On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 21:53:22 GMT, Rich Grise wrote:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 06:45:49 +0000, James Sweet wrote:
wrote in message
Spend a
couple of bucks more and get the mini-pneumatic die grinder. Some of
the ones I have accept Foredom collets, too.

Well you need an air compressor for one of those, a tool relatively few
people own. I use a pneumatic die grinder occasionally, but it's louder than
my Dremel and it spews out a bit of oil in use.

Sounds like you nead an oil trap next to your bench.

Good Luck!
Rich
My $12 die grinder calls for 1-2 drops of oil per use, I've never seen
oil come out of it
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

In article %AdNi.9074$Hb2.1737@trndny07,
says...

Well you need an air compressor for one of those, a tool relatively few
people own. I use a pneumatic die grinder occasionally, but it's louder
than
my Dremel and it spews out a bit of oil in use.

Sounds like you nead an oil trap next to your bench.



Well that would defeat the purpose of the oil in the first place, which is
squirted into the tool to lubricate the air motor. Perhaps you're referring
to the high speed air turbine tools? Either way unless you already have the
compressor as I did, an electric tool is far cheaper and is not tethered to
a big heavy noisy piece of equipment.

Tethered? I plumbed my house[*] for air. ;-)
[*] Places I'd likely use air tools.

--
Keith

Call Dremel . They will probably replace it free .

According to James Sweet :

wrote in message
ups.com...

[ ... ]

Plus the collets are brass and wear out in no time.

Ouch!

Good for a one or
two time use project, no substitute for a pneumatic die grinder.
Bearings suck on them, too. Whadda ya want for $6 anyway? Spend a
couple of bucks more and get the mini-pneumatic die grinder. Some of
the ones I have accept Foredom collets, too.

[ ... ]

Well you need an air compressor for one of those, a tool relatively few
people own.

I certainly do. :-)

Hmm ... this is cross-posted to the following newsgroups:

sci.electronics.basics
sci.electronics.repair
rec.crafts.metalworking
alt.engineering.electrical

Of those, the third (rec.crafts.metalworking) is likely to have a very
*high* percentage of readers who own an air compressor. The reply
suggesting a pneumatic die grinder probably came from someone in RCM who
did not notice the other newsgroups in the cross-posting, so it was
reasonable to expect that an air compressor would be present.

I use a pneumatic die grinder occasionally, but it's louder than
my Dremel and it spews out a bit of oil in use.

I forget what the application was for the Dremel (somewhere
upthread) so I don't know whether the oil is a problem or not. If
working on metal, I would suggest that the oil is probably a benefit,
not a problem.

If oil is a problem, I would second the suggestion for a
Foredom. Note that not only does it have a fairly hefty flexible shaft,
but for smaller tools (e;g. what a Dremel would be comfortable driving)
there is a handpiece with a short very flexible shaft just before it
which makes precise hand control a lot easier.

I use an ancient Foredom with the extra flexible handpiece for
tuning English concertina reeds, with a Dremel foot pedal for speed
control, from a near total stop (needed on the tiny reeds at the upper
end of the collection in a typical concertina) to near full speed (for
the lowest pitch reeds).

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to James Sweet :

[ ... ]

Either way unless you already have the
compressor as I did, an electric tool is far cheaper and is not tethered to
a big heavy noisy piece of equipment.

The big and heavy I would agree with for any compressor
adequate to drive a die grinder, but *noisy*? It may be that you have
the wrong air compressor. The oilless ones tend to be *very* noisy, but
the oil wetted ones, with a belt drive from the motor to the compressor
tends to be very quiet in comparison. Yes, there are bursts of chugging
from time to time, but no problem from my point of view at least. I
would not have one of the oilless ones in my shop.

As for heavy -- I just installed a reel fed hose on the ceiling
to allow me to reach any place in the shop where I am likely to need
air. Someday, I will probably plumb it for drops near each likely place
of use.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

The big and heavy I would agree with for any compressor
adequate to drive a die grinder, but *noisy*? It may be that you have
the wrong air compressor. The oilless ones tend to be *very* noisy, but
the oil wetted ones, with a belt drive from the motor to the compressor
tends to be very quiet in comparison. Yes, there are bursts of chugging
from time to time, but no problem from my point of view at least. I
would not have one of the oilless ones in my shop.



Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

I do have an oiled belt drive reciprocating compressor, it's a LOT quieter
than the oilless junk but it's still quite loud. Part of the problem is
where it sits in the corner, the sound is amplified and echos.

James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Regards,

Michael

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:18:08 -0400, krw wrote:
In article %AdNi.9074$Hb2.1737@trndny07,
says...

Well you need an air compressor for one of those, a tool relatively few
people own. I use a pneumatic die grinder occasionally, but it's louder
than my Dremel and it spews out a bit of oil in use.

Sounds like you nead an oil trap next to your bench.

Well that would defeat the purpose of the oil in the first place, which is
squirted into the tool to lubricate the air motor.

They all need a little oil, but most people tend to over-do it and
it gets a bit messy. Only needs a drop or two a day, for light duty.
(Or they forget to oil them, and the tool dies a quick death.)

You can install an inline mist oiler on your workbench outlet that
you use the air tools at. But then you have to be REALLY careful not
to mix your hoses used with oiled air with your 'clean' hoses, or
you'll go to paint something and wreck a paint job getting oil
(residue from inside the hoses) into the paint.

Perhaps you're referring
to the high speed air turbine tools? Either way unless you already have the
compressor as I did, an electric tool is far cheaper and is not tethered to
a big heavy noisy piece of equipment.

For a proper compressor: Big, yes. Noisy, not really, if you buy a
proper belt-drive unit where the compressor is turning under 800 RPM
or so. The little 3450 RPM direct drive pancake compressors are not
enough to run a die grinder for any usable duty time, they make more
noise than they do air.

I have the "5 HP" (really a 4, but it's enough) Husky (Campbell
Hausfeld) 2-stage 80 gallon, and it's not noisy at all when running.
The fancier compressors from Ingersoll-Rand and Quincy are even
quieter and will run practically forever (even if used a lot), but you
pay a heck of a premium for a few Db's.

And I have the lumber and a solid-core door to build a little closet
around the unit, that will make it virtually silent - just need a
small vent fan before I start enclosing it, so it doesn't cook itself
if run for long periods...

Tethered? I plumbed my house[*] for air. ;-)

[*] Places I'd likely use air tools.

Don't forget to put an outlet under the eaves or on the backside of
a framed "chimney", so the roofers have a convenient place to plug in.
Did you ever notice that you can get nice recessed "wall hydrants" for
water faucets outdoors, but nobody makes them for air?

Or a flush plate-mountable air QD fitting that would look good
inside a house? I'm just going to put the air-line drop in the
front closet, and paint the pipe when I'm done.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 00:24:43 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:

The big and heavy I would agree with for any compressor
adequate to drive a die grinder, but *noisy*? It may be that you have
the wrong air compressor. The oilless ones tend to be *very* noisy, but
the oil wetted ones, with a belt drive from the motor to the compressor
tends to be very quiet in comparison. Yes, there are bursts of chugging
from time to time, but no problem from my point of view at least. I
would not have one of the oilless ones in my shop.

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Au contraire, mon frere... ;-) It's still relevant.

You have to evict the dust bunnies from inside the gear before you
can start fixing it. And what's the easiest way to do it?...

I do have an oiled belt drive reciprocating compressor, it's a LOT quieter
than the oilless junk but it's still quite loud. Part of the problem is
where it sits in the corner, the sound is amplified and echos.

Build a sound cover around it that buts up to the wall. Plywood box
with acoustic ceiling tiles glued to the inside, and make a labyrinth
channel vent on top for air circulation that is also lined with
acoustic tile - air goes through, sound bounces off the walls and
dies.

If you really seal it tight to the wall and floor, put a second
labyrinth trap down low with a muffin fan or two for air flow.

-- Bruce --

In article ,
_ says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.

--
Keith

In article ,
lid says...
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:18:08 -0400, krw wrote:
In article %AdNi.9074$Hb2.1737@trndny07,
says...

Well you need an air compressor for one of those, a tool relatively few
people own. I use a pneumatic die grinder occasionally, but it's louder
than my Dremel and it spews out a bit of oil in use.

Sounds like you nead an oil trap next to your bench.

Well that would defeat the purpose of the oil in the first place, which is
squirted into the tool to lubricate the air motor.

They all need a little oil, but most people tend to over-do it and
it gets a bit messy. Only needs a drop or two a day, for light duty.
(Or they forget to oil them, and the tool dies a quick death.)

You can install an inline mist oiler on your workbench outlet that
you use the air tools at. But then you have to be REALLY careful not
to mix your hoses used with oiled air with your 'clean' hoses, or
you'll go to paint something and wreck a paint job getting oil
(residue from inside the hoses) into the paint.

Perhaps you're referring
to the high speed air turbine tools? Either way unless you already have the
compressor as I did, an electric tool is far cheaper and is not tethered to
a big heavy noisy piece of equipment.

For a proper compressor: Big, yes. Noisy, not really, if you buy a
proper belt-drive unit where the compressor is turning under 800 RPM
or so. The little 3450 RPM direct drive pancake compressors are not
enough to run a die grinder for any usable duty time, they make more
noise than they do air.

I have the "5 HP" (really a 4, but it's enough) Husky (Campbell
Hausfeld) 2-stage 80 gallon, and it's not noisy at all when running.
The fancier compressors from Ingersoll-Rand and Quincy are even
quieter and will run practically forever (even if used a lot), but you
pay a heck of a premium for a few Db's.

And I have the lumber and a solid-core door to build a little closet
around the unit, that will make it virtually silent - just need a
small vent fan before I start enclosing it, so it doesn't cook itself
if run for long periods...

Tethered? I plumbed my house[*] for air. ;-)

[*] Places I'd likely use air tools.

Don't forget to put an outlet under the eaves or on the backside of
a framed "chimney", so the roofers have a convenient place to plug in.
Did you ever notice that you can get nice recessed "wall hydrants" for
water faucets outdoors, but nobody makes them for air?

Because air doesn't freeze, break pipes, and otherwise cause a huge
mess?

Making the roofer's job easy isn't my intent and I certainly don't
want to climb up on the roof to install/service an air connection
that I'll never use. OTOH, we're thinking about building a house.
If we end up going that way, I was considering an air connection
inside every closet (hidden, but accessible). Running the lines in
open walls is easy enough.

Or a flush plate-mountable air QD fitting that would look good
inside a house? I'm just going to put the air-line drop in the
front closet, and paint the pipe when I'm done.

I don't think they have to look all that good of you just tuck them
in closets alongside the door opening. No one will see them there so
they don't even need to be painted. I have one in an outside closet
(outside the front door, where the entrance panel is), just because
it was a convenient place to run a line from the basement to the
garage.

--
Keith

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.



I do it all the time, never had an issue with it. One thing I have learned
though is to stay away from optical drives with the air, more than once I've
stirred up dust which settled in and ruined the optics.

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 00:24:43 +0000, James Sweet wrote:
The big and heavy I would agree with for any compressor
adequate to drive a die grinder, but *noisy*? It may be that you have
the wrong air compressor. The oilless ones tend to be *very* noisy, but
the oil wetted ones, with a belt drive from the motor to the compressor
tends to be very quiet in comparison. Yes, there are bursts of chugging
from time to time, but no problem from my point of view at least. I
would not have one of the oilless ones in my shop.

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

I do have an oiled belt drive reciprocating compressor, it's a LOT quieter
than the oilless junk but it's still quite loud. Part of the problem is
where it sits in the corner, the sound is amplified and echos.

Get a couple of pieces of egg-crate foam and glue them to the wall
behind the noisemaker. That will cut down on the focusing effect.

You might spray them with some kind of snow-flock stuff, but the
solvents could attack the foam, so check the labels and stuff.

As far as needing the oil for your grinder, maybe poke a hole
in an old sock and put it around the grinder to catch the spray?

Good Luck!
Rich

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:51 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:18:08 -0400, krw wrote:


Don't forget to put an outlet under the eaves or on the backside of
a framed "chimney", so the roofers have a convenient place to plug in.
Did you ever notice that you can get nice recessed "wall hydrants" for
water faucets outdoors, but nobody makes them for air?

Because air doesn't freeze, break pipes, and otherwise cause a huge
mess?

Making the roofer's job easy isn't my intent and I certainly don't
want to climb up on the roof to install/service an air connection
that I'll never use. OTOH, we're thinking about building a house.
If we end up going that way, I was considering an air connection
inside every closet (hidden, but accessible). Running the lines in
open walls is easy enough.

Or a flush plate-mountable air QD fitting that would look good
inside a house? I'm just going to put the air-line drop in the
front closet, and paint the pipe when I'm done.

I don't think they have to look all that good of you just tuck them
in closets alongside the door opening. No one will see them there so
they don't even need to be painted. I have one in an outside closet
(outside the front door, where the entrance panel is), just because
it was a convenient place to run a line from the basement to the
garage.
I have a QC below the brickwork above a basement window, 100' of hose
will reach anywhere on the property/house.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:



Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Can't see as it would be worse than canned air
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

krw wrote:
snip


Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.


Proper ESD controls should always be in place during disassembly
and repair; the airstream is really not an issue. Compressed
air cleaning is standard practice in computer and electronic
equipment maintenance; excess moisture in the airstream is
often a problem however when dryers are absent.

Regards,

Michael

| Gerald Miller wrote:
| krw wrote:
| Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
| things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
| than good.

| Can't see as it would be worse than canned air

Much worse. What creates the static electricity is the
relatively long path of the air using a compressor (length
of the hose and or pipe). Canned air is very short,
and static electricity has hardly any time to be
generated. _____________________________________Gerard S.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.
Low pressure air is standard procedure for cleaning out computers that
are in normal dusty condition, and after fires and disasters,
computers were routinely cleaned with a type of "dishwasher" with a
speacial cleaner, then vacuum baked dry.

Today's computers ( and almost all consumer electronis) are cheap
enough that replacement is almost as low cost as salvaging.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:43:09 -0500, "Gerard Schildberger"
wrote:

| Gerald Miller wrote:
| krw wrote:
| Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
| things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
| than good.

| Can't see as it would be worse than canned air

Much worse. What creates the static electricity is the
relatively long path of the air using a compressor (length
of the hose and or pipe). Canned air is very short,
and static electricity has hardly any time to be
generated. _____________________________________Gerard S.

And if the copper blow pipe is grounded to the chassis?
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

In article PwyNi.22$h33.5@trndny02, says...


Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.



I do it all the time, never had an issue with it. One thing I have learned
though is to stay away from optical drives with the air, more than once I've
stirred up dust which settled in and ruined the optics.

I've handled CMOS devices with bare hands/no straps too, but the
plural of anecdote isn't data. The fact is that moving air will get
a charge. If the conditions are right you can zap something.

The other problem with the high pressure/volume of a shop compressor
is physical damage. Unless you're a pig, such things shouldn't be
necessary.

--
Keith

In article , clare at
snyder.on.ca says...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.
Low pressure air is standard procedure for cleaning out computers that
are in normal dusty condition, and after fires and disasters,

130PSI @ 10CFM is not "low pressure". I see all sorts of "standard
procedures" go on by monkeys with screwdrivers.

computers were routinely cleaned with a type of "dishwasher" with a
speacial cleaner, then vacuum baked dry.

Routinely? Mine never have been. I know the Tek stuff mentioned
earlier is designed not to trap solvents and the gunk they leave
behind.

Today's computers ( and almost all consumer electronis) are cheap
enough that replacement is almost as low cost as salvaging.

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:51 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:18:08 -0400, krw wrote:


Don't forget to put an outlet under the eaves or on the backside of
a framed "chimney", so the roofers have a convenient place to plug in.
Did you ever notice that you can get nice recessed "wall hydrants" for
water faucets outdoors, but nobody makes them for air?

Because air doesn't freeze, break pipes, and otherwise cause a huge
mess?

Making the roofer's job easy isn't my intent and I certainly don't
want to climb up on the roof to install/service an air connection
that I'll never use. OTOH, we're thinking about building a house.
If we end up going that way, I was considering an air connection
inside every closet (hidden, but accessible). Running the lines in
open walls is easy enough.

Or a flush plate-mountable air QD fitting that would look good
inside a house? I'm just going to put the air-line drop in the
front closet, and paint the pipe when I'm done.

I don't think they have to look all that good of you just tuck them
in closets alongside the door opening. No one will see them there so
they don't even need to be painted. I have one in an outside closet
(outside the front door, where the entrance panel is), just because
it was a convenient place to run a line from the basement to the
garage.
I have a QC below the brickwork above a basement window, 100' of hose
will reach anywhere on the property/house.

You have a small lot. ;-) Dragging 100' of hose around is a PITA
though. I never used more than 40' to side my garage and the
compressor is in the basement.

--
Keith

On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:52:57 -0400, krw wrote:

In article , clare at
snyder.on.ca says...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.
Low pressure air is standard procedure for cleaning out computers that
are in normal dusty condition, and after fires and disasters,

130PSI @ 10CFM is not "low pressure". I see all sorts of "standard
procedures" go on by monkeys with screwdrivers.

computers were routinely cleaned with a type of "dishwasher" with a
speacial cleaner, then vacuum baked dry.

Routinely? Mine never have been. I know the Tek stuff mentioned
earlier is designed not to trap solvents and the gunk they leave
behind.

Today's computers ( and almost all consumer electronis) are cheap
enough that replacement is almost as low cost as salvaging.

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.

---
Indeed. I used to put my stuff on the floor in order to gain a
little extra desk space, but after seeing the air intakes turn black
and get clogged with whatever, they're now on my desktop and
breathing at about the same altitude as I am.


--
JF

krw wrote:

In article ,
_ says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.

--
Keith

One of the problems with blowing out electronics with high pressure air
is the ultrasonic vibrations that are set up by the air. The vibrations
can break the fine junctions on the chip itself.


John

On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:48:17 -0400, krw wrote:

In article PwyNi.22$h33.5@trndny02, says...


Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.



I do it all the time, never had an issue with it. One thing I have learned
though is to stay away from optical drives with the air, more than once I've
stirred up dust which settled in and ruined the optics.

I've handled CMOS devices with bare hands/no straps too, but the
plural of anecdote isn't data. The fact is that moving air will get
a charge. If the conditions are right you can zap something.

The other problem with the high pressure/volume of a shop compressor
is physical damage. Unless you're a pig, such things shouldn't be
necessary.


Never heard of a pressure regulator? 15psi air won't damage anything,
and except in desert conditions moisture is generally more of a
problem with shop air than static charge.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:52:57 -0400, krw wrote:

In article , clare at
snyder.on.ca says...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.
Low pressure air is standard procedure for cleaning out computers that
are in normal dusty condition, and after fires and disasters,

130PSI @ 10CFM is not "low pressure". I see all sorts of "standard
procedures" go on by monkeys with screwdrivers.

Neaver heard of a pressure regulator, I assume?

computers were routinely cleaned with a type of "dishwasher" with a
speacial cleaner, then vacuum baked dry.



Routinely? Mine never have been. I know the Tek stuff mentioned
earlier is designed not to trap solvents and the gunk they leave
behind.

I said in disaster recovery situations. After a flood or fire, for
instance. Have you ever had a computer go through a fllood or a
fire???

Several customers of mine were in the disaster cleanup business. They
ROUTINLELY clead computers and electronics i this way.
Today's computers ( and almost all consumer electronis) are cheap
enough that replacement is almost as low cost as salvaging.

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.


I alwys recommend at least 4 inches off the floor.
Again, you SELECTIVELY read. The "dishwasher" was used for cleanup
after fire and flood damage.

One of the WORST culprits for screwing up electronis today is
CIGARETTE SMOKE.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

John wrote:

snip

One of the problems with blowing out electronics with high pressure air
is the ultrasonic vibrations that are set up by the air. The vibrations
can break the fine junctions on the chip itself.


Huh? A standard cleaning protocol involved immersion in an ultrasonic
freon bath, now replaced by other less-inert solvents; this involved
considerably more sonic power than that produced by an air nozzle.
Certainly one must exercise care when cleaning around delicate parts
such as fine-wire coils without encapsulation, paper parts, etc., but
by and large there is little risk in pressurized air cleaning (120 psi)
and IMHO the benefits far outweigh any small risks. I've been doing
it for far more years than I care to admit with excellent results on
industrial, military and consumer electronics. I have also had very
good results using high-pressure hot detergent and water for difficult
greasy accumulations; the cleaner is much like a dentist's tool or
a 'Water Pic' rather than the familiar domestic pressure washer.

The key in wet cleaning of electronics is a proper bake-out protocol
to insure that parts (such as transformers) with high-potential
connections are dry internally to prevent breakdown before applying
power.

Regards,

Michael

On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:48:17 -0400, krw wrote:

In article PwyNi.22$h33.5@trndny02, says...


Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.



I do it all the time, never had an issue with it. One thing I have learned
though is to stay away from optical drives with the air, more than once I've
stirred up dust which settled in and ruined the optics.

I've handled CMOS devices with bare hands/no straps too, but the
plural of anecdote isn't data. The fact is that moving air will get
a charge. If the conditions are right you can zap something.

I guess most of us have handled CMOS in this fashion, and I did so
myself until made aware that failure rates of such treated equipment
was much higher than good procedure.

As a test, I directly applied standard 5kv 1/50 impulses to 800 PIV
diodes, and found that it was simple to get measurable change in
characteristic, but usually took several applications to produce an
actually unuseable diode.

So the warning is there, that you may not stop the device from
working, but it may not be the same as when the manufacturer provided
it to you, and certainly I would safely guarantee that any change will
not be for an improvement..

Peter Dettmann

"krw" wrote in message
t...
In article , clare at
snyder.on.ca says...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep
this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of
compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for
shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to
me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.
Low pressure air is standard procedure for cleaning out computers that
are in normal dusty condition, and after fires and disasters,

130PSI @ 10CFM is not "low pressure". I see all sorts of "standard
procedures" go on by monkeys with screwdrivers.


130 PSI? I usually set mine to around 40 PSI for blowing dust off things.
Any decent compressor will have a variable pressure regulator.

clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

Never heard of a pressure regulator? 15psi air won't damage anything,
and except in desert conditions moisture is generally more of a
problem with shop air than static charge.


I suppose you've never heard of a special nozzle made for
electronics. It has a radioactive isotope to prevent static problems.
Microdyne leased two of them for the production floor, because the
manufacturer didn't sell them.

Central Florida isn't a desert, but I suppose you've never seen a
commercial air compressor with a dryer?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

krw wrote:

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.


If you install a bigger fan it will either remove all of the cat's
hair, or suck it into the computer. ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

James Sweet wrote:

130 PSI? I usually set mine to around 40 PSI for blowing dust off things.
Any decent compressor will have a variable pressure regulator.


I prefer to put a mini regulator and gauge by whatever tool I'm
using, to get a constant pressure.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
krw wrote:

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.


If you install a bigger fan it will either remove all of the cat's
hair, or suck it into the computer. ;-)

I don't think there's room for my cat inside my computer ;-)

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

charles wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
krw wrote:

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.

If you install a bigger fan it will either remove all of the cat's
hair, or suck it into the computer. ;-)

I don't think there's room for my cat inside my computer ;-)


One of my tower cases HAD to sit on the desk, because it was taller
than the desk. It had 12 drive bays, and room for several cats.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

In article ,
says...
On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:52:57 -0400, krw wrote:

In article , clare at
snyder.on.ca says...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.
Low pressure air is standard procedure for cleaning out computers that
are in normal dusty condition, and after fires and disasters,

130PSI @ 10CFM is not "low pressure". I see all sorts of "standard
procedures" go on by monkeys with screwdrivers.

computers were routinely cleaned with a type of "dishwasher" with a
speacial cleaner, then vacuum baked dry.

Routinely? Mine never have been. I know the Tek stuff mentioned
earlier is designed not to trap solvents and the gunk they leave
behind.

Today's computers ( and almost all consumer electronis) are cheap
enough that replacement is almost as low cost as salvaging.

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.

---
Indeed. I used to put my stuff on the floor in order to gain a
little extra desk space, but after seeing the air intakes turn black
and get clogged with whatever, they're now on my desktop and
breathing at about the same altitude as I am.

No matter how big my desk is (or how many) there is never enough
space on it[*]. I generally put the towers on a shelf beside the
desk. Even a foot off the ground is enough to keep them from
constantly vacuuming the floor.
[*] It seems seems to be a fundamental law of the universe that all
horizontal surfaces will be full of stuff.

--
Keith

In article , clare at
snyder.on.ca says...
On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 17:52:57 -0400, krw wrote:

In article , clare at
snyder.on.ca says...
On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 17:58:50 -0400, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
James Sweet wrote:

snip

Ah crap, I didn't notice the crossposting until now, I won't keep this
thread going beyond this, I thought I was only replying to
sci.electronics.repair which is something that rarely requires air.

Not to sound trollish, but one of my pet peeves is the lack of compressed
air capability in electronics (and formerly computer) repair shops;
cleanliness is next to godliness in equipment maintenance and for shops
not to at least use compressed air to clean dirty customer gear is to me
unconscionable (when needed I would expect hot high-pressure non-ionic
detergent cleaning as well).

Static electricity and electronics don't mix, not to mention breaking
things. Using a compressor to blow out computers may do more harm
than good.

Our regional Tektronix repair depot _routinely_ hot-washed and baked
instruments that were brought in for repair.

Quite a different thing, though I wouldn't do this either, unless the
equipment was made for it.
Low pressure air is standard procedure for cleaning out computers that
are in normal dusty condition, and after fires and disasters,

130PSI @ 10CFM is not "low pressure". I see all sorts of "standard
procedures" go on by monkeys with screwdrivers.

Neaver heard of a pressure regulator, I assume?

I guess they haven't. Static *is* still a problem.

computers were routinely cleaned with a type of "dishwasher" with a
speacial cleaner, then vacuum baked dry.



Routinely? Mine never have been. I know the Tek stuff mentioned
earlier is designed not to trap solvents and the gunk they leave
behind.

I said in disaster recovery situations. After a flood or fire, for
instance. Have you ever had a computer go through a fllood or a
fire???

No, but if it ever were I'd simply salvage the data off the disk and
replace the hardware. I can't believe anyone would spend real money
to salvage *cheap* hardware, particularly an insurance company.

Several customers of mine were in the disaster cleanup business. They
ROUTINLELY clead computers and electronics i this way.

Not that I don't believe you, but...

Today's computers ( and almost all consumer electronis) are cheap
enough that replacement is almost as low cost as salvaging.

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.


I alwys recommend at least 4 inches off the floor.
Again, you SELECTIVELY read. The "dishwasher" was used for cleanup
after fire and flood damage.

One of the WORST culprits for screwing up electronis today is
CIGARETTE SMOKE.

Shouldn't be too bad today. Twenty years ago, when people smoked in
office buildings... Even so, hardware is cheap. Labor isn't.

--
Keith

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:

I'll agree there. If it's going to get that dirty in a couple of
years, perhaps one ought to clean house a little more often. OTOH,
I learned not to put towers directly on the floor. They make good
cat-hair vacuums.


If you install a bigger fan it will either remove all of the cat's
hair, or suck it into the computer. ;-)

"It" being the cat, I assume you mean. ...makes too much noise. ;-)

--
Keith

In article ,
krw wrote:



[*] It seems seems to be a fundamental law of the universe that all
horizontal surfaces will be full of stuff.

Thank god for gravity, or the vertical surfaces would be equally
cluttered.

msg wrote:

John wrote:

snip

One of the problems with blowing out electronics with high pressure air
is the ultrasonic vibrations that are set up by the air. The vibrations
can break the fine junctions on the chip itself.


Huh? A standard cleaning protocol involved immersion in an ultrasonic
freon bath, now replaced by other less-inert solvents; this involved
considerably more sonic power than that produced by an air nozzle.
Certainly one must exercise care when cleaning around delicate parts
such as fine-wire coils without encapsulation, paper parts, etc., but
by and large there is little risk in pressurized air cleaning (120 psi)
and IMHO the benefits far outweigh any small risks. I've been doing
it for far more years than I care to admit with excellent results on
industrial, military and consumer electronics. I have also had very
good results using high-pressure hot detergent and water for difficult
greasy accumulations; the cleaner is much like a dentist's tool or
a 'Water Pic' rather than the familiar domestic pressure washer.

The key in wet cleaning of electronics is a proper bake-out protocol
to insure that parts (such as transformers) with high-potential
connections are dry internally to prevent breakdown before applying
power.

Regards,

Michael



On older circuit boards when ic's were first introduced it was not
recommended to use high pressure air on the boards. One of the main
failure points on early chips was the bonding of the leads to the chip.
This has since been solved but I still remember having boards fail
after they were blown off with high pressure air.



John

john wrote:

snip

On older circuit boards when ic's were first introduced it was not
recommended to use high pressure air on the boards. One of the main
failure points on early chips was the bonding of the leads to the chip.
This has since been solved but I still remember having boards fail
after they were blown off with high pressure air.

Interesting. What package types were susceptible to this (or did it
matter)? Metal can TO-x ICs seemed to be the most reliable (RTL, HLL,
some DTL, etc.) but I found a lot of early ceramic packages suffered
from bad seals and permitted fungi to enter and grow inside (this
in equipment that had never been wet, just from operating
environmental conditions). These parts seemed also to lack proper
passivation internally.

Regards,

Michael