Here's the next item on my "to-fix" list while home for the holidays...

I have before me a Motorola E815 cell phone which will not charge. The
battery is fine, just the phone won't make a connection to the charger.
I found an old LG cell phone with battery, which works fine.

Since every single cell phone I've ever seen uses a 3.7V Li-Ion
battery, and since I don't have a programmable voltage supply with me,
I figured I could use the LG cell phone to charge the Motorola battery.
The LG cell phone and its battery have 4 contacts:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

and the Motorola cell phone has 4 contacts as well:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

I figured I could just connect the +/- terminals of the LG phone to
those of the Motorola battery, and the Positive terminals together, and
then the LG phone would see it has a drained battery and merrily charge
it up.

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

Thanks,

Dan

Dan Lenski wrote:
Here's the next item on my "to-fix" list while home for the holidays...

I have before me a Motorola E815 cell phone which will not charge. The
battery is fine, just the phone won't make a connection to the charger.
I found an old LG cell phone with battery, which works fine.

Since every single cell phone I've ever seen uses a 3.7V Li-Ion
battery, and since I don't have a programmable voltage supply with me,
I figured I could use the LG cell phone to charge the Motorola battery.
The LG cell phone and its battery have 4 contacts:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

and the Motorola cell phone has 4 contacts as well:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

I figured I could just connect the +/- terminals of the LG phone to
those of the Motorola battery, and the Positive terminals together, and
then the LG phone would see it has a drained battery and merrily charge
it up.

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

Thanks,

Hi Dan...

It's for your own protection, I'd recommend not trying to defeat it.

Take care, and happy holidays.

Ken

Ken Weitzel wrote:
Hi Dan...

It's for your own protection, I'd recommend not trying to defeat it.

Take care, and happy holidays.

Ken

Thanks Ken, but I don't need any protection :-) I have a long history
of doing things with my electronics that they were never meant to do,
and it's worked well for me.

It's ridiculous that a cell phone demands a particular brand of
battery, considering that essentially all cell phones use 3.7V LiIon
batteries which differ only in capacity and shape. Plus I don't really
care about protecting the phone, since I only want to use it as a
charger for this battery.

I'm wondering if the "genuine battery detection" is something trivial
like "connect a 100k resistor between the mystery contact and ground"
or something complicated involving a microcontroller in the battery
that uses some serial protocol to communicate a message back and forth.

Dan

Dan Lenski wrote:
Ken Weitzel wrote:
Hi Dan...

It's for your own protection, I'd recommend not trying to defeat it.

Take care, and happy holidays.

Ken

Thanks Ken, but I don't need any protection :-) I have a long history
of doing things with my electronics that they were never meant to do,
and it's worked well for me.

It's ridiculous that a cell phone demands a particular brand of
battery, considering that essentially all cell phones use 3.7V LiIon
batteries which differ only in capacity and shape. Plus I don't really
care about protecting the phone, since I only want to use it as a
charger for this battery.

I'm wondering if the "genuine battery detection" is something trivial
like "connect a 100k resistor between the mystery contact and ground"
or something complicated involving a microcontroller in the battery
that uses some serial protocol to communicate a message back and forth.

Hi Dan...

Not so sure that we don't need a bit of protection... thinking of the
exploding and burning batteries in laptops recently... third party
and counterfeit batteries are out there, and it won't be long before
making them with small capacity and mis-marking them, so...

Anyway, I have no idea, other than guesses. Jamie suggest that it might
be a serial connection to the phone. That sounds good, if LG doesn't
want you to buy any of their competitors products, but might be
expensive to implement.

I'm wondering if it might not be as simple as a temperature detector...
something as easy as a pair of diodes back to back. Or maybe even a
thermal fuse.

Another thought is if someone here has a battery that's dead beyond
any use at all, perhaps they'd open it up and see what's in there?

Wish I knew more.

Take care.

Ken

"Ken Weitzel" wrote in message
news:kNFjh.516628$1T2.351204@pd7urf2no...
Dan Lenski wrote:
Ken Weitzel wrote:
Hi Dan...

It's for your own protection, I'd recommend not trying to defeat it.

Take care, and happy holidays.

Ken

Thanks Ken, but I don't need any protection :-) I have a long history
of doing things with my electronics that they were never meant to do,
and it's worked well for me.

It's ridiculous that a cell phone demands a particular brand of
battery, considering that essentially all cell phones use 3.7V LiIon
batteries which differ only in capacity and shape. Plus I don't really
care about protecting the phone, since I only want to use it as a
charger for this battery.

I'm wondering if the "genuine battery detection" is something trivial
like "connect a 100k resistor between the mystery contact and ground"
or something complicated involving a microcontroller in the battery
that uses some serial protocol to communicate a message back and forth.

Hi Dan...

Not so sure that we don't need a bit of protection... thinking of the
exploding and burning batteries in laptops recently

(snip) the rest...

Those burning laptop batteries were made by Sony.
Sony is a four letter word.

Dan Lenski wrote:

Ken Weitzel wrote:
Hi Dan...

It's for your own protection, I'd recommend not trying to defeat it.

Take care, and happy holidays.

Ken

Thanks Ken, but I don't need any protection :-) I have a long history
of doing things with my electronics that they were never meant to do,
and it's worked well for me.

It's ridiculous that a cell phone demands a particular brand of
battery, considering that essentially all cell phones use 3.7V LiIon
batteries which differ only in capacity and shape. Plus I don't really
care about protecting the phone, since I only want to use it as a
charger for this battery.


Just because they are the same voltage doesn't mean that they use the
same cells inside. Maxim and others make ICs for this application.


I'm wondering if the "genuine battery detection" is something trivial
like "connect a 100k resistor between the mystery contact and ground"
or something complicated involving a microcontroller in the battery
that uses some serial protocol to communicate a message back and forth.

Dan


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Dan Lenski wrote:

Here's the next item on my "to-fix" list while home for the holidays...

I have before me a Motorola E815 cell phone which will not charge. The
battery is fine, just the phone won't make a connection to the charger.
I found an old LG cell phone with battery, which works fine.

Since every single cell phone I've ever seen uses a 3.7V Li-Ion
battery, and since I don't have a programmable voltage supply with me,
I figured I could use the LG cell phone to charge the Motorola battery.
The LG cell phone and its battery have 4 contacts:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

and the Motorola cell phone has 4 contacts as well:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

I figured I could just connect the +/- terminals of the LG phone to
those of the Motorola battery, and the Positive terminals together, and
then the LG phone would see it has a drained battery and merrily charge
it up.

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

Thanks,

Dan

put a scope on the mystery leg, you'll most likely see a serial stream
coming out of it.
try blocking off that leg.


--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5

"Jamie" t wrote in message
...

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

Some inkjet cartridges are chipped to prevent refilling or cloning. Could be
a similar nasty trick.

Dan Lenski wrote:
Here's the next item on my "to-fix" list while home for the holidays...

I have before me a Motorola E815 cell phone which will not charge. The
battery is fine, just the phone won't make a connection to the charger.
I found an old LG cell phone with battery, which works fine.

Since every single cell phone I've ever seen uses a 3.7V Li-Ion
battery, and since I don't have a programmable voltage supply with me,
I figured I could use the LG cell phone to charge the Motorola battery.
The LG cell phone and its battery have 4 contacts:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

and the Motorola cell phone has 4 contacts as well:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

I figured I could just connect the +/- terminals of the LG phone to
those of the Motorola battery, and the Positive terminals together, and
then the LG phone would see it has a drained battery and merrily charge
it up.

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

Thanks,

Dan


http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm

bob


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Many of the manufactures are starting to make their products in a manner to
have increased safety. Inside of many of the dedicated batteries, the
manufactures are using chip technology to not allow them to be charged if
they are not the original product. The manufactures are trying to protect
themselves and the end users, regardless of the knowledge of the person
trying to defeat its purpose.

--

JANA
_____


"Dan Lenski" wrote in message
ups.com...
Here's the next item on my "to-fix" list while home for the holidays...

I have before me a Motorola E815 cell phone which will not charge. The
battery is fine, just the phone won't make a connection to the charger.
I found an old LG cell phone with battery, which works fine.

Since every single cell phone I've ever seen uses a 3.7V Li-Ion
battery, and since I don't have a programmable voltage supply with me,
I figured I could use the LG cell phone to charge the Motorola battery.
The LG cell phone and its battery have 4 contacts:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

and the Motorola cell phone has 4 contacts as well:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

I figured I could just connect the +/- terminals of the LG phone to
those of the Motorola battery, and the Positive terminals together, and
then the LG phone would see it has a drained battery and merrily charge
it up.

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

Thanks,

Dan

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 01:30:36 -0500, JANA wrote:


Many of the manufactures are starting to make their products in a manner to
have increased safety. Inside of many of the dedicated batteries, the
manufactures are using chip technology to not allow them to be charged if
they are not the original product. The manufactures are trying to protect
themselves and the end users, regardless of the knowledge of the person
trying to defeat its purpose.

The only thing they're protecting is their profit margin.

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...

The only thing they're protecting is their profit margin.

Like the ink for inkjet printers - it's more expensive than the finest
champagne.

Homer J Simpson wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...


The only thing they're protecting is their profit margin.


Like the ink for inkjet printers - it's more expensive than the finest
champagne.





Don't get me started on inkjet cartridges, at least with batteries
there's a fire hazard.

AZ Nomad hath wroth:

The only thing they're protecting is their profit margin.

No, they're protecting themselves against liability issues.
Personally, I don't mind paying a bit extra to avoid a potential fire
or problem.

Note that the defective Sony batteries were caused by microscopic
impurities in manufacturing.

There's a good article on the safety of LiIon and LiPo batteries in
the current issue of Nuts and Volts, but it's not online.

Meltdown is sorta fun, but not inside my cell phone or laptop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3o_2mwRPdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCrzL82fiJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isUHViMaLEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cmq5H1ziOE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...36960714830130

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 13:09:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


AZ Nomad hath wroth:

The only thing they're protecting is their profit margin.

No, they're protecting themselves against liability issues.
Personally, I don't mind paying a bit extra to avoid a potential fire
or problem.

Note that the defective Sony batteries were caused by microscopic
impurities in manufacturing.
bull****.

If the battery explodes and the phone is operating within specs, it is
the batteries fault. Not the carrying case. Not the owner. Not the
clothing being worn by the cell phone owner. Not the power lines leading
to the house where the phone was charged.

snip irrelevent videos

AZ Nomad hath wroth:

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 13:09:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

AZ Nomad hath wroth:
The only thing they're protecting is their profit margin.

No, they're protecting themselves against liability issues.
Personally, I don't mind paying a bit extra to avoid a potential fire
or problem.

Note that the defective Sony batteries were caused by microscopic
impurities in manufacturing.

bull****.

Can you offer a better explanation of what went wrong with the Sony
batteries? I'm only recycling what I've read on the internet which
also notes that manufacturers are switching to metal oxide insulators
that will not conduct heat or cause a fire. Perhaps you have inside
information? URL's that offer explanations other than crud imbedded
in the polyolefin insulators are acceptable.

If the battery explodes and the phone is operating within specs, it is
the batteries fault. Not the carrying case. Not the owner. Not the
clothing being worn by the cell phone owner. Not the power lines leading
to the house where the phone was charged.

Correct. I have the honor of suing the manufacturer in China if my
house burns down as a result of having the cell phone catch fire in
the charger. Chances of collecting damages is about zero. Granted,
the risk of fire is very low, but I'm not interested in proving the
point.

snip irrelevent videos

How about counterfeit battery incidents? Is that sufficiently
relevent?
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04559.html
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/2006/2006_41_e.html
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=7075&pq-locale=en_US
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/28/tech/main652128.shtml
http://www.havocscope.com/Counterfeit/batteries.htm
http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_Camera/counterfeit_batteries.asp
http://www.nema.org/gov/anti-counterfeiting/upload/Counterfeit%20White%20Paper_ver8.htm
(Lots more. Just search Google for "counterfeit batteries")

NEC also makes counterfeit battery detector chips:
http://necel.com/news/en/archive/0407/0601.html



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article . com,
(known to some as Dan Lenski) scribed...

snippety

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

I was reading about this in the industry trade rags (Electronic
Design, EETimes) this last summer.

Unfortunately, it's not likely to be easy to defeat. The system I
came across was described as having a custom IC (a microcontroller plus
a serial port) built right into the battery. Said microcontroller is
mask-programmed with a unique and encrypted ID at the time of
manufacture, and it enters into a complex handshaking sequence with the
phone's innards before the phone will accept it and power up.

I'm not saying it can't be cracked -- Anything electronic can be.
However, the kinds of resources and test gear you'd need to do it would
exceed, by many orders of magnitude, the cost of a genuine battery
gotten from, say, Greed-bay.

I used to think the counterfeit detectors were a bad idea. However,
given all the low-quality knock-off batteries that have exploded and
burned in recent years, some causing nasty injuries, I'm not so sure.

Happy tweaking.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR)
http://www.bluefeathertech.com -- kyrrin a/t bluefeathertech d-o=t calm
"Salvadore Dali's computer has surreal ports..."

On 24 Dec 2006 14:46:38 -0800, "Dan Lenski" put
finger to keyboard and composed:

Here's the next item on my "to-fix" list while home for the holidays...

I have before me a Motorola E815 cell phone which will not charge. The
battery is fine, just the phone won't make a connection to the charger.
I found an old LG cell phone with battery, which works fine.

Since every single cell phone I've ever seen uses a 3.7V Li-Ion
battery, and since I don't have a programmable voltage supply with me,
I figured I could use the LG cell phone to charge the Motorola battery.
The LG cell phone and its battery have 4 contacts:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

and the Motorola cell phone has 4 contacts as well:

| | | |
NEG NEG MYSTERY POS

I figured I could just connect the +/- terminals of the LG phone to
those of the Motorola battery, and the Positive terminals together, and
then the LG phone would see it has a drained battery and merrily charge
it up.

Not so! When I did this, the LG phone said "Use genuine battery!" and
refused to charge it. WTF?!?! It seems like there's some kind of
"counterfeit detection" circuit in the battery to make it harder to
make cheap knockoff batteries. I assume this comes from the "mystery"
contact. Is there information somewhere on how to fool this idiotic
counterfeit detection circuit?

Thanks,

Dan

Is it possible to swap the electronic innards? If so, is there any
reason why it would not be safe to do so? Wouldn't the cell
chemistries be identical?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.