How to store to retain it for possible future use?

deliberately discharged and then unattended outside of pc
charged up in pc and then unattended outside of pc
charged via otherwise unused pc once a month? 6 monthly ? yearly ? and then
removed from pc
stored in a fridge? or just a cool dry place or a warm place

N_Cook wrote:
How to store to retain it for possible future use?

deliberately discharged and then unattended outside of pc
Will destroy it.

charged up in pc and then unattended outside of pc

Yes.

If you have an antistatic bag and a moisture abosrber, put them in it and
seal it. Keep cool, but do not freeze (as the UNIX fortune program used to say).

In case any one wonders, the cells themselves are not affected by static,
but the electronics inside the battery pack are.

If you are the cautious type, place the anti static bag inside a sealed
zip lock bag. If the cells leak, the electrolyte is extremely corrosive.

I have no proof, just a feeling, but I would not place them in bag and seal
it using a vacuum food sealing system. The cells are designed to not leak
at seal level air pressure, not a vacuum.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

Anti-static bags are conductive. Not like metal, but they conduct. Make sure
the battery's contacts are covered.

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 07:12:28 -0700 "William Sommerwerck"
wrote in Message id:
:

Anti-static bags are conductive. Not like metal, but they conduct.

Especially the cheap ones that motherboards and such come in with the
crosshatch patterns on the outside of the bag. Never put a motherboard
down on the outside of one or you can discharge the CMOS battery if left
long enough.

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:29:37 +0100, "N_Cook" wrote:

How to store to retain it for possible future use?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

"At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full
most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose
approximately 20% capacity per year...."

deliberately discharged and then unattended outside of pc

That will blow up the battery.

charged up in pc and then unattended outside of pc

Full charge will eventually self-deteriorate the battery.

charged via otherwise unused pc once a month? 6 monthly ? yearly ? and then
removed from pc

Nope. Lifetime is measured in charge cycles. That would just
decriment the number of charge cycles available.

stored in a fridge? or just a cool dry place or a warm place

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:34:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:29:37 +0100, "N_Cook" wrote:

How to store to retain it for possible future use?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

"At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full
most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose
approximately 20% capacity per year...."

that's seriously dated and extremely inaccurate. It doesn't explain
the packs that are ten years older (or more) and still can demonstrate
2/3rds of original capacity. Unfortunately some of these references
seem to never track reality.

deliberately discharged and then unattended outside of pc

That will blow up the battery.

That's also an extreme view, assuming discharge to the "normal"
end-point and *not* to zero volts per cell (which is geberally
precluded by the pack protection module anyway).

Have you ever witnessed that occur? The normal decomposition of cells
allowed to deteriorate from EOD is non-spectacular, just a quiet
process without the leakage that say an alkaline primary would
exhibit.

charged up in pc and then unattended outside of pc

Full charge will eventually self-deteriorate the battery.

The things that determine the rate of loss_of_usable_capacity are
temperature and state-of-charge. Also simple choices (not generally
available to the user of consumer appliances) play a big part in cycle
life. Lowering the end-of-charge voltage from 4.20 to 4.10 returns a
trebling of cycle life in return for a small reduction in usable
capacity.

charged via otherwise unused pc once a month? 6 monthly ? yearly ? and then
removed from pc

Nope. Lifetime is measured in charge cycles. That would just
decriment the number of charge cycles available.

It isn't that simple.

stored in a fridge? or just a cool dry place or a warm place

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:15:31 +0800, who where wrote:

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:34:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:29:37 +0100, "N_Cook" wrote:

How to store to retain it for possible future use?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

"At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full
most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose
approximately 20% capacity per year...."

that's seriously dated and extremely inaccurate. It doesn't explain
the packs that are ten years older (or more) and still can demonstrate
2/3rds of original capacity. Unfortunately some of these references
seem to never track reality.

How recent a web page would you consider to be adequately up to date?

More pages that say basically the same thing:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
http://powerelectronics.com/portable_power_management/battery_charger_ics/proper_care_extends-li-ion-battery-0425/

http://www.apple.com/batteries/
If you use your iPod, iPhone, or notebook in temperatures higher
than 95° F (or 35° C), you may permanently damage your battery’s
capacity. That is, your battery won’t power your device as long on
any given charge. You may damage it even more if you charge the
device in these temperatures. Even storing a battery in a hot
environment can damage it irreversibly.

http://www.centralhobbies.com/instructional/lithium.html
3. Don't charge up the battery pack just to store it away. When
storing for long periods of time, keep the battery at a 40% charge
level.

More if you want them.... Google for "Li-Ion battery care".

deliberately discharged and then unattended outside of pc

That will blow up the battery.

That's also an extreme view, assuming discharge to the "normal"
end-point and *not* to zero volts per cell (which is geberally
precluded by the pack protection module anyway).

Agreed. However, the OP didn't specify how he plans to discharge the
battery. I had visions of discharging the battery pack outside of the
laptop (or whatever).

Have you ever witnessed that occur? The normal decomposition of cells
allowed to deteriorate from EOD is non-spectacular, just a quiet
process without the leakage that say an alkaline primary would
exhibit.

Witnessed what? Having a Li-Ion battery die from excessive discharge?
Yep, but with LiPo batteries in model airplanes. They don't have the
protection found in most laptops and cell phones. The motor is fully
able to fly the battery into the ground. Two to perhaps five such
cycles is all that's required to kill the battery.

charged up in pc and then unattended outside of pc

Full charge will eventually self-deteriorate the battery.

The things that determine the rate of loss_of_usable_capacity are
temperature and state-of-charge. Also simple choices (not generally
available to the user of consumer appliances) play a big part in cycle
life. Lowering the end-of-charge voltage from 4.20 to 4.10 returns a
trebling of cycle life in return for a small reduction in usable
capacity.

I had the opportunity to verify part of that on a small scale. Four
identical LiPo batteries.
1. 100% charge refreshed every two weeks at room temperature.
2. 100% charge refreshed every two weeks in my fridge.
3. 50% charge refreshed every two weeks at room temperature.
4. 50% charge refreshed every two weeks in my fridge.
Unfortunately, 50% charge was largely a guess and my not have been
accurate. The 2 week interval was also not exact. None of the
batteries were discharged with any load other than self-discharge.

At the end of 6 months, I used a West Mtn Radio battery analyzer to
see what was left.
http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA.htm
I returned all the batteries to room temperature, let them stabilize
for a day, and charged them all to 100%. I then tested them and
generated discharge graphs at rated Amp-Hr capacity.
1. 60% of rated capacity
2. 85% of rated capacity
3. 98% of rated capacity
4. 98% of rated capacity.
The above numbers are from my fading memory and may not be exact. I
think I can post the corresponding graphs, if I can find the data. The
laptop I was using for testing crashed and I'm not sure if I had
backed up the data.

charged via otherwise unused pc once a month? 6 monthly ? yearly ? and then
removed from pc

Nope. Lifetime is measured in charge cycles. That would just
decriment the number of charge cycles available.

It isn't that simple.

True. It never is that simple.

stored in a fridge? or just a cool dry place or a warm place

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.

So, since you indicate that everything I posted is wrong, how should
one store a Li-Ion battery?

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:22:26 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:15:31 +0800, who where wrote:

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:34:43 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:29:37 +0100, "N_Cook" wrote:

How to store to retain it for possible future use?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

"At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full
most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose
approximately 20% capacity per year...."

that's seriously dated and extremely inaccurate. It doesn't explain
the packs that are ten years older (or more) and still can demonstrate
2/3rds of original capacity. Unfortunately some of these references
seem to never track reality.

How recent a web page would you consider to be adequately up to date?

More pages that say basically the same thing:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
http://powerelectronics.com/portable_power_management/battery_charger_ics/proper_care_extends-li-ion-battery-0425/

http://www.apple.com/batteries/
If you use your iPod, iPhone, or notebook in temperatures higher
than 95° F (or 35° C), you may permanently damage your battery’s
capacity. That is, your battery won’t power your device as long on
any given charge. You may damage it even more if you charge the
device in these temperatures. Even storing a battery in a hot
environment can damage it irreversibly.

http://www.centralhobbies.com/instructional/lithium.html
3. Don't charge up the battery pack just to store it away. When
storing for long periods of time, keep the battery at a 40% charge
level.

More if you want them.... Google for "Li-Ion battery care".

You've rolled a number of points into one. I was referring
speciically to their 20% p.a. loss of capacity claim, which is a
crock.

deliberately discharged and then unattended outside of pc

That will blow up the battery.

That's also an extreme view, assuming discharge to the "normal"
end-point and *not* to zero volts per cell (which is geberally
precluded by the pack protection module anyway).

Agreed. However, the OP didn't specify how he plans to discharge the
battery. I had visions of discharging the battery pack outside of the
laptop (or whatever).

If it is a laptop pack recent enough to care about, it will contain a
pack protection module which will preclude discharge beyond a LVCO
point, typically 3.0v, and will also preclude excessive discharge
current. Nothing unsafe about a DYI discharge on that pack.

If it is a single cell from a cellphone or similar, different story.
these tend to have minimal inbuilt protection (if any) and rely
heavily on the host device for the customary protective functions.

Have you ever witnessed that occur? The normal decomposition of cells
allowed to deteriorate from EOD is non-spectacular, just a quiet
process without the leakage that say an alkaline primary would
exhibit.

Witnessed what? Having a Li-Ion battery die from excessive discharge?
Yep, but with LiPo batteries in model airplanes. They don't have the
protection found in most laptops and cell phones. The motor is fully
able to fly the battery into the ground. Two to perhaps five such
cycles is all that's required to kill the battery.

No protection means all bets are off.

charged up in pc and then unattended outside of pc

Full charge will eventually self-deteriorate the battery.

The things that determine the rate of loss_of_usable_capacity are
temperature and state-of-charge. Also simple choices (not generally
available to the user of consumer appliances) play a big part in cycle
life. Lowering the end-of-charge voltage from 4.20 to 4.10 returns a
trebling of cycle life in return for a small reduction in usable
capacity.

I had the opportunity to verify part of that on a small scale. Four
identical LiPo batteries.
1. 100% charge refreshed every two weeks at room temperature.
2. 100% charge refreshed every two weeks in my fridge.
3. 50% charge refreshed every two weeks at room temperature.
4. 50% charge refreshed every two weeks in my fridge.
Unfortunately, 50% charge was largely a guess and my not have been
accurate. The 2 week interval was also not exact. None of the
batteries were discharged with any load other than self-discharge.

At the end of 6 months, I used a West Mtn Radio battery analyzer to
see what was left.
http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA.htm
I returned all the batteries to room temperature, let them stabilize
for a day, and charged them all to 100%. I then tested them and
generated discharge graphs at rated Amp-Hr capacity.
1. 60% of rated capacity
2. 85% of rated capacity
3. 98% of rated capacity
4. 98% of rated capacity.
The above numbers are from my fading memory and may not be exact. I
think I can post the corresponding graphs, if I can find the data. The
laptop I was using for testing crashed and I'm not sure if I had
backed up the data.

No need. I've seen numbers on these before, and Evgenij Barsukov has
posted comment on this previously in sci.chem.electrochem.battery.

charged via otherwise unused pc once a month? 6 monthly ? yearly ? and then
removed from pc

Nope. Lifetime is measured in charge cycles. That would just
decriment the number of charge cycles available.

It isn't that simple.

True. It never is that simple.

stored in a fridge? or just a cool dry place or a warm place

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.

So, since you indicate that everything I posted is wrong, how should
one store a Li-Ion battery?

I never suggested that everything you posted is wrong, far from it.
But several points were amiss and they attracted specific comment.

I have seen numerous manufacturer-derived articles recommending 50-60%
SOC and cool/cold but not freezing as the optimum storage condition
for maximised life. I see nothing at all wrong with this approach
*if* maximum life is the sole objective. If OTOH the user wants to be
able to pull the cell/battery out of storage and into service without
an intervening warm-up or recharge, maybe a higher SOC is warranted.
Like many things relating to Li-XX cells, it is a tradeoff.

The extra life obtained by reducing the EOC voltage is well documented
and well worth it in laptop applications BUT the end user doesn't get
to choose. The manufacturer is out to deliver (well, promise) the
maximum discharge runtime he can, and he doesn't give a rats how long
the pack lasts in service.

I have a pack from an olde Acernote Lite 370 series dated 9637, so it
is just over 13 years old. It is stored with, but not *in*, the
machine. About once every year or so I pull that out and run it until
the machine shuts down, then recharge it to 100% (sic). It delivers
about 1.3 hours, compared to 2.5+ when new. That is stored at 100%
and room temperature (32S/116E).

I also have several test packs of 18650 cells left over from a project
about five years ago when I designed a commercial Li-XX charger. They
were shelved at 4.20v and currently all are above 3.9v. I haven't
bothered to measure their storage capacity because I have no reason,
but I can assure you that they wouldn't show that sort of cell voltage
if they had lost 20% of original capacity per year.

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 14:03:46 +0800, who where wrote:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

You've rolled a number of points into one. I was referring
speciically to their 20% p.a. loss of capacity claim, which is a
crock.

Guilty as charged and you're correct, but not for commodity Li-Ion
laptop batteries as the OP apparently is using. According to:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

Temp 40% storage charge 100% storage charge
0C 96% after 1 yr 94% after 1 yr
25C 96% after 1 yr 80% after 1 yr
40C 85% after 1 yr 65% after 1 yr
60C 75% after 1 yr 60% after 3 months

Kinda looks like about 20%/yr loss with 100% charge at room temp. My
abbreviated test showed a 40% loss with 100% charge at room temp in 6
months. I'll agree with the Wikipedia numbers until someone specified
a specific chemistry and testing method (that I can perform with my
West Mtn Radio CBA II tester).

However, you are correct that there are new and improved chemistries
that do not have anywhere near the self discharge and
self-deterioration rate of commodity laptop batteries. Eagle Picher
makes Lithium-CFX batteries, that claim a self discharge rate of less
than 1%/year at room temperature.
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6672104.html
These batteries are made to operate at body temperature (37C) and must
therefore not suffer from self-deterioration at elevated storage
temperatures.

If it is a laptop pack recent enough to care about, it will contain a
pack protection module which will preclude discharge beyond a LVCO
point, typically 3.0v, and will also preclude excessive discharge
current. Nothing unsafe about a DYI discharge on that pack.

True. The battery pack has enough electronics inside to protect
itself from excessive discharge. Under Windoze, one can set an alarm
and a shutdown point based on battery capacity. The default threshold
is about 10%. I've never tested this to determine if it works.
Presumably, if you don't want to run the battery down to below perhaps
25% capacity, setting a shutdown threshold below this point is wasted
effort. Similarly, if there's a protection threshold inside the
battery pack, it's certainly not labeled or easily determined.

If it is a single cell from a cellphone or similar, different story.
these tend to have minimal inbuilt protection (if any) and rely
heavily on the host device for the customary protective functions.

Yep. Model airplanes and helicopters are even worse. All the
protection electronics is in the external battery charger. It
protects against fatal overcharge, but does nothing for excessive
discharge.

No protection means all bets are off.

Yep.

No need. I've seen numbers on these before, and Evgenij Barsukov has
posted comment on this previously in sci.chem.electrochem.battery.

(...)

I never suggested that everything you posted is wrong, far from it.
But several points were amiss and they attracted specific comment.

No problem. However, I'll stand on the Wikipedia 20%/year loss at
100% charge at room temperature for commodity laptop batteries. My
results were even worse. I'll concede that there are new chemistries
that offer substantial improvements in self-discharge and
self-deterioration, but I haven't seen any in laptops.

I have seen numerous manufacturer-derived articles recommending 50-60%
SOC and cool/cold but not freezing as the optimum storage condition
for maximised life.

Same here. That's also my recommended storage condition.

I see nothing at all wrong with this approach
*if* maximum life is the sole objective. If OTOH the user wants to be
able to pull the cell/battery out of storage and into service without
an intervening warm-up or recharge, maybe a higher SOC is warranted.
Like many things relating to Li-XX cells, it is a tradeoff.

Well, of course. I mentioned (twice) that one should let the battery
warm to room temperature before using. I don't know what will happen
if the battery is either charged or discharge at near freezing
temperatures, but it probably will not do anything useful.

The extra life obtained by reducing the EOC voltage is well documented
and well worth it in laptop applications BUT the end user doesn't get
to choose. The manufacturer is out to deliver (well, promise) the
maximum discharge runtime he can, and he doesn't give a rats how long
the pack lasts in service.

The user can set the Windoze low battery warning to trip at a much
higher level than the ridiculously low default value of 10%. That
will prevent excessive discharge.

I have a pack from an olde Acernote Lite 370 series dated 9637, so it
is just over 13 years old. It is stored with, but not *in*, the
machine. About once every year or so I pull that out and run it until
the machine shuts down, then recharge it to 100% (sic). It delivers
about 1.3 hours, compared to 2.5+ when new. That is stored at 100%
and room temperature (32S/116E).

The Acernote Light 370 was delivered with NiMH batteries, but later
LiIon batteries were made available.

Why do you discharge the battery before charging? As I understand it,
LiIon doesn't have a memory problem.

I also have several test packs of 18650 cells left over from a project
about five years ago when I designed a commercial Li-XX charger. They
were shelved at 4.20v and currently all are above 3.9v. I haven't
bothered to measure their storage capacity because I have no reason,
but I can assure you that they wouldn't show that sort of cell voltage
if they had lost 20% of original capacity per year.

Agreed. 3.92v is the highest voltage that a LiIon-Cobalt cells will
deliver. You did something right because my 6 month experiment showed
deterioration in both room temperature batteries.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article , Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

SNIP

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.


Jeff,

"coldest place you can find" versus "don't freeze".

Which is it?

--- Joe

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:36:03 -0700, ess (Joe) wrote:

In article , Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.

"coldest place you can find" versus "don't freeze".
Which is it?

The coldest place you can find that doesn't freeze the battery. I
would think you could decode that from what I wrote. Freezing is 0C
so anything between that and somewhat below room temperature is a good
target.

The fridge at 5 to 8C is about as cold as I would think necessary. Any
colder runs the risk of freezing the battery. If that's too
difficult, room temperature is fine. Just don't let the battery get
hot.

Before using the battery, let it warm up to room temperature.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:22:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:36:03 -0700, ess (Joe) wrote:

In article , Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.

"coldest place you can find" versus "don't freeze".
Which is it?

The coldest place you can find that doesn't freeze the battery. I
would think you could decode that from what I wrote. Freezing is 0C
so anything between that and somewhat below room temperature is a good
target.

only if the battery uses pure water as it's electrolyte.

On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 03:47:36 -0500, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:22:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:36:03 -0700, ess (Joe) wrote:

In article , Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Shelf_life
Store at about 50% charge in the coldest place you can find. Warm to
room temperatures before using.

Cool. Cold is better, but don't freeze. Optionally store in sealed
plastic bag to prevent condensation when removed from fridge.

"coldest place you can find" versus "don't freeze".
Which is it?

The coldest place you can find that doesn't freeze the battery. I
would think you could decode that from what I wrote. Freezing is 0C
so anything between that and somewhat below room temperature is a good
target.

only if the battery uses pure water as it's electrolyte.

Sigh... I guess I have to do the necessary Google searching.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Lithium-ion-battery%23External-links
Many authors suggest that freezing Li-ion batteries may be
detrimental. However, most Li-ion battery electrolytes freeze
at approximately -40 °C. Household freezers rarely reach below
-20°C. Published experiments demonstrate that freezing (even
below -40°C) is unharmful if the battery is fully warmed to room
temperature before use. More details are given in the book
"Characteristics and Behavior of 1M LiPF6 1EC:1DMC Electrolyte at
Low Temperatures" by L.M. Cristo, T. B. A****er, U.S. Army
Research, Fort Monmouth, NJ.

Seems that it's safe to put a Li-Ion battery in the freezer. However,
many web pages suggest the proper storage conditions are 0C to 20C at
40% charge. For example:
http://www.idxtek.com/pdf/tech_info/T-004.pdf (camera battery)

Incidentally, I just received ten RAZR cell phone batteries from a
vendor in China. All arrived charged to about 30-40%.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558