In U.S.A., the Magnuson-Moss Consumer Protection Act (orig. 1976 IIRC, as
amended ;-) sets requirements for support and service, basically an
extension of anti-trust laws in some areas, e.g., Mfger must provide parts
or manuals and so on to independent repair outlets even if in competition
with them etc. for various periods of time (typically 7 years on
photo gear, electronics etc.) after last sale in interstate commerce...

Usual workaround is to require a prohibitively large minimum order so only
bonafide repair shops will invest in manuals and repair parts etc. ;-)

hth bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************

Sorry, but that info is simply not correct.
The Magnuson-Moss Warranty act applies to an implied warranty of
merchanability (product will do what it was sold to do) and the written
warranty period (unit must be exchanged or repaired during the warranty
period).

There are no US federal laws regarding manufactures having to provide
repair, repair parts, service information to anyone outside of the company.
Manufactures do sell the information to authorized servicers in order to
keep them as warranty stations for them.

As far as parts prices go, there are also no laws regarding parts pricing.
If you ask any manufacture the $30 portable cd player you bought at Wally
World has a LIST price of $199, so they can justify selling of the cd
mechanism for $100 as a part. Basically making it so they do not have to
stock any parts for it ever.

David

"Bob Monaghan" wrote in message
...

In U.S.A., the Magnuson-Moss Consumer Protection Act (orig. 1976 IIRC, as
amended ;-) sets requirements for support and service, basically an
extension of anti-trust laws in some areas, e.g., Mfger must provide parts
or manuals and so on to independent repair outlets even if in competition
with them etc. for various periods of time (typically 7 years on
photo gear, electronics etc.) after last sale in interstate commerce...

Usual workaround is to require a prohibitively large minimum order so only
bonafide repair shops will invest in manuals and repair parts etc. ;-)

hth bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************

Long story short, our company was forced to pay a large chunk of money to
fight a court case. Needless to say, from now on, NOBODY short of the Pope
gets part, part listings, or manuals for ANY of our products ...PERIOD!.

And except service literature you forgot to mention alignment software and
jigs. All subjects of every manufacturing company...

If this was ever true, it's been superceded by NAFTA, GATT, and probably a
number of other more modern trade agreements. Trust me on this. If a company
wants to import 20,000 computer monitors, they don't even have to make
arrangements for parts or service, only to exchange any defective units
during their stated warranty.

Like I said, company policy and market forces. We'd all like to think that
manufacturers are forced to support their products, but if this was ever
really true, it isn't anymore.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Bob Monaghan" wrote in message
...

In U.S.A., the Magnuson-Moss Consumer Protection Act (orig. 1976 IIRC, as
amended ;-) sets requirements for support and service, basically an
extension of anti-trust laws in some areas, e.g., Mfger must provide parts
or manuals and so on to independent repair outlets even if in competition
with them etc. for various periods of time (typically 7 years on
photo gear, electronics etc.) after last sale in interstate commerce...

Usual workaround is to require a prohibitively large minimum order so only
bonafide repair shops will invest in manuals and repair parts etc. ;-)

hth bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************

http://www.manuals4you.com

Wide selection, reasonable pricing, always looking to make a deal or
trade. Paypal, Visa,MC accepted






On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 05:17:43 -0500, "Mark D. Zacharias"
wrote:

If this was ever true, it's been superceded by NAFTA, GATT, and probably a
number of other more modern trade agreements. Trust me on this. If a company
wants to import 20,000 computer monitors, they don't even have to make
arrangements for parts or service, only to exchange any defective units
during their stated warranty.

Like I said, company policy and market forces. We'd all like to think that
manufacturers are forced to support their products, but if this was ever
really true, it isn't anymore.

Mark Z.

Great site!! I emailed about the Olympus C700. Will post the reply.

"MrManuals" wrote in message
...

http://www.manuals4you.com

Wide selection, reasonable pricing, always looking to make a deal or
trade. Paypal, Visa,MC accepted






On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 05:17:43 -0500, "Mark D. Zacharias"
wrote:

If this was ever true, it's been superceded by NAFTA, GATT, and probably
a
number of other more modern trade agreements. Trust me on this. If a
company
wants to import 20,000 computer monitors, they don't even have to make
arrangements for parts or service, only to exchange any defective units
during their stated warranty.

Like I said, company policy and market forces. We'd all like to think
that
manufacturers are forced to support their products, but if this was ever
really true, it isn't anymore.

Mark Z.

"Fred" wrote in message
...

In my case, I have an Olympus C700 digital camera, 2-3 years old with a
power drainage problem.

Unfortunately, that is likely (not certain) to be a failure inside a
custom-made IC. The other thing it could be is a leaky electrolytic
capacitor.

I've bought camera service manuals (for film cameras) from Olympus. Have
you tried calling them?

I'm afraid we are going to have to face the fact that not everything is
economically repairable. The bottom line is that in many cases, it costs
much less (in labor and materials) to make a new camera (or whatever) than
to repair an old one. This is not a malicious practice of evil business,
it's just a fact of life.

Back in 1950, when radio repair was in its heyday, the people who assembled
radios at the factory used the same techniques as the repairman (soldering
irons, pliers, screwdrivers, etc.). Repair was easy because manufacturing
was not automated -- it used the same hand-tool techniques.

In 1975, in the printed-circuit-board era, assembly was automated but hand
repair was still relatively easy. Most of the individual components hadn't
changed much since the hand-tool era.

Today we're dealing with custom ICs (which you can't repair inside of) and
extremely dense surface-mount circuit boards with tiny, unidentifiable
components. Repair is difficult.

Admittedly, we all feel sad when we encounter things that could have been
repairable and aren't, but...

Should a customer choose a $400 camera that is repairable over a $100 camera
(with equal performance) that is not? I don't think so.

And I certainly don't want the repair industry ganging up on the
manufacturers and forcing them to do away with the $100 non-repairable
camera, forcing everybody to pay the higher price.

In my opinion, the repair industry got spoiled in the 1950s, when everybody
had primitive TV sets that ate vacuum tubes at the rate of one every three
or four weeks. Nowadays, a TV lasts maybe 8 years without repair, and when
it fails, the cause of the failure is usually hard to find. This tells me
that all the components are much more reliable, and they are also much
better matched (to last the same length of time). This is supposed to be
worse? Sorry -- when I indulge in nostalgia, I don't go *that* far.

(Several points... some readers may wish to skip down...)


Its much cheaper, to have 1 or 2 repair depots fully equipped to send
items
to, then provide hundreds of repair depots with spare parts, and
documentation.

Right... I see nothing wrong with that. Do things the most efficient way.

As long as 90% of consumers decide on purchases strictly by how
much it costs when initially purchased, then manufacturers simply cannot
support a network of repair depots, along with the documentation to
support
those depots.

I don't see how you can fault consumers for wanting a lower price. What
should they be wanting?

Well, manufacturers are realizing that a large percentage of the
population
are repurchasing items long before they die. In other words, the average
cellphone, camera, computer, TV, is being replaced long before it dies,
strictly because its not the current "IN" model, and its usually replaced
by
whatever is on sale that week, LONG before repair comes into the picture.

If this were "planned obsolescence" or just fashion, I'd be against it. But
it's mostly genuinely rapid technological progress. HDTV is coming in.
Cell phones are moving to different bands (my next one will be
international). Digital cameras are getting tremendously better year by
year.

Considering a hour or two of US technician labour costs
more than the manufacturing of the entire item overseas,

(or even in the US, with robotic assembly)

then the technician
is as dead as a Dodo, as far as most manufacturers are concerned.

As well, believe it or not, lawyers also come into the equation as well.
In
our current litigious society, supplying a untrained customer with a
schematic for a item, that they subsequently open, and fry themselves to
death with, is also a problem.

Now *that* is sad.

I am very much in favor of technological literacy, i.e., people should know
what goes on in the machines that they rely on. I'm in favor of
do-it-yourself repair when it's not unduly dangerous.

I actually have first hand experience with this. Believe it or not, a
customer recently came to be begging for a easily-replaceable on off
switch
for a kitchen appliance. Although it was against company policy, I took
pity
on this guy that said that he could not afford to bring the unit it to be
repaired, and besides, he assured me that he knew much about electronics
(considering that all you had to do was replace 2 wires, it seemed like a
safe bet), so I sold him the switch. The next time I saw the guy was in
court. Somehow he screwed it up, shorted something out, the unit caught
fire, and burned a large chunk of his kitchen.
Long story short, our company was forced to pay a large chunk of money to
fight a court case. Needless to say, from now on, NOBODY short of the Pope
gets part, part listings, or manuals for ANY of our products ...PERIOD!.
Kim

Did your company win or lose the case? It sound like that dolt would have
managed to burn his house down with or without the switch!

In article JAIRc.20267$Uh.15005@fed1read02, (Ed Price) writes:
|
| "Fred" wrote in message
| ...
| I just checked my yahoo account and this came in. I replied telling
| them
| that I believe service documentation is required to be made available to
| the
| public by US law. I will post the next reply I get.
|
|
| And to what do you attribute your strange legal insights?

I wonder if he is thinking about car service manuals? There might be some
requirement there, though the manufacturers have managed to reduce the
information content significantly and replace it with flow charts.

| Safety concerns totally trump repairability. Under no circumstances will a
| company legally expose themselves by telling you anything about how to muck
| about in the innards of their product.

Sony used to be very good about this, selling service manuals for anything to
anybody. I have service manuals for every Sony product I've owned (TVs, VCRs,
older DSS receivers, etc.) and they actually have schematics. I also had no
trouble (though it was slightly more complicated than with Sony) getting a
service manual for a Pioneer LaserDisc player and (I think) some Panasonic
VCRs. Recently I was unable to get a Sony service manual for a newer DSS
receiver, though, and I'm afraid this may be a trend. The sales rep seemed
rather puzzled about it and was supposed to do some research and get back to
me, but he didn't. I think the problem may be more the DMCA and friends than
injury liability concerns. The current legislative environment effectively
requires a lot of consumer electronics to be tamper-proof black boxes in order
to protect the new rights of content providers.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

This, and the other post about this subject are repleat with good info, good
discussion and due to the fact that there are currently 23 posts in 2 threads,
I will take my reply to a new thread.

I don't especially want to do this, but under these conditions I'm sure most of
you understand.

JURB

"Michael A. Covington" wrote in message
...

I'm afraid we are going to have to face the fact that not everything is
economically repairable. The bottom line is that in many cases, it costs
much less (in labor and materials) to make a new camera (or whatever) than
to repair an old one. This is not a malicious practice of evil business,
it's just a fact of life.

True, but the owner (me) should have the chance to fix it and I don't charge
myself $70/hour. I work for free!! B^)

OK, let's make this topic interesting to you,
what is the type of your camera and what is the problem?

After answering this question the most
possible is to get one of those answers:

Electrolytic capacitors (manufacturer's wrong design(in my opinion))
Too complicated mecha problem, send it to a specialist (authorized)
Too high cost to repair (change a TGA PCB, need to buy from manufacturer)
Can be repaired even by you but needs alignment (from authorized)
.....
Rotten by water or got sand in the mechanism (sorry, your fault)
Dropped down and now got a problem (sorry, your fault)
Already messed up opened by you (sorry, your fault)

I guess this topic is 95% interesting because all repaimen agree that
electronic devices are made for one use and many times does not
worth repairing. I do not know if there are technitians that charge 70$/hour
but if consumers prefer the manufacturer's service have to pay this money
because authorized services have a lot of high tech equipment and are forced
from the manufacturer to buy and buy and buy literarture tools etc. etc.

Now how indipendand services can repair without this literature, bulletings
and alignment tools and software? I thank google newsgroups and eBAy.
Also all those websites that share knowledge, schematics sell spare parts
etc.


geo

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:55:13 GMT, "Fred"
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Just wondering if anyone has had trouble getting service manuals for various
electronics or appliances and how you got the info you needed to fix
something.

I remember years ago that all companies were required by law to sell a
service manual or at least enough drawings and parts lists so that a
technician could disassemble and work on their products. I was thinking it
was 7 years? Sure seems like that law no longer being enforced.

Yeah, that's what happens over here as well. It's about time the
useless Greenies got off their backsides and pushed for legislation in
this area. IMO, there should be no excuse for any manufacturer not to
make service manuals available in paperless format via the Internet.
And that means making them available to everybody, not just their
business partners. I detest the condescending, patronising attitude of
manufacturers who pretend that by withholding technical information
they are protecting unqualified consumers from themselves. That should
not be their choice, nor their responsibility, it should be mine.


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

"Fred" wrote in message
news
"Michael A. Covington" wrote in message
...

I'm afraid we are going to have to face the fact that not everything is
economically repairable....

True, but the owner (me) should have the chance to fix it and I don't
charge
myself $70/hour. I work for free!! B^)

Understood. That's what Sam Goldwasser is for

The documentation that we wish for may simply not exist, because even at the
factory, they don't do component-level repair.

BTW, I know I'm "boring and academic." That's what they pay me for.


Boring and academic signatu
--

Michael Covington, Ph.D.
Associate Director, Artificial Intelligence Center
The University of Georgia - www.ai.uga.edu/mc

"Fred" wrote in message
news
"Michael A. Covington" wrote in message
...

I'm afraid we are going to have to face the fact that not everything is
economically repairable. The bottom line is that in many cases, it costs
much less (in labor and materials) to make a new camera (or whatever) than
to repair an old one. This is not a malicious practice of evil business,
it's just a fact of life.

True, but the owner (me) should have the chance to fix it and I don't
charge
myself $70/hour. I work for free!! B^)


And I'm sure you're worth it!
Actually, look on this as a golden opportunity to learn something about
repair, and yourself.
Your camera is broken now, how much worse can you make it?

Ed
wb6wsn

"Fred" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
The real reason I'm sure is the $150 flat rate to repair a 2 year
old camera. Typically they have test jigs set up for this stuff and
take
less that 5 minutes in most cases.


Apparently you have never worked on a camcorder with an intermittant
problem.
8^)

Actually I have and you are right - they can be tough. In this case, I'm
talking about a digital still camera where the moving parts are all OK.



That's really impressive analysis skills, considering that you forgot about
the shock hazard of the flash circuitry and the energy content of the
batteries.

And you're still posting to those two imaginary groups.

Ed
wb6wsn

Really worse:-)
Try the phrase: wash the board
the next post will be
OK in the washing mashine at ? degrees??????

"Ed Price" wrote in message
news:5_mSc.30169$Uh.8775@fed1read02...

True, but the owner (me) should have the chance to fix it and I don't
charge
myself $70/hour. I work for free!! B^)

And I'm sure you're worth it!
Actually, look on this as a golden opportunity to learn something about
repair, and yourself.
Your camera is broken now, how much worse can you make it?

Hyuk... hyuk.... TOUCHE!!!!! B:^)
(You guys are a fun group, I'll have to say! Email is so easily
misunderstood, I have to start putting smiley in to be sure no one is
insulted -- not the intention, by the way.

Actually, you're absolutely right about the opportunity. Since Olympus will
fix anything for $150, I might as well root around in there and see what I
can find. From talking to others the best guess right now is it's in the
power circuitry. I'll post what I learn.

Subject: What ever happened to service manuals?
From: "Michael A. Covington" ess


Should a customer choose a $400 camera that is repairable over a $100 camera
(with equal performance) that is not? I don't think so.


Lots of people are under the impression that the $400 camera they bought a few
years ago is now $100. It's not; the new camera is a $100 camera, not a $400
camera. It's service life will surely reflect that. But there were still a
few $400 cameras that weren't any better than the current crop of Chinese junk,
and these shouldn't be repaired either. The last factory rep I spoke to said
the new consumer electronic devices are designed to last the warranty period.
Anything beyond that is bonus time.


In my opinion, the repair industry got spoiled in the 1950s, when everybody
had primitive TV sets that ate vacuum tubes at the rate of one every three
or four weeks.

I started out about 1970 repairing 50s through the 60s era TVs. While TVs
certainly needed a lot of attention, they didn't need tubes every three or four
weeks. A properly serviced TV would give 2 to 4 years of decent service before
needing some sort of attention, but ministrations of most sort were cheap back
then. BTW, IMO the most reliable TVs ever built were built from the early 70s
through the late 80s. I can't tell you how often customers offer to me a free
TV from that era that still works.


Nowadays, a TV lasts maybe 8 years without repair, and when
it fails, the cause of the failure is usually hard to find.

Not my experience. We see more major failures in newer items than we EVER did,
and they are no harder to repair than they were before.

This tells me
that all the components are much more reliable, and they are also much
better matched (to last the same length of time).

For the first time that I am aware of, manufactuers are using components (like
capacitors) with 1 and 2 thousand hour MTBF ratings. In the old days, we never
had to shotgun electrolytics like we do in TVs even 1 to 2 years old.

John

"John Del" wrote in message
...

I started out about 1970 repairing 50s through the 60s era TVs. While TVs
certainly needed a lot of attention, they didn't need tubes every three or
four
weeks. A properly serviced TV would give 2 to 4 years of decent service
before
needing some sort of attention, but ministrations of most sort were cheap
back
then. BTW, IMO the most reliable TVs ever built were built from the early
70s
through the late 80s. I can't tell you how often customers offer to me a
free
TV from that era that still works.

I've still got the last model Zenith TV that was made in the US. Circa 1983
maybe? Still works like new and never opened the back.

On 10 Aug 2004 12:01:28 GMT, (John Del) wrote:

Subject: What ever happened to service manuals?
From: "Michael A. Covington" ess


Should a customer choose a $400 camera that is repairable over a $100 camera
(with equal performance) that is not? I don't think so.


Lots of people are under the impression that the $400 camera they bought a few
years ago is now $100. It's not; the new camera is a $100 camera, not a $400
camera. It's service life will surely reflect that. But there were still a
few $400 cameras that weren't any better than the current crop of Chinese junk,
and these shouldn't be repaired either. The last factory rep I spoke to said
the new consumer electronic devices are designed to last the warranty period.
Anything beyond that is bonus time.


In my opinion, the repair industry got spoiled in the 1950s, when everybody
had primitive TV sets that ate vacuum tubes at the rate of one every three
or four weeks.

I started out about 1970 repairing 50s through the 60s era TVs. While TVs
certainly needed a lot of attention, they didn't need tubes every three or four
weeks. A properly serviced TV would give 2 to 4 years of decent service before
needing some sort of attention, but ministrations of most sort were cheap back
then. BTW, IMO the most reliable TVs ever built were built from the early 70s
through the late 80s. I can't tell you how often customers offer to me a free
TV from that era that still works.
So true. I liked the early RCA XL's with the modular board assemblies.
If something went bad just unplug the particular circuit card and plug
in a new one.
I grew up in the the repair business and worked on tv's in the 50's
and through the 70's.
They were SO much easier to repair then as compared to now.


Nowadays, a TV lasts maybe 8 years without repair, and when
it fails, the cause of the failure is usually hard to find.

Not my experience. We see more major failures in newer items than we EVER did,
and they are no harder to repair than they were before.
Depends on the particular item. If it was built cheap sure it'll crap
out sooner.
I have a Zenith from 95 that hasn't had a bit of service and it still
has the same quality picture as it did in year one.
Same for some of my JVC and Panasonic sets.
AND it is more problematic to repair todays single circuit board sets
than yesteryears sets with their components divied up between separate
circuit boards.
If todays sets are failing more it can be blamed on poor design and
cutcost components.

This tells me
that all the components are much more reliable, and they are also much
better matched (to last the same length of time).

For the first time that I am aware of, manufactuers are using components (like
capacitors) with 1 and 2 thousand hour MTBF ratings. In the old days, we never
had to shotgun electrolytics like we do in TVs even 1 to 2 years old.

John

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...
And what really gets my undies in a knot is that the only thing that may
be wrong with a VCR or TV, for example, is that the damn remote control
is bad, and there's no way to get a replacement that has full
functionality! Like you can buy a 'universal' remote, and it has the
usual volume, channel, play and record buttons, but you can't configure
the VCR because all that stuff was on the original remote, but not on
the VCR itself! And if you can't use the original, you can't do SPIT!
FURRFU!

The first ten minute power failure that comes along, and you not only
have to reset the date and time, but you have to re-enter all the
channels, too. And without the original remote, you're out of luck!

I have had very good luck locating specialist remote control vendors on the
Web. I think one of them is called Mr. Remote.

Hey John Del )! You wrote in message
, at group
sci.electronics.repair, on the date of 10 Aug 2004 12:01:28 GMT:


I started out about 1970 repairing 50s through the 60s era TVs. While TVs
certainly needed a lot of attention, they didn't need tubes every three or four
weeks. A properly serviced TV would give 2 to 4 years of decent service before
needing some sort of attention, but ministrations of most sort were cheap back
then. BTW, IMO the most reliable TVs ever built were built from the early 70s
through the late 80s. I can't tell you how often customers offer to me a free
TV from that era that still works.

I agree. I have a Semp Toshiba TV from 1986 or so. Never was opened (the only
thing that was changed was the power plug, the original one was broken). Still
works perfectly, unlike some modern TV's that are cheap built.

[]s
--
Chaos Master®, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP!
MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com
Powered by chaos. Chaos. CHAOS. ©|-|405.

Thanks, Bob. That's what I'm thinking of.

"Bob Monaghan" wrote in message
...

In U.S.A., the Magnuson-Moss Consumer Protection Act (orig. 1976 IIRC, as
amended ;-) sets requirements for support and service, basically an
extension of anti-trust laws in some areas, e.g., Mfger must provide parts
or manuals and so on to independent repair outlets even if in competition
with them etc. for various periods of time (typically 7 years on
photo gear, electronics etc.) after last sale in interstate commerce...

Usual workaround is to require a prohibitively large minimum order so only
bonafide repair shops will invest in manuals and repair parts etc. ;-)

hth bobm
--
************************************************** *********************
* Robert Monaghan POB 752182 Southern Methodist Univ. Dallas Tx 75275 *
********************Standard Disclaimers Apply*************************