Productivity
David Brown wrote: Eeyore wrote: Fred Bloggs wrote: Don Bowey wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson " the US figure is boosted by Americans working more hours per year than workers in most developed countries." That's why they are MORE productive, dumb ass. Productivity is measured as output per hour. No it's not, it is GDP per unit of workforce pure calendar year. Go back to your bingo. I see 'per unit of time' here. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/productivity Nothing about years whatever. Hours makes more sense given that wages are commonly paid according to an hourly rate. Graham Look, it's quite simple - the particular definition of productivity used for the report is the one given in the article: "The ILO productivity figure is found by dividing a country's total output in a year by the number of people employed." That's no measure of productivity I'm familiar with. The hourly rate is critically important. It's the only one I think counts for reasons I've made clear. Did you actually read the article, or did you just skim it until you could find something that made the USA look slightly less good? If you want to do some America-bashing based on this article or report, then you are going to have to go off at a bit of a tangent - try to find out how much of that productivity translates to dollars in the median workers' pocket, or their disposable income, for example. Or maybe you can get somewhere by looking at different industry sectors - perhaps the US figures are skewed by very high productivity in the financial services sector. But as the report stands, the title says it all. If you like working 50+ hour weeks, fine. Graham |
Productivity
On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:28:24 -0500, flipper wrote:
No, we're talking about sales tax on his services, not a tax on his income, What in the f*** is the difference? Taxing services is taxing income. Where do you get your income? From performing a service for your employer, right? Tax that, and we're right back into the abyss of the income tax, which caused the problems in the first place. Thanks, Rich |
Productivity
Eeyore wrote:
David Brown wrote: Eeyore wrote: Fred Bloggs wrote: Don Bowey wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson " the US figure is boosted by Americans working more hours per year than workers in most developed countries." That's why they are MORE productive, dumb ass. Productivity is measured as output per hour. No it's not, it is GDP per unit of workforce pure calendar year. Go back to your bingo. I see 'per unit of time' here. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/productivity Nothing about years whatever. Hours makes more sense given that wages are commonly paid according to an hourly rate. Graham Look, it's quite simple - the particular definition of productivity used for the report is the one given in the article: "The ILO productivity figure is found by dividing a country's total output in a year by the number of people employed." That's no measure of productivity I'm familiar with. The hourly rate is critically important. It's the only one I think counts for reasons I've made clear. The hourly rate is one of the important measurements, but it's not the only one. The yearly rate (or anything else averaged over time) is also important because that's important from the viewpoint of the employer. And in this thread, it's important because that's what the article was discussing. Did you actually read the article, or did you just skim it until you could find something that made the USA look slightly less good? If you want to do some America-bashing based on this article or report, then you are going to have to go off at a bit of a tangent - try to find out how much of that productivity translates to dollars in the median workers' pocket, or their disposable income, for example. Or maybe you can get somewhere by looking at different industry sectors - perhaps the US figures are skewed by very high productivity in the financial services sector. But as the report stands, the title says it all. If you like working 50+ hour weeks, fine. If you want to argue that working 40 hour weeks with 5 weeks paid holiday is better than working 50 hour weeks with 2 weeks holiday, that's fine by me - just as long as you don't make incorrect claims about the report(s) under discussion. Graham |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm Graham Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries. Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and income. |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:02:33 +0200, David Brown
wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm Graham Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries. Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and income. I think Americans work longer hours because we still have some entrepreneurial spirit left in us. We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss". Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation. Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America? ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:02:33 +0200, David Brown wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm Graham Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries. Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and income. I think Americans work longer hours because we still have some entrepreneurial spirit left in us. Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a concept ... We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss". And some of us ultimately get there. Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation. Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz in Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards larger corporations. BTDT. Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America? Tell me about it ;-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
David Brown wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm Graham Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries. Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and income. Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
David Brown wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm Graham Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries. Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and income. Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity
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Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote: On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:02:33 +0200, David Brown wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm Graham Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries. Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and income. I think Americans work longer hours because we still have some entrepreneurial spirit left in us. Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a concept ... I enjoy my work - but I enjoy spending time with my family too. Here I have plenty of opportunity for both. But if my job had been making hamburgers or sweeping the street, I'm not sure I'd be keen on longer hours than necessary just for the fun of it. We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss". And some of us ultimately get there. And some of us don't want to get there - I'm happier working in a small company than I would be trying to run one myself. It all depends on what you like doing - I'd rather not have to deal with finances, or customers, or that sort of nonsense. Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation. Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz in Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards larger corporations. BTDT. My boss (company founder, and owner of many of the shares) has made a fair amount of money out of his business. But perhaps Europeans (or at least Norwegians) don't see money as a goal in itself - I'm perfectly happy with my income exceeding my expenditure. While I'm not likely to say no to a pay rise (I only did so once), I'd not want to pay for it in stomach ulcers. Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America? Tell me about it ;-) I can't understand the appeal myself - but I guess there are many sorts of people around. |
Productivity
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 21:28:27 +0200, David Brown
wrote: Eeyore wrote: David Brown wrote: Eeyore wrote: Fred Bloggs wrote: Don Bowey wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson " the US figure is boosted by Americans working more hours per year than workers in most developed countries." That's why they are MORE productive, dumb ass. Productivity is measured as output per hour. No it's not, it is GDP per unit of workforce pure calendar year. Go back to your bingo. I see 'per unit of time' here. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/productivity Nothing about years whatever. Hours makes more sense given that wages are commonly paid according to an hourly rate. Graham Look, it's quite simple - the particular definition of productivity used for the report is the one given in the article: "The ILO productivity figure is found by dividing a country's total output in a year by the number of people employed." That's no measure of productivity I'm familiar with. The hourly rate is critically important. It's the only one I think counts for reasons I've made clear. The hourly rate is one of the important measurements, but it's not the only one. The yearly rate (or anything else averaged over time) is also important because that's important from the viewpoint of the employer. And in this thread, it's important because that's what the article was discussing. I thought it was discussing "labor productivity". The accepted definition of this term is "average real output per hour of labor". Therefore, the number of hours worked per capita versus net profit defines labor productivity in real terms. |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote: David Brown wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Eeyore wrote: Jim Thompson wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6976084.stm ...Jim Thompson However, Americans work more hours per year than workers in most other developed economies. This is why, measured as value added per hour worked, Norway has the highest labour productivity level (US$ 37.99), followed by the United States (US$ 35.63) and France (US$ 35.08). http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_...3976/index.htm Graham Americans work more because they aren't lazy, like other countries. Norwegians are not lazy either - they work hard while they are at work, generating enough income (for themselves, their employers, and the state), so that they don't have to work more. Working longer hours is not a good thing in itself. Europeans generally see work as a part of their lives, but not the most important part, and thus prefer shorter hours and longer holidays over greater production and income. Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher income people). because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) Agreed. The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down. I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of working life, but said he didn't like it. |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
David Brown wrote:
[...] Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a concept ... I enjoy my work - but I enjoy spending time with my family too. Here I have plenty of opportunity for both. But if my job had been making hamburgers or sweeping the street, I'm not sure I'd be keen on longer hours than necessary just for the fun of it. True. One has to put in the sweat of studying hard before becoming an engineer. But that's similar in most other professions. Without the work and sometimes hardship to obtain a good education people end up in not so fun jobs. We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss". And some of us ultimately get there. And some of us don't want to get there - I'm happier working in a small company than I would be trying to run one myself. It all depends on what you like doing - I'd rather not have to deal with finances, or customers, or that sort of nonsense. Yep, you'll be the marketeer, finance guy, chief engineer, QC guy, grief counselor and so on all in one person. Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation. Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz in Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards larger corporations. BTDT. My boss (company founder, and owner of many of the shares) has made a fair amount of money out of his business. But perhaps Europeans (or at least Norwegians) don't see money as a goal in itself - I'm perfectly happy with my income exceeding my expenditure. While I'm not likely to say no to a pay rise (I only did so once), I'd not want to pay for it in stomach ulcers. Americans like the prospects of early retirement when they sell their home and buy a huge bus that now becomes their main residence. A thought that drives the sheer fright into the eyes of most Europeans. Then, some have so much fun at work that they keep working. The weirdest scenario I saw was a guy in final assembly. He was almost 80, said that they don't really need any more money but that his wife told him he'd either return to work or she'd hit the highway, never to be seen again. Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America? Tell me about it ;-) I can't understand the appeal myself - but I guess there are many sorts of people around. With me it's the other way around. I can't understand how someone cannot feel the appeal ;-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
David Brown wrote:
[...] Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher income people). People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves never being able to really retire. However, those problems are self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy, and I like the one here in the US better. because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) Agreed. The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down. I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of working life, but said he didn't like it. Those words could have come from my father :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 18:06:33 -0500, flipper wrote:
On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 19:02:42 GMT, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian Where do you get your income? From performing a service for your employer, right? And I pay tax on that whether I buy a blessed thing or not. Yes, exactly, and that is the problem we're attempting to solve. Thanks, Rich |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Joerg wrote:
David Brown wrote: [...] Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher income people). People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves never being able to really retire. However, those problems are self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy, and I like the one here in the US better. because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) Agreed. The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down. I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of working life, but said he didn't like it. Those words could have come from my father :-) I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time. In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about what was happening in the real world of Electronics. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote: David Brown wrote: [...] Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher income people). People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves never being able to really retire. However, those problems are self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy, and I like the one here in the US better. because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) Agreed. The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down. I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of working life, but said he didn't like it. Those words could have come from my father :-) I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time. In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about what was happening in the real world of Electronics. An engineer at a client hung up his hat and became a fulltime teacher. Taking a 50% cut in income, he said that this was his way of giving back to society. Hats off to the guy, that takes guts. Especially since he's got four kids to bring through college. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Joerg wrote:
David Brown wrote: [...] Indeed. Work can actually be fun. I am actually looking forward to Monday when I'll get to fire up the old CAD again. Fun, wow, what a concept ... I enjoy my work - but I enjoy spending time with my family too. Here I have plenty of opportunity for both. But if my job had been making hamburgers or sweeping the street, I'm not sure I'd be keen on longer hours than necessary just for the fun of it. True. One has to put in the sweat of studying hard before becoming an engineer. But that's similar in most other professions. Without the work and sometimes hardship to obtain a good education people end up in not so fun jobs. We want "to get ahead", own our own business, be "boss". And some of us ultimately get there. And some of us don't want to get there - I'm happier working in a small company than I would be trying to run one myself. It all depends on what you like doing - I'd rather not have to deal with finances, or customers, or that sort of nonsense. Yep, you'll be the marketeer, finance guy, chief engineer, QC guy, grief counselor and so on all in one person. I'm already the fpga guy, the high speed digital guy, the assembly programming guy, the C expert, the PC software guy, the Python guy, the web server guy, the email guy, the IT guy, the English language expert, and a dozen other hats - that's enough for me. Europeans know there's nothing to gain but more taxation. Same here. The brackets don't exactly motivate. To run a smaller biz in Europe is tougher though, that continent is more geared towards larger corporations. BTDT. My boss (company founder, and owner of many of the shares) has made a fair amount of money out of his business. But perhaps Europeans (or at least Norwegians) don't see money as a goal in itself - I'm perfectly happy with my income exceeding my expenditure. While I'm not likely to say no to a pay rise (I only did so once), I'd not want to pay for it in stomach ulcers. Americans like the prospects of early retirement when they sell their home and buy a huge bus that now becomes their main residence. A thought that drives the sheer fright into the eyes of most Europeans. It certainly does not appeal to me! Then, some have so much fun at work that they keep working. The weirdest scenario I saw was a guy in final assembly. He was almost 80, said that they don't really need any more money but that his wife told him he'd either return to work or she'd hit the highway, never to be seen again. That's good motivation. Why do you think there's a constant trooping of Europeans to America? Tell me about it ;-) I can't understand the appeal myself - but I guess there are many sorts of people around. With me it's the other way around. I can't understand how someone cannot feel the appeal ;-) I like the more social democratic Norwegian society. I can take care of the things I am interested in (such as embedded systems development), and let the state take care of things like health care, schools, and pensions. I like the idea that when you have troubles, you can get help - both from the state, and from elsewhere (such as your employer). I like the idea that no one much minds who you are or how much you earn - there is almost no division on class or wealth lines here. |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:45:19 GMT, Joerg
wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Joerg wrote: David Brown wrote: [...] Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher income people). People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves never being able to really retire. However, those problems are self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy, and I like the one here in the US better. because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) Agreed. The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down. I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of working life, but said he didn't like it. Those words could have come from my father :-) I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time. In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about what was happening in the real world of Electronics. An engineer at a client hung up his hat and became a fulltime teacher. Taking a 50% cut in income, he said that this was his way of giving back to society. Hats off to the guy, that takes guts. Especially since he's got four kids to bring through college. I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE. I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
|
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:45:19 GMT, Joerg wrote: Michael A. Terrell wrote: Joerg wrote: David Brown wrote: [...] Americans prefer do do most of their work when they are younger and stronger, some so they can retire early and enjoy life, but others How well do your pension schemes support that? (I'm thinking of your average man in the street here, who is unable or unwilling to save significantly for the future, rather than engineers and other higher income people). People who live frugally have no problem with that. Besides social security pensions we have other methods with tax benefits. Of course people who squander their money, buy every new gadget, eat fast food all the time and never repair anything themselves will often find themselves never being able to really retire. However, those problems are self-inflicted. America does not take away the decision making by withholding a large chunk of people's income for a pension. As a comparison, here it's roughly 12% (that doesn't include the medical part) while in Germany it is AFAIK around 19% now. Different philosophy, and I like the one here in the US better. because they enjoy working. Doing something you love, and getting paid for it? It is a VERY hard to beat combination. :) Agreed. The president at one of my clients is in his 80's and seriously enjoys work. Nothing seems to be able to slow him down. I know someone who once took a week's holiday during his 60-odd years of working life, but said he didn't like it. Those words could have come from my father :-) I always used my vacation time to do projects around the house, or travel to a hamfest. I rarely took more than a few days at a time, and at several jobs i was threatened with losing my accumulated time. In the last years before I became disabled, I took them by volunteering as a mentor at a vocational school in their electronics department. It gave the students a chance to ask real questions about what was happening in the real world of Electronics. An engineer at a client hung up his hat and became a fulltime teacher. Taking a 50% cut in income, he said that this was his way of giving back to society. Hats off to the guy, that takes guts. Especially since he's got four kids to bring through college. I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE. I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-) This kind of bureaucratic nonsense happens all the time. Jim (RSTEngineering) might be able to give you some pointers how to get in. I hope that by the time I reach your age our church's school will be big enough that we could offer electronics classes for college kids. No bureaucrats in the way there. If it's free all you have to do is broadcast when and where it's happening and I'd think they'll come. Just imagine: Engineers who learn some real stuff again. What a concept. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
"Don Bowey" wrote in message
... On 9/10/07 2:36 PM, in article , "Jim Thompson" wrote: I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE. I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-) They don't deserve you or the ;-). I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect of academia today. |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Joel Kolstad wrote:
I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE. I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-) They don't deserve you or the ;-). I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect of academia today. Start your own classes. All you need is a room with basic media equipment, preferably something you can plug into a laptop. Sometimes a local church can help out, and no, you do not have to be a member there. For example, ours is used by the local board of realtors for that purpose. This elitist small circle thinking seems to spread. Even in IEEE it has come to the point where some people do not like to publish there anymore because they made the access so expensive that only members of one particular society inside IEEE can read it, plus people at academic institutes. IOW the audience is so small that you might as well self-publish on the web which costs almost nothing. What they all must realize is that pretty soon knowledge acquisition will become free of charge. No stupid license rule or accreditation is going to hold up that steamroller. It's coming, right here on the Internet. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:41:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote: Joel Kolstad wrote: I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE. I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-) They don't deserve you or the ;-). I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect of academia today. Start your own classes. All you need is a room with basic media equipment, preferably something you can plug into a laptop. Sometimes a local church can help out, and no, you do not have to be a member there. For example, ours is used by the local board of realtors for that purpose. This elitist small circle thinking seems to spread. Even in IEEE it has come to the point where some people do not like to publish there anymore because they made the access so expensive that only members of one particular society inside IEEE can read it, plus people at academic institutes. IOW the audience is so small that you might as well self-publish on the web which costs almost nothing. What they all must realize is that pretty soon knowledge acquisition will become free of charge. No stupid license rule or accreditation is going to hold up that steamroller. It's coming, right here on the Internet. Let's hope. It seems that every time I want to see a paper, it's not in my "profile" of IEEE subscriptions. I come up for renewal soon. I think I'm going to give them a large public dump ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:41:44 -0700, Joerg wrote: Joel Kolstad wrote: I've volunteered to teach at the community college level, for FREE. I was turned down because I don't have a teaching certificate ;-) They don't deserve you or the ;-). I agree with Don. Whoever "evalulated" your application was doing the students a great disservice by rejecting you. This is an unfortunate aspect of academia today. Start your own classes. All you need is a room with basic media equipment, preferably something you can plug into a laptop. Sometimes a local church can help out, and no, you do not have to be a member there. For example, ours is used by the local board of realtors for that purpose. This elitist small circle thinking seems to spread. Even in IEEE it has come to the point where some people do not like to publish there anymore because they made the access so expensive that only members of one particular society inside IEEE can read it, plus people at academic institutes. IOW the audience is so small that you might as well self-publish on the web which costs almost nothing. What they all must realize is that pretty soon knowledge acquisition will become free of charge. No stupid license rule or accreditation is going to hold up that steamroller. It's coming, right here on the Internet. Let's hope. It seems that every time I want to see a paper, it's not in my "profile" of IEEE subscriptions. I come up for renewal soon. I think I'm going to give them a large public dump ;-) Every year I am thinking about that, too, same with VDE. But then I try another round. The library is a huge sore spot with IEEE. Luckily much is available outside. It just takes a little longer. Then again 5 mins on Google are a better investment than spending $30+ on a paper where you don't even know whether it'll be useful because they only give you the abstract to look at. Plus I usually find something interesting while searching, often more valuable than the text I had been looking for. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg
wrote: It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the window. Poof. Gone. But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and refreshing, so it's well worth it. John |
Productivity
John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg wrote: It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the window. Poof. Gone. But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and refreshing, so it's well worth it. That's ok if you walk and they make a product you can't easily make by yourself. However, most people out here buy regular coffee at the drive-through. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:45:46 GMT, Joerg
wrote: John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg wrote: It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the window. Poof. Gone. But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and refreshing, so it's well worth it. That's ok if you walk and they make a product you can't easily make by yourself. However, most people out here buy regular coffee at the drive-through. I noticed that on my last trip back East. Long lines of idling cars and trucks at the Dunkin Donuts takeout window, even in great weather. It was a lot faster to park (lots of empty spaces) and walk in, plus you got to see the selections of goodies, and tune your coffee just right, and sit at a table and enjoy the view (of long lines of idling cars and trucks.) The Boston Creme donut is especially good. DD whups Krispy Kreme hands down. Mo has finally finished her workout, and showered, and fed the various beasts, so we're off to Delessio now. Latte and bread pudding for breakfast, maybe. John |
Productivity
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:45:46 GMT, Joerg wrote: John Larkin wrote: On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 -0700, Joerg wrote: It's the same with coffee. Our coffee in the morning is made right here and costs less than $1. Enough for two coffee drinkers. Can be had here in the office or poured into a thermos for the road. Others drive by a coffee place every morning and then it's $3-$4 for a latte. Each. Do that 20 times a month for two people and, voila, the next $140 out the window. Poof. Gone. But my morning latte greatly increases my electronic design productivity, and the brisk walk to Delessio is healthy and refreshing, so it's well worth it. That's ok if you walk and they make a product you can't easily make by yourself. However, most people out here buy regular coffee at the drive-through. I noticed that on my last trip back East. Long lines of idling cars and trucks at the Dunkin Donuts takeout window, even in great weather. It was a lot faster to park (lots of empty spaces) and walk in, plus you got to see the selections of goodies, and tune your coffee just right, and sit at a table and enjoy the view (of long lines of idling cars and trucks.) Same in New York. Except that coffee is called "cuophy" out there. The Boston Creme donut is especially good. DD whups Krispy Kreme hands down. I don't like either. Too much sugar. AFAICT Krispy ain't doing too well right now. Mo has finally finished her workout, and showered, and fed the various beasts, so we're off to Delessio now. Latte and bread pudding for breakfast, maybe. I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. No syrup though, kicked that habit more than a decade ago. Might have to camp in a hotel at a client for a while soon, I hope I am able to moderate such cholesterol intake. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity - Norway leads the table.
Joerg wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote: I come up for renewal soon. I think I'm going to give them a large public dump ;-) Every year I am thinking about that, too, same with VDE. But then I try another round. The library is a huge sore spot with IEEE. Luckily much is available outside. It just takes a little longer. Then again 5 mins on Google are a better investment than spending $30+ on a paper where you don't even know whether it'll be useful because they only give you the abstract to look at. Plus I usually find something interesting while searching, often more valuable than the text I had been looking for. I dumped IEEE more than a decade ago... and it was over pretty much the same issue. I found it was easier, and cheaper to head off to a university library, and peruse the stacks. I miss some of the journals that used to head my way, but I sure don't miss the cost of getting IEEE Rectum, and membership to the half-dozen societies that interested me. -Chuck |
Productivity
flipper wrote:
In Australia, there used to be a sales tax, on sales. Then they changed it to a "goods and services tax" which also applied to services. The tax on sales went down from 22% to 10% I believe, whereas the tax on repair services went from 0% to 10% as far as I know. In both cases I am not mentioning the income tax and indirect taxes that also apply. The government did have some freedom to change the relative tax cost of manufacturing and repair, and they changed it, in the direction that discouraged repair. If you had some data indicating there was a flourishing 'repair' industry that vanished overnight when taxed the same as everything else then you might have a point but, IMO, you're tilting at windmills trying to achieve your 'real' goal of 'reviving' a service that is just plain not economical in light of replacement costs. I think that tax was only a small factor. A much more important factor is the difference in the wages paid in different countries. I think that in the long term, this wage disparity will be difficult to maintain, especially after the point when our standard of education is overtaken. I take it you consider the 'and services' tax to be 'unfair' Not more unfair than tax in general, just that it creates undesirable incentives. but that gets back to my original comment about what makes 'repair' labor so special vs the labor of making the things to begin with? Nothing other than which country it happens in. Btw, where does it stop? I mean, if the 'repair' industry is worthy of special consideration then surely there are other industries/products that we can manipulate taxes to either encourage or discourage and induce that pesky rabble called the 'public' to do what we want. Chucking a $40 microwave oven because the light bulb has blown would almost certainly be the economically cheaper option for the average householder who isn't confident taking a screwdriver to the relevant cover. Obviously if wages were the same in the country where the consumer lives and country where the microwave oven was built, then (a) we wouldn't have $40 microwave ovens and (b) it would be cheaper to pay someone to replace the light bulb than buy a new microwave oven. I would not propose any intervention that goes so far as to preserve any industries that would not be worthwhile if wages all over the world were similar. Chris |
Productivity
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg
wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? John |
Productivity
John Larkin wrote: Joerg wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? What does crushed stone taste like ? Graham |
Productivity
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:31:01 -0700, John Larkin
wrote: On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? John The first grits I ever ate were in Huntsville, Alabama, in the early '60's. All breakfast orders came with grits. A waitress with a German accent told me, in no uncertain terms, "Now honey, eat your grits" ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave |
Productivity
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back loads of bacon from vacation trips. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:00:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote: John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back loads of bacon from vacation trips. I like smoked pork chops (Kassler). Fortunately there's a large German population around here and really good ones are not too hard to find. Also Spaetzle. Just not too often. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
Productivity
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? John Grits! Plain grits. Grits with butter. Grits with syrup. Grits with brown sugar. Grits with ketchup (eewwww :-( ) Grits!! You made me HUNGRY! Ed |
Productivity
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:00:17 -0700, Joerg wrote: John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back loads of bacon from vacation trips. I like smoked pork chops (Kassler). Fortunately there's a large German population around here and really good ones are not too hard to find. Also Spaetzle. Just not too often. Yep, delicious. But watch them kidneys if you eat Kassler a lot. We use to make our own Spaetzle. Pressed through a large tool called "Spaetzle-Schwob" which requires lots of biceps and endurance. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
Productivity
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:21:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote: Spehro Pefhany wrote: On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:00:17 -0700, Joerg wrote: John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg wrote: I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? I grew up in the country. In Europe, but they have similar foods, just different names. For example I think polenta comes really close. Then when you move to another place in the world like the US in my case you start liking some local foods a lot. This is why I used to bring back loads of bacon from vacation trips. I like smoked pork chops (Kassler). Fortunately there's a large German population around here and really good ones are not too hard to find. Also Spaetzle. Just not too often. Yep, delicious. But watch them kidneys if you eat Kassler a lot. We use to make our own Spaetzle. Pressed through a large tool called "Spaetzle-Schwob" which requires lots of biceps and endurance. Do these look like good ones: http://www.loewen-urbach.de/swabian_spaetzle_maker.html Is the Schaumloeffel necessary or can you just use a strainer as for pasta? Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
Productivity
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:31:01 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:33 GMT, Joerg I prefer the hearty kind of the All American breakfast. Eggs, bacon, sausages, potatoes, grits. Grits! I love grits. But where did you pick up that habit? I first had grits in the Chow Hall at Shaw AFB, Sumter, SC. The southern boys got a kick out of watching the carpetbaggers put cream and sugar on their grits, as if it was cream-of-wheat. I learned early on that they're supposed to get lots of butter, salt and pepper. ;-) And, has anyone heard the old joke about the Yankee who just arrives in the South, and at a restaurant, he decides to try some. He says, "And some grits". Waitress asks, "Hominy?" Customer says, "Oh, I don't know - five or six, maybe?" Cheers! Rich |
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