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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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zener failure question
How often does a zener have a failure mode where it acts like a good
(not leaky) much lower voltage zener? I usually see leaky or shorted ones rather than substantial drift... Fault was 185v line in 'scope low at 170v and slight ripple, failure was 24v zener which was acting like a good 3.3v zener. 'Scope was still working, just had slightly reduced intensity and thought it better to check voltages before twiddling the sub-intensity pot Lee |
#2
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zener failure question
Lee wrote:
How often does a zener have a failure mode where it acts like a good (not leaky) much lower voltage zener? I usually see leaky or shorted ones rather than substantial drift... Fault was 185v line in 'scope low at 170v and slight ripple, failure was 24v zener which was acting like a good 3.3v zener. 'Scope was still working, just had slightly reduced intensity and thought it better to check voltages before twiddling the sub-intensity pot Lee That is common for a zener.. excessive heat usually does that. From what I understand the zener is fabbed a little differently so not to destroy itself when doing the break down. Normal diodes tend to not like being used as zeners for any length of time. I guess it could be possible you may had a zener that had some impurities in the process that could of allowed it to break down like non-zener semi's or, it just got wacked some how. If this reference is supplying some out side device as a source of energy or ref on the scope? It's possible it got whacked. Also, if only supplies internal references, check to make sure the connecting circuit is still using it. If not, the zener could be clamping too much and operating hot.. Normally the evidence is showed with a over heated board that it's attached to. Jamie |
#3
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zener failure question
On 01/06/2013 18:20, Jamie wrote:
Also, if only supplies internal references, check to make sure the connecting circuit is still using it. If not, the zener could be clamping too much and operating hot.. Normally the evidence is showed with a over heated board that it's attached to. Thanks. I'm not sure I understand the reasons it's used in this application either, it's a 5W part and it seems to be used to create a 185v supply from a 245v tap (+ bridge obviously) on the mains transformer. This 185v supply is then regulated by a comparator/series pass transistor to 160v. The weird thing is that even with the zener failed, the 160v supply was still just about right, (it was at 163v). Replacing the zener has put the 185v rail back to the proper value and the 160v rail is now solid as well, minus the ripple. The zener was mounted off-board with fibreglass sleeves on its leads so they expected it to get hot Hasn't burnt the board though. Replacement runs hot as well, but not uncomfortably so. Lee |
#4
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zener failure question
Ah, penny drops. I had to model the circuit in Spice before I understood
it It's used to create a stable 160v for the positive end of the resistor divider at the input to the comparator, the negative end of the chain is connected to a separately regulated -12v (from a different transformer tapped supply) and the comparator (other input is ground) and series pass transistor then regulates the 245v supply from the bridge to 185v. Which in turn is dropped by the zener to 160v If the zener is shorted then the 160v supply stays at 160v, but with lots of ripple. The 185v supply isn't used for anything else other than as a marked test point and to supply the 160v rail via the zener. That's the thing that confused me originally Why have a series pass transistor but then drop that supply through a zener? I guess there is a good reason to do it this way, but it confuzzled me Lee |
#5
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zener failure question
Lee wrote:
On 01/06/2013 18:20, Jamie wrote: Also, if only supplies internal references, check to make sure the connecting circuit is still using it. If not, the zener could be clamping too much and operating hot.. Normally the evidence is showed with a over heated board that it's attached to. Thanks. I'm not sure I understand the reasons it's used in this application either, it's a 5W part and it seems to be used to create a 185v supply from a 245v tap (+ bridge obviously) on the mains transformer. This 185v supply is then regulated by a comparator/series pass transistor to 160v. The weird thing is that even with the zener failed, the 160v supply was still just about right, (it was at 163v). Replacing the zener has put the 185v rail back to the proper value and the 160v rail is now solid as well, minus the ripple. The zener was mounted off-board with fibreglass sleeves on its leads so they expected it to get hot Hasn't burnt the board though. Replacement runs hot as well, but not uncomfortably so. Lee sounds like a poor design.. maybe it should have a heat sink hanging off it. Jamie |
#6
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zener failure question
Lee wrote:
Ah, penny drops. I had to model the circuit in Spice before I understood it It's used to create a stable 160v for the positive end of the resistor divider at the input to the comparator, the negative end of the chain is connected to a separately regulated -12v (from a different transformer tapped supply) and the comparator (other input is ground) and series pass transistor then regulates the 245v supply from the bridge to 185v. Which in turn is dropped by the zener to 160v If the zener is shorted then the 160v supply stays at 160v, but with lots of ripple. The 185v supply isn't used for anything else other than as a marked test point and to supply the 160v rail via the zener. That's the thing that confused me originally Why have a series pass transistor but then drop that supply through a zener? I guess there is a good reason to do it this way, but it confuzzled me Lee Possibly two things.. 1. The series transistor is under switch control so that it could shut off the source or, it could be a current limited. 2. The series transistor could be stepping down the voltage so that zener shunt does not exert so much current.. Just enough to maybe smooth out the ripple.. Jamie |
#7
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zener failure question
"Lee" wrote in message ... Ah, penny drops. I had to model the circuit in Spice before I understood it It's used to create a stable 160v for the positive end of the resistor divider at the input to the comparator, the negative end of the chain is connected to a separately regulated -12v (from a different transformer tapped supply) and the comparator (other input is ground) and series pass transistor then regulates the 245v supply from the bridge to 185v. Which in turn is dropped by the zener to 160v If the zener is shorted then the 160v supply stays at 160v, but with lots of ripple. The 185v supply isn't used for anything else other than as a marked test point and to supply the 160v rail via the zener. That's the thing that confused me originally Why have a series pass transistor but then drop that supply through a zener? I guess there is a good reason to do it this way, but it confuzzled me Lee It's not an 'active smoothing' (sometimes also known as electronic smoothing) circuit is it by any chance ? I came across this principle some years ago in some piece of test equipment that I owned. Come to think of it, it might even have been in the Marconi lab AF generator that I still have. As I recall, it used a tetrode or pentode valve as the series pass element in this system. Basically, the circuit emulates a large smoothing cap by feeding ripple back in reverse phase to the control element. If this was not working correctly in your circuit due to the faulty zener, it might account for why the rail was still basically of the correct voltage, but with excess ripple ? Arfa |
#8
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zener failure question
On 02/06/2013 02:24, Arfa Daily wrote:
It's not an 'active smoothing' (sometimes also known as electronic smoothing) circuit is it by any chance ? I came across this principle some years ago in some piece of test equipment that I owned. Come to think of it, it might even have been in the Marconi lab AF generator that I still have. As I recall, it used a tetrode or pentode valve as the series pass element in this system. Basically, the circuit emulates a large smoothing cap by feeding ripple back in reverse phase to the control element. If this was not working correctly in your circuit due to the faulty zener, it might account for why the rail was still basically of the correct voltage, but with excess ripple ? Arfa Interesting idea, does sound like they could be doing that The comparator is a TL072 and the reference voltage is fed into the inverting input... With the faulty zener there was a varying 2-3v of 100hz positive-going ripple on the 160v line, looked like a failed smoothing cap. With the replacement it's a few millivolts. Lee |
#9
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zener failure question
On Jun 2, 3:03*am, Lee wrote:
On 02/06/2013 02:24, Arfa Daily wrote: It's not an 'active smoothing' (sometimes also known as electronic smoothing) circuit is it by any chance ? I came across this principle some years ago in some piece of test equipment that I owned. Come to think of it, it might even have been in the Marconi lab AF generator that I still have. As I recall, it used a tetrode or pentode valve as the series pass element in this system. Basically, the circuit emulates a large smoothing cap by feeding ripple back in reverse phase to the control element. If this was not working correctly in your circuit due to the faulty zener, it might account for why the rail was still basically of the correct voltage, but with excess ripple ? Arfa Interesting idea, does sound like they could be doing that The comparator is a TL072 and the reference voltage is fed into the inverting input... With the faulty zener there was a varying 2-3v of 100hz positive-going ripple on the 160v line, looked like a failed smoothing cap. With the replacement it's a few millivolts. Lee- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would surely try to put someting on the replacement zener to cool it, a fin, or maybe clamp the body to a piece of electricallly isolated metal. Even mounting the zener with as short leads as possible if connected to something on a pwb that would act as a heat sink, or maybe even solder some copper tape wings onto the zener leads, anything to help it run cooler. |
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