"Jason" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 04:43:24 -0500 "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote in article KrCdnXhYy-


Les Cargill wrote:

I used to have to do the annual reinstall to clean up
the registry.


If you use the right tools to uninstall crap programs, you don't have
problems with the registry. Revo Uninstaller lets you use the program's
built in uninstaller, then will clean the remainder of the registry
entries and leftover folders. Prior to this, I edited the registry by
hand. The pro version is supposed to clean ot trash left from sloppy
uninstalls.

http://www.revouninstaller.com/revo_uninstaller_free_download.html

I endorse Revo, too. You have to be a little careful about its registry
cleanup if you choose the more "aggressive" post-uninstall scanning
options; it can propose to delete stuff that shouldn't be. For instance,
I have an Adobe CC subscription and created a CC folder. If I uninstall
an app and let Revo do it's aggressive thing, it'll try to zap entries to
other CC apps. It does warn you that the folder contains other apps, but
picking your way through all the possibilities is hopeless.

On a simpler note, the new IE update (11) is not recognized by the server at
work, which seems to call it a non-standard browser. It also does not work
well with dlink cameras. I have had to resort to using a IE 8 version
running on XP to make the softwre work where I want it too. IE 11 has
problems with other programs too. Java runtime seems to be banned by IE11.
You can download it, and it IE still won't recognize it.

"dave" wrote in message
m...
I don't fear Windows, I refuse to pay for an operating system,

Hard to get a laptop these days without Windows already included whether you
use it or not.
But hey if you also refuse to pay for the hardware, your problems are
solved! :-)


The Kernel has thousands of drivers already installed.

And more thousands not installed. Just as with Windows.


Please name a consumer device (other than Apple) that you would like to use
with Linux that had a driver issue. I have found Linux to be way more
plug-and-play than Windows,

Yes it is *IF* the hardware manufacturer bothers with Linux (still all too
rare) or the Linux developer types get around to writing them for free. You
may wait a long time (or forever) for stuff with a very small user base.

Trevor.

On 11/28/2013 12:28 AM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
I don't fear Windows, I refuse to pay for an operating system,

Hard to get a laptop these days without Windows already included whether you
use it or not.

Hard but not impossible, however I have no use for another notebook. The
fact that manufacturers include it free says something.

But hey if you also refuse to pay for the hardware, your problems are
solved! :-)

But hey are you suggesting I'm a thief?



The Kernel has thousands of drivers already installed.

And more thousands not installed. Just as with Windows.

Please name a consumer device (other than Apple) that you would like to use
with Linux that had a driver issue. I have found Linux to be way more
plug-and-play than Windows,

While we're talking about computers, operating systems, and Al...

Have you seen the commercial for the iPad Air? It appears Microsoft has
finally forced Apple into defensive advertising. The ad talks about all the
things you can actually /do/ on an iPad -- a machine without a useful keyboard
or pointing device * -- "start a poem, finish a symphony". ** Apple has always
been more about image than what you can actually do with their products.

* I've used an iPad once. Bleh. Touchscreens don't work as easily as we are
led to believe. There is a learning curve. (The touchpad on my notebook, and
the gestural input for my graphics tablet, are comparably not-easy.)

** That particular part of the commercial parodies a famous Irving Penn
photograph.

https://www.google.com/search?q=irvi...620&bih=106 0

On 28/11/2013 13:09, dave wrote:
On 11/28/2013 12:28 AM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
The Kernel has thousands of drivers already installed.

And more thousands not installed. Just as with Windows.

Please name a consumer device (other than Apple) that you would like to use
with Linux that had a driver issue. I have found Linux to be way more
plug-and-play than Windows,

You seem to have ignored the list I posted earlier.....

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 11/28/2013 05:50 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 28/11/2013 13:09, dave wrote:
On 11/28/2013 12:28 AM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
The Kernel has thousands of drivers already installed.

And more thousands not installed. Just as with Windows.

Please name a consumer device (other than Apple) that you would like
to use
with Linux that had a driver issue. I have found Linux to be way more
plug-and-play than Windows,

You seem to have ignored the list I posted earlier.....


A camera? A smart-card reader? did you lsusb them to get chipset
information? There are several packages in the Ubuntu world for handling
RAW files.

http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-a.../msg94052.html

You do need to do a little digging, which is where Linux really shines;
nobody offers you a solution upon receipt of payment. It's all for the
love of the medium. The open source world is dripping wet with good karma.

"William Sommerwerck" writes:

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
nacquisition...

Wow! Someone who has heard of FM!!

FrameMaker (not to be confused with PageMaker) was originally created for some
OS other than Windows.

Right... Several UNIX platforms -- Sun, NeXT, SCO, HP (among others), and Mac.
Windows was added at FM4, 1993-ish, IIRC. (I knew the guy who led the port to
Windows. Good fellow, very savvy engineer. I jokingly asked him if he felt the need
for a stay at a mental health spa after that effort. He nodded vigorously.)

I used it for a while about 15 years ago, in its first
Windows incarnation. It had the most-poorly designed dialog boxes for any
piece of software I have ever used.

Not sure what you were seeing. The UI was fairly consistent among the various
platforms, though because of the underlying dictates of the windows UI resources
sometimes things were a bit squirrely.

At least back then, they chose system resources rather than create their own so as
to reflect each user's general tweaks to the UI. These days, they have a custom
windowing system, which I don't like because (a) it reflects none of my general
windows tweaks and (b) they don't provide much in the way of appearance tweaks in
their custom system! (Re-inventing the wheel and making it square...)

In general FM dialogs could get confusing because they are very dense -- lots of
stuff you can do. While a little off-putting at first, once you got used to this
you appreciate having so much power close at hand.

Contrast to Interleaf (competitor of the day) when most things were 3-4 menu pulls
down with few or no keyboard shortcuts, and lots of clicking through "single
purpose" dialogs -- THAT was crazy-making if you wanted any speed with the UI.


I hope it's gotten better.

Yes and no; YMMV. While the new UIs since FM9 are more "contemporary," many of us
who have used FM for 20+ years don't like the new UI dictates (I still use 10 year
old FM7 for most of my daily doc needs, as do many folks). As with many applications
these days, some UI designers think they know best and force you into something
that's far less efficient.

It's unsettling how often UI folks don't actually use the product they're working on
-- they just do what seems pretty with little understanding of the work flows.

Last fall, at Adobe's invitation, I spent 90 minutes on the phone with the new UI
guy for FM pleading with him to keep certain UI needs and standards in mind. Mostly,
doc professionals were sick of "cute" and just wanted the damn UI to not get in
their way. I think he got the message, and I was not the only one making the same
complaints. We shall see what comes along...

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

On 28/11/2013 14:59, dave wrote:
Stuff not working under Linux
A camera? A smart-card reader? did you lsusb them to get chipset
information? There are several packages in the Ubuntu world for handling
RAW files.

But not, as far as I can tell, the ones generated by this particular
camera. Fuji have recently changed their RAW file format.

http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-a.../msg94052.html

My Zoom R24 doesn't appear to be covered.

You do need to do a little digging, which is where Linux really shines;
nobody offers you a solution upon receipt of payment. It's all for the
love of the medium. The open source world is dripping wet with good karma.

And the Windows world is full of stuff that "just works". I like this
idea, it frees me up to actually do stuff rather than fight the computer.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"Neil Gould" writes:

Frank Stearns wrote:
"Neil Gould" writes:

snips

Those programs are not for technical writing or publishing. Even
Adobe keeps FrameMaker alive and well because it is the only
surviving alternative to Ventura for that purpose. For my active
clients, I only use FrameMaker because it has kept abreast of the
rather significant changes to the publishing industry since the last
update of Ventura.


snips

I just met with a client this morning whose tech documents are done in FM!

IIRC, my first copy of FM was 3, prior to Adobe's acquisition of Frame, Inc.
At that point, it was no match for VP technically, but its cross-platform
abilities were a big plus. Then, Corel acquired VP and managed to screw it
up for a few years, during which time Adobe improved FM's ability to handle
type and color properly, among other things. Today, FM is the most viable
app for technical documents, IMO, largely because Corel dropped the ball.
Although some folks complain about FM's UI (it isn't anywhere near as
flexible as VP's), it has not been a problem for me, and I appreciate that
fact that it has remained "familiar" for decades. That's rather atypical for
Adobe apps, which shuffle their UI with regularity.


I used VP for a couple of client projects. Can't remember if it was Corel or not.

I initially liked what I saw and was looking forward to using it -- until things
started going wrong in small and large ways at every turn. Made me crazy as hell,
and the usual issues with support. "Oh, yes, sorry; that is a known problem;" or,
"don't know about that;" and the classic "Please reinstall" with the classic
response, "I've done that 10 times, no change..."

FM was typically very stable. I loved FM3 under Sunview on my Sparc station, but it
was of limited capability compared to the needs of the current day. Eventually, I
was forced over to windows for a number of business reasons.

FM conquered with FM4, and the introduction of their fabulous Table Editor -- still
from what I've seen the best thing out there for tables.

Combine that with FM's very powerful numbering system, their book system,
long-document capabilities, and now multiple delivery paths, and it is likely still
a "best buy" -- assuming you need that kind of power.

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

"John Williamson" wrote in message ...

And the Windows world is full of stuff that "just works". I like this idea,
it frees me up to actually do stuff rather than fight the computer.

This is generally true. If a device doesn't have a driver, Windows will search
for one (locally or the Web). It usually comes up with the right one (or a
good one).

Driver problems are usually related to the manufacturer's failure to update
them. This gets customers Very Angry at having to abandon a product they like
(qv, the HP see-through scanner) or having to buy a new one.

A good example is the classic Palm T3 (and related PDAs). There /were/ updated
drivers, but no way to install them easily, because simply plugging the
interface cradle into a USB port didn't trigger a search for the correct
driver. The trick was to press the sync button on the cradle, then -- during
the 60 seconds or so Windows was trying to make contact -- have the Hardware
Wizard install the driver.

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...
"William Sommerwerck" writes:

I used it for a while about 15 years ago, in its first Windows incarnation.
It had the most-poorly designed dialog boxes for any piece of software
I have ever used.

Not sure what you were seeing. The UI was fairly consistent among the
various platforms, though because of the underlying dictates of the
Windows UI resources sometimes things were a bit squirrely.

They were simply lousy -- poor layout, poor of choice what a particular dialog
box contained, etc. Whoever designed them apparently had no experience with or
understanding of DTP.


In general FM dialogs could get confusing because they are very dense --
lots of stuff you can do. While a little off-putting at first, once you got
used to this you appreciate having so much power close at hand.

I didn't. A dialog box should contain a closely related set of functions.


Contrast to Interleaf (competitor of the day) when most things were 3-4 menu
pulls down with few or no keyboard shortcuts, and lots of clicking through
"single
purpose" dialogs -- THAT was crazy-making if you wanted any speed with the
UI.

Neither Ventura nor PageMaker were like that. Word isn't like that.


I hope it's gotten better.

Yes and no; YMMV. While the new UIs since FM9 are more "contemporary,"
many of us who have used FM for 20+ years don't like the new UI dictates
(I still use 10 year old FM7 for most of my daily doc needs, as do many
folks).
As with many applications these days, some UI designers think they know
best and force you into something that's far less efficient.

I'll take clarity over efficiency any day.


It's unsettling how often UI folks don't actually use the product they're
working
on -- they just do what seems pretty with little understanding of the work
flows.

This is critical. No one should be allowed to design a product who does not
use it.


Last fall, at Adobe's invitation, I spent 90 minutes on the phone with the
new UI
guy for FM pleading with him to keep certain UI needs and standards in mind.
Mostly, doc professionals were sick of "cute" and just wanted the damn UI to
not
get in their way. I think he got the message, and I was not the only one
making
the same complaints. We shall see what comes along...

What is "cute"?

John Williamson wrote:
On 28/11/2013 14:59, dave wrote:
Stuff not working under Linux
A camera? A smart-card reader? did you lsusb them to get chipset
information? There are several packages in the Ubuntu world for handling
RAW files.

But not, as far as I can tell, the ones generated by this particular
camera. Fuji have recently changed their RAW file format.

That's not really a driver problem so much as an application problem, to
be honest.

If you want a really awful example, though, check out the National
Instruments PCI cards. National's Windows drivers pretty much work
and they are well documented and the tech support people know about them.
The Linux drivers... well, they sort of work. But they are so badly coded
that when they don't work they don't actually say that they are not working.
They'll fail to modload without giving any message, or they'll load but not
find any hardware without giving any message. They only work with certain
kernel versions, not with any 64-bit kernels or PAE kernels, but the manuals
don't say anything about that. Nobody in tech support knows a damn thing about
them, so you can pay by the minute on the tech support line to talk to someone
who has no idea even what dmesg is let alone what the driver is supposed to
be reporting.

Now, mind you, this is an NI issue and not a Linux issue, per se. But I do
encounter this a lot with companies who claim to support Linux but don't
really. (Not that a lot of the same companies also fail to support their
Windows stuff as well.)

You do need to do a little digging, which is where Linux really shines;
nobody offers you a solution upon receipt of payment. It's all for the
love of the medium. The open source world is dripping wet with good karma.

And the Windows world is full of stuff that "just works". I like this
idea, it frees me up to actually do stuff rather than fight the computer.

The nice thing about Linux is that you can look inside the box, so when it
fails to work, you can fix it. The nice thing about Windows is that it
usually just works. The problem is that when Windows systems fail to work,
you're pretty much out of luck because it's just that way and your tools for
real system-level debugging don't exist.

Given my choice, I'll run NetBSD. But usually I don't have a choice because
the application doesn't give me one.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 11/28/2013 07:19 AM, John Williamson wrote:
On 28/11/2013 14:59, dave wrote:
Stuff not working under Linux
A camera? A smart-card reader? did you lsusb them to get chipset
information? There are several packages in the Ubuntu world for handling
RAW files.

But not, as far as I can tell, the ones generated by this particular
camera. Fuji have recently changed their RAW file format.

http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-a.../msg94052.html

My Zoom R24 doesn't appear to be covered.

You do need to do a little digging, which is where Linux really shines;
nobody offers you a solution upon receipt of payment. It's all for the
love of the medium. The open source world is dripping wet with good
karma.

And the Windows world is full of stuff that "just works". I like this
idea, it frees me up to actually do stuff rather than fight the computer.


http://www.camerahacker.com/Digital/..._example.shtml

http://www.softpedia.com/reviews/lin...ew-49016.shtml

"William Sommerwerck" writes:

snips

Not sure what you were seeing. The UI was fairly consistent among the
various platforms, though because of the underlying dictates of the
Windows UI resources sometimes things were a bit squirrely.

They were simply lousy -- poor layout, poor of choice what a particular dialog
box contained, etc. Whoever designed them apparently had no experience with or
understanding of DTP.

I'm curious; do you remember a specific example?

Generally, things are related in an FM dialog; depends on how far down you want to
drill. For example, most everyone knows what a "paragraph" is, but related to DTP a
paragraph takes on many layers. Within the FM "paragraph designer" dialog, for
example, live 6 tabs with some 50-60 parameters in total. At first glance, this
might seem overwhelming. But start using it, and you appreciate the logical
divisions and clarity, given the information density.

But you also have to know enough about the product to see how this parameter set
relates to other things you might be doing.

Any complex app is like this; perhaps a real test is how well you can predict
how something works you don't know based on other things that you already know.

Protools looked really odd to me at first, but as I got to work through it, most of
it seemed fairly well thought out and I've learned to appreciate how PT deals with
high information density. But my initial impression was, "who designed this piece of
excrement?"

In general FM dialogs could get confusing because they are very dense --
lots of stuff you can do. While a little off-putting at first, once you got
used to this you appreciate having so much power close at hand.

I didn't. A dialog box should contain a closely related set of functions.

See above.


Contrast to Interleaf (competitor of the day) when most things were 3-4 menu
pulls down with few or no keyboard shortcuts, and lots of clicking through
"single
purpose" dialogs -- THAT was crazy-making if you wanted any speed with the
UI.

Neither Ventura nor PageMaker were like that. Word isn't like that.

And these three products are for different groups of users. The one that's closest
to FM is probably VP. PageMaker (distant weak cousin of In Design) is more for
display and design work, not so much for long documents.

Each is great for what they do. For example, I would never suggest that someone
writing a 2-4 page business letter fire up FM unless they really know it well. By
all means, use Word. Use PM for newsletters. But for that kind of work, Word will
likely break; FM will do it but you're using a complicated, big machine to swat a
fly.

At the same time, I would never suggest that the doc set for a Boeing 747 be put
together with Word, PM, or even Ventura. Those 80,000 (or so) pages are best handled
by FM or something like it. (My personal record with FM was a 9,000 page doc set, hw
and sw, in some 21 volumes, for an high-speed I/O computer. FM easily handled
this. As an aside, it was simple to create a master TOC and master index.)


I hope it's gotten better.

Yes and no; YMMV. While the new UIs since FM9 are more "contemporary,"
many of us who have used FM for 20+ years don't like the new UI dictates
(I still use 10 year old FM7 for most of my daily doc needs, as do many
folks).
As with many applications these days, some UI designers think they know
best and force you into something that's far less efficient.

I'll take clarity over efficiency any day.

Again, depends on your goals and needs. And are we talking surface clarity or deep
clarity? Sometimes the two are in conflict.

If a superficial level of "clarity" reduces an expert user's speed by even 10%, I'd
probably not want to change the UI. At 50% or more, leave the UI alone, period. Find
another product for the user who wants a "simpler" UI.

A better solution might be a configurable UI, with higher-level UI "personality"
settings for expert or novice. (There is a subset of that in FM now and has been for
a while, but it's not called that directly and it really only scratches the
surface of the concept.)


It's unsettling how often UI folks don't actually use the product they're
working
on -- they just do what seems pretty with little understanding of the work
flows.

This is critical. No one should be allowed to design a product who does not
use it.

Yup. Absolutely. But that's not the way applications development works in too many
cases, unfortunately.

Last fall, at Adobe's invitation, I spent 90 minutes on the phone with the
new UI
guy for FM pleading with him to keep certain UI needs and standards in mind.
Mostly, doc professionals were sick of "cute" and just wanted the damn UI to
not
get in their way. I think he got the message, and I was not the only one
making
the same complaints. We shall see what comes along...

What is "cute"?

As one example, how about a small, drop shadowed, serifed font for dialog title
bars, stippled gray on a dark gray title bar background? I know that many of the
graphics folks get a tingle of excitement when they see such a thing, but for the
rest of us, it's an eye-aching outrage. Worse, because it's an app-specific
windowing system, you can't get to it to change it to something rational. At least
within Windows there are adjustments for such things.

Or, how about "pods" and "docks" that *might* lend clarity at first, but then
severely bog down the experienced user. (Fortunately, the more recent versions of
FM allow you to disable such "cute clutter" and get directly to where you want to
go, without "hand-holding" that becomes "hand-cuffed holding".

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you; my main abstract point is not to force one
UI design on all different levels of users doing different kinds of work.

And I'm in complete agreement when the UI of a complex app is seemingly a random
mess. Ugh. For the most part, though, FM is not in that camp.

Frank
Mobile Audio
--

"William Sommerwerck" writes:

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
nacquisition...

I used VP for a couple of client projects. Can't remember if it was Corel or
not.
I initially liked what I saw and was looking forward to using it -- until
things
started going wrong in small and large ways at every turn. Made me crazy as
hell,
and the usual issues with support. "Oh, yes, sorry; that is a known problem;"
or,
"don't know about that;" and the classic "Please reinstall" with the classic
response, "I've done that 10 times, no change..."

Oddly, I never had problems -- except for figuring out column balance.

You probably had a Corel version. Corel added needed features, but also
eliminated the modular document format, which is unbelievable.

That's probably the case -- I don't recall seeing a "modular doc format" item. From
the sound of it, perhaps this was something like FM's "book" feature". And it would
be the height of stupidity were FM ever to delete the book system. Fortunately,
they've only made it better.

I worked around most of the VP bugs, but the killer was the placement of tables and
figures. Settings for "place here" or "float to next page" did not work. At random,
those items wound up at the end of the file, many pages away, sometimes in random
order. Maddening.

Frank
Mobile Audio

--

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
...
"William Sommerwerck" writes:

You probably had a Corel version. Corel added needed features, but also
eliminated the modular document format, which is unbelievable.

That's probably the case -- I don't recall seeing a "modular doc format"
item.

There was no such "item". The earlier versions of Ventura kept /everything/ in
separate files -- text, graphics, file locations, style sheets, etc. And all
the files were plain-text readable! (Thank you, Xerox!) One of the nice things
about this is that you could change the document's style just by substituting
a different style sheet -- a particularly useful feature if you wanted to
publish both paper and Web documents.

Unfortunately, Corel started wadding up everything into a single file. This
meant you had to create completely separate documents (rather than just style
sheets). And heaven help you if the file became corrupted -- you could lose
everything.


From the sound of it, perhaps this was something like FM's "book" feature".

It isn't. In Ventura, a book is a collection of chapters.


I worked around most of the VP bugs, but the killer was the placement of
tables and
figures. Settings for "place here" or "float to next page" did not work. At
random,
those items wound up at the end of the file, many pages away, sometimes in
random
order. Maddening.

It sounds as if you had the first Corel edition, v5. It had disastrous bugs,
including the one you describe. Corel had to issue a corrected version. Didn't
they tell you?

On 11/28/2013 2:09 PM, dave wrote:
On 11/28/2013 12:28 AM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
I don't fear Windows, I refuse to pay for an operating system,

Hard to get a laptop these days without Windows already included
whether you
use it or not.

Hard but not impossible, however I have no use for another notebook. The
fact that manufacturers include it free says something.

But hey if you also refuse to pay for the hardware, your problems are
solved! :-)

But hey are you suggesting I'm a thief?



The Kernel has thousands of drivers already installed.

And more thousands not installed. Just as with Windows.

Please name a consumer device (other than Apple) that you would like to use
with Linux that had a driver issue. I have found Linux to be way more
plug-and-play than Windows,

try:
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog...rs-gnu-linux-2

On 11/28/2013 2:52 AM, conklin wrote:
"Jason" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 04:43:24 -0500 "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote in article KrCdnXhYy-


Les Cargill wrote:

I used to have to do the annual reinstall to clean up
the registry.


If you use the right tools to uninstall crap programs, you don't have
problems with the registry. Revo Uninstaller lets you use the program's
built in uninstaller, then will clean the remainder of the registry
entries and leftover folders. Prior to this, I edited the registry by
hand. The pro version is supposed to clean ot trash left from sloppy
uninstalls.

http://www.revouninstaller.com/revo_uninstaller_free_download.html

I endorse Revo, too. You have to be a little careful about its registry
cleanup if you choose the more "aggressive" post-uninstall scanning
options; it can propose to delete stuff that shouldn't be. For instance,
I have an Adobe CC subscription and created a CC folder. If I uninstall
an app and let Revo do it's aggressive thing, it'll try to zap entries to
other CC apps. It does warn you that the folder contains other apps, but
picking your way through all the possibilities is hopeless.

On a simpler note, the new IE update (11) is not recognized by the server at
work, which seems to call it a non-standard browser. It also does not work
well with dlink cameras. I have had to resort to using a IE 8 version
running on XP to make the softwre work where I want it too. IE 11 has
problems with other programs too. Java runtime seems to be banned by IE11.
You can download it, and it IE still won't recognize it.

This is a dlink problem. They claim the camera is working with apple,
but doesn't work on a Mac.

"dave" wrote in message
...
On 11/28/2013 12:28 AM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
I don't fear Windows, I refuse to pay for an operating system,

Hard to get a laptop these days without Windows already included whether
you
use it or not.

Hard but not impossible, however I have no use for another notebook. The
fact that manufacturers include it free says something.

It's definitely NOT free, it's included in the price you pay. That they
*choose* to pay Microsoft says something too.



But hey if you also refuse to pay for the hardware, your problems are
solved! :-)

But hey are you suggesting I'm a thief?

Nope, just that you don't need a free operating system if you don't buy a
computer.

Trevor.

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2013 13:09, dave wrote:
On 11/28/2013 12:28 AM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
The Kernel has thousands of drivers already installed.

And more thousands not installed. Just as with Windows.

Please name a consumer device (other than Apple) that you would like to
use
with Linux that had a driver issue. I have found Linux to be way more
plug-and-play than Windows,

You seem to have ignored the list I posted earlier.....

Wouldn't suit his agenda. He thinks HIS requirements are all there is.

Trevor.

"dave" wrote in message
m...
You do need to do a little digging, which is where Linux really shines;
nobody offers you a solution upon receipt of payment.


So you criticise Windows for needing support, but praise Linux for the same
reason?
The on-line user base for both OS is equally helpful IME.

Trevor.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
That's not really a driver problem so much as an application problem, to
be honest.

Exactly, FAR more applications for Windows.


If you want a really awful example, though, check out the National
Instruments PCI cards. National's Windows drivers pretty much work
and they are well documented and the tech support people know about them.
The Linux drivers... well, they sort of work. But they are so badly coded
that when they don't work they don't actually say that they are not
working.
They'll fail to modload without giving any message, or they'll load but
not
find any hardware without giving any message. They only work with certain
kernel versions, not with any 64-bit kernels or PAE kernels, but the
manuals
don't say anything about that. Nobody in tech support knows a damn thing
about
them, so you can pay by the minute on the tech support line to talk to
someone
who has no idea even what dmesg is let alone what the driver is supposed
to
be reporting.

Now, mind you, this is an NI issue and not a Linux issue, per se.

Nope, it's what I have been saying all along, MANY vendors do not feel there
are enough Linux users to spend money on supporting them with drivers,
software, bug fixes, or tech support. That's the way the world is, you put
you money where it does the most good.



But I do
encounter this a lot with companies who claim to support Linux but don't
really. (Not that a lot of the same companies also fail to support their
Windows stuff as well.)

True, but anyone who argues there is *more* support for Linux is a liar.


Given my choice, I'll run NetBSD. But usually I don't have a choice
because
the application doesn't give me one.

Exactly!

Trevor.

"dave" wrote in message
...
http://www.camerahacker.com/Digital/..._example.shtml

http://www.softpedia.com/reviews/lin...ew-49016.shtml

Color me unimpressed with all Linux photo apps compared to PS/Lightroom.
Most Linux apps are good value for money though :-)

Trevor.

On 11/28/2013 07:17 PM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
You do need to do a little digging, which is where Linux really shines;
nobody offers you a solution upon receipt of payment.


So you criticise Windows for needing support, but praise Linux for the same
reason?
The on-line user base for both OS is equally helpful IME.

Trevor.
Not at all. I criticize Windows for charging money for what others give
for free.

BTW: The Windows bundled with a new consumer PC is usually paid for by
the adware included with the OS bundle. PC makers include Windows
because Microsoft used monopolistic methods to crush any competition.

I'd be fine if they charged a reasonable fee, but over $200 is excessive
in light of what others charge for theirs, which I believe is zero.

Frank Stearns wrote:
"Neil Gould" writes:
(snips)
IIRC, my first copy of FM was 3, prior to Adobe's acquisition of
Frame, Inc. At that point, it was no match for VP technically, but
its cross-platform abilities were a big plus. Then, Corel acquired
VP and managed to screw it up for a few years, during which time
Adobe improved FM's ability to handle type and color properly, among
other things. Today, FM is the most viable app for technical
documents, IMO, largely because Corel dropped the ball. Although
some folks complain about FM's UI (it isn't anywhere near as
flexible as VP's), it has not been a problem for me, and I
appreciate that fact that it has remained "familiar" for decades.
That's rather atypical for Adobe apps, which shuffle their UI with
regularity.


I used VP for a couple of client projects. Can't remember if it was
Corel or not.

I initially liked what I saw and was looking forward to using it --
until things started going wrong in small and large ways at every
turn. Made me crazy as hell, and the usual issues with support. "Oh,
yes, sorry; that is a known problem;" or, "don't know about that;"
and the classic "Please reinstall" with the classic response, "I've
done that 10 times, no change..."

Sounds like Corel's VP5 thru 7... they were major screw-ups. I've never had
to reinstall xerox's VP 1.1 thru 4.1, nor Corel's VP8+.

FM conquered with FM4, and the introduction of their fabulous Table
Editor -- still from what I've seen the best thing out there for
tables.

Both VP and FM handle tables exceptionally well, which is one reason that
QuirkXPress, InDesign and other apps are not well suited for tech docs. It
isn't uncommon to have tables that run 20+ multi-column pages, and most apps
just can't do that. Other "must haves" include equations as typographic
text, mulitple cross references, and indexes, which both FM and VP do well.

Combine that with FM's very powerful numbering system, their book
system, long-document capabilities, and now multiple delivery paths,
and it is likely still a "best buy" -- assuming you need that kind of
power.

VP is also strong in long-document and multi-chapter functionality. I can't
say that there is much of a difference in capability between those two apps
in that regard. If by "mulitple delivery paths" you are referring to FM's
"conditional text" capabilities, I agree, but that isn't new, FM4 had that!

For me, one of the best features of FM is its MIF format. I've built 500
page technical products catalogs completely by programs written to parse
databases and create the pages without intervention using that feature.
--
best regards,

Neil

"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 11/28/2013 07:17 PM, Trevor wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
You do need to do a little digging, which is where Linux really shines;
nobody offers you a solution upon receipt of payment.

So you criticise Windows for needing support, but praise Linux for the
same
reason? The on-line user base for both OS is equally helpful IME.

Not at all. I criticize Windows for charging money for what others give
for free.

Fair enough since you obviously work for nothing and therfore can't possibly
pay for an OS right?


BTW: The Windows bundled with a new consumer PC is usually paid for by the
adware included with the OS bundle.

Rubbish, Micosoft CHARGES them/the buyer for the OS. Scumware is just a way
the hardware manufacturer makes a bit more profit, and most people remove it
anyway.


PC makers include Windows because Microsoft used monopolistic methods to
crush any competition.

What monopoly, YOU said Linux is a viable competitor didn't you? I believe
Apple also thinks they are :-)


I'd be fine if they charged a reasonable fee, but over $200 is excessive
in light of what others charge for theirs, which I believe is zero.

Since you can buy a laptop with Windows for $300, are you really supid
enough to think you are paying $200 of that for Windows, and also stupid
enough to suggest that is already paid for by scumware in the very same
post! So if it's paid for by scumware, you are getting it for free and
should be happy! :-)

Trevor.

PC makers include Windows because Microsoft used monopolistic
methods to crush any competition.

This was true in the days of MS-DOS, when Microsoft obliged computer makers to
put DOS on all their machines, if they wanted a license. Microsoft took a lot
of flak for that, and it eventually ended. I don't believe it occurs with
Windows.


I'd be fine if they charged a reasonable fee, but over $200 is excessive in
light of what others charge for theirs, which I believe is zero.

It depends on what you're getting. In theory, the product you pay most for
should give you the best quality, the rationale being that the manufacturer
will continually plow its profits into improving its product.

Unfortunately, Microsoft has demonstrated its inability (or unwillingness) to
produce an OS that's stable and bug-free. The reason Windows 7 was an
improvement over its predecessors is that Microsoft finally got wise and hired
some guy (I forget his name) who kicked butt.

I just read that Apple appears to be falling down on the -- uh -- job, and its
current OS release has many problems.

Steve Jobs supposedly admired Edwin Land, who said "One or two people can be
creative. A committee cannot." Great products (and Land certainly had his
share) are usually the result of a single, focused point of view. When he was
working on the SX-70, many people within the company said it wouldn't work.
Land didn't fire them -- but he kept away from them.

A similar problem exists with Linux -- there is no central authority dictating
what Linux should "look like" or how it should behave. This would appear to
make Linux susceptible to the same problem as most operating systems --
creeping featuritis.

In case you're wondering... I hate Apple and I hate Microsoft. Both companies
stink, the latter because its products rarely come up to the quality level you
expect, and the former because it lies, lies, lies.

I'm writing this on a computer running Windows 7 Professional 64. Though it
might surprise you, the system is stable and rarely locks up or has Weird
Problems. On the other hand, a friend of mine who used a Macintosh told me
(about seven years ago) that the OS "collapsed" and had to be reinstalled. It
happens.

On 30/11/2013 12:37, William Sommerwerck wrote:
PC makers include Windows because Microsoft used monopolistic
methods to crush any competition.

This was true in the days of MS-DOS, when Microsoft obliged computer
makers to put DOS on all their machines, if they wanted a license.
Microsoft took a lot of flak for that, and it eventually ended. I don't
believe it occurs with Windows.

From what I've read elsewhere, they no longer force Windows on
manufacturers officially, but if they don't buy licences for each
machine they build, then they are put on a much less favourable tariff
than if they do.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 11/30/2013 04:37 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
PC makers include Windows because Microsoft used monopolistic
methods to crush any competition.

This was true in the days of MS-DOS, when Microsoft obliged computer
makers to put DOS on all their machines, if they wanted a license.
Microsoft took a lot of flak for that, and it eventually ended. I don't
believe it occurs with Windows.


I'd be fine if they charged a reasonable fee, but over $200 is
excessive in light of what others charge for theirs, which I believe
is zero.

It depends on what you're getting. In theory, the product you pay most
for should give you the best quality, the rationale being that the
manufacturer will continually plow its profits into improving its product.

Unfortunately, Microsoft has demonstrated its inability (or
unwillingness) to produce an OS that's stable and bug-free. The reason
Windows 7 was an improvement over its predecessors is that Microsoft
finally got wise and hired some guy (I forget his name) who kicked butt.

I just read that Apple appears to be falling down on the -- uh -- job,
and its current OS release has many problems.

Steve Jobs supposedly admired Edwin Land, who said "One or two people
can be creative. A committee cannot." Great products (and Land certainly
had his share) are usually the result of a single, focused point of
view. When he was working on the SX-70, many people within the company
said it wouldn't work. Land didn't fire them -- but he kept away from them.

A similar problem exists with Linux -- there is no central authority
dictating what Linux should "look like" or how it should behave. This
would appear to make Linux susceptible to the same problem as most
operating systems -- creeping featuritis.

In case you're wondering... I hate Apple and I hate Microsoft. Both
companies stink, the latter because its products rarely come up to the
quality level you expect, and the former because it lies, lies, lies.

I'm writing this on a computer running Windows 7 Professional 64. Though
it might surprise you, the system is stable and rarely locks up or has
Weird Problems. On the other hand, a friend of mine who used a Macintosh
told me (about seven years ago) that the OS "collapsed" and had to be
reinstalled. It happens.

I don't hate either company; I even own an iPod touch. Like I said
previously when my XP netbook is no longer supported I will get a Win 7
premium used desktop from an authorized refurbisher for under $100, OS
inclusive.

I am on an old gamer machine right now, an ASUS P4 with liquid cooled 3
GHz Intel processors.

"dave" wrote in message
m...

I am on an old gamer machine right now, an ASUS P4
with liquid cooled 3 GHz Intel processors.

My previous computer was a P4T. Very nice.

dave wrote:

On 11/26/2013 01:37 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 11/25/2013 04:18 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

What about Android, kind sir?.


Are you really that stupid? Should we start calling you 'Always
Wrong V2.0'? The statistics for ALL VERSIONS were barely over 10%. I
know you're a union drone, and had the mandatory IBEW lobotomy, but
learn to read and think. YOu aren't clever, and you can't even troll
past the kindergarten level.

I am very stupid. I have autism and never finished high school. There.
Do you feel better now, Mr. Friendly?


Yawn. Do you feel better now for making fun of the disabled?


Are you always like this?


Yes. You've shown your ass several times, so it's no holds barred. I
use Window. I use Linux. I just bought a second Android tablet. The
first was defective, and died after a few weeks. I've used operating
systems you've never seen or heard of. The first was over 30 years ago.
The company that created that OS and built the hardware was out of
business. We had $60,000 tied up in the two systems, so I fixed both
hardware and software problems for the next three years. They bought new
computers after I quit. How many 8" single sided floppy disk drives have
you repaired or replaced?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"Trevor" wrote in message ...
"dave" wrote in message
...

support. Sure, Windows solutions are out there, but they involve
passwords and key codes and expiration dates and all manner of
distrust and I don't need any more of that. I do this for fun.

Rubbish, the same user groups support is available for Windows as
for Linux. I've used Windows since 3.0 and never once contacted
Microsoft, but I do appreciate their online knowledgebase.

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search. However, the
"official" help from Microsoft in these groups is sometimes terrible, with the
helper offering trivial solutions that the questioner has almost always tried.

On 12/01/2013 03:15 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 11/26/2013 01:37 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

dave wrote:

On 11/25/2013 04:18 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Are you always like this?


Yes. You've shown your ass several times, so it's no holds barred. I
use Window. I use Linux. I just bought a second Android tablet. The
first was defective, and died after a few weeks. I've used operating
systems you've never seen or heard of. The first was over 30 years ago.
The company that created that OS and built the hardware was out of
business. We had $60,000 tied up in the two systems, so I fixed both
hardware and software problems for the next three years. They bought new
computers after I quit. How many 8" single sided floppy disk drives have
you repaired or replaced?

I worked out of Blue Cross in Phoenix. We had hard disk drives the size
of washing machines, IBM punch cards (along with the room full of ladies
to keypunch them). 2 inch magnetic tape was another favored portable
mode of data transportation. As I recall the 8" [truly] floppy was still
in the lab stage at that point.

It took two stories of equipment to print a blue lock box full of
medical bills.

I was curious about the crude language, do you have anger issues?

On 12/02/2013 04:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Trevor" wrote in message ...
"dave" wrote in message
...

support. Sure, Windows solutions are out there, but they involve
passwords and key codes and expiration dates and all manner of
distrust and I don't need any more of that. I do this for fun.

Rubbish, the same user groups support is available for Windows as
for Linux. I've used Windows since 3.0 and never once contacted
Microsoft, but I do appreciate their online knowledgebase.

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search. However, the
"official" help from Microsoft in these groups is sometimes terrible,
with the helper offering trivial solutions that the questioner has
almost always tried.

Who uses Google? Why?

Try duckduckgo.com

"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 12/02/2013 04:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search. However,
the "official" help from Microsoft in these groups is sometimes terrible,
with the helper offering trivial solutions that the questioner has
almost always tried.

Who uses Google? Why?
Try duckduckgo.com

I just tried it with my recent printer problem. It was even worse than Google.

On 12/02/2013 05:17 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 12/02/2013 04:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search. However,
the "official" help from Microsoft in these groups is sometimes
terrible,
with the helper offering trivial solutions that the questioner has
almost always tried.

Who uses Google? Why?
Try duckduckgo.com

I just tried it with my recent printer problem. It was even worse than
Google.



I was speaking "in general". My Linux uses the same printer system as
Apple, CUPS. I have never had to fish for a printer driver, just agree
with the software.

duckduckgo doesn't save your browsing history or push certain names.

"dave" wrote in message
...
On 12/02/2013 05:17 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 12/02/2013 04:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search.
However, the "official" help from Microsoft in these groups is
sometimes terrible, with the helper offering trivial solutions
that the questioner has almost always tried.

Who uses Google? Why? Try duckduckgo.com

I just tried it with my recent printer problem. It was even worse than
Google.

I was speaking "in general". My Linux uses the same printer system as Apple,
CUPS. I have never had to fish for a printer driver, just agree with the
software.

Who's ever had to fish for HP printer drivers? "They're everywhere, they're
everywhere." My problem was not with the printer driver, anyhow. (I did find a
question from a decade ago about exactly my problem. Unfortunately, no one
came up with a resolution.)


duckduckgo doesn't save your browsing history or push certain names.

Then what's that sponsored link I see at the top?

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 05:27:56 -0800, dave wrote:

On 12/02/2013 05:17 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 12/02/2013 04:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search. However,
the "official" help from Microsoft in these groups is sometimes
terrible,
with the helper offering trivial solutions that the questioner has
almost always tried.

Who uses Google? Why?
Try duckduckgo.com

I just tried it with my recent printer problem. It was even worse than
Google.



I was speaking "in general". My Linux uses the same printer system as
Apple, CUPS. I have never had to fish for a printer driver, just agree
with the software.

duckduckgo doesn't save your browsing history or push certain names.

Man, this is developing into an "advocacy" ****ing contest. Leave him to
his Windows or Mac, you are only poking a bear. I, myself, use PCLinuxOS,
have since 2008. Before that, OS/2, never Windows. You're ****ing in
the wind with this guy.

On 12/02/2013 05:38 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
...
On 12/02/2013 05:17 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 12/02/2013 04:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search.
However, the "official" help from Microsoft in these groups is
sometimes terrible, with the helper offering trivial solutions
that the questioner has almost always tried.

Who uses Google? Why? Try duckduckgo.com

I just tried it with my recent printer problem. It was even worse than
Google.

I was speaking "in general". My Linux uses the same printer system as
Apple, CUPS. I have never had to fish for a printer driver, just agree
with the software.

Who's ever had to fish for HP printer drivers? "They're everywhere,
they're everywhere." My problem was not with the printer driver, anyhow.
(I did find a question from a decade ago about exactly my problem.
Unfortunately, no one came up with a resolution.)


duckduckgo doesn't save your browsing history or push certain names.

Then what's that sponsored link I see at the top?



That's a "sponsored link". That pays for the 2 story house DDG calls
headquarters.

On 12/02/2013 08:04 AM, sctvguy1 wrote:
On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 05:27:56 -0800, dave wrote:

On 12/02/2013 05:17 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"dave" wrote in message
m...
On 12/02/2013 04:50 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Agreed. You can almost find an answer with a Google search. However,
the "official" help from Microsoft in these groups is sometimes
terrible,
with the helper offering trivial solutions that the questioner has
almost always tried.

Who uses Google? Why?
Try duckduckgo.com

I just tried it with my recent printer problem. It was even worse than
Google.



I was speaking "in general". My Linux uses the same printer system as
Apple, CUPS. I have never had to fish for a printer driver, just agree
with the software.

duckduckgo doesn't save your browsing history or push certain names.

Man, this is developing into an "advocacy" ****ing contest. Leave him to
his Windows or Mac, you are only poking a bear. I, myself, use PCLinuxOS,
have since 2008. Before that, OS/2, never Windows. You're ****ing in
the wind with this guy.

clear