordinary motor. That is probably true, and along the lines of planned obsolescence that's designed into modern residential HVAC systems. I've worked at and with a lot of companies engaged in all kinds of product design during my career. *But I never heard any discussion of planned obsolence, which IMO is largely an urban legend. * * There is a real tradeoff between what it costs to make, how much you can sell it for, and longevity. *In my experience, that is where the tradeoff is made. If you made a product that deliberately lasted 10 years, while it could last 20, it wouldn't be long before a competitor whose product did last 20 would start eating your market share because their product was superior. * That's how free markets work. The typical funace lasts 20 years. * Given the cost, that seems a reasonable lifespan. * How many customers would be willing to pay say 30% more for one that lasted another 5 years? *Or 50% more for one that lasted another 10? * Most people don't even plan to be in their homes that long today. *Given that the energy situation and technology is constantly evolving, I don't see a problem with the lifespan or value proposition presented by today's furnaces.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "Not designed to last 30 years" is logically equivalent to "Designed to last no more than 30 years". Like I said, it isn't necessarily a concious desicion, but planned obselesence is precisely what it is. |
#28
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwithan ECM motor?
On Dec 22, 8:16*am, hvacrmedic wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:03*am, wrote: On Dec 21, 11:04*pm, Some Guy wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Don't even bother. It is DC servorized motor with matching control logic board. High efficiency furnaces are made to take advantage of this variable speed motor. Everything you're saying is true, but it doesn't mean that fundamentally ECM motors are more efficient regardless in what type of furnace they're used in. Even if all I do is use it as a constant-speed replacement for a 50% efficient PSC motor, it will use less electricity. The question is - how much, and what is the over-the-counter cost of a suitable ECM motor (not the HVAC-contractor-installed price). Also they are not as reliable as ordinary motor. That is probably true, and along the lines of planned obsolescence that's designed into modern residential HVAC systems. I've worked at and with a lot of companies engaged in all kinds of product design during my career. *But I never heard any discussion of planned obsolence, which IMO is largely an urban legend. * * There is a real tradeoff between what it costs to make, how much you can sell it for, and longevity. *In my experience, that is where the tradeoff is made. If you made a product that deliberately lasted 10 years, while it could last 20, it wouldn't be long before a competitor whose product did last 20 would start eating your market share because their product was superior. * That's how free markets work. The typical funace lasts 20 years. * Given the cost, that seems a reasonable lifespan. * How many customers would be willing to pay say 30% more for one that lasted another 5 years? *Or 50% more for one that lasted another 10? * Most people don't even plan to be in their homes that long today. *Given that the energy situation and technology is constantly evolving, I don't see a problem with the lifespan or value proposition presented by today's furnaces.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "Not designed to last 30 years" is logically equivalent to "Designed to last no more than 30 years". Like I said, it isn't necessarily a concious desicion, but planned obselesence is precisely what it is.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Actually that number has been halved, 15 years being the present value. Some even say 12, depending upon who you ask. Is the cup half empty, or half full? The point of that being that even though the systems are designed to last no more than 15 years, by taking the stance that they are designed to last at least 15 years you've convinced yourself that that means something different, when, as I said, it is a perfectly equivalent view to planned obsolesence. |
#29
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwithan ECM motor?
On Dec 22, 9:16*am, hvacrmedic wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:03*am, wrote: On Dec 21, 11:04*pm, Some Guy wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Don't even bother. It is DC servorized motor with matching control logic board. High efficiency furnaces are made to take advantage of this variable speed motor. Everything you're saying is true, but it doesn't mean that fundamentally ECM motors are more efficient regardless in what type of furnace they're used in. Even if all I do is use it as a constant-speed replacement for a 50% efficient PSC motor, it will use less electricity. The question is - how much, and what is the over-the-counter cost of a suitable ECM motor (not the HVAC-contractor-installed price). Also they are not as reliable as ordinary motor. That is probably true, and along the lines of planned obsolescence that's designed into modern residential HVAC systems. I've worked at and with a lot of companies engaged in all kinds of product design during my career. *But I never heard any discussion of planned obsolence, which IMO is largely an urban legend. * * There is a real tradeoff between what it costs to make, how much you can sell it for, and longevity. *In my experience, that is where the tradeoff is made. If you made a product that deliberately lasted 10 years, while it could last 20, it wouldn't be long before a competitor whose product did last 20 would start eating your market share because their product was superior. * That's how free markets work. The typical funace lasts 20 years. * Given the cost, that seems a reasonable lifespan. * How many customers would be willing to pay say 30% more for one that lasted another 5 years? *Or 50% more for one that lasted another 10? * Most people don't even plan to be in their homes that long today. *Given that the energy situation and technology is constantly evolving, I don't see a problem with the lifespan or value proposition presented by today's furnaces.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "Not designed to last 30 years" is logically equivalent to "Designed to last no more than 30 years". Like I said, it isn't necessarily a concious desicion, but planned obselesence is precisely what it is.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The notion of something being planned without it being a conscious decision defies all logic. My main point is that Some Guy referred to planned obsolescence designed into today's products. Which to most people implies there is some specific planning on the part of manufacturers that is different today to make sure the product only lasts a given number of years and then fails so they have to buy another one. In reality, it's no different today than it ever was. Manufacturer's are competing in a free economy and reacting to it. That includes making trade-offs, as has always been done, about how long it makes sense for a product to last vs how much it costs to build it and how much people are willing to pay for it. If you want to call that planned obsolescence, then we agree, but I think it's a poor choice of words and it's nothing specific to today's products. |
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith anECM motor?
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#31
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwithan ECM motor?
On Dec 22, 10:26*am, HVAC Guy wrote:
wrote: If you made a product that deliberately lasted 10 years, while it could last 20, it wouldn't be long before a competitor whose product did last 20 would start eating your market share because their product was superior. * That's how free markets work. The problem is that nothing purchased by *anybody* will be kept for 20 years. *That time-frame is too long. It doesn't matter if it's a car, or roofing shingles, or furnaces, or cell phones or TV's. Once you get beyond 5 years, it's irrelevant if you could design it to last 10 years or 20 years. *It won't matter. Most home owners putting a new furnace in a house today will not be the same people living in the same house 10 years from now when the furnace breaks down. All of that I agree with. Which is exactly what I've been saying. Manufacturers are simply reacting to what the market needs are. The HVAC industry is, and has been, working toward a goal of making sure that just as each owner of a given house will probably have to replace the roof once during the ownership of the house, he will also have to replace the furnace too. Now that I'd like to see proof of. That is a different situation compared to 20 or 30 years ago, when the original furnace installed in a new house back in 1965 - 1980 would easily last 30+ years and the house would pass through the hands of 3 or 4 owners without needing a new furnace. The typical funace lasts 20 years. My parent's house was built in 1955 and they replaced it's original forced-air natural gas furnace about 5 years ago. *That's 45 years with the same furnace. My house was built in 1976 and has it's original natural gas furnace. That's 32 years and counting. The typical funace lasts 20 years. So the HVAC industry is on target at reducing furnace lifespan down to the time frame of the average length of home-ownership - about 7 years. *Good for them. I'd like to see proof that the goal is to get lifespan down to 7 years. Given the cost, that seems a reasonable lifespan. * It's a waste of energy and resources for an industry to design such a product with an intentionally short lifespan. *It runs counter to the national interests on such scales as energy usage (to build it in the first place) and environmental impact when it's taken to the landfill when it's discarded. What short lifespan are you referring to? 20 years for a furnace seems like a reasonable compromise in terms of lifespan. And you choose to totally ignore the energy usage that a 45 year old furnace will waste compared to a new one? I'd say that will easily outweigh the energy wasted by recycling it back to the scrap yard. Look at all the environmental programs out there to encourage precisely this kind of action. Utilities and govts are offering rebates for consumers to encourage them to get a new furnace or AC system that is energy efficient. That surely leads to more of the old ones going to the metal scrap yard And how many customers are going to be willing to pay significantly more for a furnace that will last 45 years, without knowing how improvements, energy sources, convenience features, etc will play out over decades? I'll pay more for something if I think it's going to be worth it and economically makes sense. And for me, 20-25 years is the sweet spot for an HVAC system. I'm not going to shell out much, if anything more for one that is supposed to last 45 years. You could make the same argument for other items, like wiring, plumbing, fixtures, the bricks and 2x4 studs in the walls. *Why do they need to last 50+ years? *Why not design the entire house and every structural and functional element inside it so that it only lasts 10 to 15 years? *After all, I'm not going to live in the house for more than 10 years - right? Now this is just plain silly. Historically, there haven't been a lot of improvements or changes in 2X4's, bricks, or the basic plumbing system. There has been in HVAC though. Nor can they be replaced with even remotely the ease of an HVAC system. As for things like fixtures, I'd submit that few people today expect any of them to last for 50+ years. People are used to dishwashers, ovens, etc lasting 15 years or so. Even faucets and sinks get changed long before 50 years. I wouldn't want the same style sink or faucet I had 50 years ago. I just replaced my own kitchen sink which was 20 years old for convenience and changing needs. And then watch the landfills get filled up when all those houses get torn down and rebuilt every 15 or 20 years. *That makes real good sense - doesn't it? Not an issue because it isn't happening and isn't going to. How many customers would be willing to pay say 30% more for one that lasted another 5 years? *Or 50% more for one that lasted another 10? * That's the crock - that thinking that it costs so much more to make it last another 5 or 10 years. You don't want it to last 5 more years. You keep referring to 45 or 50 years. And without knowing what it costs to manufacture specific items, there is no way for you to know how much more anything costs to build, it's pure speculation. It's the electronic items that fail and become absurdly (criminally) expensive to fix that forces the removal of a furnace - not because it's suffered an irreparable structural or mechanical failure. *And as home owners become dumber and dumber about how things work or how to fix things for themselves, they will be at the mercy of contractors and repair men. Welcome to the modern world. Try going down to the dealer and seeing how much a new computer or similar module costs for your car. Or some parts for a refrigerator or stove. Given that the energy situation and technology is constantly evolving, There's very little new in furnace design that wasn't known 50 years ago. * So, they had 95% efficient furnaces 50 years ago? I must have missed that. Plus in many cases, people are using AC systems today as opposed to 1957, aren't they? I suppose any old AC system that is part of the whole picture and that is of similar age is peachy keen too? There is no constant evolution (at least not in North America). In Japan, they have furnaces with built-in 1 kw electric generators to provide some electrical co-generation that can supplement the electricity supply for the house - and keep the blower running in the case of complete power outages (like what's happening to thousands in the central USA right now). |
#32
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwithan ECM motor?
Some Guy wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote: Just wondering if anyone has replaced their conventional furnace / HVAC fan motor (PSC, single phase, etc) with one of the new ECM motors to realize a reduction in your electricity bill. Don't even bother. It is DC servorized motor with matching control logic board. High efficiency furnaces are made to take advantage of this variable speed motor. Everything you're saying is true, but it doesn't mean that fundamentally ECM motors are more efficient regardless in what type of furnace they're used in. Even if all I do is use it as a constant-speed replacement for a 50% efficient PSC motor, it will use less electricity. The question is - how much, and what is the over-the-counter cost of a suitable ECM motor (not the HVAC-contractor-installed price). Also they are not as reliable as ordinary motor. That is probably true, and along the lines of planned obsolescence that's designed into modern residential HVAC systems. Hi, This type motor is known for failure mode for motor and controller going out together. Most people who has this thing in their furnace, they take out 10 year warranty for that part. If you buy and use it as constant speed blower at an expense, that is fine for the purpose of experiment but economy wise I don't think you'll recover initial cost and if it fails...... |
#33
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
Tony Hwang wrote:
This type motor is known for failure mode for motor and controller going out together. Most people who has this thing in their furnace, they take out 10 year warranty for that part. That is all probably true. If you buy and use it as constant speed blower at an expense, that is fine for the purpose of experiment but economy wise I don't think you'll recover initial cost and if it fails...... In a previous post, I've already roughly calculated that I'd probably save $40, possibly $60 per year if I changed my PSC motor for an ECM motor. The question that I continue to ask is: What is the "over-the-counter" price of an ECM motor? I can walk into any hardware or farm supply store and buy a 120v, 1/3 hp PSC motor (for $75 to $150). Where do go when I want to pick up an ECM motor? Who sells them "over the counter" ? |
#34
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motorwith an ECM motor?
Some Guy wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote: This type motor is known for failure mode for motor and controller going out together. Most people who has this thing in their furnace, they take out 10 year warranty for that part. That is all probably true. If you buy and use it as constant speed blower at an expense, that is fine for the purpose of experiment but economy wise I don't think you'll recover initial cost and if it fails...... In a previous post, I've already roughly calculated that I'd probably save $40, possibly $60 per year if I changed my PSC motor for an ECM motor. The question that I continue to ask is: What is the "over-the-counter" price of an ECM motor? I can walk into any hardware or farm supply store and buy a 120v, 1/3 hp PSC motor (for $75 to $150). Where do go when I want to pick up an ECM motor? Who sells them "over the counter" ? Hi, Lennox is known for selling parts only to trade people. You can contact other brand supply house or try on-line search. Another issue maybe mechanically fitting it into your existing set up. Prepare to pay over a grand for motor and controller. How much is electricity cost where you are? I have locked in rate of 7 cents per KWH for next 5 years. |
#35
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Has anyone ever replaced their conventional furnace fan motor withan ECM motor?
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