On 27 Aug 2005 05:45:27 -0700, wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 27 Aug 2005 03:23:41 -0700, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:

- Cut the pipe clean and square using a tubing cutter and not a
hacksaw

I don't buy this. When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw
and trimmed of the pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine
as the pipe indert isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being
pushed on the pipe. For a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care,
and all is fine.



He said exactly the same and ended up
with a flood.

If I recall rightly he never had a flood, he had a faulty Speedfit
fitting and informed the group to beware.

That's what he *said*.

Well I believe him.

I can imagine that.


However, many people here have used Speedfit
and other brands of push fit fitting both on a DIY and professional
basis with no problems at all,

A look at other plumbing forums will tell that is also bunkum. One
thread here has a list of the forums. There are numerous reports over
the years of failed plastic fittings of all makes.

His assertion was that Speedfit products were always crap because he
had a bad experience after fitting one without following the
instructions. This simply isn't true.




therefore one is much more likely to
believe that it was operator error.

Or maybe a faulty fitting. The plumbing forums report many of these.

There can be manufacturing defects in any product. This is not the
same thing as claining that a product is bad when you don't do what
the manufacturer says.



Do you seriously believe that a
manufacturer is going to take any notice of somebody running into a
problem with a product when they choose to ignore the instructions.?

You appear to be confused.

I'm not in the least bit confused. The manufacturer's instructions
(from several manufacturers) are completely clear as well.

A defective fitting is clear, as it is
defective. Someone cutting a plastic pipe not square and leaving burred
edges is entirely poor craftsmanship.

It is also doing what the manufacturers explicitly say not to do.


I can get a clean square burr
free cut on a plastic pipe, as good as my pipe cutter, using other
tools. It will take a lot more time and care, yet entirely possible.

Wonderful but irrelevent.


BTW, I Googled IMMs original post and he said that the O ring dislodged
as the pipe was being pushed through as the fitting was defective.

So he believes. I don't believe him, given his admission that he cut
the pipe with a hacksaw.


This
has no connection with a burred edge. That happened to me once using a
Hep2O fitting. You can feel after a time whether the pipe is fully home
of something is wrong. I disassembled the fitting, slipped the nut on
the pipe, then the grab ring and slipped the O ring over the pipe, then
slipping on the body of the fitting, screwed up and then pushed hard.
It held.

..... and the point is?



Have you ever done much plastic pipework? It is clear you have
not.

How would you know? In fact I have, quite a bit, as have many other
people, quite successfully in this NG.


I use plastic pipe a lot as I do all the plumbing work on my
renovations. I found plumbers not very good, very expensive and stuck
in the past, with most wanting to slap in tanks everywhere with exposed
pipes. Over the past 7 years my skills have grown to as good as theirs.

Lovely, but not really relevent.




I take notice of this sort of
advice as I don't want problems when I fit pipes. I want to avoid
problem products and areas.

Exactly. If you use a pipe cutter, the problems can be avoided.

IMMs reported problem was not the cutting of the pipe, it was a
defective fitting. You can't seem to understand this.

I understand his *claim* perfectly. Given the circumstances of not
folowing the instructions, I simply don't believe him.


If many reports
emerge of defects with one maker then that is a make to avoid.

In this NG, they don't.




Most, if not all of the plastic plumbing manufacturers explicitly tell
you not to use a hacksaw.

To the OP. That is bunkum.


The manufacturers take a different view.

Please refer to:

http://www.johnguest.com/makeconnect.asp

http://www.hep2o.co.uk/v2Opipecutting1.cfm

It was Hepworth who said on this actual forum that a cutter is not
essential.

That is not what they said at all. They said:

"We do recommend the use of a Hep2O pipe cutter, however any pipe
cutter
designed to cut plastics pipes should be suitable. One of the major
advantages of a purpose designed cutter is speed, however the
requirements
for the cutter are that it should cut the tube square without scoring
or
scratching the pipe or leaving burrs or swarf which could get under
the 'O'
ring. It is for this reason that hacksaws should not be used.

The inventive can find many ways of achieving a perfectly acceptable
clean, square cut using a variety of tools. "


The only recommendation is to use a cutter, and that is the point.








They are right, as anyone with care can produce a square
clean cut on a plastic pipe without spending a lot of money on a
special pipe cutter.

One doesn't need to spend a lot of money on a special pipe cutter. For
a few joints, a £5 is perfectly good and will cut a clean square end
according to the manufacturers instructions.

Steve, the OP, only wants to fit an outside tap.
If he took your ill advice, he would buy a £15 cutter not to be used
again.

How can advice in accordance with what the manufacturer says be ill
advice? He does not need to buy a £15 cutter - a £5 is perfectly
good for the job.




http://tinyurl.com/959q9 (refers to Osma Gold)

http://www.equator.co.uk/newwebsite/...on_making.html

I have made lots of joints using a hacksaw
to cut plastic pipe. Hepworth on this actual group told everyone that a
plastic pipe cutter is not needed, and other tools can be used if care
is taken.

What they *actually* said was:

"We do recommend the use of a Hep2O pipe cutter, however any pipe
cutter designed to cut plastics pipes should be suitable. One of the
major advantages of a purpose designed cutter is speed, however the
requirements for the cutter are that it should cut the tube square
without scoring or scratching the pipe or leaving burrs or swarf which
could get under the 'O' ring. It is for this reason that hacksaws
should not be used.

The inventive can find many ways of achieving a perfectly acceptable
clean, square cut using a variety of tools. "

This does not read to me as being an endorsement to use a hacksaw.

It does to me.

It doesn't to anybody else.


The last sentence says it all.

In effect it says that if you want to bodge, then you can. The other
paragraph explains how the job should be done properly.


I have got perfect pipe
ends not using a plastic pipe cutter. Cut it square and use other tools
to trim it off. Unfortunately I couldn't find any other way to cut
the pipe without using a hacksaw. It would be nice if Hepworth could
expand on that sentence and name the "variety of tools".

It's a throwaway remark and not a recommendation that the user should
do anything other than use a cutter.

The rest of the information, *and* the instructions, and (it appears)
every other manufacturer's instructions say *DO* use a pipe cutter,
*DON'T* use a hacksaw. It really couldn't be any clearer.



Maybe they
know another method of cutting the pipe without a hacksaw and plastic
pipe cutter.

They probably do. If they thought it had any merit, they and other
vendors would say so in their literature. They don't. There is a
clue there......




I did manage to cut some plastic using a new copper pipe
cutter once. As soon as the wheel dulled it was not possible.

Even worse because it mangles the end of the pipe.



This getting all silly. Achieving a perfectly square cut on a plastic
pipe is possible using various methods.

It may or may not be. THe manufacturers all tell the installer to use
a cutter, which costs about the same as a hacksaw anyway.


A plastic pipe cutter is not
essential. I have been caught without my plastic pipe cutter and each
time have managed a perfect pipe end without it. If your craft skills
are not good enough to achieve perfect pipe end, you can't expect DIY
people to have all the skills, then for you a plastic pipe cutter is
the way. Don't assume all others do not have the skills to get a
perfect pipe end.

That's a feeble attempt to draw attention away from the main point,
which is that the manufacturers specify a way to do the job properly.
It's also something of a put down to suggest that a pipe cutter should
be used if you haven't got the skills.

So you can cut a square, clean end on a piece of pipe.... big deal; so
can I. In fact, I was doing some plastic plumbing this afternoon.
I could have used a hacksaw, a mitre saw, a pair of shears, a band
saw, a table saw and at least 10 others if I had thought about it. So
what. The £5 cutter came to hand before the £15 one, so I used it.
All ends were clean and square first time and all went into the
fittings first time with no problems at all - just as they always do.





A high quality pipe cutter is essential when doing a whole
system as they are very quick and easy. When fitting a sink unit using
a few joints they are not essential. As I have stated, make sure the
end of the pipe is square and trimmed off with a Stanley knife or fine
file. Use a mitre block to get a square cut, if you have one. The pipe
insert protects the O ring from the pipe behind it as the fitting is
pushed on.

In the case of plastic pipe, it also supports the shape of the pipe in
the fitting.

That is correct. There is only two ways that an O ring can be snagged.
The pipe is not square and the there are burred edges.

Which is why the manufacturers recommend using a cutter.

Once square and
free of burrs the pipe insert guides the O ring over the pipe edge
without any problems, as long as the pipe is well greased.





Any problems will be the O ring snagging any burr on the
pipe edge as the O ring slides over.

Which can be avoided by using the proper tools.

Or as Hepworth stated "using a variety of tools". If you can't
get a square clean burr free edge on a plastic pipe without using a
cutter you are kak handed and should not be doing pipework.

This is rubbish. Of course I *can* get a clean and square edge using
any one of at least 10 tools. Why would I bother when I can do it
quickly and easily with a £5 cutter?


As I said,
anyone with good craft skills can get a good pipe edge. You have this
obsession about using a plastic pipe cutter, nothing personal, but
probably because of poor craft skills.

Hardly. There is no obsession about using a pipe cutter at all. I
have simply pointed out that the manufacturers specify this as the
tool to use and explicitly say that a hacksaw should not be used. They
go on to say that people may well do something else. That's an
observation and nothing more.

You're trying to justify not buying a simple pipe cutter at a cost of
£5 - basically the cost of a few fittings - and this is nonsense.


Keep the pipe and fitting well
greased and twist slightly as you push. If you are only fitting a sink
unit then use high quality compression joints and copper pipes, not
plastic. Compression joints are easy to undo. Brass pushfit fittings
are difficult to undo even using the dismounting tool. The pushfit
flexible connectors can be used on copper pipe without inserts. Make
sure the copper pipe is cut with a sharp pipe cutter and no burred
edges and grease the pipe well. Do not overtighten the pipe cutter as
you turn it as this may oval the pipe. An oval pipe end may not make a
good seal with a pushfit fitting. If you do oval the pipe, push it into
a compression fitting to round it back up again.

I use a £40 gun type pipe cutter as I now use lots of
plastic pipe.

These are good, I know, but the casual user can use a £5 pipe cutter
and get a good and correct result without bodging with a hacksaw

The cheap cutters are not worth it. You may as well use a sharp axe.


For a small number of joints, they are perfectly adequate and can be
resharpened if needed or treated as disposable.

I bought one and threw it away, as it was a waste of time.

Probably because of poor craft skills I would imagine.

It left
sharp nicks in the end of the pipe. I would rather use a hacksaw,
Stanley knife and fine file, as I know I can get a better edge that
way. Don't use cheap tools, it is not worth it.


I certainly agree about not using cheap tools - I almost always buy at
or near to the top end. However, for pipe cutters for plastic
plumbing pipe a £5 cutter does as good a job (for me at least) as a
more expensive one.

I do also have a more expensive ratchet type cutter which I bought
when I needed to cut nylon pipe for compressed air use. This
material is tougher than the water pipe and it was tough going with
the £5 cutter, easy with the ratchet one.






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl