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Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Ulysses wrote:
I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera. It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is probably over 60 years old. Buy a Canon. All three of mine[0] are well past their warranty, & are still going strong. (Including the original batteries!) [0] An S30 digicam, an EOS-10D & an EOS-1Dmk2. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
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Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:00:02 +1000, Bob Larter wrote: Sylvia Else wrote: Steve Barker wrote: Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all? It's a motor and a heat element. Marketing. I saw a washing machine that was advertised as having "crystal control". Presumably, it timed its wash cycles to one part in 10^9. Jeez. I haven't run into that one in person, but it wouldn't surprise me. The current craze for insane amounts of megapixels in digicams with toy lenses is a very similar problem. Reminds me of DVM's with 3 1/2 digit readouts and 1% accuracy. The last digit is just noise. Exactly. And don't get me started on the low ohms ranges of those meters... -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
"Ulysses" wrote in message
... | | "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message | ... | On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George | wrote: | | Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that | price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best | to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands. | | Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a | board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale, | and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs | in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and | component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of | these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is | make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But | the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that | has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the | various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal | level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product. | | Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in | product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for | consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory | warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't | compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of | quality. Sounds like a plan. | | I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of | the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first | time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up | needing it. Buy it with a credit card that extends the mfgr's warranty by up to an additional year and forget the "extended warranty." |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:07:28 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote: wrote: On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:03:46 +1000, Bob Larter wrote: Sylvia Else wrote: Don Klipstein wrote: Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances - and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or power line time base is used. I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than adequate. It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly. Failure of mechanical timers on appliances is VERY common, and usually results in the appliance going to the landfill. Sure, but it was the cam/switches that would fail, not the motor. Oh, I've seen plenty with a motor that stopped. Regardless, mechanical timers are a glaring weak spot in appliances. Electronic controls, done properly, are far more reliable. In theory, sure. Yes, there are some that are done properly! I'm sure that there are, it's just that I haven't run into any. Take a look at a Fisher & Paykel. When they designed it, they started with a clean sheet of paper. They didn't just slap a few blinking lights on a conventional washing machine. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
"brassplyer" wrote in message
... I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too. For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the control circuitry be made more bulletproof? The majority are brainwashed to need a new one every 2 years without question. Any company that builds to last more than 2 years will be competing with itself and others and will fail because no one will pay twice as much for a 4 year old model. Sure it is wrong to generate so much waste, but you go out of business first, OK? |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
"brassplyer" wrote in message ... For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the control circuitry be made more bulletproof? Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of "planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably break. So, they design an electronics board with a finite lifespan, produce a finite number of spares at the time of the original production run, and when those spares are gone that machine is junk. Maybe that board is repairable, but the labor involved to fix it is huge. Maybe they've stuck a proprietary IC or 2 on there which fails so it CAN'T be fixed no way no how. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
On May 31, 1:07*pm, "Bill" wrote:
It can be tougher! If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash sensors. These things are built like a tank! Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a period of time. They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer! Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do. Sounds like the epitaph for GMC! We have neighbours who have persistently bought Chevrolet/GMC pickups an a couple of mid-size GMC cars during the last 30 years we have lived in same area. The Chevs. a) Don't last as long as our Nissans. b) Take more time/ cost for repairs. And we are not talking heavy commercial/contractor usage of the Chevrolet products, just back and forth on paved roads to work. In fact our smaller Nissan/Toyota pickups were used for commercial catering work, carrying heavy loads of dishes etc. on a weekly daily basis in all weathers. Since both our neighbours and ourselves have helped each other do many of the repairs we each have had an inside look at what has worn/needed repairs on both types of vehicles. But our more recent (Japanese) vehicles have been assembled/ manufactured in the USA and contain more 'Made in Mexico' or 'Made in Taiwan' parts and have not had the quality of of our earlier vehicles made entirely in say, Japan. Interesting how the Japanese manufacturing went from tin-pot junk in the 1930 to the high quality of today. A relative recently bought a nine year old Lexus; a beautiful car! Seems to prove that cost and profit and high short term bonuses for auto executives were not the best policy? And when it comes to home repairs/renovations etc. would one not expect domestic appliance to last at least as long/longer than a well used motor vehicle? However In one mid-eastern country we bought and used a full size US manufactured clothes dryer that was of excellent quality and capability, better than Italian and other European made products. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
"Dave" wrote in message news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83... "brassplyer" wrote in message ... For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the control circuitry be made more bulletproof? Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of "planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably break. So, That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble. Also no one wants to pay more for a good product. The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80. Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to repair them. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where
you could send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had some unskilled labor to open up the case, throw out the electronics and install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to customers was around $ 70 to $ 80. Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to repair them. 30 years (or so) ago, GE simply replaced defective electronics with a refurbished unit. The unit you sent in was placed in a pile, to be repaired at a later date. This probably worked well, if a technician worked on four or five identical units at the same time. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83... "brassplyer" wrote in message ... For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the control circuitry be made more bulletproof? Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of "planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably break. So, That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble. Also no one wants to pay more for a good product. The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80. Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to repair them. I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards. TDD |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Hi!
The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. William |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message - I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards. TDD If you are doing it for yourself and do not count your time that is fine. If you are paying someone to repair it, you are looking at around $ 50 or more per hour labor. It may take several hours to get everything set up, do the repairs and test out the finished results. I used to do some repairs and still do on equipment that does not have the smd or other components that take special equipment to work on. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi! The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. I have, several times. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Ralph Mowery wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message - I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards. TDD If you are doing it for yourself and do not count your time that is fine. If you are paying someone to repair it, you are looking at around $ 50 or more per hour labor. It may take several hours to get everything set up, do the repairs and test out the finished results. I used to do some repairs and still do on equipment that does not have the smd or other components that take special equipment to work on. I tell customers all the time, this may not be economical to repair unless you are very attached to it. Sometimes a special piece of equipment is worth $85.00 per hour to them. TDD |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Bob Larter wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: Hi! The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. I have, several times. Dozens of them. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: Hi! The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. I have, several times. Dozens of them. I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Hi!
I have, several times. * *Dozens of them. I probably should have qualified this a bit more. I wasn't saying "this never happens", only that it seems to be rare. And I have seen at least one where the display quit working, although the oven could be used anyway. So I didn't count that one. :-) I've also noticed that other parts of the oven are typically what go bad first...things like fans, stirrer motors, relays, the odd old tired fuse and sometimes the magnetron. William |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
On Jun 3, 9:08*am, Steve Barker wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: Bob Larter wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: Hi! The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela...er.jpg(494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. I have, several times. * *Dozens of them. I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. *AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. Exactly. I just tossed away a 23 year old Jenn Air microwave that had electronics and it was still working fine. I'm not convinced the premise that washers and dryers with electronics are inherently more prone to failure than other units is valid. I see most people in this group with actual problems that are in the area of switches, motors, water level sensors, solenoid water valves, etc. Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
On May 31, 11:58*am, "Ulysses" wrote:
"brassplyer" wrote in message ... I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too. For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the control circuitry be made more bulletproof? I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace. *The old one looked like it was basically just underbuilt. *The circuit paths were very narrow and all the components were the smallest values possible. * Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are digital, which work on signals of micro amps. The only areas carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay, solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size trace. The replacement board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus was a better design as far as function goes. I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the appliance. *Instead they get a bad reputation. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
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Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds. Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a reasonable price in comparsison to a new board. Ron |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
In article , Ron wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote: I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds. Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a reasonable price in comparsison to a new board. Ron I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave. greg |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
GregS wrote:
In article , Ron wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds. Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a reasonable price in comparsison to a new board. Ron I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave. Well, mechanical timers fail also, usually the coil fails in 'Crouzet type' motor driven ones. or the microswitches go intermittent. They can often be ressurected. Ron(UK) |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Steve Barker wrote: I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks better. i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about $4. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
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Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Bob Larter wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: Hi! The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. I have, several times. Dozens of them. I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new one last that long? -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Steve Barker wrote: I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks better. i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about $4. I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity. It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the cheap turntable alternative. Michael |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
msg wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Steve Barker wrote: I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks better. i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about $4. I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity. It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the cheap turntable alternative. What do you expect from China? Quality, good design, or a low price? You can't have all three. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Mark Lloyd wrote: On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Bob Larter wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: Hi! The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. I have, several times. Dozens of them. I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new one last that long? You would be lucky if it lasted 23 weeks. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
In article t,
msg wrote: I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity. It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the cheap turntable alternative. Michael Ah, interesting. How can I tell whether or not I have an RF stirrer? |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
How can I tell whether or not I have an RF stirrer?
Look at the top of the oven cavity. If you see a "fan" in the hole, that's the stirrer. Some ovens have the output on the bottom, but that's uncommon, as far as I know. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Hi!
i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get peeling paint, and rust inside. My mother bought the world's cheapest GE microwave and it lasted for a few months past the warranty before dying in an interesting way. The magnetron was the only thing that would start. Light, turntable and fan remained dark. This is a good way to cook more than the food in the oven. I had a look and found a relay had desoldered itself from the board. Put it back, oven springs back to life and things are good. For about a month or two it worked. The relay was having none of that and decided that if it would not get out of work by leaving the board, it would turn to coal inside instead. I was astounded that the GE oven had a service literature packet inside it. Not a really good one, but enough to figure it out without excessive exploration. I got mad and drug a 60+ pound Litton oven out of storage only to find that it worked *perfectly*. 30 years old and it works great. Used that for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took the dead oven back and let me pick another. I chose a Panasonic Inverter based oven as a replacement. (My mother did not like the appearance of the Litton monster. Never mind that *she* bought it.) Despite having heard the odd bad thing here on the group, I know people who have had these for many years. And it is a *great* oven. William |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
The GE microwave that came with my condo has been running daily (though not
heavily) for at least 10 years, with no problems. It makes no sense to buy something cheap, then complain when it fails. It's not true that "you get what you pay for" (expensive items can be unreliable, cheap items good values), but if people stopped buying cheap merchandise, companies would likely stop manufacturing it. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Steve Barker wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: Bob Larter wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: Hi! The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls. Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way: http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691, 20KB). I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller, it looks to be well made. How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead control panel. I have, several times. Dozens of them. I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get out another $69 and buy a new one. Safety interlock switches & catches go bad all the time. My own high-end National switch-mode uwave oven snapped a door catch while it was still under warranty, but it was just before xmas, so I repaired it myself. (Diassembled the door, glued the broken catch back together, cut up a steel plate the same shape as the catch as a strengthener, & glued it to the catch. It's been working perfectly ever since.) The uwave at my office stops cooking every now & then. It fires back up again if you push on the handle, so one of the uswitches is obviously a little out of position. I haven't bothered fixing that one. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took the dead oven back and let me pick another. Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for my loss. Sylvia. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
William Sommerwerck wrote:
The GE microwave that came with my condo has been running daily (though not heavily) for at least 10 years, with no problems. It makes no sense to buy something cheap, then complain when it fails. It's not true that "you get what you pay for" (expensive items can be unreliable, cheap items good values), but if people stopped buying cheap merchandise, companies would likely stop manufacturing it. Or just charge more for it so that it was no longer perceived as cheap. Sylvia. |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote: Used that for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took the dead oven back and let me pick another. Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for my loss. Sylvia. Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is. In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop.... |
Why can't electronics on new washers & dryers be tougher?
Sjouke Burry wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote: William R. Walsh wrote: Used that for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took the dead oven back and let me pick another. Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for my loss. Sylvia. Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is. In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop.... Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked for the replacement part would make the repair uneconomic. But William said that obtaining the part was impossible. I took that to mean that GE indicated they were unable to supply one, not that they were asking too much for it. Sylvia. |
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