ian field wrote:
"Ron Johnson" wrote in message
...
jakdedert wrote:
John E. wrote:
... and I never ever use rechargables in radio packs.
ROn(UK)
Why? [if you wouldn't mind a newbie question...]
See my multiple posts on the subject. For most presentation purposes,
the proven reliability of the good old alkaline--fresh out of the box--is
superior. One less thing to worry about in a complex and demanding
environment.

The cost of having a show 'go down' is much more than that of fresh
cells...especially if the cost is losing your job.

What he said. The risk just isn't worth it for the price of a few
batteries.
There`s also the factor that some low end radio mikes seem to object to
rechargable batteries (certainly nicads) It`s possibly the batteries
internal resistance changing as it discharges.
I`ve not really studied it, but when the rechargable discharges beyond a
certain point, the transmitters agc seems to get screwed up and unstable,
feedback is the result. Maybe someone with more technical understanding
can explain.

Ron(UK)

You don't need much technical understanding to know that NiCd & NiMh
batteries have a lower terminal voltage.


It`s not to do with the terminal voltage, it`s something to do with the
batteries internal resistance. Wireless packs are designed for
replacable batteries. The internal battery metering is calibrated for
Alkalines.

Remember the OP was talking 9v (PP3) batteries here, You're asking for
trouble using anything other than Procells or Energisers.

Ron

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:13:13 -0000, Ron Johnson wrote:

ian field wrote:
"Ron Johnson" wrote in message
...
jakdedert wrote:
John E. wrote:
... and I never ever use rechargables in radio packs.
ROn(UK)
Why? [if you wouldn't mind a newbie question...]
See my multiple posts on the subject. For most presentation purposes,
the proven reliability of the good old alkaline--fresh out of the box--is
superior. One less thing to worry about in a complex and demanding
environment.

The cost of having a show 'go down' is much more than that of fresh
cells...especially if the cost is losing your job.

What he said. The risk just isn't worth it for the price of a few
batteries.
There`s also the factor that some low end radio mikes seem to object to
rechargable batteries (certainly nicads) It`s possibly the batteries
internal resistance changing as it discharges.
I`ve not really studied it, but when the rechargable discharges beyond a
certain point, the transmitters agc seems to get screwed up and unstable,
feedback is the result. Maybe someone with more technical understanding
can explain.

Ron(UK)

You don't need much technical understanding to know that NiCd & NiMh
batteries have a lower terminal voltage.


It`s not to do with the terminal voltage, it`s something to do with the
batteries internal resistance. Wireless packs are designed for
replacable batteries. The internal battery metering is calibrated for
Alkalines.

Remember the OP was talking 9v (PP3) batteries here, You're asking for
trouble using anything other than Procells or Energisers.

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

A beautiful young girl is about to undergo a minor operation.
She's laid on a trolley bed by a lady in a white dress and brought to the corridor.
Before they enter the room she leaves her behind the theatre door to go in and check whether everything is ready.
A young man wearing a white coat approaches, takes the sheet away and starts examining her naked body.
He walks away and talks to another man in a white coat.
The second man comes over and does the same examinations.
When a third man starts examining her body so closely, she grows impatient and says:
"All these examinations are fine and appreciated, but when are you going to start the operation?"
The man in the white coat shrugged his shoulders: "I have no idea. We're just painting the corridor."

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


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"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!

ian field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!


I forgot: A frozen parrot on a stick doesn't count.


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The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

ian field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!


I forgot: A frozen parrot on a stick doesn't count.


PHucker couldn't even design that!

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

"Ron(UK)" wrote in
:

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street shop
level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For decades dull
black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on them, regardless of how
tacky they are, never has an industry blown its trumpet so loudly.

Do they use alkalines in space? In oil drilling gear that has to go down deep
in the earth and stand vibrations? In pacemakers? In aircraft black boxes?
Ok, maybe they do, sometimes, but there are lot of battery technologies
reached for when mission critical reliability is needed, and I bet most
industries don't reach for alkalines. Oil wells reach for lithium thionyl
chloride, for example. If long life primaries with extreme reliability are
important to people who are so up themselves with their 'reputation' and
their expensive hours that are worth SO many batteries, why not buy those?

Instead of clinging to one aging method that is highly polluting, use some
imagination and explore what REAL professionals with mission critical
requirements are up to. Compared to those, the industry that makes such a
song and dance of putting microphones in front of delegates at conferences is
like the hairdressers and telephone sanitisers that Douglas Adams whimsically
crashlanded on some planet along with a captain with a penchant for bathtubs
and rubber ducks. While we need entertainment and communication to make
life worth living, people used to get by till very recently without having to
use so many mics to feel important or get themselves heard.

Get a grip. This thread has wound its way round this silly circle for too
long, and I should never have got into it myself, but I have, and this is my
parting shot. I'll read the flames if I have the patience, but I will try not
to get further involved.

I admit to using a few alkalines at times, but either where laziness is more
attractive than performance, or where nothing else fits yet. If I could
change all to Li-ion or lithium thionyl chloride types, I would.
Specifically, the only time I justify an alkaline is when I need a PP3 that
is ready to use, between long periods of disuse. For anything else, I find
another way.

In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:
In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use
quality replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street
shop level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For
decades dull black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on
them, regardless of how tacky they are, never has an industry blown its
trumpet so loudly.

Err, we're talking radio mics here. And pro ones are in a different league
to the low end stuff. They have to be rugged - and possible to fix if
damaged.

Do they use alkalines in space?

That's a stupid comparison - you'd have to take all those needed with you.
Plus the fact that 'space' has easy and constant access to a source of
power - the sun. Unheard of in the UK. ;-)

In oil drilling gear that has to go down deep in the earth and stand
vibrations?

They use PP3s there? Or AAs? AAAs?

In pacemakers?

Cost almost certainly doesn't matter there.

In aircraft black boxes?

Any battery used in that will be a backup.

Ok, maybe they do, sometimes, but there are lot of battery technologies
reached for when mission critical reliability is needed, and I bet most
industries don't reach for alkalines.

Their requirements are likely different. With radio mics you need a
cost/performance/reliability compromise.

Oil wells reach for lithium thionyl chloride, for
example. If long life primaries with extreme reliability are important
to people who are so up themselves with their 'reputation' and their
expensive hours that are worth SO many batteries, why not buy those?

I can give a reason. Very high capacity (and cost) primary cells might be
ok where you can log the usage. Unfortunately in the film etc world this
isn't always possible - one person might be looking after dozens of the
things. So fitting brand new ones with a reasonable life is simply more
convenient - you change them all at natural break times. That might be
once a day - or twice. With some, three times. Most give a life of at
least 5 hours.

Instead of clinging to one aging method that is highly polluting, use
some imagination and explore what REAL professionals with mission
critical requirements are up to. Compared to those, the industry that
makes such a song and dance of putting microphones in front of
delegates at conferences is like the hairdressers and telephone
sanitisers that Douglas Adams whimsically crashlanded on some planet
along with a captain with a penchant for bathtubs and rubber ducks.
While we need entertainment and communication to make life worth
living, people used to get by till very recently without having to use
so many mics to feel important or get themselves heard.

Thanks for showing you don't have any understanding of this industry.

Think I met you once in the form of a large middle aged lady. I was
working on a live TV current affairs program. Went to clip a mic on her
and she said 'I don't need that, I have a perfectly good voice'

Get a grip. This thread has wound its way round this silly circle for
too long, and I should never have got into it myself, but I have, and
this is my parting shot. I'll read the flames if I have the patience,
but I will try not to get further involved.

It's as well to understand the problems in an individual industry before
trying to apply fixes from another. TV is full of kids just out of college
trying to do just that - and failing miserably. I've seen hundreds come
and go...

I admit to using a few alkalines at times, but either where laziness is
more attractive than performance, or where nothing else fits yet. If I
could change all to Li-ion or lithium thionyl chloride types, I would.
Specifically, the only time I justify an alkaline is when I need a PP3
that is ready to use, between long periods of disuse. For anything
else, I find another way.

One of the most important things with some RMs is size - if they have to
be concealed on the body. Better batteries allow smaller units. But good
RMs are extremely expensive and none will junk good ones just for this.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Think I met you once in the form of a large middle aged lady. I was
working on a live TV current affairs program. Went to clip a mic on her
and she said 'I don't need that, I have a perfectly good voice'


I would have told her that the audience was miles away, and her voice
wouldn't carry that far. Then I would hint that I would have the Cyron
operator put up a message that she had refused to use a microphone
because 'I don't need that, I have a perfectly good voice' and see how
fast she changed her mind.

I had one of the power supply boards in a RCA TK 46 studio camera
start to fail while on air. I was in the process of rebuilding every
board of that type and had just finished one so I slipped into the rear
door of the studio & got that camera operator's attention. He used his
intercom headset to inform the control room & director so I could repair
the camera between shots. I had just finished when the preacher on
camera called out to me to join him in singing some southern gospel, on
live TV. I politely refused, because my singing voice is registered as a
lethal weapon.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:

Ron wrote:
In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use
quality replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street
shop level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For
decades dull black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on
them, regardless of how tacky they are, never has an industry blown its
trumpet so loudly.

Err, we're talking radio mics here. And pro ones are in a different league
to the low end stuff. They have to be rugged - and possible to fix if
damaged.

In an industry where possibly 40 or 50, radio packs may be used nightly
on a single live show, do you really think they would use the more
expensive solution of using replacable batteries without good reason if
they could get away with using rechargables and saving money?
One microphone failure on a West End or Broadway show could cost a lot
of money and someone his or her job.

Ron(UK)

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

In an industry where possibly 40 or 50, radio packs may be used nightly
on a single live show, do you really think they would use the more
expensive solution of using replacable batteries without good reason if
they could get away with using rechargables and saving money?
One microphone failure on a West End or Broadway show could cost a lot
of money and someone his or her job.


It could get the company blacklisted in the industry as well. I've
seen contracts that specified the exact equipment to be used. If yo
can't supply it, you can't have the contract. ANY deviation is breech
of contract.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:43:09 -0000, Ron(UK) wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:

Ron wrote:
In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use
quality replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street
shop level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For
decades dull black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on
them, regardless of how tacky they are, never has an industry blown its
trumpet so loudly.

Err, we're talking radio mics here. And pro ones are in a different league
to the low end stuff. They have to be rugged - and possible to fix if
damaged.

In an industry where possibly 40 or 50, radio packs may be used nightly
on a single live show, do you really think they would use the more
expensive solution of using replacable batteries without good reason if
they could get away with using rechargables and saving money?
One microphone failure on a West End or Broadway show could cost a lot
of money and someone his or her job.

Ron(UK)

If you use decent NiMH batteries, and only use them for a year, you will be no more likely to have a flat mic than if you use alkalines.

--
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Golfer: "Please stop checking your watch all the time, caddy. It's distracting!"
Caddy: "This isn't a watch Sir, it's a compass!"

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.


I used to have a badly damaged wireless mic that caught fire while in
use. If it hadn't been in a thick leather case the user would have had
third degree burns where the ni-cads failed. He got some first & second
degree burns as it was. The inside of the leather case was soaked with
the contents of the vented cells, which would have caused more damage.
The brand & model information was burnt off, along with most of the
circuitry. The man using it reportedly grabbed it from his chest & threw
it across the room before it could do more damage. When they showed it
to me they didn't know who made it, and the dealer they bought it from
was out of business.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:28:09 -0000, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.

Duracell quote PP3 9v internal resistance as 1.7ohm, which makes the Short circuit current 5.29 Amps - not nearly as much as a NiCd!
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/new/MN1604_US_CT.pdf

--
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