Jack wrote:
Hi.
Looking for info on a simple technique of protecting a small (solid
state) radio from supply voltage spikes.
I have an old classic truck with 6 volt (neg ground) electrics. The
old tube radio is now toast ..well, too expensive to fix: power
transformer appears shot.
I want to sub the guts of a more modern trans radio into it and that
radio also runs on 6 volts (4 c cells). However, I am a tad leary of
destroying the new radio by the voltage spikes that the generator
will produce during charging: up to 8.5 volts. I need something to
smooth out the voltage.
I was thinking of using an LM317 to regulate the radio but I suspect
it won't work properly as the supply will vary from 5.8-8.5 volts.
So, I was also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure
how to go about that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc.

Any (simple) ideas are appreciated.

There's a guy by the name of Gary Tayman (Tayman Electrics) who 'guts' old
original auto radios and rebuilds them with modern electronics. When he's
done, you can't tell the difference until you turn it on...beautiful work.
All the original controls (even push-button tuning...even
motorized--'Wonderbar'--tuning) are still functional. He even installs
high-powered stereo amplifiers if desired, with inputs for tape or CD
sources. AM radios are converted to AM/FM stereo, and controls for
concealed CD changer can be included.

It's not cheap, but it 'is' simple.

http://www.gate.net/%7Egtayman/stereo.htm

jak

Jack

Jack wrote:
I know of Gary's stuff. However, I've sunk in too much $$ into the
old tuber to effect repairs. So now to turn around and buy an
expensive (commercially made) retrofit is not in the cards as the
truck is way past original. So having a functioning tuber radio is
not that important to me. The truck's a daily driver.

How about a simple electonic solution (that I can make) to boost the
6vdc supply to 12vdc so I can sub a newer dash deck (only) in place
of the old tuber?

They used to be fairly common when manufacturers were switching to 12v
systems. I remember when I sold car stereo back in the 70's that they were
still around--a box which would either convert 6v to 12v, or convert 12v
positive ground to negative. They must still be out there somewhere. Try
J.C. Whitney or some other classic car enthusiast catalog.

Otherwise, it's a fairly simple multivibrator circuit to convert the 6v d.c.
to a.c., then step it up to 18v or therabouts and then
rectify/filter/regulate it to clean 12v d.c. I've never seen a schematic,
but someone on this group might be able to help.

Converting the trucks electrical system to 12v would give you some benefits
beyond the easy addition of modern gadgets, as well....

jak


Jack



"jakdedert" wrote in message
. ..
Jack wrote:
Hi.
Looking for info on a simple technique of protecting a small (solid
state) radio from supply voltage spikes.
I have an old classic truck with 6 volt (neg ground) electrics. The
old tube radio is now toast ..well, too expensive to fix: power
transformer appears shot.
I want to sub the guts of a more modern trans radio into it and that
radio also runs on 6 volts (4 c cells). However, I am a tad leary
of destroying the new radio by the voltage spikes that the generator
will produce during charging: up to 8.5 volts. I need something to
smooth out the voltage.
I was thinking of using an LM317 to regulate the radio but I suspect
it won't work properly as the supply will vary from 5.8-8.5 volts.
So, I was also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure
how to go about that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc.

Any (simple) ideas are appreciated.

There's a guy by the name of Gary Tayman (Tayman Electrics) who
'guts' old original auto radios and rebuilds them with modern
electronics. When he's done, you can't tell the difference until
you turn it on...beautiful work. All the original controls (even
push-button tuning...even motorized--'Wonderbar'--tuning) are still
functional. He even installs high-powered stereo amplifiers if
desired, with inputs for tape or CD sources. AM radios are
converted to AM/FM stereo, and controls for concealed CD changer can
be included.

It's not cheap, but it 'is' simple.

http://www.gate.net/%7Egtayman/stereo.htm

jak

Jack

So, I was
also intrigued with the idea of using a zener but not sure how to go about
that.
The radio appears to draw a max of 100 ma @ 6 vdc.

Jack-

As Chris pointed out, the radio should still function when the four C cells are
down to about 5 volts. Since fresh C cells are about 1.55V, I would go for a
6.2 volt zener diode. Remember, it is acting as a limiter rather than an
absolute regulator.

Series resistance is chosen for (5.8V - 5V)/0.1A = 8 Ohms. Maximum current in
the resistor occurs with input of 8.5V, I = (8.5-6.2)/8 = 0.2875A. Maximum
power is P = ((8.5-6.2)^2)/8 = 0.66125W. I would choose an 8.2 Ohm 2 watt
minimum resistor, preferably wire-wound rather than carbon. (Carbon has poor
aging characteristics.)

Zener power is maximum when the radio is off. P = 6.2V * 0.2875A = 1.7825W. I
would look for a three to five watt 6.2 volt zener diode with wire leads. If
you want to heat-sink it, I believe there is a ten watt stud-mounted "R"
(anode-to-stud) diode available if you search for it. Otherwise you would have
to insulate the stud of the standard cathode-to-stud configuration.

Fred

On 10 Sep 2004 17:26:40 GMT, Ol' Duffer wrote:

In article ,
says...
snip
(The main reason the industry switch to 12v systems, 6v batteries just
could not hold up under constant use and the variable charge rates as
well as being limited in the amount of loads from the ever increasing
number of system accessories that were being added to cars.)

Actually, the underlying reason is that you need more
current to do the same amount of work at low voltage.
It was taking like 2 ga. wire for starter motors on
some of the larger engines, but at 12V you can do the
job with 4 or 6 ga. All the connectors had to be
beefier at 6V, corrosion and wire/connector resistance
were more problematic.

Copper wire being an expensive and [potentially] short
supply strategic material, the military bumped most of
their systems on up to 24/28 Volts.

And we may have not heard the last of it. There has
been talk of going to 42 Volts to power the increasing
demand of proliferating electronics in automotives.
It is unclear how this might be implemented, as this
is above what is normally considered "consumer safe"
low voltage. Check one of *those* with your tongue!

There was a time when a solid state 6v regulator could be
had, as well as a decent 6v altenator.

Check the rebuilders, like Jebco and Triodiode. You can
still get 6V regulators, reverse polarity diode packs, etc.

Yes NOW, but at one time, especially in the late 70's and most of the
80's you'd have to go service that specialized in parts restoration
for antiques. 6v regulators couldn't be had at you're local auto parts
store.
and yes you could find a cross at your local farm implement and
tractor shop, maybe.
BTW if you take a look at the electrical design of virtually any auto
made in the past 30 years you'll see that the function of the
altenator is not to run the entire electrical system of the
engine/car, but to simply charge the battery.

Now here you are just dead wrong. Nearly all automotive
alternators since the early 70's are equipped with remote
sensing so that the alternator will maintain a nearly
constant voltage at some point other than the battery.
This is done both to reduce the amount of charge/discharge
cycling on the battery, thereby improving longevity, and
to minimize dimming of lights and similar problems that
would be associated with running from a battery in varying
states of charge. Turn something on, the alternator picks
it up right away. The only times significant current is
drawn from the battery is for starting, or at idle if you
have so much stuff turned on that the alternator won't
carry it all. Watch your ammeter if you don't believe me
(if you have one - ammeters are becoming extinct as modern
electronically regulated alternators do such a good job
you don't have to worry about it). The battery still acts
as a huge water dielectric capacitor to smooth alternator
ripple, but this is AC which has no net effect on charge
and is not hard on the battery.
Well.. if I'm so wrong try and jump off any auto with a computer/solid
state ignition and see what happens.
You HAVE to leave the jumpers on long enough to get a base charge on
the battery. i.e. you can't just jump it off and disconnect the
jumpers and have the motor run. The car being jumped IS running off
the battery of the other car, period.
In autos going back as late as the 70's the regulator acted as the
trap isolating the charging circuit from the secondary electrics, in
later models with computers they took over this function.
As for load sensing that too is a function of the computer, unless
you're referring to some of the altenators with internal electronics
for load balancing and timing. Just talk to any other mechanic about
these and you'll get the same consensus, total crap.
I mod alot of electrical systems and when I run across these, mostly
mitsubishi or nippondenso altenators, I either cross reference them to
a good marine grade non-electronic alt. with matching solid state
regulator or modify the exsisting alt. and put in an after market
brain box to match.

There are one-wire alternators made for simpler electrical
systems, like tractors, where charging the starting battery
is about all it has to do. These are not well-suited for
automotive applications, but a lot of backyard mechanics
use them in error because they are easy to hook up without
having to understand how the electrical system works.
Performance varies from fair to poor. Don't even think
about using one of these with a high-power sound system,
you won't get good results. They are disappearing even
from agricultural use as more high-demand electronics
make inroads.

You need to get up to date on your training, virtually all autos now
run on "isolated charging" electrical systems.
Don't believe me, rip out the dash board electrics of anything made in
the past 20-25 years. All low value solid state components that would
fry in a New York minute if you wired them into the charging circuit.

Doubly so with those with computer systems/fuel injection etc....
The regulator and/or the onboard electronics "traps" the charge coming
from the altenator to prevent it use in the system.(this is to prevent
damage to the electronics and engine from using fluctuating voltage.

Smoke and mirrors and fuzzy thinking. Nothing in those
sentences solid enough even to poke at.

Nothing fuzzy about it, just standard design in todays auto electrics.
A real no-no when you have an onboard computer, fuel injection and
variable valve controls. They must have smooth, clean constant voltage
to perform properly.)

That's a bit misleading. Modern engine systems have
built-in filtering and regulation where needed. They
are well hardened against anything even a poor charging
system is likely to throw at them. They may perform a
little *better* with clean power, but it usually takes
some kind of major deficiency to bring them down, and
most of the time they don't even seem to care.

Dead wrong. I've seen injector manifolds blown clean off when when
things go horribly wrong.
You have an computer it runs the injector pump, controls timing and in
the more sophisticated engine controls valve timing.
Get any of this out of sync more than a bit and you start blowing
seals.
Even more and you'll have alot more flying off.
I run Bosch Jetronic "J" type on one of my current autos, the standard
pump pressure is 85psi, however the pump I run can range as high as
150psi. You get the valve timing off or have the computer go
haywire(OR set it up wrong) on this all you'll have left is so much
scrap metal.
Seen it happen time after time.
As for most of the stock oem stuff, you're incorrect they're very
touchy when it comes to having clean power.
In fact most of the GM, Ford or Chryslers out today have safety
interlocks to prevent the engine from running on low batteries.

I Stopped just the other day to help a lady with her 04 model
Cadillac.
Her battery went down and someone was trying to help her jump it off.
Neither new what they were doing.
I had them leave the jumpers on for about thirty minutes and she
finally got it to start.(The Caddy wouldn't even start with the jumper
cables on, the computer locked the system down entirely.)

On 10 Sep 2004 17:26:40 GMT, Ol' Duffer wrote:

In article ,
says...
snip
(The main reason the industry switch to 12v systems, 6v batteries just
could not hold up under constant use and the variable charge rates as
well as being limited in the amount of loads from the ever increasing
number of system accessories that were being added to cars.)

Actually, the underlying reason is that you need more
current to do the same amount of work at low voltage.
It was taking like 2 ga. wire for starter motors on
some of the larger engines, but at 12V you can do the
job with 4 or 6 ga. All the connectors had to be
beefier at 6V, corrosion and wire/connector resistance
were more problematic.

Copper wire being an expensive and [potentially] short
supply strategic material, the military bumped most of
their systems on up to 24/28 Volts.

And we may have not heard the last of it. There has
been talk of going to 42 Volts to power the increasing
demand of proliferating electronics in automotives.
It is unclear how this might be implemented, as this
is above what is normally considered "consumer safe"
low voltage. Check one of *those* with your tongue!

There was a time when a solid state 6v regulator could be
had, as well as a decent 6v altenator.

Check the rebuilders, like Jebco and Triodiode. You can
still get 6V regulators, reverse polarity diode packs, etc.

Yes NOW, but at one time, especially in the late 70's and most of the
80's you'd have to go service that specialized in parts restoration
for antiques. 6v regulators couldn't be had at you're local auto parts
store.
and yes you could find a cross at your local farm implement and
tractor shop, maybe.
BTW if you take a look at the electrical design of virtually any auto
made in the past 30 years you'll see that the function of the
altenator is not to run the entire electrical system of the
engine/car, but to simply charge the battery.

Now here you are just dead wrong. Nearly all automotive
alternators since the early 70's are equipped with remote
sensing so that the alternator will maintain a nearly
constant voltage at some point other than the battery.
This is done both to reduce the amount of charge/discharge
cycling on the battery, thereby improving longevity, and
to minimize dimming of lights and similar problems that
would be associated with running from a battery in varying
states of charge. Turn something on, the alternator picks
it up right away. The only times significant current is
drawn from the battery is for starting, or at idle if you
have so much stuff turned on that the alternator won't
carry it all. Watch your ammeter if you don't believe me
(if you have one - ammeters are becoming extinct as modern
electronically regulated alternators do such a good job
you don't have to worry about it). The battery still acts
as a huge water dielectric capacitor to smooth alternator
ripple, but this is AC which has no net effect on charge
and is not hard on the battery.
Well.. if I'm so wrong try and jump off any auto with a computer/solid
state ignition and see what happens.
You HAVE to leave the jumpers on long enough to get a base charge on
the battery. i.e. you can't just jump it off and disconnect the
jumpers and have the motor run. The car being jumped IS running off
the battery of the other car, period.
In autos going back as late as the 70's the regulator acted as the
trap isolating the charging circuit from the secondary electrics, in
later models with computers they took over this function.
As for load sensing that too is a function of the computer, unless
you're referring to some of the altenators with internal electronics
for load balancing and timing. Just talk to any other mechanic about
these and you'll get the same consensus, total crap.
I mod alot of electrical systems and when I run across these, mostly
mitsubishi or nippondenso altenators, I either cross reference them to
a good marine grade non-electronic alt. with matching solid state
regulator or modify the exsisting alt. and put in an after market
brain box to match.

There are one-wire alternators made for simpler electrical
systems, like tractors, where charging the starting battery
is about all it has to do. These are not well-suited for
automotive applications, but a lot of backyard mechanics
use them in error because they are easy to hook up without
having to understand how the electrical system works.
Performance varies from fair to poor. Don't even think
about using one of these with a high-power sound system,
you won't get good results. They are disappearing even
from agricultural use as more high-demand electronics
make inroads.

You need to get up to date on your training, virtually all autos now
run on "isolated charging" electrical systems.
Don't believe me, rip out the dash board electrics of anything made in
the past 20-25 years. All low value solid state components that would
fry in a New York minute if you wired them into the charging circuit.

Doubly so with those with computer systems/fuel injection etc....
The regulator and/or the onboard electronics "traps" the charge coming
from the altenator to prevent it use in the system.(this is to prevent
damage to the electronics and engine from using fluctuating voltage.

Smoke and mirrors and fuzzy thinking. Nothing in those
sentences solid enough even to poke at.

Nothing fuzzy about it, just standard design in todays auto electrics.
A real no-no when you have an onboard computer, fuel injection and
variable valve controls. They must have smooth, clean constant voltage
to perform properly.)

That's a bit misleading. Modern engine systems have
built-in filtering and regulation where needed. They
are well hardened against anything even a poor charging
system is likely to throw at them. They may perform a
little *better* with clean power, but it usually takes
some kind of major deficiency to bring them down, and
most of the time they don't even seem to care.

Dead wrong. I've seen injector manifolds blown clean off when when
things go horribly wrong.
You have an computer it runs the injector pump, controls timing and in
the more sophisticated engine controls valve timing.
Get any of this out of sync more than a bit and you start blowing
seals.
Even more and you'll have alot more flying off.
I run Bosch Jetronic "J" type on one of my current autos, the standard
pump pressure is 85psi, however the pump I run can range as high as
150psi. You get the valve timing off or have the computer go
haywire(OR set it up wrong) on this all you'll have left is so much
scrap metal.
Seen it happen time after time.
As for most of the stock oem stuff, you're incorrect they're very
touchy when it comes to having clean power.
In fact most of the GM, Ford or Chryslers out today have safety
interlocks to prevent the engine from running on low batteries.

I Stopped just the other day to help a lady with her 04 model
Cadillac.
Her battery went down and someone was trying to help her jump it off.
Neither new what they were doing.
I had them leave the jumpers on for about thirty minutes and she
finally got it to start.(The Caddy wouldn't even start with the jumper
cables on, the computer locked the system down entirely.)

"gothika" wrote in message
...
On 10 Sep 2004 17:26:40 GMT, Ol' Duffer wrote:

In article ,
says...
snip
(The main reason the industry switch to 12v systems, 6v batteries just
could not hold up under constant use and the variable charge rates as
well as being limited in the amount of loads from the ever increasing
number of system accessories that were being added to cars.)

Actually, the underlying reason is that you need more
current to do the same amount of work at low voltage.
It was taking like 2 ga. wire for starter motors on
some of the larger engines, but at 12V you can do the
job with 4 or 6 ga. All the connectors had to be
beefier at 6V, corrosion and wire/connector resistance
were more problematic.

Copper wire being an expensive and [potentially] short
supply strategic material, the military bumped most of
their systems on up to 24/28 Volts.

And we may have not heard the last of it. There has
been talk of going to 42 Volts to power the increasing
demand of proliferating electronics in automotives.
It is unclear how this might be implemented, as this
is above what is normally considered "consumer safe"
low voltage. Check one of *those* with your tongue!

There was a time when a solid state 6v regulator could be
had, as well as a decent 6v altenator.

Check the rebuilders, like Jebco and Triodiode. You can
still get 6V regulators, reverse polarity diode packs, etc.

Yes NOW, but at one time, especially in the late 70's and most of the
80's you'd have to go service that specialized in parts restoration
for antiques. 6v regulators couldn't be had at you're local auto parts
store.
and yes you could find a cross at your local farm implement and
tractor shop, maybe.
BTW if you take a look at the electrical design of virtually any auto
made in the past 30 years you'll see that the function of the
altenator is not to run the entire electrical system of the
engine/car, but to simply charge the battery.

Now here you are just dead wrong. Nearly all automotive
alternators since the early 70's are equipped with remote
sensing so that the alternator will maintain a nearly
constant voltage at some point other than the battery.
This is done both to reduce the amount of charge/discharge
cycling on the battery, thereby improving longevity, and
to minimize dimming of lights and similar problems that
would be associated with running from a battery in varying
states of charge. Turn something on, the alternator picks
it up right away. The only times significant current is
drawn from the battery is for starting, or at idle if you
have so much stuff turned on that the alternator won't
carry it all. Watch your ammeter if you don't believe me
(if you have one - ammeters are becoming extinct as modern
electronically regulated alternators do such a good job
you don't have to worry about it). The battery still acts
as a huge water dielectric capacitor to smooth alternator
ripple, but this is AC which has no net effect on charge
and is not hard on the battery.
Well.. if I'm so wrong try and jump off any auto with a computer/solid
state ignition and see what happens.
You HAVE to leave the jumpers on long enough to get a base charge on
the battery. i.e. you can't just jump it off and disconnect the
jumpers and have the motor run. The car being jumped IS running off
the battery of the other car, period.
In autos going back as late as the 70's the regulator acted as the
trap isolating the charging circuit from the secondary electrics, in
later models with computers they took over this function.
As for load sensing that too is a function of the computer, unless
you're referring to some of the altenators with internal electronics
for load balancing and timing. Just talk to any other mechanic about
these and you'll get the same consensus, total crap.
I mod alot of electrical systems and when I run across these, mostly
mitsubishi or nippondenso altenators, I either cross reference them to
a good marine grade non-electronic alt. with matching solid state
regulator or modify the exsisting alt. and put in an after market
brain box to match.

There are one-wire alternators made for simpler electrical
systems, like tractors, where charging the starting battery
is about all it has to do. These are not well-suited for
automotive applications, but a lot of backyard mechanics
use them in error because they are easy to hook up without
having to understand how the electrical system works.
Performance varies from fair to poor. Don't even think
about using one of these with a high-power sound system,
you won't get good results. They are disappearing even
from agricultural use as more high-demand electronics
make inroads.

You need to get up to date on your training, virtually all autos now
run on "isolated charging" electrical systems.
Don't believe me, rip out the dash board electrics of anything made in
the past 20-25 years. All low value solid state components that would
fry in a New York minute if you wired them into the charging circuit.

Doubly so with those with computer systems/fuel injection etc....
The regulator and/or the onboard electronics "traps" the charge coming
from the altenator to prevent it use in the system.(this is to prevent
damage to the electronics and engine from using fluctuating voltage.

Smoke and mirrors and fuzzy thinking. Nothing in those
sentences solid enough even to poke at.

Nothing fuzzy about it, just standard design in todays auto electrics.
A real no-no when you have an onboard computer, fuel injection and
variable valve controls. They must have smooth, clean constant voltage
to perform properly.)

That's a bit misleading. Modern engine systems have
built-in filtering and regulation where needed. They
are well hardened against anything even a poor charging
system is likely to throw at them. They may perform a
little *better* with clean power, but it usually takes
some kind of major deficiency to bring them down, and
most of the time they don't even seem to care.

Dead wrong. I've seen injector manifolds blown clean off when when
things go horribly wrong.
You have an computer it runs the injector pump, controls timing and in
the more sophisticated engine controls valve timing.
Get any of this out of sync more than a bit and you start blowing
seals.
Even more and you'll have alot more flying off.
I run Bosch Jetronic "J" type on one of my current autos, the standard
pump pressure is 85psi, however the pump I run can range as high as
150psi. You get the valve timing off or have the computer go
haywire(OR set it up wrong) on this all you'll have left is so much
scrap metal.
Seen it happen time after time.
As for most of the stock oem stuff, you're incorrect they're very
touchy when it comes to having clean power.
In fact most of the GM, Ford or Chryslers out today have safety
interlocks to prevent the engine from running on low batteries.

I Stopped just the other day to help a lady with her 04 model
Cadillac.
Her battery went down and someone was trying to help her jump it off.
Neither new what they were doing.
I had them leave the jumpers on for about thirty minutes and she
finally got it to start.(The Caddy wouldn't even start with the jumper
cables on, the computer locked the system down entirely.)


Well this argument is turning into a flame war, however I checked earlier
today on my own car just to make sure I wasn't full of it. The car is
equipped with Bosch LH JetTronic injection which is the only system I'm
fully familiar with. The battery with the car off was sitting at about
12.5v, measured about 12.3v at one of the accessory fuses. Turned the key on
and the voltage sagged slightly to around 11.9 at the fuse. Started up the
car, alternator is an internally regulated Bosch 100A unit, voltage at the
battery jumped up to 13.6v at idle, voltage at the fuse box was just a few
points below that. Rev the engine just slightly and it goes right up to a
rock solid 13.9v, shut off the car and it drops to 12.8v immediately and
then slowly settles a few points lower. The voltage at the fuse box which is
connected directly to the ignition and injection computers, instruments, etc
directly followed the voltage increase with the engine running, it was
higher than the idle voltage of the battery, therefore it's obvious that the
alternator is running things. Yes the battery needs to have a bit of a
charge in order for the engine to start but it's because otherwise the heavy
load of the starter will drop the voltage down too low for the electronics
to function. You can measure this yourself, if you jump a car with a
completely flat battery the voltage will drop down to 6-8v when the starter
cranks, this will cause the computer to not function, something that isn't a
problem on older cars. You've got some valid points but the information
behind them is somewhat lacking and the know it all attitude is far from
helpful.

Come to think of it, I've jumped my other car when the battery was
completely flat by dropping in the good battery from the other car, once
running I was able to disconnect the good battery and put the flat one back
in, engine kept running fine, this is also electronically injected with a
computer. So yes, the alternator will definitly run the car's electrical
system on it's own and it's just basic electrical principal that if
something is drawing power from a battery and something else is pumping
power back into the battery through the very same terminals at the same
time, then the source of energy keeping the battery up is also powering
anything drawing from it.

"gothika" wrote in message
...
On 10 Sep 2004 17:26:40 GMT, Ol' Duffer wrote:

In article ,
says...
snip
(The main reason the industry switch to 12v systems, 6v batteries just
could not hold up under constant use and the variable charge rates as
well as being limited in the amount of loads from the ever increasing
number of system accessories that were being added to cars.)

Actually, the underlying reason is that you need more
current to do the same amount of work at low voltage.
It was taking like 2 ga. wire for starter motors on
some of the larger engines, but at 12V you can do the
job with 4 or 6 ga. All the connectors had to be
beefier at 6V, corrosion and wire/connector resistance
were more problematic.

Copper wire being an expensive and [potentially] short
supply strategic material, the military bumped most of
their systems on up to 24/28 Volts.

And we may have not heard the last of it. There has
been talk of going to 42 Volts to power the increasing
demand of proliferating electronics in automotives.
It is unclear how this might be implemented, as this
is above what is normally considered "consumer safe"
low voltage. Check one of *those* with your tongue!

There was a time when a solid state 6v regulator could be
had, as well as a decent 6v altenator.

Check the rebuilders, like Jebco and Triodiode. You can
still get 6V regulators, reverse polarity diode packs, etc.

Yes NOW, but at one time, especially in the late 70's and most of the
80's you'd have to go service that specialized in parts restoration
for antiques. 6v regulators couldn't be had at you're local auto parts
store.
and yes you could find a cross at your local farm implement and
tractor shop, maybe.
BTW if you take a look at the electrical design of virtually any auto
made in the past 30 years you'll see that the function of the
altenator is not to run the entire electrical system of the
engine/car, but to simply charge the battery.

Now here you are just dead wrong. Nearly all automotive
alternators since the early 70's are equipped with remote
sensing so that the alternator will maintain a nearly
constant voltage at some point other than the battery.
This is done both to reduce the amount of charge/discharge
cycling on the battery, thereby improving longevity, and
to minimize dimming of lights and similar problems that
would be associated with running from a battery in varying
states of charge. Turn something on, the alternator picks
it up right away. The only times significant current is
drawn from the battery is for starting, or at idle if you
have so much stuff turned on that the alternator won't
carry it all. Watch your ammeter if you don't believe me
(if you have one - ammeters are becoming extinct as modern
electronically regulated alternators do such a good job
you don't have to worry about it). The battery still acts
as a huge water dielectric capacitor to smooth alternator
ripple, but this is AC which has no net effect on charge
and is not hard on the battery.
Well.. if I'm so wrong try and jump off any auto with a computer/solid
state ignition and see what happens.
You HAVE to leave the jumpers on long enough to get a base charge on
the battery. i.e. you can't just jump it off and disconnect the
jumpers and have the motor run. The car being jumped IS running off
the battery of the other car, period.
In autos going back as late as the 70's the regulator acted as the
trap isolating the charging circuit from the secondary electrics, in
later models with computers they took over this function.
As for load sensing that too is a function of the computer, unless
you're referring to some of the altenators with internal electronics
for load balancing and timing. Just talk to any other mechanic about
these and you'll get the same consensus, total crap.
I mod alot of electrical systems and when I run across these, mostly
mitsubishi or nippondenso altenators, I either cross reference them to
a good marine grade non-electronic alt. with matching solid state
regulator or modify the exsisting alt. and put in an after market
brain box to match.

There are one-wire alternators made for simpler electrical
systems, like tractors, where charging the starting battery
is about all it has to do. These are not well-suited for
automotive applications, but a lot of backyard mechanics
use them in error because they are easy to hook up without
having to understand how the electrical system works.
Performance varies from fair to poor. Don't even think
about using one of these with a high-power sound system,
you won't get good results. They are disappearing even
from agricultural use as more high-demand electronics
make inroads.

You need to get up to date on your training, virtually all autos now
run on "isolated charging" electrical systems.
Don't believe me, rip out the dash board electrics of anything made in
the past 20-25 years. All low value solid state components that would
fry in a New York minute if you wired them into the charging circuit.

Doubly so with those with computer systems/fuel injection etc....
The regulator and/or the onboard electronics "traps" the charge coming
from the altenator to prevent it use in the system.(this is to prevent
damage to the electronics and engine from using fluctuating voltage.

Smoke and mirrors and fuzzy thinking. Nothing in those
sentences solid enough even to poke at.

Nothing fuzzy about it, just standard design in todays auto electrics.
A real no-no when you have an onboard computer, fuel injection and
variable valve controls. They must have smooth, clean constant voltage
to perform properly.)

That's a bit misleading. Modern engine systems have
built-in filtering and regulation where needed. They
are well hardened against anything even a poor charging
system is likely to throw at them. They may perform a
little *better* with clean power, but it usually takes
some kind of major deficiency to bring them down, and
most of the time they don't even seem to care.

Dead wrong. I've seen injector manifolds blown clean off when when
things go horribly wrong.
You have an computer it runs the injector pump, controls timing and in
the more sophisticated engine controls valve timing.
Get any of this out of sync more than a bit and you start blowing
seals.
Even more and you'll have alot more flying off.
I run Bosch Jetronic "J" type on one of my current autos, the standard
pump pressure is 85psi, however the pump I run can range as high as
150psi. You get the valve timing off or have the computer go
haywire(OR set it up wrong) on this all you'll have left is so much
scrap metal.
Seen it happen time after time.
As for most of the stock oem stuff, you're incorrect they're very
touchy when it comes to having clean power.
In fact most of the GM, Ford or Chryslers out today have safety
interlocks to prevent the engine from running on low batteries.

I Stopped just the other day to help a lady with her 04 model
Cadillac.
Her battery went down and someone was trying to help her jump it off.
Neither new what they were doing.
I had them leave the jumpers on for about thirty minutes and she
finally got it to start.(The Caddy wouldn't even start with the jumper
cables on, the computer locked the system down entirely.)


Well this argument is turning into a flame war, however I checked earlier
today on my own car just to make sure I wasn't full of it. The car is
equipped with Bosch LH JetTronic injection which is the only system I'm
fully familiar with. The battery with the car off was sitting at about
12.5v, measured about 12.3v at one of the accessory fuses. Turned the key on
and the voltage sagged slightly to around 11.9 at the fuse. Started up the
car, alternator is an internally regulated Bosch 100A unit, voltage at the
battery jumped up to 13.6v at idle, voltage at the fuse box was just a few
points below that. Rev the engine just slightly and it goes right up to a
rock solid 13.9v, shut off the car and it drops to 12.8v immediately and
then slowly settles a few points lower. The voltage at the fuse box which is
connected directly to the ignition and injection computers, instruments, etc
directly followed the voltage increase with the engine running, it was
higher than the idle voltage of the battery, therefore it's obvious that the
alternator is running things. Yes the battery needs to have a bit of a
charge in order for the engine to start but it's because otherwise the heavy
load of the starter will drop the voltage down too low for the electronics
to function. You can measure this yourself, if you jump a car with a
completely flat battery the voltage will drop down to 6-8v when the starter
cranks, this will cause the computer to not function, something that isn't a
problem on older cars. You've got some valid points but the information
behind them is somewhat lacking and the know it all attitude is far from
helpful.

Come to think of it, I've jumped my other car when the battery was
completely flat by dropping in the good battery from the other car, once
running I was able to disconnect the good battery and put the flat one back
in, engine kept running fine, this is also electronically injected with a
computer. So yes, the alternator will definitly run the car's electrical
system on it's own and it's just basic electrical principal that if
something is drawing power from a battery and something else is pumping
power back into the battery through the very same terminals at the same
time, then the source of energy keeping the battery up is also powering
anything drawing from it.