Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could be completely different.

--
Tip: Don't substitute salt for sugar in recipes.
It tastes like ****.

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

Daniel

On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks though.

--
Is a castrated pig disgruntled?

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Daniel

On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

--
A patient tells the Doctor, "I've been going to a faith healer, but wasn't getting any better."
The Doctor smiled and said, "And what dumb advice did this phony give you?"
"He told me to come see you." replied the new patient.

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find
any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill
could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Daniel

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply, presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

--
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. -- Carl Sagan

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
--
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on
evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. -- Carl Sagan

Look! There are no real mathematicians working on that! -- Carl Sagan,
refering to meta-logics (i.e. Goedel's incompleteness theorems).

TBA indeed

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes
at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Daniel

On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:



Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed you were telling me.

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the supply is not fully loaded.

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

--
English German
Indicators ---- Die Blinkenleiten Tickentocken
Bonnet ---- Pullnob und Knucklechopper
Exhaust ---- Die Spitzenpoppenbangentuben
Speedometer ---- Der Egobooster und Linenshooter
Clutch ---- Die Kuplink mit schlippen und shaken
Puncture ---- Die Phlatt mit Bludy****en
Learner Driver ---- Die ****ten mit Elplatz
Estate Car ---- Der Bagmooroomfurshagginauto
Parking Meter ---- Der Tennerpinscher und Klockenwerr
Windscreen Wiper ---- Der Flippenflappenmuckenschpredder
Footbrake ---- Der Edbangeronvindschreen Stoppend
Gear Lever ---- Biggen Sticken fur Kangaroochoppen
Breathalyser ---- Die Pu titintem fur Pistenarsen
Seat Belt ---- Der Klunkenklikker Frauleintrapper
Headlights ---- Das Dippendontdazzleyubastad
Exhaust Fumes ---- Der Koffenundschpittpoluter
Highway Code ---- Der Wipan fur Arsen
Fog Warning ---- Die Puttenlegdownen und Fukkit
Traffic Jam ---- Die Bluddifukkink Dammundblast
Rear Seat ---- Der Schpringentester
Backfire ---- Der Lowdenbangenmekkenjumpen
Articulated Lorry ---- Der Fukkengrett Trukken
Accident ---- Der Bleedinmess
Near Accident ---- Der Fukken Near Schittsenselfen
Service Station ---- Der Heiway Robberungen
Cyclist ---- Der Pedallpushink Pilloken
Double White lines ---- Overtakenund Krunchen

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:



Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more
capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very
little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

Daniel

On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:00:36 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:





What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the mains input?

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more
capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very
little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

It is. Those things run 24/7.

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

--
What's a diaphragm?
A trampoline for dickheads.

On 23/04/14 07:01, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:00:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:





What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more
nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power
supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the
mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

Active PFC might be changing how a transistor "appears" (more
capacitive
or less capacitive) to fix the phase angle.

And, as I typed earlier, your little power supply would have very
little
effect on the phase angle of your homes mains supply!!

How about ten 850W power supplies?

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

It is. Those things run 24/7.

Do you switch on lights at night?? That'll effect the mains supply current.
Do you have a refrigerator that turns on and off?? That'll effect the
mains supply current.
How about a heater/electric blanket, etc., etc., etc.

Now, when your refrigerator's (inductive) motor switches on, now that
might have a noticeably affect, but, in the greater scheme of your
regional Power companies operations, zero effect!!

Or my industrial grade meat freezer.

What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 23/04/14 07:01, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:00:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:








But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.



I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the
mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

No it isn't, I mean these ones: http://www.o-digital.com/uploads/217...tor_X2_358.jpg

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

You said "very little effect on the phase angle of your homes mains
supply!!" It's probably 90% of my home's supply.

At some particular moment, you might be correct that the power supply is
having this great effect, but over a day/week I doubt it would be
anything like 90%!

It is. Those things run 24/7.

Do you switch on lights at night?? That'll effect the mains supply current.
Do you have a refrigerator that turns on and off?? That'll effect the
mains supply current.
How about a heater/electric blanket, etc., etc., etc.

Nothing like the kW used by those PSUs.

What's that, another 10kW!! WOW!! or rather Whoopee!! And remember the
freezer motor is not working 24/7 (or at least it shouldn't be), so its
real power consumption would be much lower, maybe 1kW at most!!

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

--
My childbirth instructor says it's not pain I'll feel during labour, but pressure. Is she right?
Yes, in the same way that a tornado might be called an air current.

On 24/04/14 04:06, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 23/04/14 07:01, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:00:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:








But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at
home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I
assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.



I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input
cycle,
not the input voltage!!

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the
mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

No it isn't, I mean these ones:
http://www.o-digital.com/uploads/217...tor_X2_358.jpg

Sorry, my mistake.

10 x 850 watt power supplies, total 8.5kW, from a 240V supply takes
about 35Amps, .... and lets double that to allow for transformer and
other circuitry loses = 70Amps!! Whoopee!! from your regional Power
Company, which probably supplies THOUSANDS of Amps!!

Snip

Yes, I was just pointing out I have a ridiculous freezer.

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Daniel

On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:59:28 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 24/04/14 04:06, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 23/04/14 07:01, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:00:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
snip


snip

snip


snip

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

Only if they're military.


snip

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input
cycle,
not the input voltage!!

I see. So this is seperate from the yellow one connected across the
mains input?

Yes, the "yellow one connected across the mains input" is a bridge
rectifier, which converts the AC Sinewave input into single polarity
pulses at twice the mains supply frequency.

No it isn't, I mean these ones:
http://www.o-digital.com/uploads/217...tor_X2_358.jpg

Sorry, my mistake.

snip

Snip

snip
Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

--
Today's woman puts on wigs, fake eyelashes, false fingernails, sixteen pounds of assorted make-up/shadows/blushes/creams, living bras, various pads that would make a linebacker envious, has implants and assorted other surgeries, then complains that she cannot find a "real" man.

On 24/04/14 23:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:59:28 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 24/04/14 04:06, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

snip

Wacko!!

It hasn't got food in it.

So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

Are you Scandinavian or something?? Straight from Sauna into Cold water!!

Daniel

On Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:01:28 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 24/04/14 23:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:59:28 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 24/04/14 04:06, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:20:40 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

snip

snip
So what's it doing "On", apart from wasting energy??

Keeping water cool.

How much water, and for what purpose??

Three quarters of a tonne. I like cold baths.

Are you Scandinavian or something?? Straight from Sauna into Cold water!!

Without the sauna. If you read up on it it's very good for you. It increases your immune system, it makes you feel full of energy for the next few days, and it burns off a ****load of calories. I sit in it while watching telly.

--
I used to not get along with my mother-in-law, but over the last few
months, I've developed quite an attachment for her. It goes over her
head, and a strap comes down under her chin to keep her mouth shut.

"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill could
be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on point
in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

In the 80s there were hundreds of thousands of TVs with half wave thyristor
buck regulators - the generating companies weren't happy.

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at
the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.


Active PFC is basically a flyback boost regulator with no reservoir cap
between it and the bridge rectifier.

With no reservoir cap, there's no blips on the peaks and the switching
pulses current amplitude more or less track the mains cycle amplitude.

There is still a main reservoir cap, but its after the PFC, and usually
rated 450V rather than the more usual 385V or so.

The passive one I saw was nothing more than a bloody great iron cored choke
on the AC in to the bridge rectifier.

"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/04/14 05:03, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:17:45 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 18/04/14 22:45, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:48:36 +0100, Daniel

wrote:

On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:



Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

You can get power supplies with "active PFC" which is presumably what
you just described. However the cheap ones have "passive PFC" or no
PFC, so presumably they just top up the bulk capacitors at the peak
of
each waveform. A basic transformer and rectifier will do the same.

What's "PFC" when it's at home?? Power Factor Correction maybe!!

I know that.

But *I* didn't, which is why I asked "What's "PFC" when it's at home??"

When you immediately answered yourself, with two shriek marks, I assumed
you were telling me.

What part of the world are you from?? In some parts of the world, the
first thing people might think when they hear "PFC" would be "Private
First Class"!!

To the mains supply, most things look like Inductors, which means the
voltage waveform and the current waveforms are not in phase. Power
Factor Correction simple means that capacitors are switched in to
counter-act the Inductance, so the Voltage and Current are more nearly
in phase.

And at different power level draws from the output of the power supply,
presumably a different capacitance is ended to correct it. Active PFC
probably changes it accordingly. Or adjusts the other type of power
factor which you haven't mentioned - wave clipping.

I'm guessing just one, very big, capacitor which can handle the
filtering task for all loads up to the Power Supply's rating.

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is *Switched
On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the supply's output
(Current/Voltage) is falling below the required (Current/Voltage), the
Switching element/transistor is switched on for more of the input cycle,
not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour tellies.

On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators",
I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com
from about the eighties!!)

Daniel

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:
Can someone confirm that power factor is NOT taken into consideration
for domestic supplies? I have a feeling it isn't, but I can't find
any
information on the internet. If it matters, it's a modern (5 years
old) electronic meter I have. The power factor in my house is an
average of 0.7 so depending if it's charged for or not, my bill
could be
completely different.

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

In the 80s there were hundreds of thousands of TVs with half wave
thyristor buck regulators - the generating companies weren't happy.

Daniel

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed" there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory) would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel out clipping.


--
There are 2 kinds of people in this world. Those that want to get ahead, and those that just want to get head.

"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck regulators", I
say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American T.V. sit-com from
about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you would
be tedious and futile.

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes at
the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty PFC
capacitor in there to filter spikes.

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction, Note
that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on the grid
and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it does cost
them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't cancel
out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.

Ron

wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters for
the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction, Note
that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on the grid
and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it does cost
them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may create a
nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not what power
factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have become
trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the rectifier
tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as power factor
correction.

On 21/05/14 02:17, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck
regulators", I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American
T.V. sit-com from about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you
would be tedious and futile.

See above were I explain the operation of SMPS, which is what Uncle
Peter was originally talking about.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_mode_power_supply

Sorry if you consider it "tedious and futile".

Daniel

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/14 23:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:50:32 +0100, Daniel

wrote:

On 17/04/14 10:07, Uncle Peter wrote:

When I last dealt with this, power generator companies "assumed"
there
would be an average power factor and set up their generators to
handle
that. Your individual house (or, probably, even a small factory)
would
not cause much variation in that power factor, considering the
generators are probably supplying hundreds of thousands of homes
at the
same time!!

That won't apply to switched mode power supplies clipping off the
peaks
though.

Wouldn't cause a very big blip in the grander scheme of things.

And what SMPS clips off the peaks?? Usually they vary the switch on
point in the A.C. waveform.

Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Daniel

On 21/05/14 06:27, wrote:

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge) and
run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only matters
for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

Yes, your T.V. switches on and stays on for three hours, maybe, before
it's switched off. Meanwhile your 10-15-20 neighbours have also turned
on their T.V.'s and turned them off.

And your Fridge has turned on and, later, off. And your 10-15-20
neighbours' Fridges.

Etc., Etc., Etc..

The waveform on your power lines is a very complex thing!!

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

It alters the phase angle between Voltage and Current in the Power
System, which will, eventually, require the power company to take
corrective action .... which they then bill *you* for, by way of
increasing the cost of power.

Daniel

On 21/05/14 06:38, Ian Field wrote:


wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Daniel

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...




Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one probably wore out.

--
You know you're getting old when:
Your friends compliment you on your new alligator shoes and you're barefoot.

On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:40:41 +0100, Daniel wrote:

On 21/05/14 06:38, Ian Field wrote:


wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's, T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

No it isn't. It's a very good measurement of actual power produced versus heating in the wires. For example I had 5kW of computers with ****ty "what you don't call PF", and the extension cable was getting warm at 2/3rds of it's rated load. It only gets that warm at 1.5 times its rated load with heaters.

--
The dot over the letter i is called a tittle.

"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 21/05/14 02:17, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/14 07:06, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 22/04/14 04:26, Uncle Peter wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:22:39 +0100, Daniel

wrote:

Snip

But surely if it's not adjusted, then it's overcompensating when the
supply is not fully loaded.

No, in a Switched Mode Power Supply, as the load varies, it is
*Switched On* for more of less of the Alternating Cycle. If the
supply's output (Current/Voltage) is falling below the required
(Current/Voltage), the Switching element/transistor is switched on for
more of the input cycle, not the input voltage!!

You must be thinking of the thyristor buck regulators in 80s colour
tellies.

T.V.'s were never my thing, so when you say "thyristor buck
regulators", I say, "What you talking'bout, Willis?!?!" (from American
T.V. sit-com from about the eighties!!)

I'm beginning to get the impression that trying to explain it to you
would be tedious and futile.

See above were I explain the operation of SMPS, which is what Uncle Peter
was originally talking about.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_mode_power_supply

When you start on about phase control in a discussion on SMPSU and PFC,
there aren't many conclusions to be drawn!

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 20/05/14 06:53, Ian Field wrote:


"Daniel" wrote in message
...




Between each peak the reservoir cap sags a little, each peak tops it
up
againd and passes a large blip of current doing so.

Yeap, but the transformer Secondary's peak voltage must exceed the
cap's voltage to then "top-up" the capacitor.

AFAIK, current regs require a PFC front end on any switcher over 50W.

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's,
T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times, that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.

Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The ****wit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could ****!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

"Daniel" wrote in message
...
On 21/05/14 06:38, Ian Field wrote:


wrote in message
news:alpine.BSF.2.00.1405200925160.13722@bunrab...

On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

Don't know!! The impression I got was that domestic mains supplies PF
varied reasonable as it was, due to domestic fridges, fluoro's,
T.V.'s,
etc, switching on and off at different times,
They switch on/off during few cycles (allowing for a starting surge)
and run/don't run for many cycles, so the switching on & off only
matters for the overall load. The type of load does matter.

that the major power
suppliers did not worry about the domestic situation .... but in
industrial situations, yes, the major power suppliers could/would
require PF correction.
Or they bill appearant power & the major users /want/ PF correction,
Note that if you use a lot of reactive power it adds to the current on
the grid and the power company still has to put in heavier wire, so it
does cost them /something/.

On Tue, 20 May 2014, Uncle Peter wrote:
Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't cancel out clipping.
But the clipping occurs with a relatively constant phase. It may
create a nasty current waveforms which can be a problem but that's not
what power factor refers to.

Its not power factor as I understood it to be, but it appears to have
become trendy to refer to any AC current waveform distortion as a PF
issue.

In any event; the circuitry to eliminate the current blips as the
rectifier tops up the reservoir has become generally referred to as
power factor correction.

Well then, what "has become generally referred to as power factor
correction" is *WRONG*

Nevertheless - your OPINION appears to be in the minority.

On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field wrote:



"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel
wrote:







Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The ****wit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could ****!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit something that takes LEDs.

--
A budget is just a method of worrying before you spend money, as well as afterwards.

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field
wrote:



"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:


"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news On Tue, 20 May 2014 12:10:49 +0100, Daniel

wrote:







Inductive and capacitive cancel each other out in a street. You
can't
cancel out clipping.

When I put an electronic ballast in the bog luminaire, I left the
hefty
PFC capacitor in there to filter spikes.

Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The ****wit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could ****!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least
the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple
of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I
mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a couple
of carrier bags.

While LED bulbs are still at least £9.99 and I'd need 3 to give the same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed unit that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.

Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W - 3 of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

Just out of curiosity - does a GU10 fit in the socket for a florescent
starter?

On Wed, 21 May 2014 20:25:54 +0100, Ian Field wrote:



"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 21 May 2014 16:25:19 +0100, Ian Field
wrote:



"Uncle Peter" wrote in message
news On Wed, 21 May 2014 13:26:32 +0100, Daniel
wrote:

On 21/05/14 02:21, Ian Field wrote:








Sorry, your bug zapper already had a PFC capacitor *AND* you had to add
"electronic ballast"!!

Something seems wrong there!!!

Electronic ballasts are more efficient. And the non-electronic one
probably wore out.

The ****wit electrician that installed the luminare fitted the wrong
ballast, from day one the florescent tube did a fair bit of buzzing and
flickering before it started - it got so much worse that I had a problem
waiting for the light to come on so I could ****!

I tried an electronic starter, there was still a long wait but at least
the
light came on eventually without a major drama.

When the tube refused to strike at all, I bought a new tube and an
electronic ballast on Ebay. The old tube worked OK with the electronic
ballast and I got more or less its life expectancy from there.

When the fire alarm contractors did the corridor lights, I won a couple
of
spare electronic ballasts and tubes, as well as the photo-sensor I
mentioned
on chatter.

When one of my fluorescent fittings dies, I remove the fitting and fit
something that takes LEDs.

The housing association insisted on a splashproof luminare in the bog - I
only just managed to persuade the electrician not to put one in the kitchen
too.

Who gives a **** what they insist on? When he leaves, remove it.

A few years ago Morrisons did a special offer of CFLs for 99p - then
extended the offer to buy one get one free, at that price I filled a couple
of carrier bags.

While LED bulbs are still at least £9.99 and I'd need 3 to give the same
light as a CFL, there isn't much incentive to make the change.

£15 gives you 150W equivalent. £10 gives you 100W equivalent. £3 gives you 50W equivalent. And that's including postage.

There's not much point figuring out a conversion for the enclosed unit that
I have 2 spare ballasts and 2 spare tubes for - way back when I bought
replacement parts, there weren't the options that are available now.

Might start visiting the dump again - if I can salvage a few GU10 fittings,
Home Bargains sometimes have 5W bulbs that are allegedly equal to 40W - 3 of
those in the bog fitting should be plenty.

LEDs that fit in GU10s run very hot and don't last long. I've gone off CREE LEDs and go for the corn on the cob ones. Hundreds of tiny SMD LEDs.

Just out of curiosity - does a GU10 fit in the socket for a florescent
starter?

I can't tell you that as I gave away my 4 spare starters on freecycle, and for some reason the only remaining ballast fluorescent here (under a kitchen wall unit) has no starter I can see. Unless it's hidden on the side against the floor of the cupboard, or internal. They do look similar sockets though.

--
I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same god who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them -- Galileo Galilei