Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

wrote in message
...
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".


It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

I've never known it to matter, as long as they are both wired the same way
round, as you say. Reverse wiring just one will result in a lack of bass and
a 'woolly' stereo image, as I'm sure you are aware. If you think about it,
any waveform driving them will have a pretty symmetrical count of positive
and negative half cycles of largely similar amplitude, so there is no real
reason why the speaker moving back, at a time when the diaphragm in the
microphone that made the original recording was moving forward, should have
any effect. The theory also assumes that the phase relationship was
maintained throughout the entire recording process, and that there is no
inversion taking place in amplifier stages in your player, that isn't
reversed again, by the time the signal reaches the output terminals ...

Arfa

wrote in message
...
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

Do you want fixed "image" stereo or musicians "wandering around in space"?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

wrote:
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William
In a word, no. The only time that speaker polarity 'really' matters in
non-critical situations is in cases where different speakers in a system
are wired differently...leading to cancellation (one speaker is
'pushing' air, while another is 'pulling'.)

In your case, if those are the only two speakers in the car, absolute
polarity is irrelevant.

Next time, use a 9v battery to check. *Briefly* touch the battery
terminals to the speaker terminals. The speaker polarity matches the
battery polarity when doing so makes the speaker cone extend, as opposed
to pulling in. IOW, when the cone comes out, the positive battery
terminal is connected to the positive speaker terminal.

jak

On 2 Gen, 17:56, wrote:
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

I don't know whether there is any standard among audio equipment
manufacturers that guarantees at the speaker output the same phase as
the original signal, and this could be the real issue. If there were
one, then I would suggest you correcting your polarity. Probably you
will soon agree yourself if you think of the sound that comes from a
bass drum vigorously hit by the pedal.
Antonio - Italy

Hi!

To everyone who has replied so far, thank you for your information.

I would have normally used a nine volt battery to check the polarity,
but I couldn't find one anywhere in the various messes I have. :-)

I think I'll go ahead and correct the speaker polarity so that it at
least matches what the radio manufacturer and speaker manufacturers
say it "should" be. This will not be difficult. There are only two
speakers in the car (at this time...I may add two more later the car's
design permits it) However, I do see the point that one poster made
about which way the speaker cone will "fire" when a large signal comes
its way. It would seem logical that the speaker cone can extend much
further outward than it can inward (toward the speaker basket).

Again, thanks for the info. I will keep checking into this posting if
more information shows up.

William

hath wroth:

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

It doesn't matter. The speaker audio has no DC component and neither
is connected to the speaker frame. The AC component of the audio is
generally symmetrical about the 0 volt axis. Whether you push or you
pull doesn't really matter. However, you do have to get the phasing
correct between the two speakers to avoid "ping pong" stereo. Try a
test CD where a train or car goes from the left to right speakers. If
it sounds "real", then you got it right. If it bounces back and forth
between speakers, reverse ONE of the speaker polarities.

I forgot to mail you the PS2 boards. I also found some Dallas clock
blobs. Sorry. Still want them?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Jan 2, 11:54*am, wrote:
Hi!

To everyone who has replied so far, thank you for your information.

I would have normally used a nine volt battery to check the polarity,
but I couldn't find one anywhere in the various messes I have. :-)

I think I'll go ahead and correct the speaker polarity so that it at
least matches what the radio manufacturer and speaker manufacturers
say it "should" be. This will not be difficult. There are only two
speakers in the car (at this time...I may add two more later the car's
design permits it) However, I do see the point that one poster made
about which way the speaker cone will "fire" when a large signal comes
its way. It would seem logical that the speaker cone can extend much
further outward than it can inward (toward the speaker basket).

Again, thanks for the info. I will keep checking into this posting if
more information shows up.

William

The speakers should move equally in and out if they are not to distort
the sound.

Some people believe that "absolute" polarity matters -- that is, a
compression (rarefaction) in the original sound should be reproduced as a
compression (rarefaction). I experimented with this 28 years ago, and never
heard an effect from simply flopping the polarity of both channels. Even if
it were audible, there are no industry standards for recording polarity.

All that matters in practice is that both sides are wired identically. This
gives maximum bass, and guarantees that mono components will be properly
centered.

Meat Plow wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:11:29 +0000, Arfa Daily wrote:

wrote in message
...
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William
I've never known it to matter, as long as they are both wired the same way
round, as you say. Reverse wiring just one will result in a lack of bass and
a 'woolly' stereo image, as I'm sure you are aware. If you think about it,
any waveform driving them will have a pretty symmetrical count of positive
and negative half cycles of largely similar amplitude, so there is no real
reason why the speaker moving back, at a time when the diaphragm in the
microphone that made the original recording was moving forward, should have
any effect. The theory also assumes that the phase relationship was
maintained throughout the entire recording process, and that there is no
inversion taking place in amplifier stages in your player, that isn't
reversed again, by the time the signal reaches the output terminals ...

Arfa

It would matter for impulses from the waveform say as in a drum beat?
Wouldn't the beat of a kick drum cause the speaker cone to move inward if
the polarity is reversed? This certainly wouldn't be suitable for a sound
reinforcement system.


One might think that, but flipping the polarity on a kik drum mike has
little if any effect on the sound through the PA. Sometimes I mike a
bass drum from both sides, using a 'bassdrum' mike on the front head and
a normal instrument mike on the batter head. Reversing the polarity of
the batter head mike does make a difference in this instance.
Ron(UK)

"Meat Plow" wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:11:29 +0000, Arfa Daily wrote:

wrote
[...]
Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".


It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

I've never known it to matter, as long as they are both wired the same way
round, as you say. Reverse wiring just one will result in a lack of bass and
a 'woolly' stereo image, as I'm sure you are aware. If you think about it,
any waveform driving them will have a pretty symmetrical count of positive
and negative half cycles of largely similar amplitude, so there is no real
reason why the speaker moving back, at a time when the diaphragm in the
microphone that made the original recording was moving forward, should have
any effect. The theory also assumes that the phase relationship was
maintained throughout the entire recording process, and that there is no
inversion taking place in amplifier stages in your player, that isn't
reversed again, by the time the signal reaches the output terminals ...

Arfa

It would matter for impulses from the waveform say as in a drum beat?
Wouldn't the beat of a kick drum cause the speaker cone to move inward if
the polarity is reversed? This certainly wouldn't be suitable for a sound
reinforcement system.

Basically (and I have some experience with audio and hi-fi, including an
electroacoustics degree - but I am NOT an "expert"), I agree with Arfa that
for MOST practical purposes, as long as both speakers are connected with
the same polarity, then it'll be fine and you won't be able to distinguish
one polarity from the other.

If one speaker is wired in antiphase with the other, you'll lose bass to
an extent that depends on room geometry and speaker positioning - but
whatever happens, it won't be good.

There has indeed been debate about whether people are sensitive to
"absolute phase"; and I remember reading about higher-end DAC units for
CDs that included a switch to flip phase on both channels. ISTR, an d
I may be wrong, that back in the late 80s when I had a part-time job
at a hi-fi shop, there was a Musical Fidelity outboard DAC unit that
featured such a switch - but it was 20 years ago, so don't quote me.

Personally I don't believe that people are sensitive to absolute phase, and
anyone who claims they are needs to submit to a double-blind test, and
maybe if they pass, go and have a word with James Randi, who while
AFAIK he isn't offering a prize for absolute phase YET, may be interested
in handing out a financial prize if they can repeat the souble-blind
performance repeatably. He offers a prize to those claiming to be able to
distinguish between interconnect cables (providing both sets are reasonably
well-executed and one pair isn't made of wet string, for example!).

As Meat Plow suggests, there COULD be an issue with high cone excursions,
where on a bass kick, or similar, the cone former may hit the endstop
on the way IN (away from the listener) with the speaker wired one way
round, but not with it wired the other way round. However, that's a
completely separate consideration unrelated to human sensitivity to
"absolute phase". You just hear a nasty knocking sound when it happens and
risk damaging your bass unit. If you're driving them that hard though, you
may encounter problems regardless of polarity.

Summary: Make sure both speakers are wired the same way round. That done,
forget worrying about it. Unless you're maybe doing an acoustics PhD.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie

Hi!

Try a test CD where a train or car goes from the left to right
speakers. If it sounds "real", then you got it right.

I must have it right then. Both speakers are wired exactly the same
way. I was careful to be sure of that and even used different colored
wire. The "+" lead is red while the "-" is black. Stereo separation is
excellent, and sounds that do move "across" from one speaker to the
other do sound "real". In fact, it's quite surprising how good the
sound really is. The speakers are small, so they don't have a whole
lot of bass, but otherwise the sound is good, if a bit centered on the
midrange.

I forgot to mail you the PS2 boards. I also found some Dallas
clock blobs. Sorry. Still want them?

Yep. Dallas clock blobs (!!!) are also interesting. I have been
reworking them...maybe I mentioned that.

William

Meat Plow wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 19:05:13 +0000, Ron(UK) wrote:

Meat Plow wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:11:29 +0000, Arfa Daily wrote:

wrote in message
...
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William
I've never known it to matter, as long as they are both wired the same way
round, as you say. Reverse wiring just one will result in a lack of bass and
a 'woolly' stereo image, as I'm sure you are aware. If you think about it,
any waveform driving them will have a pretty symmetrical count of positive
and negative half cycles of largely similar amplitude, so there is no real
reason why the speaker moving back, at a time when the diaphragm in the
microphone that made the original recording was moving forward, should have
any effect. The theory also assumes that the phase relationship was
maintained throughout the entire recording process, and that there is no
inversion taking place in amplifier stages in your player, that isn't
reversed again, by the time the signal reaches the output terminals ...

Arfa
It would matter for impulses from the waveform say as in a drum beat?
Wouldn't the beat of a kick drum cause the speaker cone to move inward if
the polarity is reversed? This certainly wouldn't be suitable for a sound
reinforcement system.

One might think that, but flipping the polarity on a kik drum mike has
little if any effect on the sound through the PA. Sometimes I mike a
bass drum from both sides, using a 'bassdrum' mike on the front head and
a normal instrument mike on the batter head. Reversing the polarity of
the batter head mike does make a difference in this instance.
Ron(UK)

Hmmmmm I would think the pressure wave created from the bass drum head
upon the mic element would be mimicked at the speaker. Not that I don't
trust your years of experience but I just need to get a hands on with this
one.


I`m sure it does, but the initial pulse from a bass drum hit is a lot
higher in frequency than you might think.
If you look at a trace of a drum hit it`s quite a complex waveform,
although there`s a lot of low frequency energy, the main transient
impulse is mid band where you shouldn't be getting a lot of cone
excursion. Often this mid band impulse is accentuated by a sound
engineer to get the bass drum to 'pop out' over the rest of the band.
The bottom end is still there, but the punch comes from higher up.

The low sound that you feel in your gut (63/80hz ish) is usually
reproduced by different sub bass speaker cabinets (and amplifiers) that
are easily capable of handling those kind of frequencies. Subs are
generally crossed over around 80/100 cycles and can be driven with
several kilowatts of amplifier power.

If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much when
it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Ron(UK)

Ron(UK) wrote:
snipped for brevity

If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much when
it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Actually, it does move quite a bit; but the operative dimension is not
the excursion, but the size of the head vs. the size of the speaker. To
move as much air as a 20-someodd inch bass drum head--moving x
distance--the 6 to 18 inch woofer cone has to move correspondingly
farther. I'm sure there's a mathematical relationship there that I
don't have the chops to calculate....

jak
Ron(UK)

jakdedert wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
snipped for brevity

If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much
when it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Actually, it does move quite a bit; but the operative dimension is not
the excursion, but the size of the head vs. the size of the speaker. To
move as much air as a 20-someodd inch bass drum head--moving x
distance--the 6 to 18 inch woofer cone has to move correspondingly
farther. I'm sure there's a mathematical relationship there that I
don't have the chops to calculate....

The majority of the initial energy is outside the range of the
subwoofer, also a bass drum (any drum in fact) is a tuned instrument.
the 'x distance' excursion as you put it, is very small in relation to
the sound output, maybe half an inch or so on a properly tuned bass
drum. Don't go by the front head which is often far slacker than the
batter head, sometimes it`s only there for show.

IMO
Ron(UK)

Meat Plow wrote:

It would matter for impulses from the waveform say as in a drum beat?
Wouldn't the beat of a kick drum cause the speaker cone to move inward if
the polarity is reversed? This certainly wouldn't be suitable for a sound
reinforcement system.

You presume that the recording-reproduction chain is polarity accurate. IME it's a
lottery.

Graham

In article
,
wrote:
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

Basically you're talking about so called 'absolute phase'. Which is total
rubbish spouted by some self appointed 'experts'. If you think of a sine
wave, moving your head relative to the source can reverse the phase at any
one point in time.

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

No reason to at all.

William

--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
wrote:
Hi!

To everyone who has replied so far, thank you for your information.

I would have normally used a nine volt battery to check the polarity,
but I couldn't find one anywhere in the various messes I have. :-)

A single cell - ie 1.5 volts - is quite sufficient to test a speaker

I think I'll go ahead and correct the speaker polarity so that it at
least matches what the radio manufacturer and speaker manufacturers
say it "should" be. This will not be difficult. There are only two
speakers in the car (at this time...I may add two more later the car's
design permits it) However, I do see the point that one poster made
about which way the speaker cone will "fire" when a large signal comes
its way. It would seem logical that the speaker cone can extend much
further outward than it can inward (toward the speaker basket).

Not so - since a speaker may have to reproduce a sine wave it has to move
equal amounts back and forth. If it doesn't it will distort the sound.

Again, thanks for the info. I will keep checking into this posting if
more information shows up.

William

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Meat Plow wrote:

It would matter for impulses from the waveform say as in a drum beat?
Wouldn't the beat of a kick drum cause the speaker cone to move inward if
the polarity is reversed? This certainly wouldn't be suitable for a sound
reinforcement system.

You presume that the recording-reproduction chain is polarity accurate.
IME it's a
lottery.

Graham


Which was one of the points I made, too ...

Arfa

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

Do you want fixed "image" stereo or musicians "wandering around in space"?


How do you figure that absolute phase can have any such effect ?

Arfa

In article ,
Ron(UK) wrote:
One might think that, but flipping the polarity on a kik drum mike has
little if any effect on the sound through the PA. Sometimes I mike a
bass drum from both sides, using a 'bassdrum' mike on the front head and
a normal instrument mike on the batter head. Reversing the polarity of
the batter head mike does make a difference in this instance.

It's normal in any multi-mic situation to go round all the mics at check
time with one on a long cable etc and check the phase of them all.

(For those not clear on how to do this you place them close together and
talk. The sound mixer then fades then both up to the same level and
reverses the phase of one. You will get a large drop in level etc when
they're out of phase.)

Of course most good make mics, cables and mixers will be in phase with
themselves - but it's sometimes not the case with all makes of mics and of
course you have to allow for careless repairs.

Deliberately reversing the phase on one mic or group of mics is sometimes
used for operational reasons.

Other one to look out for is ribbon mics. Turning them round reverses the
phase and it may be convenient for mic placement to use the back rather
than the front.

--
*All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Ron(UK) wrote:
If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much when
it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

--
Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.

wrote:

Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William
All that it matters is what they are all wired the same why in your car.
But if you want to make sure you are wired as the others, follow the code/
It does make a difference.
for example, You don't want one speaker pulling in while the other is
pushing out on the same tone, this will cause it to cancel and will be
noticed in the bass regions mostly.

If you're not sure of the polarity, I have always turned on the
system and played something with some bass in it. the correct polarity
will yield the max bass..



--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

"Jamie" t wrote in message
...
wrote:

Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William
All that it matters is what they are all wired the same why in your car.
But if you want to make sure you are wired as the others, follow the
code/
It does make a difference.
for example, You don't want one speaker pulling in while the other is
pushing out on the same tone, this will cause it to cancel and will be
noticed in the bass regions mostly.

If you're not sure of the polarity, I have always turned on the system
and played something with some bass in it. the correct polarity will yield
the max bass..



--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"



I agree with the notion that absolute phase is irrelevant, but one thing to
consider is that if there are other speakers or the speakers in question are
part of a system with a crossover, then you are not just talking about
absolute phase. You could have a situation where the two speakers are out
of phase with others...

Leonard

clifto wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much when
it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then,
spend some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about
loud....

jak

jakdedert wrote:
clifto wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much
when it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be
considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then, spend
some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about loud....

Absolutely, a drumkit should be thought of as one instrument, rather
than a collection of drums. A decent kit has all the parts nicely
balanced with each other.
For a lot of big band work, we often mike up a normal drumkit with just
two overhead mikes - just one if there`s no need for stereo. The bass
drum comes through just fine[1] Of course, it ALL depends on the talent
of the man playing the drums.

[1] I am of course referring to live sound reinforcement.


Ron(UK)

In article , jakdedert wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
snipped for brevity

If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much when
it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.

Actually, it does move quite a bit; but the operative dimension is not
the excursion, but the size of the head vs. the size of the speaker. To
move as much air as a 20-someodd inch bass drum head--moving x
distance--the 6 to 18 inch woofer cone has to move correspondingly
farther. I'm sure there's a mathematical relationship there that I
don't have the chops to calculate....


It gets a lot more complicated since a ported enclosure minimizes the woofer
movement. The port will be the dominate output device if the bass is near
the tuned frequency. The phase will vary around all this anyway so absolute phase
is a guess.

greg

In article , "Leonard Caillouet" wrote:
"Jamie" t wrote in message
...
wrote:

Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William
All that it matters is what they are all wired the same why in your car.
But if you want to make sure you are wired as the others, follow the
code/
It does make a difference.
for example, You don't want one speaker pulling in while the other is
pushing out on the same tone, this will cause it to cancel and will be
noticed in the bass regions mostly.

If you're not sure of the polarity, I have always turned on the system
and played something with some bass in it. the correct polarity will yield
the max bass..



--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"



I agree with the notion that absolute phase is irrelevant, but one thing to
consider is that if there are other speakers or the speakers in question are
part of a system with a crossover, then you are not just talking about
absolute phase. You could have a situation where the two speakers are out
of phase with others...

Yes, when talking about individual drivers within a system, you have different situations.
Phase between upper and lower drivers will change response and polar patterns.

greg

On Jan 2, 2:05*pm, "Ron(UK)" wrote:
One might think that, but flipping the polarity on a kik drum mike has
little if any effect on the sound through the PA. Sometimes I mike a
bass drum from both sides, using a 'bassdrum' mike on the front head and
a normal instrument mike on the batter head. Reversing the polarity of
the batter head mike does make a difference in this instance.
Ron(UK)

Of course it matters in that case. Mic'ing from the other side of the
drum will effectively produce a reverse polarity signal from the mic.

Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 09:05:47 +0000, Ron(UK) wrote:

jakdedert wrote:
clifto wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
If you think about it, the bass drum head itself doesn't move much
when it`s hit by the beater, why should the speaker.
Because the music from the speaker expects the bass drum to be
considerably
louder than the actual bass drum was when recorded.

Stick your head in a bass drum sometime and tell me if it's loud or not.
Okay, you meant relative to the other instruments, but even then, spend
some time in a rock band rehearsal room and tell me again about loud....
Absolutely, a drumkit should be thought of as one instrument, rather
than a collection of drums. A decent kit has all the parts nicely
balanced with each other.
For a lot of big band work, we often mike up a normal drumkit with just
two overhead mikes - just one if there`s no need for stereo. The bass
drum comes through just fine[1] Of course, it ALL depends on the talent
of the man playing the drums.

[1] I am of course referring to live sound reinforcement.



Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.


That`s the classic jazz set up

boardjunkie wrote:
On Jan 2, 2:05 pm, "Ron(UK)" wrote:
One might think that, but flipping the polarity on a kik drum mike has
little if any effect on the sound through the PA. Sometimes I mike a
bass drum from both sides, using a 'bassdrum' mike on the front head and
a normal instrument mike on the batter head. Reversing the polarity of
the batter head mike does make a difference in this instance.
Ron(UK)

Of course it matters in that case. Mic'ing from the other side of the
drum will effectively produce a reverse polarity signal from the mic.

Yes, it drives a hole through the sound making the bass drum both tubby
and clicky, which is sometimes what you want. Theoretically, one mike
either side of a head, with one mike reversed polarity, puts them both
in phase with the sound from the head. We sometimes do the same with
snare, one above, one below

Ron(UK)

hath wroth:

Hi!

Right now, it's "high". I accidentally double dosed on the meds 2
nights ago and still feel rather "high" this morning. Wheeeee....

Try a test CD where a train or car goes from the left to right
speakers. If it sounds "real", then you got it right.

I must have it right then. Both speakers are wired exactly the same
way. I was careful to be sure of that and even used different colored
wire. The "+" lead is red while the "-" is black. Stereo separation is
excellent, and sounds that do move "across" from one speaker to the
other do sound "real". In fact, it's quite surprising how good the
sound really is. The speakers are small, so they don't have a whole
lot of bass, but otherwise the sound is good, if a bit centered on the
midrange.

Sounds right. I have a pair of microphones plugged into a dual
channel scope (Tek 422) which I used for checking the phase on speaker
systems. A tone to all speakers and a Lissajous pattern works well. I
found one 5.1 systems that arrives stock frome the factory with the
phasing all wrong. Sigh.

I forgot to mail you the PS2 boards. I also found some Dallas
clock blobs. Sorry. Still want them?

Yep. Dallas clock blobs (!!!) are also interesting. I have been
reworking them...maybe I mentioned that.

I have 4ea Dallas blobs for you. Maybe more. I'll get everything
packaged up and mailed next week. My appologies for the delay.
(Excuse: The boxes got stored by the hired help in the back of the
closet and were instantly forgotten).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Meat Plow hath wroth:

Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.

Yep, and for a good reason. The drum set covers a wide frequency
range. Bass drum is mostly at the low end of the audio spectrum,
while all the brass is near the high end. The problem is that the
lower frequency stuff is almost isotropic (radiates equally in all
directions), while the high frequency stuff is fairly directional. For
example, the snake and hat tend to radiate more up and downward than
toward the audience. The result is that the drums sound different
depending on where you stand or sit. I've been told the drums sound
totally different to the drummer and audience.

My experience is with mixing post production mixing back in the late
1960's. If any group dragged in a tape with only one track for the
drums, they would be asked to re-record with 3 mics. I can clean up
the usual mess (pedal clank, stick click, etc) with noise gates and
such, but it's so much easier if the individual instruments were
recorded with a close mic (so as not to pickup sounds from other
instruments). It's a real art doing that correctly with a drum set
and really messy with an orchestra. You've only to compare a raw,
single mic/stereo recording in a concert hall, with the same concert
properly mixed in a studio.

http://homerecording.about.com/od/mixinglivesound/a/mixing_live.htm
http://homerecording.about.com/od/recordingtutorials/ht/perfectkick.htm
http://www.drum-tracks.com/NEWdrumEQ.htm

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

You've only to compare a raw,
single mic/stereo recording in a concert hall, with the same concert
properly mixed in a studio.


How did we get to preferring artificial sound construction over the
amalgamated blend of sound heard in a hall? I prefer the direct-to-
wax from the pickup horn of jazz recordings in the 1920's over anything
mixed in the studio since 1955. The big band recordings in studios
done since the 1960s sound nothing like the dance hall experience
of the 1940s (or even bands on film for that matter) in part due to
the preferences of engineers at consoles. The only legitimate
in studio music in my opinion is disco/euro-disco, techno and
synth which is an art of the mixer in large part (I'll pretend
hip hop doesn't exit).

Regards,

Michael

In article ,
Ron(UK) wrote:
Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been
in. Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and
hi-hats, and one on the bass.


That`s the classic jazz set up

Classic set up for any drum kit. The fad for using upwards of 8 mics on a
kit is very often counter-productive.

--
*Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 09:51:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Meat Plow hath wroth:

Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.
Yep, and for a good reason. The drum set covers a wide frequency
range. Bass drum is mostly at the low end of the audio spectrum,
while all the brass is near the high end. The problem is that the
lower frequency stuff is almost isotropic (radiates equally in all
directions), while the high frequency stuff is fairly directional. For
example, the snake and hat tend to radiate more up and downward than
toward the audience. The result is that the drums sound different
depending on where you stand or sit. I've been told the drums sound
totally different to the drummer and audience.

My experience is with mixing post production mixing back in the late
1960's. If any group dragged in a tape with only one track for the
drums, they would be asked to re-record with 3 mics. I can clean up
the usual mess (pedal clank, stick click, etc) with noise gates and
such, but it's so much easier if the individual instruments were
recorded with a close mic (so as not to pickup sounds from other
instruments). It's a real art doing that correctly with a drum set
and really messy with an orchestra. You've only to compare a raw,
single mic/stereo recording in a concert hall, with the same concert
properly mixed in a studio.

I've had similar experience but in a modern digital studio. One trick I've
used is to soft gate the bass guitar track attack on the bass drum to
tighten up the rhythm. Being both a drummer and bass player I understand
just how closely knit the two need to be. I love to here a band where
those two really click.


I've just got one of those Klark Technik SQ1 Dynamic 8 channel
gate/compressors, I haven't had much time to play with it, but that`s
one of the clever tricks that it`s ideal for.

Ron(UK)

Meat Plow wrote:


I remember one drummer we had in the 90's that miked both mounted toms (1
mic), his floor tom, bass, snare/hi-hats, and had an overhead for his ride
and crash cymbals. He brought his own 8 plug snake
I had the same setup in my basement when I had a kit down there.

If it`s rock n roll that`s the norm, but it`s not always necessary. Of
course rock drummers like to see lots of mikes, doesn`t necessarily
meant that they are all actually live.

Ron(UK)

In article , "Ron(UK)" wrote:
Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 09:51:23 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Meat Plow hath wroth:

Not miking the bass drum wouldn't have cut it in any band I've been in.
Minimally we used 3, one overhead, one more near the snare and hi-hats,
and one on the bass.
Yep, and for a good reason. The drum set covers a wide frequency
range. Bass drum is mostly at the low end of the audio spectrum,
while all the brass is near the high end. The problem is that the
lower frequency stuff is almost isotropic (radiates equally in all
directions), while the high frequency stuff is fairly directional. For
example, the snake and hat tend to radiate more up and downward than
toward the audience. The result is that the drums sound different
depending on where you stand or sit. I've been told the drums sound
totally different to the drummer and audience.

My experience is with mixing post production mixing back in the late
1960's. If any group dragged in a tape with only one track for the
drums, they would be asked to re-record with 3 mics. I can clean up
the usual mess (pedal clank, stick click, etc) with noise gates and
such, but it's so much easier if the individual instruments were
recorded with a close mic (so as not to pickup sounds from other
instruments). It's a real art doing that correctly with a drum set
and really messy with an orchestra. You've only to compare a raw,
single mic/stereo recording in a concert hall, with the same concert
properly mixed in a studio.

I've had similar experience but in a modern digital studio. One trick I've
used is to soft gate the bass guitar track attack on the bass drum to
tighten up the rhythm. Being both a drummer and bass player I understand
just how closely knit the two need to be. I love to here a band where
those two really click.


I've just got one of those Klark Technik SQ1 Dynamic 8 channel
gate/compressors, I haven't had much time to play with it, but that`s
one of the clever tricks that it`s ideal for.

My brother found two compressors he junked picked, asked if I could look at them.
He said I could do what I wanted. After finding out they were vintage in high
demand, I tuned them up and go tabout $1200 for them on Ebay. Just mono compressors
that seemed to be liked for doing drums. That was fun. I split with my brother.

greg

GregS wrote:


My brother found two compressors he junked picked, asked if I could look at them.
He said I could do what I wanted. After finding out they were vintage in high
demand, I tuned them up and go tabout $1200 for them on Ebay. Just mono compressors
that seemed to be liked for doing drums. That was fun. I split with my brother.

Dontcha just love it when that happens

Ron

Arfa Daily wrote in message
...

"N Cook" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

...
Hello all...

I recently installed a radio and stereo speakers in my car. The
speakers were a trashpicking find and they seem to work just fine. At
the time I wired them up, I didn't know which terminals represented +
and - on the speakers, so I took a guess and wired them both the same
way. The speakers had no marking to indicate polarity, other than a
"thin" spade lug for one terminal.

Just the other night I found the box the speakers were in. It has a
detailed wiring diagram on the side. According to the diagram I have
reversed the + and - connections on both speakers.

Over the years I've read a number of different views on the effect of
wiring speakers with reversed polarity. I've heard everything from "it
won't really matter if the speakers are both wired the same way" to
"the sound won't be as good because the speaker cone will pull inward
instead of being pushed out".

It wouldn't be hard to fix, but should I bother correcting the
polarity?

William

Do you want fixed "image" stereo or musicians "wandering around in
space"?


How do you figure that absolute phase can have any such effect ?

Arfa



I misinterpreted the wiring colours for replacing the jack plug on a set of
stereo headphones one time.
Try as an experiment, doing the same, reversing the polarity of one relative
to the other, and then try locating a soloist in the sound "image".

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/