I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and ON-OFF-ON.

Duh...


"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right questions."
-- Edwin Land

"William Sommerwerck" wrote:
I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and ON-OFF-ON.

Duh...


"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right questions."
-- Edwin Land

How about on-on-on .

What does It use ?

I have a tendency to want to eliminate any controls, especially pots, yuk.

After assembling, then dissembling cabinets many times while testing
values, I started to mount the crossover on the outside for one of a kind
speakers !

Greg

"gregz" wrote in message
...

How about on-on-on?

That would be a DP3T.

What does It use?

DPDT, ON-OFF-ON.

I have a tendency to want to eliminate any controls, especially pots, yuk.

It has no pots. The switch controls the tweeter level.

"William Sommerwerck"

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and ON-OFF-ON.

Duh...


** The use of "none" in the descriptions of toggle switches seems to be a
new thing.

Google tells me that several makers are doing it but not when it was they
conspired to do so.

My Farnell catalogue (about 2 years old) has no such "none" sense in it.




.... Phil

On 10/27/2013 08:16 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"William Sommerwerck"

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and ON-OFF-ON.

Duh...


** The use of "none" in the descriptions of toggle switches seems to be a
new thing.

Google tells me that several makers are doing it but not when it was they
conspired to do so.

My Farnell catalogue (about 2 years old) has no such "none" sense in it.




... Phil



2 states v 3 states, no?

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
"William Sommerwerck"

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and
ON-OFF-ON. Duh...

The use of "none" in the descriptions of toggle switches seems to be a new
thing.
Google tells me that several makers are doing it but not when it was they
conspired to do so.
My Farnell catalogue (about 2 years old) has no such "none" sense in it.

I discovered my seeming ignorance when I read a catalog page that treated all
double-throw switches as if they had /three/ positions. Those /without/ a
center position received the NONE description.

"dave" wrote in message
...

2 states v 3 states, no?

No. Two positions versus three positions for a double-throw toggle.

NONE is for a two-position switch, OFF is for a "double-throw" switch with a
center position in which nothing is connected.

On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 06:38:23 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and ON-OFF-ON.

Duh...

Huh? Assuming a 3 position switch, and that it is impossible to have
a make before break feature in a 3 position switch, the two
designations are identical. What am I missing here?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 06:38:23 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the
process, I discovered I didn't know the difference between
ON-NONE-ON and ON-OFF-ON. Duh...

Huh? Assuming a 3 position switch, and that it is impossible to
have a make before break feature in a 3 position switch, the two
designations are identical. What am I missing here?

You're missing the fact that ON-NONE-ON is a two-position switch. When I read
the spec sheet, and saw that ON-NONE-ON was two-position, and ON-OFF-ON was
three-position, for the same switch series, the light finally went on.

I can refer you to spec sheets, if you like.

Jeff Liebermann forklarede:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 06:38:23 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and ON-OFF-ON.

Duh...

Huh? Assuming a 3 position switch, and that it is impossible to have
a make before break feature in a 3 position switch,

Why would that be impossible? If the switch have 1 input and 3 outputs.

Leif

--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf

On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf



ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

In article ,
"William Sommerwerck" wrote:

"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
"William Sommerwerck"

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process, I
discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and
ON-OFF-ON. Duh...

The use of "none" in the descriptions of toggle switches seems to be a new
thing.
Google tells me that several makers are doing it but not when it was they
conspired to do so.
My Farnell catalogue (about 2 years old) has no such "none" sense in it.

I discovered my seeming ignorance when I read a catalog page that treated all
double-throw switches as if they had /three/ positions. Those /without/ a
center position received the NONE description.

Have any of you ever run across what looks like a double pole double
throw that is actually a one pole three position?



1 T 2T T T T T
l /l /l /
l / l / l /
3 T/ 4T T/ l T/ T
l l l
l l l
5T 6T T T T T

fig 1 fig 2 fig 3

In all figures the hash marks between 3T and 2T represent an outside
shorting connection. The small case l's represent the "wiper" positions.
If you take 4T as the output and 1T,5T and 6T as inputs[or vise versa].
The Sw becomes a 1 pole 3 pos sw.

CP

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:57:55 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf

Sigh. Got it. All the desktop publishing computer jocky that created
the data sheet could have done was to put a big "X" in place of the
"NONE", or possibly left the box blank, and there would not be any
confusion. Extra credit if they had added a column with the number of
positions. In any case, it's not very clear as the designation SPDT
could be 2 or 3 positions. Usually, it's marked SPDT center off, from
which the designer is expected to deduce that this is a 3 position
switch. Argh.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"Phil Allison" wrote in message ...
"William Sommerwerck"

I've been selecting parts to upgrade a pair of Advents. In the process,
I discovered I didn't know the difference between ON-NONE-ON and
ON-OFF-ON. Duh...

The use of "none" in the descriptions of toggle switches seems to be a
new thing.
Google tells me that several makers are doing it but not when it was they
conspired to do so.
My Farnell catalogue (about 2 years old) has no such "none" sense in it.

I discovered my seeming ignorance when I read a catalog page that treated
all double-throw switches as if they had /three/ positions. Those
/without/ a center position received the NONE description.


I have not come across this, and it seems to me to be about the most
stupidly dopey change of spec for a component that could possibly have been
brought in. Why change what properly describes the poles and action of
toggles switches, and what everyone has perfectly understood for probably a
hundred years ?

Arfa

"Why change what properly describes the poles and action of
toggles switches, and what everyone has perfectly understood for probably a
hundred years ? ...."

You just don't get it. They must now "interpret" things like the Law and Constitution so everything is up for redefinition. Yes, that means you are all right and the world is all wrong.

Glad to be of help.

wrote in message ...

"Why change what properly describes the poles and action of
toggles switches, and what everyone has perfectly understood
for probably a hundred years? ...."

Agreed. I think most people understand that ON-ON describes a double-throw
switch with two positions, while ON-OFF-ON describes a double-throw switch
with three positions.

You just don't get it. They must now "interpret" things like the Law
and Constitution so everything is up for redefinition. Yes, that means
you are all right and the world is all wrong.

Courts have been interpreting the meaning and application of laws for hundreds
of years. This necessarily carries with it the interpretation of
constitutions.

On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf




ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port
switch can be.)

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...

"Why change what properly describes the poles and action of
toggles switches, and what everyone has perfectly understood
for probably a hundred years? ...."

Agreed. I think most people understand that ON-ON describes a double-throw
switch with two positions, while ON-OFF-ON describes a double-throw switch
with three positions.

You just don't get it. They must now "interpret" things like the Law
and Constitution so everything is up for redefinition. Yes, that means
you are all right and the world is all wrong.

Courts have been interpreting the meaning and application of laws for
hundreds of years. This necessarily carries with it the interpretation of
constitutions.


However, laws are complex and arbitrary things, open to interpretation.
Toggle switches are about the simplest piece of hardware you could imagine,
whose functional definition and operating characteristics, are not open to
even the slightest 'interpretation' by anyone other than a fool. I wonder
whether this has come about as a result of some Chinese or Korean linguistic
'mis-interpretation' ?

Arfa

"dave" wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf




ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Wouldn't that be 'or' rather than 'and' ??


Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port switch
can be.)

Neither of those statements make any electrical sense to me at all. By
"three port" do you mean (more conventionally) "three connection" ?? If
so, then yes, if it's a wall switch, then the only thing it is 'likely' to
be is SPDT, as I have never seen a wall switch with anything other than two
positions. However, in the case of a toggle switch, it's not strictly true,
as there are versions with a centre "off" position, and three connections
also, which is how this thread came about. The "DT" bit is then not *quite*
the case. It then becomes SPDTCO ...

Arfa

"Arfa Daily"

However, laws are complex and arbitrary things, open to interpretation.
Toggle switches are about the simplest piece of hardware you could
imagine, whose functional definition and operating characteristics, are
not open to even the slightest 'interpretation' by anyone other than a
fool. I wonder whether this has come about as a result of some Chinese or
Korean linguistic 'mis-interpretation' ?


** Imagine this conversation:

Chinese purchasing officer to C&K salesperson:

" OK so your SPDT switches are shown as ON in both positions -

so how do you switch them off ? "



.... Phil

Arfa Daily wrote:


"dave" wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf




ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Wouldn't that be 'or' rather than 'and' ??


Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port switch
can be.)

Neither of those statements make any electrical sense to me at all. By
"three port" do you mean (more conventionally) "three connection" ?? If
so, then yes, if it's a wall switch, then the only thing it is 'likely' to
be is SPDT, as I have never seen a wall switch with anything other than two
positions. However, in the case of a toggle switch, it's not strictly true,
as there are versions with a centre "off" position, and three connections
also, which is how this thread came about. The "DT" bit is then not *quite*
the case. It then becomes SPDTCO ...

Arfa

There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

There are also "4-way" switches available for controlling a light from
more than 2 locations.

"Jerry Peters" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:


"dave" wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf




ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Wouldn't that be 'or' rather than 'and' ??


Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra
pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port switch
can be.)

Neither of those statements make any electrical sense to me at all. By
"three port" do you mean (more conventionally) "three connection" ?? If
so, then yes, if it's a wall switch, then the only thing it is 'likely'
to
be is SPDT, as I have never seen a wall switch with anything other than
two
positions. However, in the case of a toggle switch, it's not strictly
true,
as there are versions with a centre "off" position, and three connections
also, which is how this thread came about. The "DT" bit is then not
*quite*
the case. It then becomes SPDTCO ...

Arfa

There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

There are also "4-way" switches available for controlling a light from
more than 2 locations.


Ah, ok. They must be something special to your side of the pond (assuming
that's the left, of course ...) Can't say that I've ever seen a three
position wall switch for dimming, nor a four position one, here. I've just
checked a catalogue that sells electrical fittings, and nothing like that
offered.

Arfa

"Arfa Daily" wrote:
"Jerry Peters" wrote in message ...
Arfa Daily wrote:


"dave" wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf




ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Wouldn't that be 'or' rather than 'and' ??


Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port switch
can be.)

Neither of those statements make any electrical sense to me at all. By
"three port" do you mean (more conventionally) "three connection" ?? If
so, then yes, if it's a wall switch, then the only thing it is 'likely' to
be is SPDT, as I have never seen a wall switch with anything other than two
positions. However, in the case of a toggle switch, it's not strictly true,
as there are versions with a centre "off" position, and three connections
also, which is how this thread came about. The "DT" bit is then not *quite*
the case. It then becomes SPDTCO ...

Arfa

There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

There are also "4-way" switches available for controlling a light from
more than 2 locations.


Ah, ok. They must be something special to your side of the pond (assuming
that's the left, of course ...) Can't say that I've ever seen a three
position wall switch for dimming, nor a four position one, here. I've
just checked a catalogue that sells electrical fittings, and nothing like that offered.

Arfa

I had one three position diode light switch in the basement. The problem,
some people would not turn it fully off, and leave it in the center.

Greg

Jeff Liebermann har bragt dette til os:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:57:55 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf

Sigh. Got it. All the desktop publishing computer jocky that created
the data sheet could have done was to put a big "X" in place of the
"NONE", or possibly left the box blank, and there would not be any
confusion. Extra credit if they had added a column with the number of
positions. In any case, it's not very clear as the designation SPDT
could be 2 or 3 positions. Usually, it's marked SPDT center off, from
which the designer is expected to deduce that this is a 3 position
switch. Argh.

I find it fairly obvious.
What is the connections in the center position?
Answer: "It is OFF" - A 3-position switch, center position OFF
Answer: "It is NONE" - A 2-position switch, there is NO center
position

An X would be less obvious.
Answer: "It is X" - I don't know / Crossed over / ????

At least you will only make this mistake once ;-)

Not to insult you, but are you self-taught, or have you formal
education in electronics, or some sort of apprenticeship? You should
have learned the meaning of switch-nomenclature there.

Leif

--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:19:51 +0000 (UTC) Jerry Peters
wrote in Message id: :


There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

Odd, I have one of those in the bathroom, but the *center* position is
off. Probably from the 1930's or 1940's, but I'm just guessing. The house
originally built in 1850 is knob and tube wiring, much of it replaced with
Romex.

"Leif Neland" wrote in message ...

Not to insult you, but are you self-taught, or have you formal education in
electronics, or some sort of apprenticeship? You
should have learned the meaning of switch-nomenclature there.

No insult taken.

The problem is that the use of NONE appears to be new, something I wasn't
aware of, as I haven't bought switches in several years.

The implication of NONE is that there's a third position with no electrical
connection. Of course, that isn't it at all. Hence the confusion.

On 10/30/2013 01:19 PM, Jerry Peters wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:


"dave" wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf




ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Wouldn't that be 'or' rather than 'and' ??


Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port switch
can be.)

Neither of those statements make any electrical sense to me at all. By
"three port" do you mean (more conventionally) "three connection" ?? If
so, then yes, if it's a wall switch, then the only thing it is 'likely' to
be is SPDT, as I have never seen a wall switch with anything other than two
positions. However, in the case of a toggle switch, it's not strictly true,
as there are versions with a centre "off" position, and three connections
also, which is how this thread came about. The "DT" bit is then not *quite*
the case. It then becomes SPDTCO ...

Arfa

There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

There are also "4-way" switches available for controlling a light from
more than 2 locations.

I was just wondering where the 4th contact would go on the 3 contact
light switch.

"JW" wrote in message news On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:19:51 +0000 (UTC) Jerry Peters
wrote in Message id: :

There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

Odd, I have one of those in the bathroom, but the *center* position is
off. Probably from the 1930's or 1940's, but I'm just guessing.

So there are two ON positions and one OFF?

On 10/30/2013 07:11 PM, Arfa Daily wrote:


"Jerry Peters" wrote in message
...
Arfa Daily wrote:


"dave" wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf





ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions
- ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Wouldn't that be 'or' rather than 'and' ??


Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra
pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port
switch
can be.)

Neither of those statements make any electrical sense to me at all. By
"three port" do you mean (more conventionally) "three connection"
?? If
so, then yes, if it's a wall switch, then the only thing it is
'likely' to
be is SPDT, as I have never seen a wall switch with anything other
than two
positions. However, in the case of a toggle switch, it's not strictly
true,
as there are versions with a centre "off" position, and three
connections
also, which is how this thread came about. The "DT" bit is then not
*quite*
the case. It then becomes SPDTCO ...

Arfa

There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

There are also "4-way" switches available for controlling a light from
more than 2 locations.


Ah, ok. They must be something special to your side of the pond
(assuming that's the left, of course ...) Can't say that I've ever seen
a three position wall switch for dimming, nor a four position one, here.
I've just checked a catalogue that sells electrical fittings, and
nothing like that offered.

Arfa

The imagination is a wonderful thing, but there are a lot of variations
on the wall mounted lamp dimmer, and 99% make my radios buzz.

In article , Jerry Peters
writes

There are also "4-way" switches available for controlling a light from
more than 2 locations.

We call those intermediate switches in the UK (in the context of
premises wiring).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch

scroll down to the "Contact terminology" table.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:02:00 +0100, Leif Neland
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann har bragt dette til os:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:57:55 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf

Sigh. Got it. All the desktop publishing computer jocky that created
the data sheet could have done was to put a big "X" in place of the
"NONE", or possibly left the box blank, and there would not be any
confusion. Extra credit if they had added a column with the number of
positions. In any case, it's not very clear as the designation SPDT
could be 2 or 3 positions. Usually, it's marked SPDT center off, from
which the designer is expected to deduce that this is a 3 position
switch. Argh.

I find it fairly obvious.
What is the connections in the center position?
Answer: "It is OFF" - A 3-position switch, center position OFF
Answer: "It is NONE" - A 2-position switch, there is NO center
position

An X would be less obvious.
Answer: "It is X" - I don't know / Crossed over / ????

Ok, something other than an "X" such as a blank box on the data sheet.
In my warped mind, "NONE" means "no connection" or "not connected"
which sorta implies that there is a terminal or position present.
Perhaps organizing the data sheet by the number of positions, instead
of the number of poles, might have been useful.

At least you will only make this mistake once ;-)

I never make the same mistake twice. It takes about 5 or 10 times for
me to get the clue.

Not to insult you, but are you self-taught, or have you formal
education in electronics, or some sort of apprenticeship? You should
have learned the meaning of switch-nomenclature there.

BSEE 1971 from Cal Poly, Pomona.
I think there's somewhat of a resume on LinkedIn:
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=2037517
The education part got truncated when LinkedIn morphed into looking
like Facebook. Add CSU Northridge add Santa Monica City College. None
of my post employement consulting jobs are listed. For additional
entertainment, search for my name in Google Groups:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!search/Jeff$20Liebermann
Hmmm... 82541 postings. However, you are correct about being
self-taught. Most of what I learned that was useful was post
graduation, when I discovered that I really didn't know everything. I
read, design, built, and of course, repair.

Should it really require a formal education in electronics to decode a
toggle switch data sheet? I don't think so.

Rhetorical question: What's the schematic symbol for a center off
switch? I couldn't find anything definitive:
http://www.edrawsoft.com/switch-symbols.php


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann skrev:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:02:00 +0100, Leif Neland
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann har bragt dette til os:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:57:55 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf

Sigh. Got it. All the desktop publishing computer jocky that created
the data sheet could have done was to put a big "X" in place of the
"NONE", or possibly left the box blank, and there would not be any
confusion. Extra credit if they had added a column with the number of
positions. In any case, it's not very clear as the designation SPDT
could be 2 or 3 positions. Usually, it's marked SPDT center off, from
which the designer is expected to deduce that this is a 3 position
switch. Argh.

I find it fairly obvious.
What is the connections in the center position?
Answer: "It is OFF" - A 3-position switch, center position OFF
Answer: "It is NONE" - A 2-position switch, there is NO center
position

An X would be less obvious.
Answer: "It is X" - I don't know / Crossed over / ????

Ok, something other than an "X" such as a blank box on the data sheet.
In my warped mind, "NONE" means "no connection" or "not connected"
which sorta implies that there is a terminal or position present.
Perhaps organizing the data sheet by the number of positions, instead
of the number of poles, might have been useful.

No connection is NC


Rhetorical question: What's the schematic symbol for a center off
switch? I couldn't find anything definitive:
http://www.edrawsoft.com/switch-symbols.php

I'd make the viper of the switch rest on a non-connected dot or circle.

Leif

--
Husk kørelys bagpå, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

On 10/31/2013 11:51 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:02:00 +0100, Leif Neland
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann har bragt dette til os:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:57:55 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf

Sigh. Got it. All the desktop publishing computer jocky that created
the data sheet could have done was to put a big "X" in place of the
"NONE", or possibly left the box blank, and there would not be any
confusion. Extra credit if they had added a column with the number of
positions. In any case, it's not very clear as the designation SPDT
could be 2 or 3 positions. Usually, it's marked SPDT center off, from
which the designer is expected to deduce that this is a 3 position
switch. Argh.

I find it fairly obvious.
What is the connections in the center position?
Answer: "It is OFF" - A 3-position switch, center position OFF
Answer: "It is NONE" - A 2-position switch, there is NO center
position

An X would be less obvious.
Answer: "It is X" - I don't know / Crossed over / ????

Ok, something other than an "X" such as a blank box on the data sheet.
In my warped mind, "NONE" means "no connection" or "not connected"
which sorta implies that there is a terminal or position present.
Perhaps organizing the data sheet by the number of positions, instead
of the number of poles, might have been useful.

At least you will only make this mistake once ;-)

I never make the same mistake twice. It takes about 5 or 10 times for
me to get the clue.

Not to insult you, but are you self-taught, or have you formal
education in electronics, or some sort of apprenticeship? You should
have learned the meaning of switch-nomenclature there.

BSEE 1971 from Cal Poly, Pomona.
I think there's somewhat of a resume on LinkedIn:
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=2037517
The education part got truncated when LinkedIn morphed into looking
like Facebook. Add CSU Northridge add Santa Monica City College. None
of my post employement consulting jobs are listed. For additional
entertainment, search for my name in Google Groups:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!search/Jeff$20Liebermann
Hmmm... 82541 postings. However, you are correct about being
self-taught. Most of what I learned that was useful was post
graduation, when I discovered that I really didn't know everything. I
read, design, built, and of course, repair.

Should it really require a formal education in electronics to decode a
toggle switch data sheet? I don't think so.

Rhetorical question: What's the schematic symbol for a center off
switch? I couldn't find anything definitive:
http://www.edrawsoft.com/switch-symbols.php



Would "n/a" have worked for you?

On 10/31/2013 12:15 PM, Leif Neland wrote:
Jeff Liebermann skrev:
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:02:00 +0100, Leif Neland
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann har bragt dette til os:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:57:55 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf


Sigh. Got it. All the desktop publishing computer jocky that created
the data sheet could have done was to put a big "X" in place of the
"NONE", or possibly left the box blank, and there would not be any
confusion. Extra credit if they had added a column with the number of
positions. In any case, it's not very clear as the designation SPDT
could be 2 or 3 positions. Usually, it's marked SPDT center off, from
which the designer is expected to deduce that this is a 3 position
switch. Argh.

I find it fairly obvious.
What is the connections in the center position?
Answer: "It is OFF" - A 3-position switch, center position OFF
Answer: "It is NONE" - A 2-position switch, there is NO center position

An X would be less obvious.
Answer: "It is X" - I don't know / Crossed over / ????

Ok, something other than an "X" such as a blank box on the data sheet.
In my warped mind, "NONE" means "no connection" or "not connected"
which sorta implies that there is a terminal or position present.
Perhaps organizing the data sheet by the number of positions, instead
of the number of poles, might have been useful.

No connection is NC


Rhetorical question: What's the schematic symbol for a center off
switch? I couldn't find anything definitive:
http://www.edrawsoft.com/switch-symbols.php

I'd make the viper of the switch rest on a non-connected dot or circle.

Leif


It's damn near impossible to get a rattler to do tricks.

dave wrote:
On 10/30/2013 01:19 PM, Jerry Peters wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:


"dave" wrote in message
...
On 10/28/2013 02:43 PM, John Robertson wrote:
On 10/28/2013 12:57 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf




ON - None - ON simply means the DPDT switch only has TWO positions - ON
& ON with no center spot (OFF). Consider it ON (A circuit) and ON (B
circuit) relative to the commons.

Wouldn't that be 'or' rather than 'and' ??


Think of a 3-Way switch as used in house wiring - but with an extra pole
- then it is obvious.

John :-#)#


A "3 Way" switch in the wall is an SPDT (the only thing a 3 port switch
can be.)

Neither of those statements make any electrical sense to me at all. By
"three port" do you mean (more conventionally) "three connection" ?? If
so, then yes, if it's a wall switch, then the only thing it is 'likely' to
be is SPDT, as I have never seen a wall switch with anything other than two
positions. However, in the case of a toggle switch, it's not strictly true,
as there are versions with a centre "off" position, and three connections
also, which is how this thread came about. The "DT" bit is then not *quite*
the case. It then becomes SPDTCO ...

Arfa

There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

There are also "4-way" switches available for controlling a light from
more than 2 locations.

I was just wondering where the 4th contact would go on the 3 contact
light switch.

The two ends, use 3-way switches, the 4-way switches go in series in
the 2 "hot" conductors between the 3-ways. The 4-way switch just
exchanges the 2 poles. Say you have inputs 1 & 2 and outputs A & B,
the two positions are Position 1: 1-A, 2-B Position 2: 1-B, 2-A.

JW wrote:
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:19:51 +0000 (UTC) Jerry Peters
wrote in Message id: :


There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

Odd, I have one of those in the bathroom, but the *center* position is
off. Probably from the 1930's or 1940's, but I'm just guessing. The house
originally built in 1850 is knob and tube wiring, much of it replaced with
Romex.

You may be right, perhaps it was center off. I replaced it for my dad
with a regular toggle type dimmer at least 10 years ago. That's the
only one I've ever seen, the house was built in 1984-85.

JW wrote:
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:19:51 +0000 (UTC) Jerry Peters
wrote in Message id: :


There are 3 position wall switches available. The middle position puts
a diode in series to dim the lights, full-on bypasses the diode. My
parents had one of these switches in their dining room, until the
diode opened, when it was replaced with a regular dimmer.

Odd, I have one of those in the bathroom, but the *center* position is
off. Probably from the 1930's or 1940's, but I'm just guessing. The house
originally built in 1850 is knob and tube wiring, much of it replaced with
Romex.

Come to think of it, it may have been center off. Oh boy, knob and tube.
I'm trying to deal with that right now.

Greg

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 20:15:57 +0100, Leif Neland
wrote:

No connection is NC

True. Unfortunately, this doesn't solve any of the problems and
questions I mentioned.

Rhetorical question: What's the schematic symbol for a center off
switch? I couldn't find anything definitive:
http://www.edrawsoft.com/switch-symbols.php

I'd make the viper of the switch rest on a non-connected dot or circle.

I was hoping to find something in IEC 60617 or ANSI Y32.16 specs.

Incidentally, the proper designation seems to be SPCO (single pole
center off) or SPTT (single pole triple throw) as found in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch
Note that the schematic symbol does not distringuish between these and
an ordinary SPDT switch. The problem is that's not the offical
ANSI/IEC symbol.
https://el.trc.gov.om/htmlroot/ENGG/tcolon/e_references/Consolidated/Circuit%20Diagram%20Standards%20Collection/Books/ANSI%20IEEE%20Std%20315A%201986.pdf
See Pg 15 4.3A.1.4 shows a SPDT switch with a center off position. It
shows the armature half way between the contacts. There are also many
other switch designations that I've only seen on industrial control
system schematics. Perhaps a college degree might be helpful in
untangling such switches.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Leif Neland" wrote in message
...
Jeff Liebermann har bragt dette til os:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:57:55 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

If anyone is still confused, look at page 2 of this document.
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/pro...S/70155763.pdf

Sigh. Got it. All the desktop publishing computer jocky that created
the data sheet could have done was to put a big "X" in place of the
"NONE", or possibly left the box blank, and there would not be any
confusion. Extra credit if they had added a column with the number of
positions. In any case, it's not very clear as the designation SPDT
could be 2 or 3 positions. Usually, it's marked SPDT center off, from
which the designer is expected to deduce that this is a 3 position
switch. Argh.

I find it fairly obvious.
What is the connections in the center position?
Answer: "It is OFF" - A 3-position switch, center position OFF
Answer: "It is NONE" - A 2-position switch, there is NO center position

An X would be less obvious.
Answer: "It is X" - I don't know / Crossed over / ????

At least you will only make this mistake once ;-)

Not to insult you, but are you self-taught, or have you formal education
in electronics, or some sort of apprenticeship? You should have learned
the meaning of switch-nomenclature there.

Leif



We all learnt the meaning of switch nomenclature at college, and that wasn't
it ...

Arfa