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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#41
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Active device nonsense
"passive component Electronics. A component that does not require power
to operate, e.g., a resistor. Contrast with active. " Umm, if a resistor is operating witthout power, just what is it doing ? Hey, I am not being a pain, it's the subject. |
#42
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Active device nonsense
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#43
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Active device nonsense
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#44
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Active device nonsense
** Get cancer and die you criminal ****ing nut case. |
#45
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Active device nonsense
"Jerry Peters" Phil Allison "Jerry Peters" An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another. So a relay is an active device? ** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure. It's called reductio ad absurdum, it's a rhetorical technique Phil. ** I figured you were being facetious. But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" . Which relays are not. ..... Phil |
#46
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Active device nonsense
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#47
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Active device nonsense
Phil Allison wrote:
"Jerry Peters" Phil Allison "Jerry Peters" An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another. So a relay is an active device? ** Trying to define a word or term *out of context* is doomed to failure. It's called reductio ad absurdum, it's a rhetorical technique Phil. ** I figured you were being facetious. I was actually trying to get dave to *think*, but he doesn't seem to be capable of it. It's much like the definition of a word, there can be multiple, sometimes even contradictory meanings, and also implications or overtones to a particular word choice. But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" . Which relays are not. If he gets to define what an active or passive device is *I* can define what an "electronic" device is. WHat about a magnetic amplifier? |
#48
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Active device nonsense
?"But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" .
Which relays are not. " Why, because they have no silicon or PN junction ? then you rule out tubes/valvs. If the exception is made because of a filament and thermionic emission, then what about gas fired tubes/valves like a 0Z4 or whatever ? Sometimes the process of elimination is useful. What is NOT an activ device ? Capacitor Resistor Inductor Switch That would mean then that a relay is not an active electronic device because the two main compnents are not active. However, in a transistor.... If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise. So does the addition of the second junction in a bipolar transistor make it active ? does the addition of a grid in a tube/valve make it active ? All of this, no matter how useless an argument (nobody has any work to do ?), is coming down to the point where a diode is an active device. |
#49
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Active device nonsense
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#50
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Active device nonsense
"Jerry Peters" Phil Allison ** I figured you were being facetious. I was actually trying to get dave to *think*, but he doesn't seem to be capable of it. ** No fooling ? It's much like the definition of a word, there can be multiple, sometimes even contradictory meanings, and also implications or overtones to a particular word choice. But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" . Which relays are not. If he gets to define what an active or passive device is *I* can define what an "electronic" device is. WHat about a magnetic amplifier? ** Out of context again. Device = single component here. "Electronic component " is broad church too, it includes anything electronic in nature that is intended to be used to create an electronic device. Active devices do NOT have to be able to amplify signals - that IS what most of them do but is not the defining issue. BTW: I see you are an incorrigible context shifter and a bull**** artist. **** off. .... Phil |
#51
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Active device nonsense
?"But YOU failed to see the discussion is only about "electronic devices" . Which relays are not. " Why, ** Read the rest of that post - you over snipping maniac. Then go drop ****ing dead. |
#52
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Active device nonsense
"A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no
way for it to have an input which controls an output. " So your contention then is that tunnel diodes, Gunn diodes and Zener diodes are not active devices. If that is so, then a magnetron is also passive. It is technically a diode with an indirectly heated cathode unless you consider the magnet an element.. Also, what of the case of a Hall effct device ? Nothing electronic controls it, only a magnetic field. Other devices can have more than two terminals aqnd be passive, so where does the Hall effect fit in there ? |
#53
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Active device nonsense
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#54
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Active device nonsense
An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as
the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition. Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes. The ability to switch a tube or transistor "on" depends on the device's ability to amplify its input to the point it's driven into saturation. The amplification mechanism is exactly the same as when the device amplifies a continuously varying signal. How about controlled rectifiers? These are four-layer (sometimes more) devices sometimes modeled as two transistors in a sort of "soixante neuf" arrangement, a kind of flip-flop. Again, the same transistor amplification mechanism makes them work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIAC Magnetic amplifiers use a small current to control a larger one. They're (as the British would say) "valves", just as tubes and transistors are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier |
#55
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Active device nonsense
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
On 2014-01-28, wrote: If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise. A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no way for it to have an input which controls an output. Switching diode which switches an AC signal with a DC signal. It's been done for years. PIN diode which can switch or attenuate an RF signal with a DC current. --snip-- |
#56
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Active device nonsense
William Sommerwerck wrote:
An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition. Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes. The ability to switch a tube or transistor "on" depends on the device's ability to amplify its input to the point it's driven into saturation. The amplification mechanism is exactly the same as when the device amplifies a continuously varying signal. How about controlled rectifiers? These are four-layer (sometimes more) devices sometimes modeled as two transistors in a sort of "soixante neuf" arrangement, a kind of flip-flop. Again, the same transistor amplification mechanism makes them work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIAC Magnetic amplifiers use a small current to control a larger one. They're (as the British would say) "valves", just as tubes and transistors are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which I would argue makes it an active device. |
#57
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Active device nonsense
On 2014-01-29, William Sommerwerck wrote:
An active device provides signal amplification, or it uses amplification as the basis of its operation. That has always been the definition. That is fine, but you have to remember that amplification includes unity gain (and below). Is digital circuitry active? I'd say yes. I would say that, as a category, no. Counterexample: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_logic |
#58
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Active device nonsense
On 01/29/2014 01:03 PM, Jerry Peters wrote:
Kaz Kylheku wrote: On 2014-01-28, wrote: If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise. A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no way for it to have an input which controls an output. Switching diode which switches an AC signal with a DC signal. It's been done for years. PIN diode which can switch or attenuate an RF signal with a DC current. --snip-- Pin diodes don't attenuate. They connect resistors. |
#59
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Active device nonsense
"Jerry Peters" wrote in message ...
I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which I would argue makes it an active device. So then a light switch is an active device? Hello? The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and stating whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of thought. There's no point in discussing it further. If a device cannot amplify (in the ordinary, common-sense meaning of the word), it is not an active device. Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic component was an active device. Case closed. |
#60
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Active device nonsense
"William ****wit Sommer****** " I'd say amplification is a *sufficient* condition but not a necessary one. A diode can be used as a switch, without amplifying, which I would argue makes it an active device. So then a light switch is an active device? ** FFS - it not an ELECTRONIC device. Do you want food mixers and lawn mowers included too ?? The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and stating whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of thought. ** Like YOU do all the ****ing time - asshole. There's no point in discussing it further. If a device cannot amplify (in the ordinary, common-sense meaning of the word), it is not an active device. ** Crap. Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic component was an active device. ** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it. The term " active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!! I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended to be used in an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk working IN ELECTRONICS use it and dealer's catalogues reflect the fact too. And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...Classification ..... Phil |
#61
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Active device nonsense
Jerry Peters wrote: Kaz Kylheku wrote: On 2014-01-28, wrote: If a diode is not active, why ? You can modulate with it. You can switch with it. This can be done with solid state diodes or otherwise. A diode is not active by itself, because it's a two-port circuit. There is no way for it to have an input which controls an output. Switching diode which switches an AC signal with a DC signal. It's been done for years. PIN diode which can switch or attenuate an RF signal with a DC current. We used them as band switches in a low noise synthesizer. A DC voltage would turn the diode on to short out part of the inductor, raising the center frequency of the VCO. Breaking the 360-510 MHz into four overlapping segments allowed for more linear and reduced the effects of noise on the tuning voltage that controlled the tuning. |
#62
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Active device nonsense
En el artículo , William Sommerwerck
escribió: The remarks made here are classic examples of opening one's mouth and stating whatever pops into one's head, without giving it the least bit of thought. Welcome to Usenet. :-) -- (\_/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
#63
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Active device nonsense
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic component was an active device. ** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it. What do you mean by "electronic"? Aren't /all/ devices used in electronic equipment "electronic" /by definition/? The term "active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!! True -- the context is amplification. I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended to be used in an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk working IN ELECTRONICS use it and dealer's catalogues reflect the fact, too. I don't care what most people think. I only care about the truth. To call an ordinary rectifier an active component is beyond stupid. It is not "active", in any reasonable sense of the term. Phil, you're like most human beings. You believe what you want to believe, without thinking about it. And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!! The article is wrong. Too bad. |
#64
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Active device nonsense
Let's look at this (non-)issue in a broader sense. What was the point of
applying the adjective "active" to particular devices? "Obviously", it was to distinguish them from non-active devices. And prior to the Audion, there /were/ no active devices -- devices that /amplified/. Several years ago we had an insane argument, in which a significant number of posters claimed that transducers were amplifiers, twisting the definitions of these terms into perverse forms. We are now told that a PIN diode -- which is no more than a switch -- is an active device, apparently because it's made of semiconductor material, which /just happens/ to be used in active devices. So -- duh -- they must both be active devices. What does the material have to do with it? A switch is a switch. Switches are not, and have never been, considered active devices. Do PIN diodes get a special break, just because they're semiconductors? Are we now supposed to classify the power switch on a table radio as an active device? Calling an electrical generator an active device is meaningless, because it doesn't draw any useful distinction with "inactive" devices (such as a rake or a step ladder). An if an electrical generator is an "active" device, why isn't a log? A log can be burned to produce energy. Human beings are incredibly stupid. They believe what their parents tell them, and almost always stick ferociously to their childhood beliefs throughout life. They believe that whatever pops into their heads is true, and these beliefs can only rarely be shaken. Worst of all, humans hardly ever ask "How do I know whether something is true or not?" Of course, in a democracy it doesn't matter. One person's point of view is as good as any other person's. |
#65
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Active device nonsense
Whatever it is, I believe that quite possibly by now the OP has been committed to a sanitarium.
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#66
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Active device nonsense
On 01/30/2014 07:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ... Otherwise, you could twist the definition so that any and every electronic component was an active device. ** Define "electronic component" to mean only those items that are exclusively electronic in nature and you have got it. What do you mean by "electronic"? Aren't /all/ devices used in electronic equipment "electronic" /by definition/? The term "active device" cannot be defined OUT OF CONTEXT !!!!!! True -- the context is amplification. I say it includes to ANY vacuum tube or semiconductor intended to be used in an electronic circuit - cos that is how most folk working IN ELECTRONICS use it and dealer's catalogues reflect the fact, too. I don't care what most people think. I only care about the truth. To call an ordinary rectifier an active component is beyond stupid. It is not "active", in any reasonable sense of the term. Phil, you're like most human beings. You believe what you want to believe, without thinking about it. And Wiki agrees with ME !!!!! The article is wrong. Too bad. Electronics is intelligent control of electrons, like the name says. |
#67
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Active device nonsense
"William Sommer****** is a Pschyo ****" I don't care what most people think. ** The meaning of all words and terms IS what people think they mean. Autistic ****wits like WS cannot grasp this obvious truism. I only care about the truth. ** Shame how YOU are the biggest DAMN LIAR out. ..... Phi |
#68
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Active device nonsense
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
I don't care what most people think. ** The meaning of all words and terms IS what people think they mean. That's one of the reasons the world is so screwed up. |
#69
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Active device nonsense
On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
I don't care what most people think. So, why keep trying to make them care what you think? |
#70
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Active device nonsense
"mike" wrote in message ...
On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote: I don't care what most people think. So, why keep trying to make them care what you think? Maybe someday I might change a mind or two. In all my life, I have never met one person who said, "You know, Bill, you're right. I don't use my intelligence well." |
#71
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Active device nonsense
mike wrote: On 1/30/2014 7:09 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote: I don't care what most people think. So, why keep trying to make them care what you think? Some people care about reality. All 'Diode' means is two terminals, but many think only of 'Rectifier'. |
#72
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Active device nonsense
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#73
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Anyone help me with component ID for X5DIJ-SX039C laptop (k501jmobo)?
On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 21:54:48 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku
wrote: On 2014-01-25, Jerry Peters wrote: dave wrote: On 01/23/2014 06:05 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote: dave wrote: On 01/23/2014 06:45 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote: It is not a switch or a valve. It's a solid state diode that oscillates. DC in, and ~10 GHZ out. Search on Gunnplexer. You see them on automatic doors in almost every store. A microwave mixer diode takes a sample from the Gunn diode and compares it to any reflected signals. This results in a low frequency signal that is detected, amplified and signals the door to open. How can a passive diode do that? Like I said. You can hit a piece of quartz with a hammer and it will oscillate; that doesn't mean it's considered and active device. An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another. As in amplify or switch. Thermionic valve, transistor, SCR, Triac is what we are going for. An active device uses one signal [current, voltage] to control another. So a relay is an active device? We should probably apply the "active" or "passive" designation to circuits rather than devices. When we say that a device is active, it means that the only sensible way of using it is in the role where it provides an active circuit. A passive circuit is one in which the energy source for driving the output signals is derived from the input signals, rather than from some auxiliary power supply. Anything else is an active circuit. Because the energy for driving outputs is derived from inputs in a passive device, a passive device can never amplify power; though if it contains inductors, it can step voltage up or down and thereby modify impedance. A logic inverter circuit built on a relay is definitely active. Justification: the device produces an output which is based on the input, but which does not draw energy from the input at all to power the output. Power is applied to the switch, in series with a load resistor. This energy source is not considered an input signal. If the relay's switch is used to pass through or cut off a signal (say as part of a multiplexer), then we can regard it as passive. When the signal passes through the relay, it does so without amplification: the output is powered by the input. The next and previous device are not isolated from each other's impedances in any way by the relay; it is transparent. Moreover, the relay's coil is powered by *its* input: the switching mechanism itself does not have its own source of power. (Note that by the same logic, we could argue that a FET used for signal switching also gives rise to a passive circuit.) And just to trip you up,what about USB to TIA 232 converters? ?-) |
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