[ I'm not sure if this is the best group
to post this in. If you know of a better
group let me know. ]

Hello,

I am considering a manufactured home
because they offer a very attractive
price point. However, based on what
I've read on various message boards
I am having serious doubts as to the
viability of these homes. To make
matters more difficult there are no
less than three key players in the
process each of which seem to have
a history of probelms:

1) Manufacture
2) Dealer
3) Setup and Installer

It seems that any or all of these player
can ruin your home buying experience.

My question is basically this. Based on
the horror stories I've seen here and
elsewhere is there any real point in
considering a manufactured home?

Are there people out there who have had
good luck with their manufactured home?
How can one make sure they get a good
deal and their home is delivered and
installed properly?

Also, are the rates of dissatisfaction of
manufactured home owners significantly
higer than "traditional" home owners?
They also have their fair share of
problems.

I really like the cost savings of a
manufactured home but I don't even want
to get involved if it's something that
I'll regret the rest of my life. (I'm
going to put down a sizeable amount of
cash for the down payment -- at least
it's sizeable to me .

I look forward to your comments.

Kent

wrote:

My question is basically this. Based on
the horror stories I've seen here and
elsewhere is there any real point in
considering a manufactured home?

There are two types of manufactured homes in the US:

The typical "trailer" type (Note that these come in single, double and triple
wide flavors), and the other is factory built and assembled on site housing.

RUN, do not walk away from the trailer type. You will be spending your money on
a rapidly depreciating asset that has no hope of any resale value in the future,
subjects you to renting a lot (in most situations) with ever increasing rents,
and assorted other horrors.

Now, manufactured (sometimes known as modular) housing is another story. If you
deal with a quality manufacturer (who is usually the installer), you can come
very close to all the benefits of a traditionally built house, and frequently
get higher quality and more features from the typical starter home.

In article .com,
wrote:

I am considering a manufactured home
because they offer a very attractive
price point. However, based on what
I've read on various message boards
I am having serious doubts as to the
viability of these homes. To make
matters more difficult there are no
less than three key players in the
process each of which seem to have
a history of probelms:

1) Manufacture
2) Dealer
3) Setup and Installer

It seems that any or all of these player
can ruin your home buying experience.

My question is basically this. Based on
the horror stories I've seen here and
elsewhere is there any real point in
considering a manufactured home?

There is a very good point...you can get into
a nice new home for a fraction of what a traditional
city house costs. Many people have enough equity
in their current homes to sell, pay cash for
one of these units, and never have a house
payment again. Live gets a lot easier and more
flexiable when you don't have house payments
hanging over your head each month.

Are there people out there who have had
good luck with their manufactured home?
How can one make sure they get a good
deal and their home is delivered and
installed properly?

The big thing is learn all you can, and visit
as many manufactures, dealers, and parks that
you can. You will soon be able to sort out
the good work from the fly by night. Also,
check with your insurance company to see what
they might require.

Also, are the rates of dissatisfaction of
manufactured home owners significantly
higer than "traditional" home owners?
They also have their fair share of
problems.

With stick-built houses, there are problems, but
the cost of the problems can be 10 times the
cost of problems with mobile homes or single
and double-wides. I cannot count how many times
I hear of people mortgaged up to their eyeballs,
and then find out they have mold in their house,
and they lose everything.

I really like the cost savings of a
manufactured home but I don't even want
to get involved if it's something that
I'll regret the rest of my life. (I'm
going to put down a sizeable amount of
cash for the down payment -- at least
it's sizeable to me .

Where and how you live is a key lifestyle
choice. Unless you are a billionaire, everything
is going to be a trade off. The best you can
do is make a good decision and give it a try.
If it doesn't work out, then forget having
regrets, simply fix the problem and move on.
A relatively new manufactured home in good
condition should be able to be sold without
taking too much of a bath, although it might
take some time to find the right buyer and sell
it.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

The reasons for buying a house, if you ask me, are to have pretty much
fixed monthly payments from then on (slight yearly increases in
taxes/insurance though), and to have your own home and property to do with
what you want.

If you want to repair your car in your driveway, that is your business. If
you want to water your lawn or have a swimming pool for the kids, that is
your business.

If you buy a manufactured home and place it in a manufactured home park and
pay rent for the space... Then it is basically the same as renting in that
the park manager can tell you what you can and can't do.

Also space rent will go up.

Then if you want to move, you are stuck. It would cost quite a bit to move
the manufactured home. And you would probably have difficulty selling it. I
have seen entire parks with for sale signs on every manufactured home and
no buyers. The people had been trying to sell for years.

So if planning to buy a manufactured home and rent the space/land it sits
on, might as well just rent a house or apartment. Then it would be easier
to move if you were not happy for one reason or another.

Also repairing things and installing new things in a manufactured home can
be a real pain. You may not be able to go out and buy just any new furnace
for example. You may be stuck with only furnaces approved for manufactured
homes. Same thing with wood stoves. They need to be manufactured home
approved.

And various plumbing parts may not be available locally. I know a plumber
who tried getting some special hose clamps used in manufactured home water
"pipe" plumbing. They were only available from the home manufacturer. The
manufacturer would not sell them to the plumber. Then the only way the
manufactured home owner could get their plumbing repaired was to have the
service department of the home manufacturer come out and fix it for an
exorbitant rate.

Need a new door? Maybe the doors are special sizes. May not be able buy one
just anywhere...

Thanks for the replies...

I guess I failed to mention that I would be
putting it on private land and on a permanent
foundation.

wrote:

I guess I failed to mention that I would be putting it on private land

Assuming the land is yours or you have made other arrangements, that avoids the
rent issue.

and on a permanent foundation.

Ummm, I assume you mean a concrete slab with cinderblock skirting?

In any case, unlike traditional housing, a trailer will do nothing but
depreciate. You would be far better off financially by using your financial
resources towards a smaller starter home. Especially with all the downpayment
and other assistance programs available.

The decision is obviously yours, but you need to go into it with the facts.

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:32:40 -0600, in misc.consumers.house "Clark W. Griswold,
Jr." wrote:

wrote:

I guess I failed to mention that I would be putting it on private land

Assuming the land is yours or you have made other arrangements, that avoids the
rent issue.

and on a permanent foundation.

Ummm, I assume you mean a concrete slab with cinderblock skirting?

In any case, unlike traditional housing, a trailer will do nothing but
depreciate. You would be far better off financially by using your financial
resources towards a smaller starter home. Especially with all the downpayment
and other assistance programs available.

The decision is obviously yours, but you need to go into it with the facts.


Manufactured homes on acreage appreciate in value. But after living in one for
ten years and having the kitchen cupboards fall apart and having to go to an RV
store to get plumbing parts and having rats tunnel under the skirting and
nesting in the underhouse insulation I'd rather be in a stick built home.

I'm in a stick built home now and the kitchen cupboards are 34 years old and in
much better shape then the 10 year old ones in my mobile.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:32:40 -0600, in misc.consumers.house "Clark W.
Griswold,
Jr." wrote:

wrote:

I guess I failed to mention that I would be putting it on private land

Assuming the land is yours or you have made other arrangements, that
avoids the
rent issue.

and on a permanent foundation.

Ummm, I assume you mean a concrete slab with cinderblock skirting?

In any case, unlike traditional housing, a trailer will do nothing but
depreciate. You would be far better off financially by using your
financial
resources towards a smaller starter home. Especially with all the
downpayment
and other assistance programs available.

The decision is obviously yours, but you need to go into it with the
facts.


Manufactured homes on acreage appreciate in value. But after living in
one for
snip
I too have only heard that mobile homes depreciate in value. My grandparents
had one.. theirs never did appreciate. Makes sense too.. I mean, if you have
to buy a mobile home.. who would buy a used one?
Buy a regular home, IMO.

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:52:46 GMT, in misc.consumers.house "Lucy"
wrote:


Manufactured homes on acreage appreciate in value. But after living in
one for
snip
I too have only heard that mobile homes depreciate in value. My grandparents
had one.. theirs never did appreciate. Makes sense too.. I mean, if you have
to buy a mobile home.. who would buy a used one?
Buy a regular home, IMO.




Mine appreciated in value.. it's not just something that "I heard".

In article ,
"Lucy" wrote:

I too have only heard that mobile homes depreciate in value. My grandparents
had one.. theirs never did appreciate. Makes sense too.. I mean, if you have
to buy a mobile home.. who would buy a used one?
Buy a regular home, IMO.

Why spend 10 to 20 times the money to get a "regular" house
when a manufactured home keeps you just as dry and comfortable?

And lets do some math. Lets say I buy a luxurious top of the
line mobile home for $30,000. And I live in in 30 years. Lets
say it has zero value and the end of the 30 years (according to
your scenario). So, by living there, it has cost me about $1000
per year, and I have no investment.

Compare that to a regular house in the city that costs $300,000.
To live in this house, you have to pay $1800 a month, plus a
few thousand a year in taxes and insurance. You end up paying
hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest. In fact, you
pay almost twice per month of what the other house costs per
year to live in.

In fact, if you put that $1800 per month into a regular house,
you end up with a 30 year old regular house worth maybe $300K
that needs 30 years of maintenance and updating.

On the other hand, if you bought the mobile home, you have
a livable house worth nothing, but if you invested that $1800
a month wisely at 6%, you end up with a nest egg worth nearly
$2,000,000.

So, to avoid losing $30,000 in value on a manufactured home,
you foolishly suggest a "regular" house, when in fact, the
decision to buy that regular house cost you over a million
and a half dollars in missed profits. Making that kind of
mistake should be a criminal offense.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

"John A. Weeks III" writes:

In fact, if you put that $1800 per month into a regular house,
you end up with a 30 year old regular house worth maybe $300K
that needs 30 years of maintenance and updating.

You are assuming 0% RE appreciation rate over 30 years.
That's a pretty bad assumption given recent history.

On the other hand, if you bought the mobile home, you have
a livable house worth nothing, but if you invested that $1800
a month wisely at 6%, you end up with a nest egg worth nearly
$2,000,000.

If OTOH we assume 10% RE appreciation rate over that same 30 years,
I end up with a much bigger nest egg: $300K * (1.1 ** 30) = $5.2M

I can now sell that house, buy a new manufactured house for $300,000
(which is will probably cost then), and lugh at your puny $2M
nest egg.

So, to avoid losing $30,000 in value on a manufactured home,
you foolishly suggest a "regular" house, when in fact, the
decision to buy that regular house cost you over a million
and a half dollars in missed profits. Making that kind of
mistake should be a criminal offense.

If you could reliably predict appreciation rate of stocks/bonds/RE,
you could become billionaire no matter what.

If you can't, you may come out ahead, or behind the guy who buys
"real house", but I don't think you should go to jail either way

Cheers,
--
In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.
Remove /-nsp/ for email.

"John A. Weeks III" wrote:

And lets do some math. Lets say I buy a luxurious top of the
line mobile home for $30,000. And I live in in 30 years. Lets
say it has zero value and the end of the 30 years (according to
your scenario). So, by living there, it has cost me about $1000
per year, and I have no investment.

Compare that to a regular house in the city that costs $300,000.
To live in this house, you have to pay $1800 a month, plus a
few thousand a year in taxes and insurance. You end up paying
hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest. In fact, you
pay almost twice per month of what the other house costs per
year to live in.

In fact, if you put that $1800 per month into a regular house,
you end up with a 30 year old regular house worth maybe $300K
that needs 30 years of maintenance and updating.

On the other hand, if you bought the mobile home, you have
a livable house worth nothing, but if you invested that $1800
a month wisely at 6%, you end up with a nest egg worth nearly
$2,000,000.

So, to avoid losing $30,000 in value on a manufactured home,
you foolishly suggest a "regular" house, when in fact, the
decision to buy that regular house cost you over a million
and a half dollars in missed profits. Making that kind of
mistake should be a criminal offense.

Missed profits? What passes for financial education in this country is the
criminal offense.

To compare your two scenarios on an equal basis, you have to assume that both
transactions are cash deals. Traditional housing in the US has historically
appreciated at a minimum 5% annual rate over the long term. Current market
aside, its reasonable to assume that will continue. We'll also assume that $30K
includes land, or rent free use thereof, which is unlikely.

I agree, that $30K trailer will be worth nothing at the end of 30 years. The
300K house OTOH, will likely be worth at least $1.3 million at the same 30 year
point - not "maybe $300K.". Even subtracting the difference in maintenance and
taxes, there is no comparison.

Your math above makes no sense. You seem to be saying that you can live in a
trailer for free and invest a $1800 mortgage payment elsewhere, resulting in an
end result of $2M. That doesn't work.

Let's move on to a financed deal. Last time I looked, mortgages on trailers
carry higher interest rates than standard mortgages, and the term is
significantly shorter. That means someone financing a trailer will end up with
an out of pocket amount each month not much more than a standard mortgage.

Furthermore, many states offer special underwriting programs for first time home
buyers that reduce the currently low rates even further.

Quality of life? Sound insulation? Thermal insulation? There's no comparison.

Look - I don't sell houses or trailers, but I can do basic math. I'd like to see
one competent financial authority that suggests that as a rule trailers are
better financial deals than traditional houses.

There are lots of people living in "manufactured homes" these days, for lots of
valid reasons. Appreciation and investing any difference in the market aren't
likely to be those reasons.

In article ,
John A. Weeks III wrote:

Why spend 10 to 20 times the money to get a "regular" house
when a manufactured home keeps you just as dry and comfortable?

And lets do some math. Lets say I buy a luxurious top of the
line mobile home for $30,000. And I live in in 30 years. Lets
say it has zero value and the end of the 30 years (according to
your scenario). So, by living there, it has cost me about $1000
per year, and I have no investment.

Compare that to a regular house in the city that costs $300,000.
To live in this house, you have to pay $1800 a month, plus a
few thousand a year in taxes and insurance. You end up paying
hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest. In fact, you
pay almost twice per month of what the other house costs per
year to live in.


That $300K house also includes the land, which you are going to need
even if you own a manufactured home.


I'd look at it in terms of how much it would cost to build a traditional
home versus how much it costs to buy a mobile home. I suspect that the
mobile home will be cheaper, but not to the extent that you've outlined.


Dimitri

In article ,
Paul Pluzhnikov wrote:

"John A. Weeks III" writes:

In fact, if you put that $1800 per month into a regular house,
you end up with a 30 year old regular house worth maybe $300K
that needs 30 years of maintenance and updating.

You are assuming 0% RE appreciation rate over 30 years.
That's a pretty bad assumption given recent history.

You are right, bad assumption. A bunch of undesirables
could move into your neighborhood and depress the
housing values. Or you could lose your job and be
forced to sell after the bubble bursts, and you lose
your butt on the deal. Or you picked a city like
Flint, Michigan, and all the plants in town close
down, and you cannot sell the house no matter how
cheap you offer it, and it ends up on E-bay unable
to get a minimum bid of $1500.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." wrote in message
...
"John A. Weeks III" wrote:

And lets do some math. Lets say I buy a luxurious top of the
line mobile home for $30,000. And I live in in 30 years. Lets
say it has zero value and the end of the 30 years (according to
your scenario). So, by living there, it has cost me about $1000
per year, and I have no investment.

Compare that to a regular house in the city that costs $300,000.
To live in this house, you have to pay $1800 a month, plus a
few thousand a year in taxes and insurance. You end up paying
hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest. In fact, you
pay almost twice per month of what the other house costs per
year to live in.

In fact, if you put that $1800 per month into a regular house,
you end up with a 30 year old regular house worth maybe $300K
that needs 30 years of maintenance and updating.

On the other hand, if you bought the mobile home, you have
a livable house worth nothing, but if you invested that $1800
a month wisely at 6%, you end up with a nest egg worth nearly
$2,000,000.

So, to avoid losing $30,000 in value on a manufactured home,
you foolishly suggest a "regular" house, when in fact, the
decision to buy that regular house cost you over a million
and a half dollars in missed profits. Making that kind of
mistake should be a criminal offense.

Missed profits? What passes for financial education in this country is the
criminal offense.

To compare your two scenarios on an equal basis, you have to assume that
both
transactions are cash deals. Traditional housing in the US has
historically
appreciated at a minimum 5% annual rate over the long term. Current market
aside, its reasonable to assume that will continue. We'll also assume that
$30K
includes land, or rent free use thereof, which is unlikely.

I agree, that $30K trailer will be worth nothing at the end of 30 years.
The
300K house OTOH, will likely be worth at least $1.3 million at the same 30
year
point - not "maybe $300K.". Even subtracting the difference in maintenance
and
taxes, there is no comparison.

Your math above makes no sense. You seem to be saying that you can live in
a
trailer for free and invest a $1800 mortgage payment elsewhere, resulting
in an
end result of $2M. That doesn't work.

Let's move on to a financed deal. Last time I looked, mortgages on
trailers
carry higher interest rates than standard mortgages, and the term is
significantly shorter. That means someone financing a trailer will end up
with
an out of pocket amount each month not much more than a standard mortgage.

Furthermore, many states offer special underwriting programs for first
time home
buyers that reduce the currently low rates even further.

Quality of life? Sound insulation? Thermal insulation? There's no
comparison.

Look - I don't sell houses or trailers, but I can do basic math. I'd like
to see
one competent financial authority that suggests that as a rule trailers
are
better financial deals than traditional houses.

There are lots of people living in "manufactured homes" these days, for
lots of
valid reasons. Appreciation and investing any difference in the market
aren't
likely to be those reasons.

There was a lot of faulty logic at work. No taxes were assessed on the
mobile home's land, and comparing a mobile home to a 300k house was nuts,
instead of one a little less expensive than a house. In addition to him not
mentioning taxes on land, he also assumed someone living in a mobile home
does so by choice, instead of due to financial circumstances. I feel safe in
saying most people living in trailers dont have an extra 1800. per month
lying around to invest, much less likely is finding 6% (outside of stocks).
But such is the nature of newsgroups.. there is always at least one person
who defies logic.
lucy

In article , spamtrap100
@comcast.net says...
wrote:

and on a permanent foundation.

Ummm, I assume you mean a concrete slab with cinderblock skirting?

Manufactured houses can be installed on real foundations, not just
slabs and cinderblock. The better-quality modern units are a huge
step above manufactured homes of a few decades ago -- installed well,
to the casual observer they're almost indistinguishable from site-
built homes. They meet building, seismic, and energy codes, use
standard plumbing and wiring fixtures, etc. And I've seen enough of
them on the market to know that they definitely can appreciate if
installed properly and maintained well.

One thing opponents of manufactured housing never seem to mention is
that the primary driver of appreciation isn't the building itself,
but location, location, location. Does the neighborhood feel like a
trailer park, or is the house in a neighborhood of $500,000 homes?

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

In article , spamtrap100
@comcast.net says...

Let's move on to a financed deal. Last time I looked, mortgages on trailers
carry higher interest rates than standard mortgages, and the term is
significantly shorter. That means someone financing a trailer will end up with
an out of pocket amount each month not much more than a standard mortgage.

I don't sell homes, site-built or manufactured, but I insure both,
and buyers definitely can get 25- and 30-year, 5%-down mortgages on
manufactured homes. When I've discussed it with clients, the lower
cost of the house more than offsets the slightly higher rate. The
last one I remember was just over 7% for a $60,000 double-wide on a
half-acre with a view.

Now, to be clear, this applies to modern manufactured homes, built to
modern codes, on permanent foundations, on owned land. If you want
to buy a single-wide and keep the axles on, you'll still be stuck
with a personal-property loan instead of a mortgage.

Quality of life? Sound insulation? Thermal insulation? There's no comparison.

Thermal insulation is comparable to site-built homes under current
energy code for approved manufactured homes. Sound insulation is
good in better-quality models, 2x6 framing for exterior walls, 2x4
interior walls with drywall, pretty close to stick-built standards.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

In article ,
says...

You are right, bad assumption. A bunch of undesirables
could move into your neighborhood and depress the
housing values. Or you could lose your job and be
forced to sell after the bubble bursts, and you lose
your butt on the deal. Or you picked a city like
Flint, Michigan, and all the plants in town close
down, and you cannot sell the house no matter how
cheap you offer it, and it ends up on E-bay unable
to get a minimum bid of $1500.

This has *GOT* to be a troll.


-Tim

In article v5BPe.1024$mH.926@fed1read07,
mers (The Enigmatic One) wrote:

In article ,
says...

You are right, bad assumption. A bunch of undesirables
could move into your neighborhood and depress the
housing values. Or you could lose your job and be
forced to sell after the bubble bursts, and you lose
your butt on the deal. Or you picked a city like
Flint, Michigan, and all the plants in town close
down, and you cannot sell the house no matter how
cheap you offer it, and it ends up on E-bay unable
to get a minimum bid of $1500.

This has *GOT* to be a troll.

How so? The real estate people today are sounding just
like the stock market people back in 1999. I clearly
remember them saying it was a new economy, stocks can
only go up, and Worldcom is a bargain at 125. Just like
most investors lost their a** in the stock market in
2000, most real estate speculators are going to lose
their a** very soon, and many common poeple are going
to get hurt when the bubble breaks.

I would advocate that a person who pays cash for a
reasonable manufactured home is going to be far better
off in the long run than a person who takes out a no
money down variable rate loan on a $300K starter home
(which is where the market is at where I live).

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

I had a Wasau home back in the late 80's. It was the most comfortable
house I've ever lived in. I would still be there if it weren't for job
changes.

The interior was drywalled and looked just like a stick built home, non
of that old crappy paneling with vaulted ceilings that was so prevelant
in the 70's. The quality of materials far exceeded what was being put
in local stick built homes.

I wouldn't hesitate to evaluate this option again. As for deals and
cost savings -- you have to put the numbers together and compare. You
have to do the homework to contact current customers of the home you
decide on...CHECK references from the dealer you choose to go with.

YMMV -- but my experience was a positive one. Best of luck...

Darwin

John A. Weeks III wrote:
How so? The real estate people today are sounding just
like the stock market people back in 1999. I clearly
remember them saying it was a new economy, stocks can
only go up, and Worldcom is a bargain at 125. Just like
most investors lost their a** in the stock market in
2000, most real estate speculators are going to lose
their a** very soon, and many common poeple are going
to get hurt when the bubble breaks.

Ah but there's a breed of investors that are quietly buying at rock
bottom prices and literally can't lose. All those over priced (50-100K)
manufactured homes out there are getting repo'ed left and right. The
few lenders that loan on manufactuered homes (greentree, vanderbilt,
etc) have to get them moved...and moved at low prices. 10-15% of retail
price for homes under 10 years old is very common. Don't bother going
to dealers seeking repo's as they charge inflated prices. If you're
prepared to pay cash the rent on these places alone can pay them off in
2-4 years. The more of a fix-er-up model you buy the better the ROI. Go
direct to the lenders and speak to their remarketing (repo) dept. They
have lists of available homes in your area. Spend some time reviewing
the available homes and don't be afraid to bid way below their "asking"
price. You'll spend more on the land under the home than you will for
the home itself. As for all the people who smirk about 5-10% annual
appreciation on those high priced homes. I'll buy the cheap repo's and
rent'em out with 25-50% annual ROI's. Plow the money back into more
repo homes and wait for the coming real estate crash to really swell
the repo market.

"DAC" wrote:

I had a Wasau home back in the late 80's. It was the most comfortable
house I've ever lived in. I would still be there if it weren't for job
changes.


Wasua homes are very high quality factory built homes. Walls and other major
structures get built in the factory, using standard wood, etc., and get trucked
to the site where they get installed on a standard foundation. WHen completed,
you would have a difficult time identifiering any differences from a traditional
home. In some cases, they are even stronger as they must stand being trucked to
the site.

They should not be confused with a trailer, euphemistically called a
"manufactured home" by the manufacturers.