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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
Today I ordered electrolytic caps. It was frustrating. I had planned to get
the best low-ESR replacements for all the caps in some switching power supplies. I discovered how limited any one manufacturer's low-ESR catalog is. Many of what I needed (none of which seem to me to be esoteric values) were not available. A couple of times I had to leave a particular manufacturer's catalog altogether to find a value. Which brings me to my question. I was trying to get all Panasonic FM-series (hi-temp, low-ESR) caps. I've heard good things about Panasonic's caps, but being forced to another brand I has no idea of comparable quality. (This, at Digi-Key and Mouser.) Also, How important is the type of electrolyte? I've read that low-ESR caps are frequently made with water-based electrolyte whereas non-water-based formulae cannot give low ESR value. The qualities of caps (ie, hi-ripple, hi-temp, low-ESR, etc.) are frequently discussed on electronics forum, but I haven't seen the different manufacturers compared. How do the quality of caps compare by Nichicon Panasonic Vishay / Sprague Mallory Rubycon United Chemi-Con Cornell Dublier Xicon Feel free to add to the list, praise, trash, and/or list in order of your preference. Extra credit for essays on why you like / hate / prefer a brand or series of caps. Thanks, -- DaveC This is an invalid return address Please reply in the news group |
#2
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
DaveC wrote: Today I ordered electrolytic caps. It was frustrating. I had planned to get the best low-ESR replacements for all the caps in some switching power supplies. I discovered how limited any one manufacturer's low-ESR catalog is. Many of what I needed (none of which seem to me to be esoteric values) were not available. A couple of times I had to leave a particular manufacturer's catalog altogether to find a value. Which brings me to my question. I was trying to get all Panasonic FM-series (hi-temp, low-ESR) caps. I've heard good things about Panasonic's caps, but being forced to another brand I has no idea of comparable quality. (This, at Digi-Key and Mouser.) Also, How important is the type of electrolyte? I've read that low-ESR caps are frequently made with water-based electrolyte whereas non-water-based formulae cannot give low ESR value. The qualities of caps (ie, hi-ripple, hi-temp, low-ESR, etc.) are frequently discussed on electronics forum, but I haven't seen the different manufacturers compared. How do the quality of caps compare by Nichicon Panasonic Vishay / Sprague Mallory Rubycon United Chemi-Con Cornell Dublier Xicon Feel free to add to the list, praise, trash, and/or list in order of your preference. Extra credit for essays on why you like / hate / prefer a brand or series of caps. Toss a coin ? I'd tend to trust Panasonic btw. They tend to have good specs but even they have various options. When purchasing for a new project, they are my first choice for prototyping. At the economy level I'd go for Samwha ( had excellent results ). Graham |
#3
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
On May 7, 9:53*am, DaveC wrote:
Today I ordered electrolytic caps. It was frustrating. I had planned to get the best low-ESR replacements for all the caps in some switching power supplies. I discovered how limited any one manufacturer's low-ESR catalog is. Many of what I needed (none of which seem to me to be esoteric values) were not available. A couple of times I had to leave a particular manufacturer's catalog altogether to find a value. "low ESR" is not good enough for a purchasing spec. By the standards of just a few decades ago, all of today's electrolytics are low ESR. But whether anything meets your requirement is driven by the requirement, not bullet points in the capacitor maker's glossies. It's easy to find electrolytics of same voltage and capacitance which have ESR specs different by a factor of 10 or more. It shouldn't be too surprising that package and size have a lot to do with ESR. If your requirements are not met by any commercially available capacitors, you might think about making your design more realistic :-). Digikey etc. let you sort by ESR. It is also possible to choose capacitors which are too low in ESR and lead to instability with low-dropout regulators or other circuits. Tim. |
#4
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What cap mfr. to use?
Eeyore wrote in
: I'd tend to trust Panasonic btw. Me too. I used them to replace the low ESR caps on an ITX mainboard that runs in fairly hot and enclosed conditions. The board failed previously because caps with dodgy electrolyte were used, it leaked, dried, causing poor power conditioning and early video failure. The problem has not reappeared with the Panasonic FM electrolytics I used. |
#5
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
Panasonic and Nichicon make about 20 different grades and "types" of
electrolytics. Does one just look for high operating temp and low ESR, or are there other factors (or combinations thereof) to consider? |
#6
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Thu, 7 May 2009 09:42:16 -0700 (PDT), Tim Shoppa
wrote: On May 7, 9:53*am, DaveC wrote: Today I ordered electrolytic caps. It was frustrating. I had planned to get the best low-ESR replacements for all the caps in some switching power supplies. I discovered how limited any one manufacturer's low-ESR catalog is. Many of what I needed (none of which seem to me to be esoteric values) were not available. A couple of times I had to leave a particular manufacturer's catalog altogether to find a value. "low ESR" is not good enough for a purchasing spec. By the standards of just a few decades ago, all of today's electrolytics are low ESR. But whether anything meets your requirement is driven by the requirement, not bullet points in the capacitor maker's glossies. It's easy to find electrolytics of same voltage and capacitance which have ESR specs different by a factor of 10 or more. It shouldn't be too surprising that package and size have a lot to do with ESR. If your requirements are not met by any commercially available capacitors, you might think about making your design more realistic :-). Digikey etc. let you sort by ESR. It is also possible to choose capacitors which are too low in ESR and lead to instability with low-dropout regulators or other circuits. Tim. And a lot of, maybe most, switchers are stabilized by the filter cap esr. John |
#7
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
Tim Shoppa wrote: Digikey etc. let you sort by ESR. Manufacturer's data sheets are more comprehensive. And don't forget ripple current. Graham |
#8
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
William Sommerwerck wrote: Panasonic and Nichicon make about 20 different grades and "types" of electrolytics. Does one just look for high operating temp and low ESR, or are there other factors (or combinations thereof) to consider? If you get their full catalogues, there should be a selection table. Graham |
#9
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
In article .net,
DaveC wrote: Today I ordered electrolytic caps. It was frustrating. I had planned to get the best low-ESR replacements for all the caps in some switching power supplies. I discovered how limited any one manufacturer's low-ESR catalog is. Many of what I needed (none of which seem to me to be esoteric values) were not available. A couple of times I had to leave a particular manufacturer's catalog altogether to find a value. How critically are you trying to match the values? Please remember that 'lytics are manufactured and sold with a rather wide tolerance range. For example, the Panasonic FM and FC series have a +/- 20% tolerance specification, and the nominal values they list (in the Digi-Key catalog at least) are around 20-30% apart... so there's some amount of overlap between the values you'd expect to get. Older caps were often sold with -20% +80% tolerance, which meant that you could end up getting quite a lot more capacitance than you had "paid for". In most cases, these days, I'd just look at the space I have available to fit the cap, and then pick the "equal or next largest capacitance, equal or higher working voltage" to what the BOM calls for. Unless there was a particular need for a specific value (e.g. for timing purpose) I wouldn't sweat about things like "the BOM calls for a 220 uF, and all they have in that size is a 330 uF." And, if there were timing issues involved, I don't think I'd be using a 'lytic at all in that application! Which brings me to my question. I was trying to get all Panasonic FM-series (hi-temp, low-ESR) caps. I've heard good things about Panasonic's caps, but being forced to another brand I has no idea of comparable quality. (This, at Digi-Key and Mouser.) I've heard good things about Nichicon, and have used them in some repair/retrofit projects. Don't have anywhere near enough information about long-term performance to be of help with your question, though. Also, How important is the type of electrolyte? I've read that low-ESR caps are frequently made with water-based electrolyte whereas non-water-based formulae cannot give low ESR value. For what it's worth, I've seen several of the PC-motherboard manufacturers touting their use of solid-electrolyte capacitors for the CPU VRM... and this is a high-current, high-ripple, low-ESR- is-very-important application. One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton (although I think this assumes very good cooling of the board). -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#10
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Thu, 7 May 2009 10:34:08 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote: Panasonic and Nichicon make about 20 different grades and "types" of electrolytics. Does one just look for high operating temp and low ESR, or are there other factors (or combinations thereof) to consider? Dimensions (which affects life reduction due to self heating as well as simply fitting the available space), lifetime (at temperature), cost, availability, low operating temperature, maximum ripple current, leakage current, tolerance, working voltage, surge voltage, etc. |
#11
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in
: Does one just look for high operating temp and low ESR Worked for me. I bet there is a more proper way to go, but I just assumed that those two considerations would give me the best lifetime, though I also add in a choice for a higher voltage cap because voltage headroom also certifies an easy ride and long life. |
#12
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
Spehro Pefhany wrote in
: Panasonic and Nichicon make about 20 different grades and "types" of electrolytics. Does one just look for high operating temp and low ESR, or are there other factors (or combinations thereof) to consider? Dimensions (which affects life reduction due to self heating as well as simply fitting the available space), lifetime (at temperature), cost, availability, low operating temperature, maximum ripple current, leakage current, tolerance, working voltage, surge voltage, etc. Those are interesting, but I found that it's often easier to focus on a subset. Dimensions are often dictated by the space, so I just go for higher voltage caps which will be bigger anyway, that solves the self-heating and the voltage overhead for safety. Availaibility is interesting, but often the best parts get neglected till people cry over spilt unobtainium. Although they cost a bit more, it might be best to go for them anyway, that way suppliers will take care of availability. The best way to make unobtainium is the slow fission of amnesium... One thing I never remember well is the correlation between ripple current and ESR, though I imagine low ESR types tolerate ripple currents better because they will dissipate less power per amp of ripple. |
#13
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Thu, 07 May 2009 13:59:30 -0500, Lostgallifreyan
wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote in : Panasonic and Nichicon make about 20 different grades and "types" of electrolytics. Does one just look for high operating temp and low ESR, or are there other factors (or combinations thereof) to consider? Dimensions (which affects life reduction due to self heating as well as simply fitting the available space), lifetime (at temperature), cost, availability, low operating temperature, maximum ripple current, leakage current, tolerance, working voltage, surge voltage, etc. Those are interesting, but I found that it's often easier to focus on a subset. Dimensions are often dictated by the space, so I just go for higher voltage caps which will be bigger anyway, that solves the self-heating and the voltage overhead for safety. Maybe for replacement use, where someone else has already crunched the numbers. Availaibility is interesting, but often the best parts get neglected till people cry over spilt unobtainium. I always try to use the most bog-standard, inexpensive, available and reliable parts. There's more than enough excitement to be had in the parts that really ought to be oddball. Although they cost a bit more, it might be best to go for them anyway, that way suppliers will take care of availability. The best way to make unobtainium is the slow fission of amnesium... I'm not eager to take dusty stock off the hands of distributors under most conditions. One thing I never remember well is the correlation between ripple current and ESR, though I imagine low ESR types tolerate ripple currents better because they will dissipate less power per amp of ripple. Yes, all other things being equal. One thing that's not obvious unless you study the data is that self-heating, even when within the allowable ripple current rating, can dramatically reduce the lifetime of the capacitors (and often also the product). |
#14
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What cap mfr. to use?
Spehro Pefhany wrote in
: I always try to use the most bog-standard, inexpensive, available and reliable parts. There's more than enough excitement to be had in the parts that really ought to be oddball. That's true, though I sometimes analogise with the old batteries, SP2 and HP2, in the UK, they were the safe middle ground of zinc carbon types, with all kinds of esoterica lingering from portable valve radios and specialised photoflash types. SP was standard power, HP, high power. SP was cheaper. Both endured (even now, I think) because people realised it was often better to pay more for HP as you usually got better bang per buck that way. I sometimes think the electronics industry is like buyers who all go for SP because it's cheaper, and still middle ground, and who come to mourn the demise of HP and likely only have themselves to blame. I think just edging a tier upward in performance is worth the cost. For one thing it is a good way to beat the disability culture that besets manufacturing now, and if unchecked, will result in government pressures to reduce inefficiency and waste. I suspect most makers would rather jump than be pushed, especially if jumping early gives them something to help advertise the product's reliability. Although they cost a bit more, it might be best to go for them anyway, that way suppliers will take care of availability. The best way to make unobtainium is the slow fission of amnesium... I'm not eager to take dusty stock off the hands of distributors under most conditions. Nor me, but by then it's usually too late anyway. Dusty amnesium is about as appetising as sweaty gelignite. |
#15
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What cap mfr. to use?
Lostgallifreyan wrote in
: disability Strange typo... meant 'disposability' And also for completeness and no good reason whatsoever, I wanted to mention that bell boxes and bike lights were also a source of some very bizarre and esoteric 'standard' batteries best avoided, now seen in museums, probably.. |
#16
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What cap mfr. to use?
In article , Dave Platt
writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? -- (\__/) (='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded. (")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png |
#17
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Dave Platt writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? "lifetime" is a word of dubious interpretation. Does it mean that it won't break in that time, that it can be repaired in that time if it does break, or something else? If they claimed an MTBF of 50,000 hours, that would be different. Sylvia. |
#18
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair
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What cap mfr. to use?
Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Dave Platt writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? After the bad caps debacle one manufacturer, it might be Gigabyte, moved to the OSCON type in which case it may very well be true. Graham |
#19
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Fri, 08 May 2009 22:04:27 +1000, Sylvia Else
wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Dave Platt writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? "lifetime" is a word of dubious interpretation. Does it mean that it won't break in that time, that it can be repaired in that time if it does break, or something else? If they claimed an MTBF of 50,000 hours, that would be different. Sylvia. AFAIUI, MTBF typically applies only to the flat part at the bottom of teh bathtub curve. They conveniently hack off the infantile failures at the left and the increasing failures as the useful life expires on the right. IOW, a product can have a much higher MTFB than the time it takes to wear out. Also, 50,000 hours 24/7 is only 5.7 years, which is more-or-less what you'd expect out of a motherboard. |
#20
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What cap mfr. to use?
Spehro Pefhany wrote: Sylvia Else wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote: Dave Platt writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? "lifetime" is a word of dubious interpretation. Does it mean that it won't break in that time, that it can be repaired in that time if it does break, or something else? If they claimed an MTBF of 50,000 hours, that would be different. AFAIUI, MTBF typically applies only to the flat part at the bottom of teh bathtub curve. They conveniently hack off the infantile failures at the left and the increasing failures as the useful life expires on the right. IOW, a product can have a much higher MTFB than the time it takes to wear out. Also, 50,000 hours 24/7 is only 5.7 years, which is more-or-less what you'd expect out of a motherboard. And if you run a 105C cap at 40C you'll get ~ 85 times the datasheet lifetime. So a 2,000 hr 105C cap would last over 19 years. Watch the ripple current of course ! Interesting point there. One decoupling cap on a mobo of mine near the graphics card slot was visibly bulged whereas others weren't. I imagine it was hot air being blown onto it by the GPU fan. Graham |
#21
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
In article , Spehro Pefhany
writes Also, 50,000 hours 24/7 is only 5.7 years, which is more-or-less what you'd expect out of a motherboard. Not from electrolytic caps, which was kind of the point. Even Panasonic specify only 10k hours for their top of the range electros. -- (\__/) (='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded. (")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png |
#22
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Fri, 8 May 2009 15:08:31 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote: In article , Spehro Pefhany writes Also, 50,000 hours 24/7 is only 5.7 years, which is more-or-less what you'd expect out of a motherboard. Not from electrolytic caps, which was kind of the point. Even Panasonic specify only 10k hours for their top of the range electros. I guess that would be a rather serious problem if the temperature inside your computer case averaged 105°C = 221°F. http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/friedegg.html |
#23
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
In article , Spehro Pefhany
writes I guess that would be a rather serious problem if the temperature inside your computer case averaged 105°C = 221°F. Seen a modern mainboard recently? Voltage regulation MOSFETs with heatsinks on, some with their own extractor fans? Heat coupled to the capacitors by a few millimetres of thick copper PCB trace for excellent heat conduction? -- (\__/) (='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded. (")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png |
#24
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
Also, 50,000 hours 24/7 is only 5.7 years, which is more-or-less what
you'd expect out of a motherboard. Not from electrolytic caps, which was kind of the point. Even Panasonic specify only 10k hours for their top of the range electros. But isn't that at "high" temperatures, or some other extreme operating condition? |
#25
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Fri, 8 May 2009 15:37:26 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote: In article , Spehro Pefhany writes I guess that would be a rather serious problem if the temperature inside your computer case averaged 105°C = 221°F. Seen a modern mainboard recently? Certainly. Voltage regulation MOSFETs with heatsinks on, some with their own extractor fans? Heat coupled to the capacitors by a few millimetres of thick copper PCB trace for excellent heat conduction? Have you put a thermocouple on the capacitors? |
#26
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
Mike Tomlinson wrote: Spehro Pefhany writes Also, 50,000 hours 24/7 is only 5.7 years, which is more-or-less what you'd expect out of a motherboard. Not from electrolytic caps, which was kind of the point. Even Panasonic specify only 10k hours for their top of the range electros. AT RATED TEMP and RATED RIPPLE CURRENT. Rarely found in combination except by bad design, and it does happen sometimes. You can get far better by de-rating. Rule of thumb is to reduce the temp from rated value by 10C and double the lifetime etc etc. Graham |
#27
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What cap mfr. to use?
William Sommerwerck wrote: Also, 50,000 hours 24/7 is only 5.7 years, which is more-or-less what you'd expect out of a motherboard. Not from electrolytic caps, which was kind of the point. Even Panasonic specify only 10k hours for their top of the range electros. But isn't that at "high" temperatures, or some other extreme operating condition? Yes. Grham |
#28
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
Mike Tomlinson wrote: Spehro Pefhany writes I guess that would be a rather serious problem if the temperature inside your computer case averaged 105°C = 221°F. Seen a modern mainboard recently? Voltage regulation MOSFETs with heatsinks on, some with their own extractor fans? Heat coupled to the capacitors by a few millimetres of thick copper PCB trace for excellent heat conduction? Point 1: You can ventilate your case and CPU far better than 'normal' methods. Point 2: leave the side panels off like I tend to do ! Graham |
#29
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What cap mfr. to use?
Spehro Pefhany wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote: Spehro Pefhany writes I guess that would be a rather serious problem if the temperature inside your computer case averaged 105°C = 221°F. Seen a modern mainboard recently? Certainly. Voltage regulation MOSFETs with heatsinks on, some with their own extractor fans? Heat coupled to the capacitors by a few millimetres of thick copper PCB trace for excellent heat conduction? Have you put a thermocouple on the capacitors? You need a themocouple and a suitable meter for that ! ;~) Graham |
#30
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What cap mfr. to use?
Sylvia Else wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Dave Platt writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? "lifetime" is a word of dubious interpretation. Does it mean that it won't break in that time, that it can be repaired in that time if it does break, or something else? If they claimed an MTBF of 50,000 hours, that would be different. ****, I'd generally be happy with 2000 hours MTBF. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- |
#31
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What cap mfr. to use?
Point 2: Leave the side panels off like I tend to do!
I do, but that's mostly to make it easy to perform full backups. The machine run coolers, though it spews more RF, which keeps atomic clocks in the same room from synching. By the way, check the CPU cooler occasionally. Mine hadn't been cleaned since I bought the computer over eight years ago, and you cannot believe how clogged with shmutz the heat sink was. |
#32
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What cap mfr. to use?
William Sommerwerck wrote: Point 2: Leave the side panels off like I tend to do! I do, but that's mostly to make it easy to perform full backups. The machine run coolers, though it spews more RF, which keeps atomic clocks in the same room from synching. Not a problem for me. By the way, check the CPU cooler occasionally. Mine hadn't been cleaned since I bought the computer over eight years ago, and you cannot believe how clogged with shmutz the heat sink was. I clean them moderately regularly. Plus I don't operate in a very dusty environment. Gragam |
#33
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What cap mfr. to use?
By the way, check the CPU cooler occasionally. Mine
hadn't been cleaned since I bought the computer over eight years ago, and you cannot believe how clogged with shmutz the heat sink was. I clean them moderately regularly. Plus I don't operate in a very dusty environment. Nor do I. This wasn't dust -- it was more like gobs of sub-microscopic carbon particles. |
#34
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What cap mfr. to use?
William Sommerwerck wrote: By the way, check the CPU cooler occasionally. Mine hadn't been cleaned since I bought the computer over eight years ago, and you cannot believe how clogged with shmutz the heat sink was. I clean them moderately regularly. Plus I don't operate in a very dusty environment. Nor do I. This wasn't dust -- it was more like gobs of sub-microscopic carbon particles. Never seen that. On the CPU cooler itself you mean ? Grham |
#35
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What cap mfr. to use?
Eeyore wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Dave Platt writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? After the bad caps debacle one manufacturer, it might be Gigabyte, moved to the OSCON type in which case it may very well be true. Graham Yes ! Gigabyte got bitten hard by that and the fake motherboard scam. -- Best Regards: Baron. |
#36
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Fri, 08 May 2009 17:12:11 +0100, Eeyore
wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote: Spehro Pefhany writes I guess that would be a rather serious problem if the temperature inside your computer case averaged 105°C = 221°F. Seen a modern mainboard recently? Certainly. Voltage regulation MOSFETs with heatsinks on, some with their own extractor fans? Heat coupled to the capacitors by a few millimetres of thick copper PCB trace for excellent heat conduction? Have you put a thermocouple on the capacitors? You need a themocouple and a suitable meter for that ! ;~) Graham Really? ;-) Of course many, if not most, portable multimeters have type K thermocouple inputs (of dubious accuracy, but good enough for this sort of thing) and many are supplied with a bead thermocouple. |
#37
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
On Sat, 09 May 2009 02:16:42 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote: Sylvia Else wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote: In article , Dave Platt writes One manufacturer was citing a "50,000 hour" lifetime figure on the motherboard carton Are you sure there isn't a microdot in the small print with the words "electrolytic capacitors excepted" printed on it? "lifetime" is a word of dubious interpretation. Does it mean that it won't break in that time, that it can be repaired in that time if it does break, or something else? If they claimed an MTBF of 50,000 hours, that would be different. ****, I'd generally be happy with 2000 hours MTBF. Less than 12 weeks? You have a bright potential future with Samsung, HP etc. |
#38
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
Spehro Pefhany wrote: Eeyore wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: Mike Tomlinson wrote: Spehro Pefhany writes I guess that would be a rather serious problem if the temperature inside your computer case averaged 105°C = 221°F. Seen a modern mainboard recently? Certainly. Voltage regulation MOSFETs with heatsinks on, some with their own extractor fans? Heat coupled to the capacitors by a few millimetres of thick copper PCB trace for excellent heat conduction? Have you put a thermocouple on the capacitors? You need a themocouple and a suitable meter for that ! ;~) Graham Really? ;-) Of course many, if not most, portable multimeters have type K thermocouple inputs (of dubious accuracy, but good enough for this sort of thing) and many are supplied with a bead thermocouple. Funnily enough, often some of the cheapest ones have the thermocouple input but I used to keep a supply of type-K themocoouples anyway. I like keeping an eye on temps. Graham |
#39
Posted to sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
I clean them moderately regularly. Plus I don't operate
in a very dusty environment. Nor do I. This wasn't dust -- it was more like gobs of sub-microscopic carbon particles. Never seen that. On the CPU cooler itself you mean? On the heat-sink. It reminded me of the black stuff that comes off a CRT faceplate. Only a lot more. |
#40
Posted to sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair,alt.engineering.electrical
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What cap mfr. to use?
On May 7, 6:53*am, DaveC wrote:
Today I ordered electrolytic caps. It was frustrating. I had planned to get the best low-ESR replacements for all the caps in some switching power supplies. I discovered how limited any one manufacturer's low-ESR catalog is. Many of what I needed (none of which seem to me to be esoteric values) were not available. A couple of times I had to leave a particular manufacturer's catalog altogether to find a value. Which brings me to my question. I was trying to get all Panasonic FM-series (hi-temp, low-ESR) caps. I've heard good things about Panasonic's caps, but being forced to another brand I has no idea of comparable quality. (This, at Digi-Key and Mouser.) Also, How important is the type of electrolyte? I've read that low- ESR caps are frequently made with water-based electrolyte whereas non-water- based formulae cannot give low ESR value. The qualities of caps (ie, hi-ripple, hi-temp, low-ESR, etc.) are frequently discussed on electronics forum, but I haven't seen the different manufacturers compared. How do the quality of caps compare by Nichicon Panasonic Vishay / Sprague Mallory Rubycon United Chemi-Con Cornell Dublier Xicon Feel free to add to the list, praise, trash, and/or list in order of your preference. Extra credit for essays on why you like / hate / prefer a brand or series of caps. Thanks, -- DaveC I buy the replacement parts at a Hollywood dub house. Last year I bought 14.000 'lytics , 10,000 installed by 3 of us. My first choice in Panasonic FM but the selection isn't as wide as the second choice of FC caps. If I run into a physical size problem Nichicon PW series often helps. For surface mount first choice is Panasonic FK and sometimes HC series. If you're doing this a lot like we are, Metcal soldering irons are HIGHLY recommended. The STTC-126 tip (700 F 30 degree bent tip) is really good for clearing stubborn holes - usually ground planes with lousy thermal reliefs. A lifted pad is a very rare event with a good soldering iron. 100uf 25V (most common value for us) cost 20 cents in 1's 10.28 / 100 but are only $57.54 / 1000. I try for 1000s whenever possible. G² |