That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"? My
best guess(tm) here is that he's still having problems adjusting to
LED lighting and needs a new reason to not use LED lighting. Am I at
least close?

Not really ...

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving judgment
on LED lighting. My local supermarket recently had a major refit, and all of
their ceiling fluorescent fittings were replaced with linear LED arrays, so
at first, you don't notice that anything has changed. When I did realise, I
was surprised that the quality and intensity of the light in terms of how
well it illuminated the sales floor, was every bit as good as the original
fluorescents. They also have replaced the car park floodlights with LED
arrays, and these are crap compared to the metal halide fixtures that they
replaced. My hairdresser has replaced all of the mini spots in his ceiling
fixtures with equivalent LED bulbs. They produce a good amount of light, and
the colour is not bad, but they are unpleasantly bright to look at. They are
also not a very good shape and don't fit the fixtures terribly well. I'm not
a great fan of LED street lighting either, as I think it is harsh in
comparison to say LPS, and nothing like as effective at penetrating fog, as
it is polychromatic light. It also doesn't seem as good at producing 'even'
street lighting as LPS or even HPS is, if you can get past the yellow colour
of those types.

As everyone also knows, I am not a fan of substitute lighting technologies
brought in for eco-bollox reasons. CFLs are not as good as incandescents,
and never will be in terms of light quality, low temperature performance,
and start-up time. LEDs are better in all of those areas, but still have a
long way to go before I would consider them to be a replacement technology
for domestic incandescent bulbs, rather than the substitute which they
currently are. The 'eco' credentials for this lighting, as spouted by the
politicians and commentators, is always far too simplistic, and designed to
convince the great unwashed that they must be better because they consume so
much less energy. No account is taken of the energy budgets to make these
things in the first place, or to dispose of them (properly) when they fail.
The supermarket sales floor lights are a good example of what can be
achieved with commercial LED lighting. Where you are not trying to reproduce
sunlight - such as with airport runway and taxiway lighting - then they are,
without doubt, the best and most reliable technology for the job. There are
may LED traffic signals in the area where I live, and they seem to work
extremely well, so another area where LEDs are appropriate and good at the
job.

All of the above, we have discussed on these two groups over the years, as
the technology has changed and evolved. I merely thought that this article,
by someone who seems to be in a position to make valid comments on the
subject, had an interesting alternative view of the common wisdom that is
generally pushed. Simply that, Jeff. Hence the reason that I titled the post
"Interesting..." ...

On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal. Things change.

On 01/05/2015 03:06 AM, Huge wrote:
On 2015-01-05, mike wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

Things change.

Not always for the better, or for the right reasons.


I can't afford to waste money on nostalgia. LEDs rule!

On 01/05/2015 3:06 AM, Huge wrote:
On 2015-01-05, mike wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

10% sunlight?

John ;-#)#


--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2015-01-05, mike wrote:
On 1/4/2015 6:02 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving
judgment on LED lighting.

I wonder what we'd be saying about incandescents if they were replacing
LED lights we'd been using for a century?
I can understand if you're a photographer.
For the rest of us, it's no big deal.

Please don't include me in "the rest of us". I too think CFL lighting is
very poor, and have switched back to incandescents in a few places (I
imagine we're about 30% CFL, 30% halogen and 30% GLS (incandescent)) now.

Things change.

Not always for the better, or for the right reasons.

+1 on each of your points

Arfa



--
Today is Setting Orange, the 5th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3181
Celebrate Mungday
I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my attitude,
that's your problem.

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 7:02:37 PM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:

I don't like CFL lighting - that's well known. I am still reserving judgment
on LED lighting. My local supermarket recently had a major refit, and all of
their ceiling fluorescent fittings were replaced with linear LED arrays, so
at first, you don't notice that anything has changed. When I did realise, I
was surprised that the quality and intensity of the light in terms of how
well it illuminated the sales floor, was every bit as good as the original
fluorescents. They also have replaced the car park floodlights with LED
arrays, and these are crap compared to the metal halide fixtures that they
replaced. My hairdresser has replaced all of the mini spots in his ceiling
fixtures with equivalent LED bulbs. They produce a good amount of light, and
the colour is not bad, but they are unpleasantly bright to look at. They are
also not a very good shape and don't fit the fixtures terribly well. I'm not
a great fan of LED street lighting either, as I think it is harsh in
comparison to say LPS, and nothing like as effective at penetrating fog, as
it is polychromatic light. It also doesn't seem as good at producing 'even'
street lighting as LPS or even HPS is, if you can get past the yellow colour
of those types.

I've been a regular visitor to Hong Kong since 2010 and just returned from the worlds largest LED lighting show again in October. I import commercial retrofits that are years ahead of what is available (or "hawked") here in the US. As such, I have quality products and I'm aware of the crap that is out there. My background is in lighting, electronics, television and cinema and I'm well aware of color temperature and lumens. Unfortunately, the customer whose heart is in the right place is usually a victim in cases like you describe. The hacks that sell LED retrofit by-and-large have no clue as to what options are available as they only re-sell what some distributor (or DIY store) has in stock. There are success stories but most likely they are due to dumb luck and not any engineering. Don't get me started on their lack of optical knowledge, lumens, color temperature or the relationship of rods and cones to pupil lumens, CRI, and the horrible spectral response of HPS lamps. I have relations with over 30 vendors in China and I can't tell you how cool and well-made the lamps are becoming.

Here is a brief overview of light and the eye:

Cones and Photopic vision- The central part of the eye is the fovea that is rich in a type of cells called 'cones'. Cones are responsible for color vision and are involved in vision during bright light. This is called Photopic vision.

Rods and Scotopic vision-Rods are sensitive to dim light and are active during low light intensity conditions. Rods cannot perceive color. Vision due to rods is 'black and white.'

Light measuring instruments measure Light intensity in Lumens - considering only the response of the cones. Thus, the Lumens measured by a light meter are also called Photopic Lumens.

In conditions of low light intensity entire vision is due to rod cells (scotopic vision). In medium light intensity (conditions as are often found under street lights and in homes) vision is called Mesopic vision and is due to both rods and cones. Using 'Photopic Lumens' to describe light intensity in such an area grossly underestimates the light intensity as it totally ignores the contribution of rod cells to vision.

And I hate CFLs, too.

Yours truly,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.

I've been a regular visitor to Hong Kong since 2010 and just returned from
the worlds largest LED lighting show again in October. I import
commercial retrofits that are years ahead of what is available (or
"hawked") here in the US. As such, I have quality products and I'm aware
of the crap that is out there. My background is in lighting, electronics,
television and cinema and I'm well aware of color temperature and lumens.
Unfortunately, the customer whose heart is in the right place is usually a
victim in cases like you describe. The hacks that sell LED retrofit
by-and-large have no clue as to what options are available as they only
re-sell what some distributor (or DIY store) has in stock. There are
success stories but most likely they are due to dumb luck and not any
engineering. Don't get me started on their lack of optical knowledge,
lumens, color temperature or the relationship of rods and cones to pupil
lumens, CRI, and the horrible spectral response of HPS lamps. I have
relations with over 30 vendors in China and I can't tell you how cool and
well-made the lamps are becoming.

Here is a brief overview of light and the eye:

Cones and Photopic vision- The central part of the eye is the fovea that
is rich in a type of cells called 'cones'. Cones are responsible for color
vision and are involved in vision during bright light. This is called
Photopic vision.

Rods and Scotopic vision-Rods are sensitive to dim light and are active
during low light intensity conditions. Rods cannot perceive color. Vision
due to rods is 'black and white.'

Light measuring instruments measure Light intensity in Lumens -
considering only the response of the cones. Thus, the Lumens measured by a
light meter are also called Photopic Lumens.

In conditions of low light intensity entire vision is due to rod cells
(scotopic vision). In medium light intensity (conditions as are often
found under street lights and in homes) vision is called Mesopic vision
and is due to both rods and cones. Using 'Photopic Lumens' to describe
light intensity in such an area grossly underestimates the light intensity
as it totally ignores the contribution of rod cells to vision.

And I hate CFLs, too.

Yours truly,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.

Interesting. I read that LPS street lighting is the most effectively
efficient lighting that there is in terms of (mesopic?) lumens per watt, as
the yellow colour lies close to the most sensitive frequency of the human
eye. For sure, the 40 watt LPS streetlights that were removed from my
village, to make way for some 45 watt high pressure discharge lamps with a
whiter output, were far - and I mean far - more effective at lighting the
street than these new ones, which produce harsh, sharply defined cones of
light, and leave pools of darkness between. One of the 'selling points' that
the local council published before the work was done, was that because the
light was 'whiter', colour rendition would be improved. That is actually not
true, because the overall light level that they produce, is not enough to
take your eye up into the colour perception range. They are also crap in
fog, compared to the LPS lamps that they replaced. To be honest, the yellow
light from LPS and golden light from HPS street lighting has never bothered
me. I've never really understood why colour rendition at night is of any
particular importance. Better I think that the air is 'saturated' with light
of any description, than to have lamps that produce concentrated 'patches'
of light that you might just about be able to see colour with, when you are
right underneath them.

I'm probably using wrong terms all over the place here, as I am no expert,
which clearly you are, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying

Arfa