"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:02:38 -0500, tm wrote:

You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and
see
if any track has been damaged.

Thanks for that advice. The sticky tape was covering the traces:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/1...7bb08f86_o.gif

So, following your advice, I peeled it mostly off, and looked with a
magnifying glass as you had suggested:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/1...1b250d61_o.gif

The 1,000uF 35V capacitor leads are burnt a bit, but, it could have been a
replacement cap for all I know, as the cap is not shorted nor is it an
open
(it's about 350 ohms steady).
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/1...5e7abf80_o.gif

However, the fact is that this sequence shows *something* is wrong with
that D135A battery-protection board:

1. The battery is 13.31V
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. Connecting this way is 13.31V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

3. But, connecting this way is 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif


Use the meter test lead (red) to touch the red battery lead to the output
terminal briefly. You should hear the relay pull in. Then the power terminal
should be at 12 volts. This board depends on AC power being applied to the
alarm unit and some battery charging current needs to be available to arm
the battery protection board.

tm

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:07:16 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

What if the new board blows up when replaced?

That's why I only want to spend the $104 to replace it.
It *does* have overload circuit protection besides.

Are you planning to protect it some how from that occurring?

I've done plenty of smoke tests in my life.
This will be one of them.

BTW, looking at arrow marking on diode
can yu tell which direction current electron or current flows?
Can you tell which lead is the cathode or anode?

Heh heh ... here is a board I built many years ago to test
impedence (j omega stuff). I wired a diode to house current!
You'll notice the diodes. Particularly, you'll notice that the
nichrome wire resistor has the same impedance as the the capacitor.
(I couldn't find an inductor of a large enough size.)
FRONT: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/1...41b67f1e_o.gif
BACK: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3800/1...928f65c1_o.gif

Also notice this circuit, where I used 555 timers (I think that's what
I used), way back in the 80's, to measure capacitance and resistance
simply by counting the flash rate ...
FRONT: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7362/1...3e84efa3_o.gif
BACK: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/1...fa50a070_o.gif

I did those circuits in the early 80's but, of course I know
about the shape of the diode curve and which is the anode and
which is the cathode.
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03256.png

Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.

Hi,
You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is
the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener...
If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:46:30 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I hope that you realize that you are not getting a reading
off of the capacitor. Most likely that is the resistance of the
other components on the board.

I used to use a capacitance meter (I forget what we called them
way back in the 80s in one of my lab classes), so, I'm familiar
with the fact that it's hard to measure capacitance.

However, I did think (errantly perhaps) that the capacitor
would show as a short or as an open if it were "blown".

Since it showed with resistance, I wasn't sure, what I was
reading. I *did* expect the voltage to climb slowly, since
the meter would have been supplying charge to the capacitor's
plates; so, the fact that the resistance was steady should
have been a good datapoint.

What I will likely do is take a trip to RadioShack and
buy a 1,000 uF 35V electrolytic of a similar size and
see if I can wire it back up.

I wanted to first draw the circuit so that I could figure
out how to test it though.

So, thanks for pointing out the faux pas in my measurement.
I appreciate the correction.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:53:35 -0500, tm wrote:

This board depends on AC power being applied to the
alarm unit

Oh! That would make a huge difference since the AC transformer
is out of commission at the moment (waiting for the replacement
to arrive).

Thanks for that helpful advice!

Maybe I should only test it with the AC transformer in place?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:53:35 -0500, tm wrote:

This board depends on AC power being applied to the
alarm unit

Oh! That would make a huge difference since the AC transformer
is out of commission at the moment (waiting for the replacement
to arrive).

Thanks for that helpful advice!

Maybe I should only test it with the AC transformer in place?


Just bump it with the 12 volts from the battery. That will pull in the relay
and latch the output. When the voltage falls below the 9 volt limit, the
relay will drop out and disconnect the battery completely.

Just for the fun of it when you go the RS, you might pick up an in line fuse
(3 amp or so) and put it in the red battery lead. that will keep the fire
from starting. Get yourself a supply of fuses just in case. I don't see
any fuses on the boards at all.

When you get this working, next thing to do is disconnect all the other
panels from the main unit. Tag all the wires so you know where they go. That
way, you can narrow down any power issues to just the main board.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:41:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

The transformer is obviously dead. Replace it immediately. This
will at least let you know if the system will work with the transformer
functional. Step two would be to figure out what is wrong with
the battery back-up. Have you checked for fuses, yet?

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/1...69e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/1...0ebeea29_o.gif


The bottom three terminals with the Green, Red, and red and black wires are
the power to your external panels. Normally, the green is a data line, the
black should be a negative 12 volt line and the red should be +12 volts. If
someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit to the power
supply and battery. You might want to go through all the mess and clean it
up. A fault there could also explain the transformer failure.

On 11/25/2013 6:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!




Easy pal, it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious. I mean things you've done for so many
years, that you do them without thinking. I'll play a hunch on gear
that's broken because I've seen so many failures of the same type or
similar equipment for many years. I often find problems using just my
eyes and my nose. I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying
glass to look to look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.
I often do a wiggle test on vertically mounted components like the
filter capacitors to check for broken solder joints on a circuit board
then I often twist the board when it's powered up to check it for bad or
intermittent connections. It's often a big mistake to assume another
fellow has done tests that I would do without thinking about it. ^_^

TDD

Danny D'Amico wrote:

Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.


There is a hell of a lot that you don't know. None of these give you
accurate information about a capacitor.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On 11/25/2013 7:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!



A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
observe things that us key board professionals won't
see.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:29:55 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
observe things that us key board professionals won't

I love the term "key board professionals"!

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

On 11/26/2013 7:18 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!


I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^

TDD

On 11/26/2013 8:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^

TDD

I'm also nearsighted. Zenni Optical has been kind
enough to provide me inexpensive eye glasses. I've
got daily wear glasses. With some creative tweaks
of the Rx, I've also gotten reading glasses which
are nice for reading, or for working on the
soldering, grinder, etc. Good to have some
plastic in front of my eyes.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:46:42 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

AMEN!

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"
the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

Sometimes things are right in front of your face but you can't see it.
The committee in my head gets in the dang way

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro
processor chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...


the alarm system board, which might just be the problem.

I often find problems using just my eyes and my nose.

Agreed. I see the burnt leads to the cap with my eyes; and I smelled
the burnt transformer with my nose.

I use a small flashlight or my lighted magnifying glass to look to
look for cracks or loose components on a circuit board.

I agree; the best initial diagnostic is a good set of eyes going over
every inch of the board!

Sometimes things are right in front of your face but you can't see it.
The committee in my head gets in the dang way

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro processor
chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...



It really isn't necessary to be an asshole here. The OP has done a good job
considering his lack of electronics knowledge and very limited test
equipment. And no schematics! The "chip" has all the markings sanded off. So
tell us all, what it the part number of the processor?

tm

tm wrote:

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro
processor chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain
and hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...



It really isn't necessary to be an asshole here. The OP has done a good
job considering his lack of electronics knowledge and very limited test
equipment. And no schematics! The "chip" has all the markings sanded
off. So tell us all, what it the part number of the processor?

tm
Hmmm.
He is not even following up on quite a few good suggestions presented
here, I lost interest trying to help. I am not a baby sitter, I am not a
spoon feeder, all I can is giving pointers, suggestions and tips.

If he really want to tackle the problem, the board has to be removed to
work bench and go through it step by step. Wish him all the luck.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 08:59:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/26/2013 8:54 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I'm visually impaired, which means I'm very nearsighted so I use a
penlight now tiny led flashlights to illuminate the circuit board which
I must hold very close to my face after removing my eyeglasses in order
to see what I'm doing. Some folks think it's funny to see me hold a
piece of gear right up in my face. ^_^

TDD

I'm also nearsighted. Zenni Optical has been kind
enough to provide me inexpensive eye glasses. I've
got daily wear glasses. With some creative tweaks
of the Rx, I've also gotten reading glasses which
are nice for reading, or for working on the
soldering, grinder, etc. Good to have some
plastic in front of my eyes.

Don't rely on eyeglasses as safety devices. I just had a pair break.
About 25% of a lens broke off, leaving a nice sharp point and two
sharp edges on both pieces. Fortunately the glasses went the other
way and I didn't get cut. The optometrist said "that can't happen",
but it did. They replaced them without an issue, though.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

So, you would give your friend a price on *your* cell phone without
any intention of selling it? Do you think Bosch is your friend?

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

Gee, they won't violate their contract with each other. How odd.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

Bosch has done no such thing. "The market" is not their parts. Buy
a system from someone else, if you don't like the way they do
business.

On 11/26/2013 12:47 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:18:19 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

I agree.
I hoping, for example, that someone knows a good way to "reset"

Crying out loud!!! Find a reset or master clear pin on the micro
processor chip and jumper it to ground for few seconds... reset done.
Is it so difficult for you? You are just mouth, where is your brain and
hands? Where is the pin number? Look up the chip data sheet...


Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

TDD

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:52:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!




Easy pal, it's hard to diagnose a problem with even simple electronic
systems without hands on it and doing things to test it that actually
come out of your subconscious.

....after that, we need to redneck it a bit, hold your tongue out and
adjust it just right...check if fer bein' cock-eyed or wampus-kitty

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:29:55 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

A good tech on the scene can take meter readings, and
observe things that us key board professionals won't
see.

Speak for yourself...will ya...there!
--
"People who worry about crocodiles are smart!" -Joe Machi

wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

So, you would give your friend a price on *your* cell phone without
any intention of selling it? Do you think Bosch is your friend?

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

Gee, they won't violate their contract with each other. How odd.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

Bosch has done no such thing. "The market" is not their parts. Buy
a system from someone else, if you don't like the way they do
business.


This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business back
in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the company,
unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000 a year with them.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 01:33:21 -0500, tm wrote:

If someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit
to the power supply and battery.

The alarm has been working for years, so, I'm pretty sure the wires
didn't all of a sudden get changed.

The good news is that the new transformer arrived today.

However, the voltage output wasn't at all what I had expected from a
16.5VAC transformer secondary.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/1...7612e531_o.gif

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary
b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

Huh?

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:49:01 -0500, krw wrote:

Buy a system from someone else, if you don't like the way
they do business.

For two reasons, that is exactly what I would do were I to build
a system of my own, from assembled parts.

1. You can't get the Bosch parts anyway, so, nobody can build their
own system out of Bosch parts, and,

2. Even if I could get Bosch parts, I wouldn't build a system out
of restricted parts, simply because it would be difficult to
expand and repair in the future.

However, when I asked today at a few intrusion alarm places, they
told me that the "reason" Bosch is restrictive is to prevent
intelligent burglaries.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:50:39 -0500, tm wrote:

It is a real simple circuit. There is an NPN transistor (Q1) that drives the
relay. The black diode is across the relay coil to protect the transistor.
The other diode is a zener in series with the 2.4 k resistor to the base of
the transistor. When the battery voltage is above 9.x volts, the zener will
conduct and turn on the transistor that will in turn operate the relay. The
relay will make the connection from the red wire to the battery (W1) to the
J2 terminal marked power. It will supply voltage to the alarm panel until
the battery voltage drops below the zener diode conduction point.

Hi tm,

That was a FANTASTIC explanation!
You're one of the reasons why the USENET is so great!
Thank you very much for that detailed explanation.

I picked up an electrolytic cap, and I will replace it, and test the
battery-protection circuit out.

Charge your battery for a while and see if it will light a simple tail light
bulb. Measure the battery with the bulb connected and lit.

It failed this loaded test. So, now I know I have a bad battery and a
bad transformer.

Luckily, the *new* 16.5VAC transformer arrived.

It sure tested funny:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/1...7612e531_o.gif

a) Secondary output = 20VAC
b) One side to ground = 3.5 Volts
c) The other side to ground = 1 Volt

Anyway, the moment I plugged that transformer in, the battery charging
circuit came to life at 13.6 Volts:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...deb1394f_o.gif

And, the alarm system control panel powered up & beeped (almost) normally:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...e09daa9a_o.gif

With the battery in, or out, it gave the following error:
*ALL ON, SYSTEM TROUBLE*
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/1...d907e787_o.gif

And, when I tried to read the error, it merely said:
*CALL FOR SERVICE*
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/1...cb163704_o.gif

I'm not sure how to get the actual service problem, but, I am pretty
sure it's the battery now that the new transformer is in place.

So, I'll google for a good source of batteries online.
(Any suggestions or are they all essentially the same?)

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 01:33:21 -0500, tm wrote:

If someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit
to the power supply and battery.

The alarm has been working for years, so, I'm pretty sure the wires
didn't all of a sudden get changed.

The good news is that the new transformer arrived today.

However, the voltage output wasn't at all what I had expected from a
16.5VAC transformer secondary.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/1...7612e531_o.gif

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary
b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

Huh?


That's normal. The secondary winding is floating. What voltage do you see
across the aux terminals (DC)?

Is a) above with the transformer connected to the alarm board?

Get a fuse in line with the secondary to save the transformer in case
something is shorted. You don't want to damage the new transformer. I would
use a fuse equal to the secondary current rating marked on the transformer.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:16:21 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You should. That Omron relay contats can be open or closed.
Is it NO or NC relay? Is the coil good? Have you metered them out?
What is the findings? Did you looked up the specs. of that very common
relay?

Now that the alarm system is (almost) fixed, I can spend the effort
to look more closely at this D135A battery protection circuit.
resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_2548187915.pdf
resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Installation_Guide_enUS_2548185099.pdf

Even though nobody will tell you a price, I found this Bosch price list
on the web:
http://www.industry.usa.siemens.com/...st-3-1-13.xlsx

The D135A retails for $22.56 according to that spreadsheet.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:46:42 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

There is a hell of a lot that you don't know.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:03:11 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is
the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener...
If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.

Hi Tony,
The new power transformer solved (almost) all the problems!

As soon as it arrived, I tested its output voltage (20 VAC),
which within the expected range:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/1...7612e531_o.gif

The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw)
was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and
1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Even so, the moment I plugged in the power transformer,
the D2212B circuit and the control panels came to life.
There is 13.6V at the battery terminals without the battery plugged in.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...deb1394f_o.gif

I think, in the end, the only things that were bad we
1. The transformer secondary blew out
2. The D135A capacitor seems to have been overheated
3. The battery is apparently bad

Luckily, all those are easy to fix!

I'm not sure *how* to read what the control panel is trying to
tell me since it only says "Call for Service", but, I'm pretty
sure it's trying to tell me the (bad) battery isn't connected.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/1...d907e787_o.gif
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/1...cb163704_o.gif

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 12:36:59 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

If he really want to tackle the problem, the board has to be removed to
work bench and go through it step by step. Wish him all the luck

Luckily, all it (mostly) needed was a new power transformer!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...deb1394f_o.gif

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:16:21 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You should. That Omron relay contats can be open or closed.
Is it NO or NC relay? Is the coil good? Have you metered them out?
What is the findings? Did you looked up the specs. of that very common
relay?

Since the D135A is to protect the battery, I assumed it's not
actually *required* for operation.

So, I concentrated first, and foremost on replacing the AC power
supply.

Luckily, that worked!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...e09daa9a_o.gif

Sort of ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/1...d907e787_o.gif

My next step is to replace the battery.

If I were a repair technician, I'd have all these parts in stock,
but I don't, so, it takes me a while to get them from the
manufacturer.

PS: The application calls for a 12V, 5AH to 7 AH gel cell.
Assuming I get something in that range, are they all pretty much
alike, or are there caveats to buying these gel cells?

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:01:57 -0500, tm wrote:

That's normal. The secondary winding is floating.

Whew! I had expected a center-tapped transformer or something.

Thanks for setting my mind at ease on the odd voltages to the
ground lead.

The 20Volts I measured is probably because the RMS voltage must
be the 16.5Volts, so *that* part at least makes sense.

What voltage do you see across the aux terminals (DC)
with the transformer connected to the alarm board?

I measured 13.61 volts across the DC terminals with the AC
transformer in place.

That seems good, to me, if a bit low for charging a 12V battery.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...deb1394f_o.gif

Get a fuse in line with the secondary to save the transformer
in case something is shorted.

The transformer has a PTC fuse in the secondary.
But, I *do* agree with you.
I'm shocked there is no fuse.

I even asked at the intrusion alarm houses I visited today.
They said the board itself is protected from overloads, so,
nobody bothers with a fuse.

This reminds me of the situation with garage door torsion
springs where the "industry" puts in the cheapest spring
saving *them* ten bucks, but if you put in your own spring,
you *always* opt for the better (longer life) spring!

For me, I agree with you. I'm heading off to RadioShack
or Frys to get an inline fuse holder.

You don't want to damage the new transformer. I would
use a fuse equal to the secondary current rating marked
on the transformer.

It's a 16.5VAC (RMS) output, with a power of 45VA, so,
given I=P/V, I get I=45/16.5, where I is 2.7 Amps.

So, how does double that sound for a fuse, e.g.,
roughly around 5 Amps for the inline fuse for the
transformer secondary?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news
The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw)
was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and
1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have no experience with this type
of transformer. I wonder why they even have the center lug, but,
maybe it's for other applications.

If I were a technician, it wouldn't have taken this long to
get a replacement transformer, so I would have been at this
stage within the first hour had I a new one in stock.

The 12V 5AH battery also appears to be low, so, I'll get
a new one on the net. The one thing I'm worried about is
the terminal sizes.

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/el...hannelid=BCOME

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:32:09 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/el...hannelid=BCOME

Ooops. I pasted the wrong link (transposed the voltage and current rating).
Here's the link I had meant to post:
http://www.amazon.com/ELK-M1GSYS4-12.../dp/B00B1GMXZC

On 11/26/2013 10:55 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.


You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/

TDD

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:42:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

DSC makes pretty good stuff. ^_^
http://www.dsc.com/

Thanks for that reference, as its good to know what's
a good outfit from the plethora out there on the net.